[Bob Clarkson]

Onwards and upwards was only an expression John, I could have said as one door closes another opens etc. I’m in a small town here, there is no real opportunity for a sign company here in the way there would be in the larger towns and cities a lot of your companies are based in.

I loved the trade, writing shopfront, on site in the summer, writing vans and seeing all my work driving around. I was a kid when I first started doing this, I assumed it would be my job for life. But it couldn’t be as the area is now flooded with sign makers, double what’s possibly needed, so no one can make a decent living, I don’t mean millions, I just mean a decent living.

I am starting to read these through a bit more carefully before I post as I have to accept they can seem aggressive.

[Bob Clarkson]

I didn’t mean to offend or infer anything, I’m quite happy to say what I mean.

I nearly mentioned Dave Smith, but couldn’t remember the name. If you read it or remember some of the posts with regards to that, I actually said it was amazing and that when he’d said he was one of only a few in the country who could do that, I suggested he corrected it to the only one who could.

I consider I can write and layout as well as the best of them, but I wouldn’t even dare compare myself to him. If I hadn’t seen the clip I’d have assumed it impossible.

If It was read as everyone was great then, and now they’re all rubbish, I didn’t mean it to, and it obviously wouldn’t be true.

I can coach line, I can paint, layout and I can do vinyl lettering, I’m not saying that makes me brilliant. I can’t use sign making software to save my life, I wouldn’t have a clue how to use a large format printer, I’ve never done a wrap and I have to wait for the kids to come home from school to sort my PC out.

I’ve emailed back

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ll post a couple of bits, then maybe you’ll get an idea what I’m meaning. You may also consider the layouts are all done with a vision and a piece of chalk.

I accept pretty much all I do other than the odd Rolls Royce coach lining these days is cut out sticky letters, so really I’m no different, but you cannot compare vinyls laid out on a screen to traditional writing with regards to being a craftsman.

Still you obviously found it necessary to attempt to rip my posting to shreds, so I obviously hit a nerve somewhere.

[Bob Clarkson]

That’s about the size of it. I made one nearly 20yrs ago for the local chip shop, and they still use it. Admittedly the panel has been re-done but the frame I welded up’s still going strong.

[Bob Clarkson]

I wasn’t knocking how you’d angled that Martin, I rather liked it. I may have done the other bits a little different, but that would have been my style, and not because I thought you were wrong.

I’ve been doing signs 30yrs, and my apprenticeship was served with a true master, as was his.

I don’t really take this trade too seriously anymore, which is why I moved away from it as a main job around 12yrs ago. I figured I needed to move onwards and upward before the market became too flooded. So I totally agree with the feeling when you loose a job to a rank armature, but people don’t seem to know the difference anymore. Still it’s a fun hobby now, as oppose to a relatively non rewarding occupation..

[Bob Clarkson]

Traditionally it is frowned upon to write downwards, don’t suppose it really matters these days, it’s just a traditional/apprenticeship trained, and by that I don’t mean my boss told me it was ok, I mean craftsman won’t do it.

with regards to writing upwards, if you don’t like it, you don’t like it, but if the rest of the layout reflects why you’ve done it, it will balance. That is the key, and that’s why it usually looks bad, people don’t necessarily understand when you need to do it.

The craft of layout has all but been lost in my opinion. Don’t get me wrong, there’s some really beautiful work done these days, but it’s far from the majority.

[Bob Clarkson]

I realise I can know nothing Rob, but I’m also guessing despite this you didn’t read my first post, the bit that included something along the lines of " I have a friend who has everything you could ever need"

The point to this, on the front of advise is, not everyone will get on with the same equipment as each other, some will like towers, some trestles, some ladders etc. I personally use all three, depending on what I’m doing.

My friend has thousands and thousands of pounds of this type of equipment, truthfully impractical for a signmaker to own, especially one who just going into the shop fascia line .

Advise would be consider if it’s worth subbing all the fitting (that isn’t just a quick ladder of steps job) out to someone who is capable, reliable and reasonable person, who already has the equipment needed. That way you don’t spend time you could be earning proper money messing about drilling holes, basic work a handyman would be glad of these days!

If you don’t want to do that, see if any of your customers that you are pretty friendly have the stuff and will let you use it for the odd site board in return. There is tons of this stuff siting in builders/decorators yards and garages, often bought and seldom used.

Still not convinced, hire a few different systems over the next few jobs you get, and see what suits you, you will be the person using it,lugging it about and storing it, not to mention paying for it.

[Bob Clarkson]

quote Robert Lambie:

bob, how can you lift a sign, tools etc up a ladder and fit all at once mate. you need both hands, in fact, some case a third hand would be helpful when fitted from a ladder.

I don’t understand, I’ve fitted literally hundreds off of ladders, on to brick and wood. Why do you not have both hands free when you’re on a ladder? Despite what you’re told by Health and safety, I do nothing I personally consider I’m incapable of doing.

It’s easy to fit Panatrim profiles and foam/composite signs quite easily off ladders. I didn’t say I done it on my own either, but two people who know what they’re doing can fit an average shop fascia in the time it’d take to set the towers up.

I’ve done site work with a blind company I used to do a lot of stuff with, all the dutch blinds, both folding and fixed were done off ladder.

If you honestly don’t know, I’ll post how you do it….

[Bob Clarkson]

I would think the extent of what you buy would greatly depend on how much you were intending on using it.

It’s very unusual that I fit signs now, but a lot of stuff can be done quickly and easily off a decent set of ladders.

