Bob Clarkson
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Just posting a couple of pics of some of my stuff so anyone can accept Ive got half an idea myself. Appreciate the siteboards are a bit of an easy style, but be fair, I was barely 14! (Note the school uniform, I wasn’t auditioning as an extra in Gregory’s Girl!) The Beach Buggy is gilded, but other than the letters on the Grand Hotel, Ive not done much of it. The Cosmetics sign was one of a set of freehand signs, which is the type of stuff I used to like painting. I did used to get some odd responses because people really didnt expect the complete randomness of how I felt things should be done. I still have that problem in most areas of my life!
The CADOWS logo was surprisingly difficult. I put it on a bedford CF van in 1982 for the local Vauxhall dealer and I really did think at one point that Id overstretched myself when I hadnt as yet even done an art O level!
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Fully agree, but I am prepared to pay whatever it will cost to get what I want, my definition of what I "want", is a best possible cut I can get! But as I won’t take on jobs that involve masses of tiny letters, this may not be as expensive as first thought, though I still have two tangential Gerber’s if I chose to do some really small stuff.
If both machines D60 drag and s75 tangential cut to the same degree, that I can’t tell the difference on letters between 10mm and 600mm, then obviously I’m not going to throw away around 4k for the sake of it.
As much as I do run my little company as a registered business, I write vans/make signs more for my own pleasure and personal satisfaction than as a job these days. I do not compremise to suit the customer, I won’t even do a layout/design they may want if I don’t like it. The quality of what I make is the most important to me.
I know it sounds arrogant, but when I was doing signs full time, my unreasonable standards kept me busy for over 20yrs, without needing to advertise. When writing vans, I will explain roughly what I’m going to do, but then say " I may change this completely if I think of something better while I’m doing it." As long as it says what’s needed, I feel how it’s done should be the job for the person who’s done it for 30yrs to decide. That was how it worked when stuff was written by hand, and I’m not changing for anyone. If I wasn’t confident the customer would be happy with my work, then I wouldn’t do signwork at all.
I know it’s only a matter of time before someone hates what I’ve done for them, but it hasn’t happened in 30yrs, and my work isn’t getting worse, so I think I’m pretty safe…
This is the whole point of my quest for the best quality equipment I can get, the layout, colour, standard of fitting I can control, I can’t allow what comes out the plotter or poor standard of software, to be the bit that lets me down.. -
The demo was for the tangential, and they offered to come to me. Think for over 5k I should at least be able to see something work first. (I only became suspicious/paranoid because of bad samples remember) It was also the Summa rep, so he won’t be on commission as you can’t buy direct from them. I actually said, if you bring it down, give me a demo and I’ll do a cash tranfer there and then, but they won’t sell direct, will only sell through their dealers. I was going to have to travel to London to meet up for the Graphtec one.
It seems most of the dealers just sell them, they purely pass them through in true mail order fashion, they don’t have much knowledge or premises with demonstrators on site etc. I went to Bristol to buy the 4B’s, and really didn’t mind going that far again, it’s not like I buy these things very often.
I will post the Graphtec stuff Chris, it was purely through seeing that I made the assumption I needed Tangential. If that was how a 3k cutter cut, I assumed I needed to pay 5k, does that make sense? Now I’ve had the stuff cut by Spandex on a D60, I totally agree with you, there is no point in me buying the dearer one. The D60 is fine, ideal in fact for the stuff I do now, I really only do vans. I’ll do the odd fascia, site boards and a bit of general too. But I don’t really take on jobs that involve small stuff, ie under 10mm. I’m happy for Spandex just to stick a D60R in the post, if their rep hadn’t been on holiday when I first phoned I wouldn’t have wasted my time with anyone else, I should have just waited. I’m as bad as the customers I get that have driven about in their van un-written for 3mth, then when they decide they want it done, they want it done immediately (!) -
Right, well it’s hardly all gone well this week. Think I’m about ready to either buy from Spandex, or just not bother at all and stick with my 4B’s till we’re further into recession and people can be bothered to make an effort. Now I’ve had my little moan, let me explain.
