Boat lettering! What vinyl should i use?

[Martin Pearson]

What manufacturer do you use at the moment for vinyl. Pretty much any good quality cast vinyl should be OK but just remember it won’t do for any type of inflatable craft.

[Shane Drew]

Personally, I only use 3M 7725 as it is specified as ‘Marine Grade’.

Whatever you use, make sure it has a permanent solvent adhesive, and is nothing less than a cast material.

[Brian Carey]

Does it need to be a cast vinyl for the boat lettering?I can get KPMF 70000 from my supplier, its a 10yr + cast. 3.99 PER M.
BC

[Shane Drew]

quote Brian Carey:

Does it need to be a cast vinyl for the boat lettering?I can get KPMF 70000 from my supplier, its a 10yr + cast. 3.99 PER M.
BC

Isn’t that a digital print film?

No reason why not I guess.

A cast film is least likely to shrink around the edge, and can withstand greater abuse from the elements. It also goes into uneven surfaces better and if applied correctly will be as good as new for many years to come.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Only cast on boats for me (I usually paint them though)
Love…..Jill

[Peter Normington]

Any good 7-10 year vinyl will do the job, its unlikey to be going in recesses, so a good quality calendered will be fine.
If being applied above the waterline, which i assume it will be, (unless for a submarine,) its hardly likely to get any more abuse than vehicle lettering.
If you think about it, a van traveling up the motorway at 70mph+ in winter weather with salt and grit flying everywhere, is probably worse than any pleasure craft will have to endure.
For jetskies and speedboats, cast is the way to go, and it does no harm to edge seal.

Peter

[Martin Pearson]

I have only ever used cast for boats because that was what I was advised to use by one of the suppliers, I doubt that a van would endure worse weather even this time of year as a boat is quite likely to be in salt water for most of the year and the lettering quite often submerged in choppy weather.

Never seen vinyl applied to submarines personally but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen :lol1: :lol1:

[Peter Normington]

Martin I suppose it would depend on if the boat was commercial or a pleasure craft.
as to how it is used.
many pleasure craft spend their lives in fresh water, on lakes canals and rivers. and in winter even the ones in salt water are usually moored in sheltered marinas, so dont have any worse treatment than vehicles, I would fit cast for extreme conditions, but don’t see a problem with good quality calendared for a big percentage of boat usage.
Peter

[Jill Marie Welsh]

My reasons for choosing cast are twofold.
A boat is a very valuable thing and deserves a quality vinyl
(that’s just my personal opinion)
and I have seen calendered vinyl (such as Oracal 651 reds and yellows) fade after only about 18 months in direct sunlight.
(that’s personal experience)

[Bob Clarkson]

I wrote every Wanderer, Wayfarer and Blue Peter sailing boat when they were produced locally to me. This would amount to well over a thousand over a 15yr or so period. Everyone of those boats was done in a good calendered. I have to agree, most of these type of pleasure craft don’t see water that often in the big scheme of things, and they’re generally covered up in a boatyard or someones garden when they’re not.

I’ve also done quite a few fishing boat legal/registration numbers, and a fair few speed boats. I can’t see the take any more of a hiding than if they were on an HGV cab getting jet washed with truck wash each weekend after doing a thousand miles.

On the very expensive cruisers I’ve done, I have used 3M cast though, I’ve also made a point of letting them see the 3M on the back when I’ve finished. It’s a name people will trust, and it makes them feel better.

I’m completely confident when I leave a boat that I’ve just fitted calendered vinyl to, but I’m never happy when I’ve painted them by hand on fibreglass which I’ve been asked to do a few times.

[Shane Drew]

Aside from the fact Australia has one of the higher UV levels (and skin cancer rates) in the world, I’d still not use a cal vinyl.

As Jill has said, I have seen some 6 year cals fade here in 18 months. Frankly, for the extra cost of cast over Cal, I don’t see that the small savings using cal warrant the reduced quality. The signs are not usually huge, and I’d rather have complete peace of mind knowing I used the best, over second best, for someones rather expensive investment.

Just my views, and considering we are a boating nation here in Oz, its not worth the risk.

[Matty Goodwin]

Totally agree with Shane.

For the sake of a couple of quid per mtr why take the risk?

Not worth thinking about in my book…

Matt

[Bob Clarkson]

I can’t say I’m up on makes of vinyl, so I’ll ask. I’ve used 3M cast on boats with no problems, I’ve used Ultramark calendered as well. I’ve never had a problem with either. A lot of the new sailing boats I’ve done have come back years later for repairs and additions, on all examples the lettering done in Ultramark calendered was fine.