I either sub fitting out to a friend who has everything you could ever need, or we do the job together, split the money up but use his stuff and everyone’s happy.

Unless you’re going into this in a big way, this is the cheapest and easiest route, otherwise you’ll have to store the stuff and make sure you have a vehicle that can move it all.

[Bob Clarkson]

Like I said I know nothing about printers, and have no inclination to start. However if there really is no catch, and they don’t have literally dozens to shift and it’s a brilliant machine, wouldn’t it make sense to buy them up and corner the market on distribution.

A large sign company could credibly market them from their premises, including a demonstration facility as they’d already own one and have the knowledge. If 30k is the start price, and they were selling at that, buy the lot and sell them for 20k. That’s just basic business, remember no one gets rich from hard work…..

[Bob Clarkson]

I’m not commenting on printers, because I don’t have or want one, but I have to agree with Peter on the general concept of bargains!

A manufacturer would be pretty stupid to sell a good quality machine, that was worth 30k for 11k unless there was a fairly good reason for doing it.

If two products are of the same quality, and price is the thing that makes your mind up, a few hundred would swing it, taking two thirds of it’s cost would be pointless.

I would be rather suspicious, especially in the sign industry when a lot of distributors rely on new or inexperienced signmakers lack of knowledge or established signmakers inability to research to know exactly what they need or to be able to make calculable comparisons of products often mis-described.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve never painted foamex with it, but I’d imagine softside would work fine. It’ll stick to the plastic folding dutch blinds are make of, and it’ll stay on lorry tarps, has to work on foam.

Other than that, plasticizers and spray them.

[Bob Clarkson]

That really does look good, one of those stand back and admire your work moments.

[Bob Clarkson]

I wasn’t being that specific. It was just the cutter I wanted had over a 30% variation in price between the cheapest and the dearest for the exact same machine.

We are going into a buyers market, that’s for sure, even today I paid £400 for a £725 rrp washing machine, admittedly average price was around £600 though, and got the delivery and removal thrown in. No doubting there are bargains to be had, just at who’s ultimate expense in the question.

[Bob Clarkson]

I know nothing much about these printers, but I do know rrp prices are something no one ever pays, and the rrp prices will vary, even though they technically can’t!

But as the saying goes, if something’s to good to be true, it probably is..

[Bob Clarkson]

Funny you should say that, but I’m going to admit to something really stupid I done some years ago.

I used to smoke, and had no cigarette lighter in my car of matches/lighter on me. I figured if I drove really fast I’d be able to get the turbo hot enough to light a cigarette off it. This, by the way doesn’t work, but don’t be stupid enough to put your finger on it to see how hot it does get 😳

[Bob Clarkson]

I think it’d be worth trying a couple to find out. I can honestly say I’ve never touched mine after I’ve been driving hard, but I’ve had it so you can smell the brakes and I’ve cooked the pads in the past.

Next time I need a "P" and realise I’ve almost missed the lay-by, subsequently leading to panic and emergency braking, I’ll feel the caliper the second I get out the car. :lol1:

[Bob Clarkson]

I understand the concept of putting the tape under the vinyl to protect the paint, but I’m not up to speed on what you’d be doing to need to do it. I’m guessing wraps, which as you know, I don’t do.

I only ever use those little blades, I don’t use scalpels, I can hold the razor blade as I would a lining quill, I can actually draw with one.

[Bob Clarkson]

Take no notice of this, it posted twice 😳

[Bob Clarkson]

I don’t exactly make it a habit to cut onto paintwork, and will my hardest to avoid bridging door caps and body seams so I don’t have to. But you’d have to be pretty heavy handed to actually damage the paint. I’ve always used the old fashioned everyready type razor blade that are still available from snap-on. I use them purely between my finger tips so I can feel exactly what I’m doing.

[Bob Clarkson]

Very nice, it shows you can do well balanced work as well as really cool stuff. Just what you need to get customers, couldn’t be better.

[Bob Clarkson]

I have to agree with that Stuart, and unless you’re intending to turn it into a company and employ at least a couple of people you’ll probably be financially better off working out of a double garage.

It is cheaper to have a stunning house, with double garage and a pool, than a modest home and a large rented unit. You also get to keep and enjoy the house, units are only for when vast expansion makes it unavoidable in my book, but then you take on a load more risks.

[Bob Clarkson]

I wouldn’t trouble to look any further, the one Jill has done more than makes the grade. I would only alter it by taking the black cross away completely as I feel it makes it look a little Satanic.

[Bob Clarkson]

I had a new Toyota truck to write recently, (and I’d not seen one already written) I took a good long look at all the body line to be sure I’d got it right, it really does have quite a complex set of body lines. I took the time, (truthfully about half hour as I’ve been doing this a while) to figure how it should be done. The same format will work on any subsequent trucks, so it’s worth the effort.

About a week after this, I saw another one that had been written, they’d measured from the floor, ignored every line and it looked rubbish, but the customer was probably none the wiser. When this happen, and it happens a lot, it really doesn’t seem to matter anymore.

I know wraps are stunning, and some of the effects that are possible now are amazing, but layouts were significantly better 50yrs ago. Technology has moved boundries, craftmanship has plumeted.

This is in no way meant specific to any-ones work, but Google some old fashioned sign work before you tell me I’m wrong.

[Bob Clarkson]

Amari have just cut me 150 300mm x 75mm boards out of 6mm foam with no cutting charge, and I got the delivered, along with so others bit next day but one.

One job I did some time ago had a ridiculous amount of cutting, that cost me an additional £15. Why would anyone use any other option or company when the answer is this simple.