Summa guy was suppose to have turned up Tuesday 24th, he phones half hour before he’s due and tells me he’s broken down, ok, fair enough it can happen, but the rest of the week goes by without further contact. If it’s left like that when I’m prepared to buy a Summa Tangential for over 5 grand, what sort of service will I get if I buy a little D60 for under £1500 and for some reason it won’t work properly.
Graphtec didn’t get back to me at all regarding confirming a day for demonstration, that was promised over 2 weeks ago, but would it matter as they sent me two lots of rubbish samples, so what’s the point! Thing is, it does matter, as it must be a good machine due to the amount of you guys that use them. If the samples I was sent were typical, no one would ever buy one.
If I buy from Spandex, the warranty is their own, but it’s only a year, on site and a year parts only. Summa is 3yrs as you all know, but if it takes a week to get back to me when buying, how good is warranty. Spandex warranty may be a lot less, but the service so far way exceeds the other few places I’ve contacted. They are also the best price, trouble is they supply, Omega 4, which none of you seem to use, there must be a reason for that? Do I just expect too much, or do others on here feel the same?? There is way more knowlege on this forum than the dealers have, I don’t mean with regards to making signs, I mean knowing their products, some of then might just as well be selling garden furniture! Have to say though, Ben from Spandex does seem to be able to answer all the questions, shorter warranty or not, don’t think I have an option… -
I was tempted to post a pic of some real oak, and pretend it was my work 😀 But to be honest, real oak doesn’t look that good. With regards to brush signwriting, I like to think I can stand my ground against, pretty much anyone. But compared to that oak, my graining can only be described as rubbish. I have no pics of my graining, which is good, as I would be too embarrased to post them if I had. 😥 I’ll figure how to post some of my brushwork for opinions…..
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I think it looks good, yes I know you can pick holes in it, that said, what can’t you pick holes in. But lets be fair, It’s a small independent shop, so there is also the price to consider. For what you’d got to work with, you’ve got a great affect without making it unaffordable, it’s ideal balance these days. I believe the customer would have been more than happy with it.
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My Summa demonstration is this week, then a week or so after I get to see the Graphtec. Spandex have got back to me, and reckon I’ll be happy with a D600. If that is the case, (they are sending more samples) it’ll save a few quid, which can only be a good thing. You’d really thing companies in general would pay a bit more care and attention to what they send out. Give a bit of effort on the sample, and sell a 4k cutter sounds like easy money to me.
I’ve not seem any of the samples sent to me yet, that would prove Nigel wrong, and I know if you buy a watch for a £10, it’s generally got the same insides as if you buy one for £50, it’s just the case that’s better. But I also know a Land Rover Discovery is no BMW X5. So believe it’s not necessarily a straightforward decision, to buy a cutter, just because on the surface it’s the same sort of thing. If the quality of product and standard of it’s performance is important to you, there are always swaying factors in whatever you’re buying… -
Hi, What is it you use the cutter for then. ?? and the other thing is which Graphtec is it and what’s your opinion of it ?? Bob
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I have to admit, a print accompanying some nice cut vinyls looks nice, but a print only does look pretty low budget. I’m updating my stuff at the minute, but will still only do vinyls. With regards to getting work, if you’re good, and it also helps with your local competition isn’t the most skilled on the planet, you’ll always get work. I started an apprenticeship with a retired signwriter when I was 12yrs, I was writing new vans at local Ford and Vauxhall dealerships before I’d left school. In fairness, I got these type of contacts purely off the reputation of the guy who’d taught me. If he said I was good enough, his word was just accepted without question. I was 16yrs when I started coachlining Rolls and Bentley. This is not meant as self praise, but to state as much as I can signwrite, I don’t do it anymore, I have done the odd one, but then I keep getting asked for it, then it becomes a drudge more than a pleasure. Vinyls are faster and more commercial, so I don’t mind as much, but I will still only do it as a second job, more for my own satisfaction. I wouldn’t want it as a full time job anymore, amateurs have ruined what was once a skilled profession.