Due to the fact I’ve only ever used Ultramark, 3M, Fasson and Avery, I can’t comment on whether a good calendered would be better than a low quality make cast. I had some Ritrama sent to me, and I didn’t even put it in the cutter, it had a finish like insulating tape. There must be more specifics and factors than simply cast or calendered.

[Matty Goodwin]

Your right Bob, ‘cast’ varies from make to make.

As I fitter, I tend to stick (‘scuse the pun!) to what material I personally prefer and I guess others here do also.

One mans meat and all that…

Ritrama, wouldn’t even think about it! (personal view!)

Matt

[Hugh Potter]

i’ve done quite a number of the commercial fishing boats down here, both the boats and the fish boxes, offered the choice tween ‘cheap’ calendared (651), better calendared (551) and cast (851), they chose the 651, price every time! I only supply, they fit.

these boats go out in all weathers, in bigger seas than any pleasure craft -meaning the decals actually get wet, spend all their time in the harbour and go out most days of the year, the fish boxes are stored outside in all weathers and thrown about all over, they then get filled with ice, stuck in comercial fridges and freezers and thrown about where landed.

in three years i’ve never been asked to replace a boat number / name and the box names have only been re-ordered due to replacing broken boxes! i’ve not seen any noticable fade on the life rings (yellow), fenders(red), boxes (blue) or boat names either.

it begs the question… are we often over gunning what we actually need to use? up-selling for the sake of profit rather than what will do the job?

i know there are nasty films out there, i’ve tried a number and wouldn’t use them again but, there are also -one the face of it- good low priced calendared films which seem to cope quite admirably under the circumstances.

[Bob Clarkson]

In fairness Hugh, that’s pretty much exactly what it is. I’ve changed phone numbers written in reds and yellows several years later, and it doesn’t even notice as there’s no fade. Decent calendered is more than ok for almost everything that obviously doesn’t go into recesses etc.

About 5yrs ago I ordered in some vinyl to flood coat a 2440×1220 sign. As with most things it was a panic opening of a hall, and supplier had sent me the wrong grade, it was a cheaper calendered. My first thought was order again, but I though I’ll chance it, and should it be a problem I’ll replace it free of charge.

I see it most days, and it looks the same as the day I made it. I’m not suggesting that’s ok to do that, but I do feel what’s used must be good enough, but ten times better than needed is often pointless.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I would rather go for the over kill method than risk having to re-do something (for free)
Cast is really not that much more expensive than calendered.

[Hugh Potter]

quote Jill Marie Welsh:

I would rather go for the over kill method than risk having to re-do something (for free)
Cast is really not that much more expensive than calendered.

I appreciate what you’re saying Jill (happy new yr btw!) and, I usually do so as it is how I was told how to do it when learning all I could as a start-up, however, the jobs i’ve done where I would have preferred to have used a higher quality vinyl are still going strong, i’ve never had a job fail with oracle 651 -for eg. i’ve used it on boats (and other marine apps), ‘temp’ signage which is still up after 3yrs, a sprinter recess, been fine for over 2yr, painted facia for more than two yrs, and so on.

I really do think we go overkill sometimes, i reckon a good brand name vinyl, calendared or cast, will be good quality regardless,

Hugh

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ll just through another point in now. When I’ve written vans, either when I was doing it full time, or now a couple of days a week, I’ve never had anything fail. One thing I have noticed though, my lettering has always lasted better than the organisation supplied stickers be it Corgi, Gas in safe hands, NIC, Guild of master craftsmen, federation of master craftsman, you name it. I guess to get those printing contracts you’d need to be a fair size company, yet they’re generally poor quality printed on cheap vinyl. The expression "you get what you pay for" can’t always be considered a rule of thumb.

I once threw a spanner in the works with the Salvation army, I’ve done a lot of stuff for them over the years They’d already had thousands of printed stickers made by another company when I first started with them. They were not at all impressed when I said "maybe they should buy some better stuff than the cheap rubbish", they’d been told they were getting the best, and had paid premium for it.

I use a good calendered now, I used to use 3M cast on pretty much everything, but in virtually all applications both vinyls would out last their need. Really what is the point on putting a 7-10yrs vinyl on a van that’ll be P/X’d in 3-4yrs. So using a 5-7yrs calendered is already overkill.

I would not use any materials that I thought would give me problems, in fact I wouldn’t still be making signs if it caused me any hassle at any angle.