[Bob Clarkson]

I guess most proper companies could, but Amari defiantly can.

They may stick a few quid on for doing it, but it’s never bad. I had thousands of 3mm boards cut about post card size once.

[Bob Clarkson]

Without this sounding too offensive, to me a good 20% of vans written the writer has used the wrong lines and subsequently achieved a bad balance.

As a signwriter, a lot of training is put into layouts, and which bodyline or angle to do lettering as a mistake in paint is far more of a problem than peeling a few letters off. It would be interesting to see what percentage of vans others believe are simply wrong.

[Bob Clarkson]

Based on that you’re well in the clear and his insurance will pay, hopefully you should get to do new sign a new sign out of this. Assuming he bothers to claim that is, either way he’ll need something done.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve done a fair bit of this stuff. Chalkline, Roadline paint’ and it’s easier to do the lettering in compacta if you’re not a signwriter. I’ve marked out massive car parks, and done plenty of "Have a nice day" "please call again" type stuff in numerous restaurant entrances etc. I’ve also maked lots of the post office depots in chalk for decorators to paint in, so it can’t be hard.

This is one of those jobs people assume is difficult and shy away from, I’ve been collected and driven over 150 mile to mark out car parks, and that really is ridiculous.

[Bob Clarkson]

The easiest way to tell if it’s right, is the fact it’s really obvious when it’s wrong. That said, there’s a lot of vans driving about where the wrong line has been used as a start point, or letters are at different angles all over it.

Some of the newer vans seem to be designed to make our job harder, often running body lines through the writing areas, what looks right is ultimately what matters.

[Bob Clarkson]

quote Peter Normington:

It depends, sale of goods comes down to fit for purpose.
warranty does not come into it
A sign would be expected to last for a certain time, based on cost and industry standards, Wind damage for insurance purposes have specific standards, insurance will normally only pay out if a certain windforce, above normal for the area, has been recorded by the met office.
If your sign was the only one in the area to get blown down, then the customer may have a good argument that it was made/constructed/fitted wrongly.
How much did you charge for the sign is the first question.
and are you confident it was made to withstand “average” weather conditions?
is the second.
just a few things to consider

Peter

That is absolutely spot on Peter, basic home insurance works the same way! The only one I ever had come down too the front panel of the shop with it, I took no responsibility for that as my sign was still attached to it.

Just a quick addition, it’s more likely that the insurance company won’t pay out if the fitting is wrong/poor. But if the fitting is good, which I’m sure it is, and numerous other people have had the same problems in the same area, the shops insurance will pick up the bill.

[Bob Clarkson]

I absolutely love the appearance, and appreciate the skill and craft of a beautiful graining job. I’ve only ever seen it done to this standard by yourself, and the guy I done my apprenticeship with, I only wish he’d taught me the more specifics of graining as I’d have loved to be able to do it, to this type of standard.

If you were a bit closer, I think we’d be working a plan for you to do every door in my house.

[Bob Clarkson]

I know British Rail used the excuse "Wrong sort of snow" but " the snow was a bit cold this year", doubt we’ll get away with than as an excuse when a customer complains (chat.)

The more Mediterranean snow should as you say be a lot kinder on the vinyl, lot warmer on your hands cleaning it off the windscreen in the mornings too. :lol1:

[Bob Clarkson]

What is assume it is in screenwash that stops it from freezing, it’s all much of a muchness. Sustained periods of snow cover can affect vinyl, but usually only if it’s on porous surface such as foamboards, and even then it’d need to be buried in it to get the temps low enough. Also remember many low grade vinyls don’t have the temperature tolerance of quality films.

If it were purely snow, Alaska, Switzerland, Austria ect would have no lettering left on anything. Irrespective of any other causes or factors de-icer takes vinyls off.

[Bob Clarkson]

Have to agree, it would indicated too much blade weight, but I’d have thought the amount of excessive weight needed to go right through the release finish would have come to light when you weeded it before sending it out. If it were cut that aggressively, I’d imagine it’d even feel different when handled after cutting. The fact you’ve done loads of these before and never had a problem, must indicate something’s amiss

If the sticker will peel nicely from the backing once the backing is torn away, it has to be weight, if it doesn’t, they could possibly have gotten damp.

[Bob Clarkson]

It was obvious we’d sell them off, they were brilliant things, the government could never allow us to have anything that good without selling deciding to somewhere else.

[Bob Clarkson]

Slightly away from what you’ve asked for, but in refits, especially in high end properties, it’d be nice to think the contractors won’t be chucking paint up the windows.

All we’ve ever done, and that’s only on occasion, is tape the whole window off with brown paper when taking ceilings down or cutting in doorways etc, so it doesn’t get heavy grit on it that could possibly scratch if wiped, and with that I mean the frames. There is also a consideration of what could finish up with the hinges etc if the window opened.

I know it’s a job you’ve been asked to do, so this is not your concern, but I’d be pretty scared if I’d employed contractors I though could even damage the glass 😮

If you must do it, I’d use the packing film Peter suggested, anything else will potentially cause more hassle than it’s saved when it needs removing…

Quick edit, just looked up Tempscreen, guess it’s that, but it is only designed to block out people looking it, but I can’t imaging anything would be made to protect something as hard as glass, other than for security.

[Bob Clarkson]

Why is there a problem bonding edge to face with foam?? I’ll stick edge to edge and face to face, face to edge works just the same.

I’d probably do the return in 10mm to give a good strong bond, and to make it less flexible and remain upright when trying to bond it etc, but I’d be amazed if anyone could have a problem building it out of foam.