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Just wanted to add, I prefere Tim’s second one to his first, and Jill’s works very nicely, (even though she admitted it was only quick, so a little unrefined I guess) but either way it makes it look like it would be a national company, whether it is or not. Running it straight, may appear to be less thought or effort, but it’s certainly nicer.
I know you’ll have all already thought of this, but remember the over engineered door runner on the other side before you go too far. 😕 I know not all Connects have it, but you can guarantee it’ll be there if you don’t want it to be..
PS please don’t anyone ever take a comment I may make as being over critical or unfair, I’m very new to this forum and hope I can fit in well. I have worked for the last 25yrs with no outside input, and am in an area of the country were you seldom see good work. I really feel I can help and be helped through this forum. -
Hopefully I’ll have software where I can post my ideas too, in the near future. But I agree, the whole loads of phone numbers thing really can be a nightmare. I will often do the mobile numbers slightly smaller, assuming it’s second in line that is, just to give people a chance to register divisions in what can look like just a mass of numbers. I’ve had it with partnerships where they both want their home and mobile numbers on the van, Four numbers, who someone is and what they do really is going to take a minute to read, let alone lay out nice.
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Ok mike, now that sounds interesting. I’ve got two 4Bs, how do I go about using one of them in conjunction with a PC?? The amount of work I do these days that would probably surfice at least in the short term. If you can help me make this happen I will be more than grateful.
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I hoped to establish the cutter I wanted/needed first, then I was going to start grinding the price down. I’ve noticed very much with both cutters and software that the prices are literally all over the place.
Especially after what Chris said, I shall be careful with software, and Liam has confirmed the operators efforts will pay dividends.
Gerber fonts were getting toward £250 each back in the late 80s, but at that time, anything other than a Gerber was about as good as a using a Stanley knife after a couple of cans of Stella 😕 In 1987, a 4B was about a third of the price of a three bedroom semi, and very hard to negotiate as they were the only thing on the market worth buying. Fortunately things have changed on the comparison front now. As I was only 20yrs old when I bought them, I had enough energy to work them hard and make them earn their money, added bonus to that is I’m still using them now, so they weren’t a bad investment really. -
Can’t split them on terms of output quality.
Thanks everyone, but David, that’s exactly the type of thing I wanted to hear. I’m happy to pay the extra money (well I think prepared to pay the extra money might be more suited to my thoughts than happy) but as I said before, I don’t want to pay more than I have to, so if you can’t see a difference, I’d save 2k and have the Graphtec.
I know I shouldn’t write this next bit, and don’t want to offend anyone, but the sample Graphtec themselves sent me done on a FC8000 was far worse than Spandex sent me done on a Summa D600. Graphtec blamed the file, Spandex has now told me twice their rep will be contacting me, but no one’s actually bothered, it’s nearly a month now, so I wouldn’t deal with them either way now. Must also point out neither company sent me what I asked for either. This was however where I came up with the theory of "pilot error" so have no alternative but to see each cutter in action for myself. Thanks again to everyone. -
The Gerbers I have, are 4Bs, They are around 23yrs old now, thus they don’t use software as are not PC based. If you are unfamiliar with them, they are a machine in their own right, they can do nothing other than cut letters. They are so old I have to cut the "@" symbol by hand as there was no widely available internet when they were made, makes you think. They have the versatility of being able to do upper/lower case, extending/condensing and slant to any chosen degree or percentage in one of 12 chosen styles, they can also write in reverse or in an arc. That really is their full capacity, they don’t even have a memory, so I have masses of bits of paper with measurement on them for repeat work. But what they do have going for them is quality and accuracy that can hold it’s own up against any modern cutter. Design supplies, in London has been the only company I’ve contacted that has shown any true customer service, they have arranged a demonstration of each cutter, the others companies I contacted couldn’t even gets the samples right (:) The Graphtec is around 2k cheaper than the Summa, so I really have to know I’m getting my monies worth if I go Summa route. The whole file/program quality issues seem to have presented themselves in a few of the samples I have received. One of the companies blamed a bad file when I said the sample they’d sent me was rubbish in my opinion, if it was a bad file why send it as a sample if you want best part of 3k for the cutter, it amazes me sometimes. Get the impression an expert with a modest cutter can do a far better job they an armature with the best one in the world, am I wrong??