Suppliers will generally tell you their product is best, and sway you towards a more expensive material that is likely to give them a higher profit. The supplier is also far less likely to understand the material like an experienced signmaker, Hugh or myself will know more, this is just how it is. Read any car sales brochure, it doesn’t matter if it’s a Vauxhall or a Bentley, according to that brochure it’ll be innovating and the best car in the world, speak to the salesman, even if the car is rubbish the salesman would do himself no favors to admit it.

[Brian Carey]

Im with you on this one Hugh as the price of the 651 is abit more manageable than some of the cast vinyls. and it sounds like it has pretty good lasting abilities too. There’s no point in spoiling people with expensive vinyls that aren’t necessary when they try and beat you down on price!
BC.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I don’t let people beat me down on price.
A roll of cast vinyl (in the size I buy anyway) is about $15 more than calendered.
Minimum boat transom charge for me is $75.
(that’s the name written out, one color, usually about 36" long at the most for reflective or fancy stuff or SignGold it would cost more)
Hand painted is $125 I like that better because a can of paint is only about $12.
Say you slap calendered onto a boat transom and it fades.
The boat owner bad-mouths you to everyone at the marina.
(even if he is a cheap skate who tried to beat you down on price)
For the extra $15 I would go with cast.
That’s not spoiling someone, that’s using a quality material.
I never put calendered on any sort of vehicle, only on corosigns.

[Bob Clarkson]

Jill, I usually buy 50m rolls, I assume you do too as it’s the most economical way. Based on wahat you’ve just said, I agree, if the pice difference was as small in this country between cast and calendered I’d probably do the same as you and use it all the time. It’s a bit nearer double over here, often more.

[Matty Goodwin]

Not sure where you buy from Bob, but double, sometimes more for cast????

I’d source a new supplier if I was you!!

Matt

[Bob Clarkson]

I get a really good price on stabilised calendered, the 3m cast would cost me double. I check lots of supplier costs every 6 months or so, it’s not that the cast is dear, it’s that I can buy the calendered so cheaply. I watch the prices generally quoted on a range of material, posted on here, and I’m quietly confident.

There is no reason to take any notice of price lists in this trade on many products as it is not uncommon to be discounted down 70% off cost or find the exact same product for half. Even with the new cutter the was a 30% total cost variation in so called "best prices"

[Peter Normington]

I will go with bob and hugh on this.
Cast can cost twice as much if not more, it depends on the make, but at the end of the day being cast does not mean it will fade less or not stick as long, sticking is down to the adhesive, the colour is down to the pigments used.
some calendared our now knocking on ten year durability, Calendared vinyl quite often has the same adhesive as its more expensive cast variant, so at the end of the day, who has the competitive edge? I would think the one who uses cheaper, but equally appropriate material for the job in hand.

Peter

[Peter Normington]

quote Brian Carey:

Im with you on this one Hugh as the price of the 651 is abit more manageable than some of the cast vinyls. and it sounds like it has pretty good lasting abilities too. There’s no point in spoiling people with expensive vinyls that aren’t necessary when they try and beat you down on price!
BC.

I would be more happy using 551, (upto 8 year rather than 5) you dont need cast, but do need a good quality calendared, not short term stuff, for reasons I have already stated
and it is only 65 micron thick, so on a par with some cast vinyls

Peter

[Martin Cole]

I have supplied hundreds of boat names over the years, always used 551 never had a problem. Grafityp 2/300 series also does the job.

[Nigel Hindley]

…Just to add we have done literally hundreds of boats, not just names, numbers, graphics, safety signs and lettering, life rings, – for the bow, stern all over inside and out etc. for commercial fishing boats, boat trip boats, small and large pleasure craft and yachts. All done in cheap calendared vinyl.

I live in the Hebrides, very windy so these boats get a battering, in 10 years we have never had to replace anything. None have deteriorated in any way, no peeling, no loss of letters, no fading.

Despite the harsh sea conditions, I reckon these boats (as Peter said) get less abuse than vehicles. Less extreme temperatures (temperatures at sea are more constant) no ice, no grit, no cleaning, no dirt hitting the vinyl probably less water hitting them to be honest than vehicles.

No point in wasting money id say stick with calendered.

Nigel

[Brian Carey]

What vinyl are you using Nigel?
BC.

[Nigel Hindley]

Mactac 8300 series (3-5 year) Brian, never had any problems at all.

With regard t what has been said about using higher spec vinyl than is needed, I agree that in a lot of cases this is the case. Particular in Scotland.

We have less sunlight, less sub zero temperatures than the south. Ok its cold more often in Scotland but not the huge differences in temperatures. The lack of sunlight also means that the life of a vinyl is longer. We have virtually no problems with fading and deterioration of even the cheapest vinyl with a simple flat application.

Only my humble observation and opinion!

Nigel

Nigel