The amount you need and the size they are, just get the suppliers to cut the whole lot to size including the rebate and it’ll be a piece of cake.

[Bob Clarkson]

A 3 way step ladder works fine, I’ve used then for decorating on a few occasions, needed especially when doing high stairways.

Just edited this as we’d posted at the same time Peter, have to admit the one you have is a lot better thing than the basic one I’ve got.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve always loved those things since seeing, and hearing one when I was a kid. I’d so love to go up in one, but doubt I’ll ever get a chance. I really would pay a premium for half hour or so in one.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve not bought any in years, but William Cox used to deal in it.

Just a thought, but is it an option to use a composite or thinner foam and bond a strip to the edge to create the illusion of 25MM board but save on the cost and weight??

[Bob Clarkson]

I love the stuff on the link John’s posted, makes me think I need a pool table just as an excuse to get a print made 😎

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve been doing this 25yrs, and designed masses of logos etc, and fully agree. Customers view it as part of the whole job with us, but will pay way over the top for a often badly proportioned logo from a design house. They are often disproportionate because they don’t seem to realise down-scaling a drawing works better than up-scaling.

Not of late, but I have designed stuff for graphic designers and earned more than I could get away with even after they’ve taken a cut.

[Bob Clarkson]

It won’t work, it’ll just ruin the table, I’ve worked with that type of stuff before on exhibition work.

Airbrush is an option, it’ll still ruin it as a pool table, but it will look reasonable.

The only way it could be done properly is for it to be dyed during manufacture, and even then it’d probably distort when fitted.

[Bob Clarkson]

The life of working for someone, getting paid holidays, being paid even if we weren’t that busy, not having all the responsibility really appealed to me. Trouble is, it’s not in my nature to conform so it would have been impossible for me to work for anyone.

I’m not even that easy to work with, but when I find people who can work with me, we always get on and achieve a great deal as I’ll never push anyone harder than I’ll push myself.

Success isn’t about business and money though, it’s about family and being happy and content.

[Bob Clarkson]

I have to agree Phill, the only way I’d even consider going into wrapping is if I had a massive high ceiling workshop with a ramp in the middle. Crawling on the floor really isn’t that appealing to me.

[Bob Clarkson]

I either weld up basic ones myself, or if I want something a bit elaborate, I use a local guy who makes weather vanes. Anyone who can make a good weather vane can make a brilliant swing sign bracket.

But as Kevin says, wrought iron worker, steel fabricator, they’ll all be able to do it.

[Bob Clarkson]

I run three core business, I run one of my businesses as a technician, one as a hands on manager, and one as an entrepreneur. I have to have some of all three elements in all the things I do, but sometimes if you try and do all tree elements in full you’ll bog yourself down and won’t achieve much at all.

I’m fortunate to have a few very smart friends, and a seriously clued up missus to help pick up the pieces when I have a "slightly off the wall plans" that I am passionate about. I’m certainly not as brave as I was with regards to risk taking because I have responsibilities, but it’s still quite a buzz on occasion.

[Bob Clarkson]

There’s some very valid points here, and some very different outlooks.

I’ve never really considered myself lucky, lucky is when something is handed to you on a plate, or you win it. Have to agree though, the whole inflated rents and house prices doesn’t really help anyone in the big picture, people just don’t see it, greed steps in. Things were a lot nicer 20yrs ago buying, renting and working, fair reward for a fair days work.

The situation/set-up Colin has is pretty much exactly what I think, have and do. Totally agree with Stephen and Earl. David and Warren’s are what’s best for them at this time. All I’m saying is, be careful, we can all make mistakes, and I’ve seen a fair few of my customers get it wrong and it’s not pretty.

[Bob Clarkson]

David, that’s very true houses are likely to loose that amount of money over the next few years.

But if you have 30k in equity, you can only release it if you sell in one form or another. You only loose if you sell with the market low, and don’t buy in the same economic market, otherwise it’s just numbers not money.

some of my properties have been paid for two and three times over by renters over a period of years, and I still have these particular properties earning me money every day, plus I still have their asset value. Trust me, it’s far better from this side. I wouldn’t even rent a lock-up garage.

[Bob Clarkson]

That’s it in a nutshell Robert.

[Bob Clarkson]

I don’t want to ask personal questions, so I don’t expect or want an answer.

Rent is total loss, and the landlord probably won’t want you working from his house either. Personal circumstances dictate a whole manner of justifications, but selling and using equity, then renting seems a very strange and risky route.

Please don’t think I’m prying, it’s just that I’ve dealt in property over 20yrs and all you’ll be doing is working hard to make someone else easy money..

[Bob Clarkson]

I only have one diesel vehicle at the moment, and the amount of fuel we use is negligible, so I wouldn’t chance it.

I buy my vehicles, so I wouldn’t take the risk of potential problems to save a couple of quid, but if I leased I’d be down there filling the thing up right now 😎

[Bob Clarkson]

If you tell them you’ve got 30k, I don’t think there’s going to be too many grants available, might be best not to mention that bit. 🙄

[Bob Clarkson]

At the risk of this sounding cliched, don’t give up your day job!!