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I do like how James has done it. Wish I had the same sort of software so I could post what I can draw. That’s another point, what’s the best software! I have only come across copyright once, and that was on a prestige cars sales. I was asked to do an 8ft Rolls Royce grill with the RR in it. I said at the time I figured we’d get some comeback, but like most car dealers he wasn’t troubled by litttle things like legal issues.:wink: About 3 months later he’d got a warning and asked me to alter it. I changed the RR into an RPC monogram. The change was a lot of hassle, for a little money, you may find this guy expects you to alter it for a thank-you. So quick fix for a couple of quid or if it’s a diplomatic move do mine, if he’s happy to put his hand in his pocket or you feel like doing some PR, Jame’s.
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You could pick up a second user machine a lot cheaper than a new one and maybe even from a supplier where someone has upgraded to a larger machine since you only need something that will cut 610mm[/quote]
I have thought about this, but as I’m really unfamiliar with any of the more modern plotters I still don’t really know what to buy. A 610mm would be ideal for me size wise, but I realise that’s quite small as plotters go so there will be some available as you say when people upgrade to bigger. It’s mainly down to finding out what machine I need.
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Thanks for the welcome, will get a photo on soon as poss, and realised the name thing soon as I looked at everyone elses. 😕
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I’ve done work for the red cross, and they are very specific on how they want things done. I made a batch of signs for them and the layout was rubbish, but as that was approved there was no option to tweak it to a nice sign.
Anyway, getting back to you cross. If you imagine dividing the cross into 4 doing a diagonal "X" in the centre, then divide each of the 4 section into 2 through it’s longest plain. You will now have eight portions. Options now are to hatch alternate portions through shortest plain either keeping the same colour, or transferring to the black for contrast. You could of course remove and replace 4 alternate sections in black instead, it’s only a ten minute job that way. I promise it’ll work 😉 -
I have to say Shane, it’s very unusual for me to be especially impressed with anything when you see the average standard of work these days. But that is stunning, it’s a gift to be able to do that to that standard, it can never really be learned. The guy I done my apprenticeship with could do it to that quality, but I was never satisfied with what I could achieve, and have never offered it as a service. That said I could still do it far better than half the pub refits you see these days 😕 Seldom do I give a compliment, but hats off to you.
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quote Martin:Welcome to the forum Bobsy, if the plotters you have do the job do you really need a new machine ? Plotter may not be the fastest but if it’s doing the job why spend money upgrading if you aren’t interested in growing the business.
That is obviously a very good point, and one that I’ve been churning over in my head for a year or so now. The main reason for upgrade is that through good software I can create signs that will incorporate all the expression that I used to be able to put into sign-writing, but could never fully achieve with vinyls. Although I’ve done vinyls for the last 25yrs or so, the job satisfaction cannot compare to any job I have written by hand. But as with all things, I got too busy, and needed a faster way of doing more work, vinyl was the only answer. This new system will be for my own pleasure as much as anything. I still do a bit of coach-lining, Rollers, classic bikes etc, but have done too many to enjoy it now. It’s like a new lease to a tied trade for me. This is why I need a really good cutter, I am far more self critical than any customer has ever been of me.