This is not meant derogatory in any way, it’s just start-up business can take a little while before it starts making livable income. 9k is not a terrifying outlay considering the potential income if and when it all starts going well, but that can take a bit of time.
Work from the garage, evenings and weekends for at least 6mnts to make sure it’s going to work out. After this, you can work out how much more work you can do by having a unit etc, and whether the amount of money you will earn will cover and justify the cost of the unit. Many companies struggle because of overheads, not necessarily lack of work or personal ability.
Don’t know the grants system at present, but years ago a few of my friends got them and it seemed to be relating to personal circumstances as opposed to blanket cover. Personally, Id have a little chat with the local council and see if they have an enterprise/partnership scheme for advise on these aspect, also your bank, accountant and the job centre has a team purely for this purpose. Remember that when being given advice most of these people have learned it out of a book and earn their money as a set wage with paid holiday, don’t take any one persons advice, (including mine!) as gospel, due to the fact there are so many variables .

[Bob Clarkson]

As John said, Bio-diesel is a product in it’s own right, not a reconstituted waste product. Thus the engine does not need to be set up to run on it, meaning you can switch or even mix fuels if Bio isn’t available when you need it.

But as Peter said, check with the manufacturer specifications, because many modern diesels are really quite complex and I could potentially cause a problem, usually with the ECU trying to figure out what’s changed.

Older diesel engines were a lot more tolerant to pouring a whole manner of things into them, but very complex modern diesels are not.

The bonus to this, is should you ever put petrol in your modern diesel engine, or diesel in your modern petrol engine, it’s far more likely to stop running before it has a chance to destroy itself.

[Bob Clarkson]

Totally agree Martin, and the type of person doesn’t want to pay for new panels is also the type that likely to complain if there’s a single imperfection.

[Bob Clarkson]

Then you’ve done exactly what they asked, but a whole lot better..

[Bob Clarkson]

I agree with the letter size, and I’ve done bowling greens and golf clubs and churches that date back to pre 1800s, but they’ve usually used a number of boards by the time we get to the present.

I’ve also back dated names on new boards to around 1875, but I usually only leave a max of around 25yrs or 25% of the board clear unless a different amount is specified by the customer so it doesn’t look bare for what is probably going to be the life time of the board.

Personally I hate painting or gilding honors boards, and unless obligated in some way will never do them. This type of work was almost a specialty of the guy I done my apprenticeship with, a true master, matching his work was neigh on impossible for the likes of me.

[Bob Clarkson]

I don’t want to sound stupid here, but why so many columns??

[Bob Clarkson]

I would only use box section when I weld up brackets, but if you’re happy to use angle you don’t need to weld anything. It’ll all bolt up fine, probably just need a cross brace that it wouldn’t need if it were welded. Depends if you can find anyone helpful and at a fair price!

[Bob Clarkson]

I don’t pay for Dell business support, and I don’t tell them how many computers I’ve bought off them etc, I’ve no need to. All I do is ask them politely to help me, I explain what the problem is and I don’t talk down to them or pretend I know more than they do. Dell support will have a vast number of knowledgeable people at their disposal when you call, ask them nicely and they are only too pleased to help.

Speak to someone as if their an idiot, and they will surely prove you right.

[Bob Clarkson]

So many local suppliers know little more than us guys, they buy in some bit’s, most probably off ebay and plug them together. Building a PC like Peter said, isn’t hard, my 15yr old built his own, it works fine. For business use though, I buy Dell, their back up on the rare occasions I’ve needed it has be 100%. If I get a problem I need it sorted straight away, local companies don’t seem that straightforward, and I’m not waiting for my boy to come home from school and fix it. Dell talk throughs have always been excellent, and on the one occasion it still wasn’t right they sent me a whole new tower, a local company won’t cough up that much equipement.

[Bob Clarkson]

Even when these things are all honest and above board, the amount that is skimmed off the top as so called expenses is sickening. I do, on occasion donate to charities and groups, but I donate items for either their own use, or to be raffled etc. This does of course mean they can only be local to me, as I’m not prepared for a single penny of my money to go to anyone other than the people I intend to have it, but I still feel I do my bit.

[Bob Clarkson]

Have to agree with Jill, vanish will generally fail before enamel, and vanish over vinyls is obviously pretty pointless. But the better quality the vinyl, the longer it’d last without problems if you must do it.

[Bob Clarkson]

It was only an option if it for some reason couldn’t be done the way Ian said, like if it were a stench pipe as oppose to a drain pipe etc. certainly not another option to an easily resolve initial problem.

I would charge out at the same price as a contractor too, it’s just if I make them I get to keep all the money, and welding and building stuff is my hobby 😎

I generally recommend a friend of mine to do the fitting, the customer pays him, and it frees me up in the process, everyone’s happy.

[Bob Clarkson]

Have to agree, Ian’s way is the nicest. Unless for some reason you can’t do that, it’s by far the answer.

Another option is weld up some stand off brackets, then it looks like the sign is floating, if you can’t do that yourself it’ll start getting expensive though.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve written on what is basically caravan thickness aluminum, and if the fitting is done well that is perfect to at least 8’x4′. I also wrote the signs for a powder coating company, and they supplied everything ready for me to write, it was about 3mm thick and made an absolutely beautiful finished job

It has to expand, it’s metal, but I can’t imagine it ever being a problem on a sign.

[Bob Clarkson]

Nice stuff, lovely balance and perfect for that type of shop. There is something nice about doing brushwork when you don’t have to.

I only do signs part time now, and it makes it enjoyable as oppose to a job, I actually look forward to writing a shop or a van, where I was starting to hate doing it 7 days a week.

[Bob Clarkson]

Em, nasty stuff. How many years in to the future of England was this?? 😥

[Bob Clarkson]

My Mrs was a distance runner, who now rides and trains horses. She’s a lot more toned than that, but admittedly didn’t change the clutch cable with a little pair of shorts on.. 😎

[Bob Clarkson]

I got my Mrs to change the clutch cable on her people carrier in B&Q’s car park. Not intentionally, it’s just that’s where we were when it snapped.

I done one end, but I couldn’t fit under it to connect at the gearbox and wasn’t intending on trusting the little standard jack. I had to just stand there giving instructions. She was ok with it, but the comments and looks of disapproval from customers in a busy car park was more than just uncomfortable.

[Bob Clarkson]

Reasonable quality single sided, one colour A5s are £10 a 1000 down our way. That includes the layout, but in fairness the layouts are not good so I tend to forward one. How much time can you expect someone to spend when the whole jobs a tenner.

[Bob Clarkson]

Have to agree, stunning pics, but who really believes we landed on the moon in the 60s. Every time I can’t get a phone signal, or I remember the Commondore 64, or a ZX Spectrum it always make me wonder.

[Bob Clarkson]

I used to sit hunched for hours when I was younger, painting on a van door, or along the bottom of a window. I’m a lot more aware of things now-days, and I’ll move about, bend and stretch numerous times during the day. I’ll get aches in my hand is I do masses of vinyl work, but that’s only because I don’t do it all the time now, even in my forearms sometimes.

[Bob Clarkson]

The whole posture thing tends to get very compromised in our job, you pretty much have to bend to where you have to be.

It’s awkward for me to do some jobs as I’m 6’4", I don’t fit in little spaces too well 🙁 Also pretty much all benches are too low, so mine are all lifted. It has advantages with some sign jobs, but certainly not with others.

Totally agree with the bed and shoes Harry, also a bit of general exercise keeps everything moving. Unless it’s pouring with rain, I either run or cycle the 3 miles it is from home to work. Running 6 miles a days may sound a bit drastic, but it’s easy if you do it day in day out.

[Bob Clarkson]

As it’s not always possible to work at the exact height you need to, you will be putting different strains on your joints. For instance, if you reaching up and pressing hard with the squeegee and the same time you can make a shoulder ache after a fairly short while. In the past I’ve managed to get mine to hurt when writing fascias, purely because I’ve not bothered moving the ladder to where it really should have been.

It’s not really something that should give long term pain though, once in a while if you’ve over done it maybe. It would be worth getting it checked out if it’s bad.

[Bob Clarkson]

I said I’ll match as close as poss to her printout
She said yes please

The second a conversation goes from very specific to a statement like the one above, I think the rules of what is fair changes.

I’ve come across this sort of thing before, and unless you’re dealing with people who themselves all know exactly what they’re doing, or you actually get to see one of their own vans or signs that they’re happy with it’s a problem waiting to happen.

I had a Pantone grey reference number sent to me by the Red Cross once, the colour was really dark, the print out showing what they wanted was really light. I contacted them and said send me a colour chip or leave it to my discretion. As it would have white lettering on it, it couldn’t be too light. This was before the days of Internet and they sent me a photo. I stated I could only do my best as it seemed to be somewhere in the middle of the two greys now. This all went fine, but if it hadn’t, I don’t think it would have been fair for me to entirely take the blame.

I can see both side of this, if it’s wrong and it’s honestly your fault, or you knew it couldn’t be the right colour as you’ve seen the company image, as a professional you should correct it. But if your wondering if you can be forced to pay for it to be corrected, then due to your conversation with secretary etc, very unlikely.

[Bob Clarkson]

I use that exact material, have done since it first came out. If you are sticking to bare ply, as long as it dust free it’ll stick easily long enough for a display. If it’s little more than an orange box in quality, it’ll still last for a short term exhibition.

Bit of quality or a coat of varnish and it’ll last for years. I’ve stuck it to a whole mass of things at customers discretion for short term exhibitions inc tires, felt, polystyrene, raw wood etc, and it’s always served it’s purpose.

Give me an exact description and I can give a far better answer.

[Bob Clarkson]

One thing worth remembering is, ask the customer if they are likely to put any net curtain behind it if it’s a cafe etc. The other thing that’s common with offices is to consider the colour of the vertical blinds or like. Light colours are generally better, but the window display/background will influence the decision.

When I paint, it really has to go inside, it just wouldn’t last otherwise, vinyl is a lot more durable on glass. So if you’ve got to pull half the window display out, or it’s going to be a nightmare to get to the corners, has to be done while shop is open etc, sticking outside is fine.

[Bob Clarkson]

A friend of mine had a brand new Subaru WRX fully airbrushed in the Matrix vein, personally I think it was very cleverly done, but it defies belief anyone would actually have all that done in paint. Anyway, nothings ever been said.

I don’t truthfully know, but how Peter has put it across makes perfect sense, I can’t imagine a decorator getting prosecuted for hanging knock off Disney wallpaper and I guess it’s the same thing.

There’s Clifford, Kenwood, No Fear etc stickers made by the million and that doesn’t seem to cause problems (unless anyone knows different)

The only job I’ve ever done that caused a stir was a Rolls Royce grill with RR on it at a prestige car sales. Rolls Royce were sending letters and threatening action within a few weeks.

[Bob Clarkson]

I know the feeling when you walk into something like that, and the fact it’s insured doesn’t immediately help emotionally, although it makes it financially easier it’d have been far nicer if it hadn’t happened in the first place. Best to look at it as a massive re-vamp with the insurance helping to cover the cost, at least it’s something positive then. Not that I suppose for a second it needed a re-vamp, as we all know it never seems to work that way.

[Bob Clarkson]

You say you’ve tried local council, but have you tried county council? We have a number of heavily subsidised county council units in complexes in our area. I used to have one years ago. It was fully inclusive, and when I say fully inclusive I even mean the heating. They were only designed to help you get going, a year was the time they were really designed for, I squeezed over two out of them on a tiny rent.

Farm buildings would be ok if you couldn’t get anything else, but they’re usually tucked away as Hugh said, and they’re not usually designed to be draft free and well insulated either!!

You’d be surprised how much work you can do from a decent size garage, assuming you’re only doing vinyls that is.

[Bob Clarkson]

I was going to say, it doesn’t matter if it’s glass or not Warren. It also doesn’t matter if it’s fitted wet or dry.

As I said though, not all de-icers do it, most do at least something, but some will pretty much ruin it in a very short space of time.

To save a load of to-ing and fro-ing, get a couple of bits of acrylic, stick a couple of letters on each, do one sign wet and the other one dry, give them a day or so to cure, splash with water and place in the freezer. Give them plenty of time to freeze, whip them out, spray with de-icer, rinse and repeat a few times to prove. Failing that, you could just take my word for it. 😎

[Bob Clarkson]

Sorry guys, it’s de-icer!! Some of it you’ll get away with, but some of it takes it off, I tried a little experiment a few years back. Have no idea what’s in it or why it does it though.

[Bob Clarkson]

I get a really good price on stabilised calendered, the 3m cast would cost me double. I check lots of supplier costs every 6 months or so, it’s not that the cast is dear, it’s that I can buy the calendered so cheaply. I watch the prices generally quoted on a range of material, posted on here, and I’m quietly confident.

There is no reason to take any notice of price lists in this trade on many products as it is not uncommon to be discounted down 70% off cost or find the exact same product for half. Even with the new cutter the was a 30% total cost variation in so called "best prices"

[Bob Clarkson]

Jill, I usually buy 50m rolls, I assume you do too as it’s the most economical way. Based on wahat you’ve just said, I agree, if the pice difference was as small in this country between cast and calendered I’d probably do the same as you and use it all the time. It’s a bit nearer double over here, often more.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ll just through another point in now. When I’ve written vans, either when I was doing it full time, or now a couple of days a week, I’ve never had anything fail. One thing I have noticed though, my lettering has always lasted better than the organisation supplied stickers be it Corgi, Gas in safe hands, NIC, Guild of master craftsmen, federation of master craftsman, you name it. I guess to get those printing contracts you’d need to be a fair size company, yet they’re generally poor quality printed on cheap vinyl. The expression "you get what you pay for" can’t always be considered a rule of thumb.

I once threw a spanner in the works with the Salvation army, I’ve done a lot of stuff for them over the years They’d already had thousands of printed stickers made by another company when I first started with them. They were not at all impressed when I said "maybe they should buy some better stuff than the cheap rubbish", they’d been told they were getting the best, and had paid premium for it.

I use a good calendered now, I used to use 3M cast on pretty much everything, but in virtually all applications both vinyls would out last their need. Really what is the point on putting a 7-10yrs vinyl on a van that’ll be P/X’d in 3-4yrs. So using a 5-7yrs calendered is already overkill.

I would not use any materials that I thought would give me problems, in fact I wouldn’t still be making signs if it caused me any hassle at any angle.

Suppliers will generally tell you their product is best, and sway you towards a more expensive material that is likely to give them a higher profit. The supplier is also far less likely to understand the material like an experienced signmaker, Hugh or myself will know more, this is just how it is. Read any car sales brochure, it doesn’t matter if it’s a Vauxhall or a Bentley, according to that brochure it’ll be innovating and the best car in the world, speak to the salesman, even if the car is rubbish the salesman would do himself no favors to admit it.

[Bob Clarkson]

In fairness Hugh, that’s pretty much exactly what it is. I’ve changed phone numbers written in reds and yellows several years later, and it doesn’t even notice as there’s no fade. Decent calendered is more than ok for almost everything that obviously doesn’t go into recesses etc.

About 5yrs ago I ordered in some vinyl to flood coat a 2440×1220 sign. As with most things it was a panic opening of a hall, and supplier had sent me the wrong grade, it was a cheaper calendered. My first thought was order again, but I though I’ll chance it, and should it be a problem I’ll replace it free of charge.

I see it most days, and it looks the same as the day I made it. I’m not suggesting that’s ok to do that, but I do feel what’s used must be good enough, but ten times better than needed is often pointless.

[Bob Clarkson]

Happy new year Martin. Strange statement you just put, please don’t make me think to hard about it. I’ll give you my email if I can help.

[Bob Clarkson]

I can’t say I’m up on makes of vinyl, so I’ll ask. I’ve used 3M cast on boats with no problems, I’ve used Ultramark calendered as well. I’ve never had a problem with either. A lot of the new sailing boats I’ve done have come back years later for repairs and additions, on all examples the lettering done in Ultramark calendered was fine.

Due to the fact I’ve only ever used Ultramark, 3M, Fasson and Avery, I can’t comment on whether a good calendered would be better than a low quality make cast. I had some Ritrama sent to me, and I didn’t even put it in the cutter, it had a finish like insulating tape. There must be more specifics and factors than simply cast or calendered.

[Bob Clarkson]

My opinion on this, which I know can’t work in all instances would be build an extension. If someone expects their business to remain relatively small scale, doesn’t feel that they would loose significant amounts of work due to not having a unit, and they have a house that isn’t suitable to work from in it’s present form, but would take a decent size extension, it’d be my route.

In 4yrs expenses would be up to £48000 having the unit, £48000 would comfortably build a nice attached or free standing double garage with an office/guest accommodation above. I know the unit would be tax deductible in full, not sure on the extension. It defiantly wouldn’t be tax deductible on the shell, but may be from second fix.

Now to spend £48000 on an extension sounds excessive, but spending £1000 a month on a unit sounds like the norm.

There’s obviously the added bonus of once it’s paid for that’s the end of it, the house will be nicer to live in, and it’s worth best part of what you’ve spent extra when you sell it. Also should you stop trading for whatever reason after 4yrs or so, no matter how things went you’d always have at least something to show for it.

[Bob Clarkson]

I wrote every Wanderer, Wayfarer and Blue Peter sailing boat when they were produced locally to me. This would amount to well over a thousand over a 15yr or so period. Everyone of those boats was done in a good calendered. I have to agree, most of these type of pleasure craft don’t see water that often in the big scheme of things, and they’re generally covered up in a boatyard or someones garden when they’re not.

I’ve also done quite a few fishing boat legal/registration numbers, and a fair few speed boats. I can’t see the take any more of a hiding than if they were on an HGV cab getting jet washed with truck wash each weekend after doing a thousand miles.

On the very expensive cruisers I’ve done, I have used 3M cast though, I’ve also made a point of letting them see the 3M on the back when I’ve finished. It’s a name people will trust, and it makes them feel better.

I’m completely confident when I leave a boat that I’ve just fitted calendered vinyl to, but I’m never happy when I’ve painted them by hand on fibreglass which I’ve been asked to do a few times.

[Bob Clarkson]

I apologise to you too Peter. I put forward a controversial opinion which in honesty fueled a reaction. Coupled with this I put it across in a very one sided manner.

I’d be happy to call it "six of one and half a dozen of the other" if that sounds fair to you, and I will try to be a bit more thoughtful how I word things in future.

On a lighter note, I wrote a Fiesta van DRY today. I’m not going to pretend it came natural, but I will admit I got it on there with no creases or bubbles anywhere. Did I do it quicker than I could of wet, no I didn’t. Could I in time do it quicker dry than wet, very possibly!!!

[Bob Clarkson]

I do miss the days when the most important thing in the world was how loud the dump valve was, or how low you could slam it and still have a 4" exhaust 😀

Unfortunately growing up seem to make it all fade into insignificance, which I’m really not sure is a good thing 😕

I do still build the odd car, and still have one really mad one, but the days of laying on the floor and welding till midnight take their toll. 😥

Most peculiar thing, my Mrs actually encourages me to do these things. If I joked and said I was putting a V8 in her people carrier, she’d probably just ask for it to be supercharged. 😮

[Bob Clarkson]

The mention of fuel was purely down to the fact Alan said people just accepted the cost of their diesel, basically because there is no choice nothing more. If you want or need it, you have to pay for it, even if you don’t like it.

I don’t think I made any reference to avoiding legal responsibilities either, just purely an observation on customer groups in our respective fields.

To survive in business, the first thing to remember is "money is money" if it’s earned it make no difference if it’s from a multi-national company or the guy round the corner who’s starting up and needs a site board.

Ironically, your reference to the "here next week, let alone next year." type customer, is by definition condescending.

I also find it a little disturbing you use the word argument, I assumed it was an all round discussion to try and learn from each other and to gain experience from a variety of other peoples view points. It need have little relevance who actually agree with who, purely the fact someone has that specific view point, by the law of averages they are unlikely to be alone.

[Bob Clarkson]

I was vat registered with the signs from 86, when I started vinyls, and de-registered in the mid 90s. I found more and more people were beginning to begrudge the vat.

As it’s not an everyday cost, yes people will swallow it. People will pay pretty much anything to get done what they need done. For instance my car does 15mpg, truly horrendous, but I don’t care what it costs, I’ll pay it.

Change the situation so every penny counts, which is soon to happen across this country, and people will be more keen to save some money. Getting it 20% cheaper of a non-registered must be considered, especially is there a good signmaker

[Bob Clarkson]

I agree that if you’re mainly just doing vinyl, there’s little point in being vat registered, and if a lot of your customer base is not registered it would actually be detrimental.

I de-registered on the sign front some years ago, I only really needed to be registered when I used to do a lot of council work, you really needed to be registered to get that. I also used to do a lot of acrylic signs, which easily whack the turnover up too high.

If I went into an area where my production wasn’t such a high profit ratio, or I figured I’d by a 20k van I’d probably re-consider.

There is, and will be a lot of new companies springing up, bit of building, property maintenance etc, they won’t be registered. There will also be lots of trades de-registering so they will be more competitive to the general public. It’s easier for no-registered companies to clear them up.

I think that unless you’re turning over in excess of 70k where you have no choice, or you have a fairly set client base of vat registered customers, your probably best off out of it. It’ll give you a better edge if you’re a small business.

[Bob Clarkson]

Remember that even if you can’t claim the vat back it’s still tax deductable.

[Bob Clarkson]

The out for themselves culture has increased, and it really is a shame.

So to prove what I was meaning I’ll give an example. If you done a sign, with no deposit, and let a sign out to a complete stranger, then said drop the money in when you feel like it, you’ve potentially given it away! Who would actually take the risk of doing it? Now put the shoe on the other foot, if any of you were in your customers "now" position, how many of you would openly admit you’d take advantage and never pay?

This is why I stick to the essence of my slightly damming statement. How many people do we believe are as honest and decent as we believe ourselves to be?

I know that only loosely fits in with the whole deposit scenario, but I do find logic and response very interesting.