Looking for a unit – what should I ask?

[David Rowland]

Well, firstly say "ow much?" in a devonshire accent, when he replies take a deep breath whistling the sound out of the mouth, regardless of what they say.

Then rates… (or look them up online now)

Any shared responsibility like Gardening/grass cuttings fees

Look up, not down…. for leaks… go when it’s raining.

[Martin Pearson]

Warren I will start you off, firstly I think it is accepted by most landlords these days that people will want some sort of rent free period to allow them to settle in. I would certainly be trying to get as much as possible from them. You need to know the terms of the lease, if it is a full repairing lease it will mean you are responsible for ALL repairs so you need to know the building is watertight and not going to fall down before you sign anything. Any work that needs doing make sure the landlord does before you put pen to paper.
Gas/electric find out who is responsible for them, my last unit this had to be done through the landl;ord and they set their own rates which were higher than anything I could get myself.
How long the lease is is worth thinking about as well, the last one I had was for 3 years but had a get out clause after the first year, good to have if things don’t work out to well for you.

Will keep thinking and come back to this if I think of anything else that would be worth asking.

[Neil Davey]

Similar to Martin.

It wouldn’t be cheeky to ask for a month or so free to help with moving in.
As Dave says find out what the rates are, they may even be nothing at the moment or if not you may be able to get small business rates relief. It works on a sliding scale dependant on the amount you have to pay. You probably know this but you need to find out the rateable value and the actual % in the pound that you pay.
Lease, do you have to sign up for a number of years or is it easy in easy out. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. We signed to a 3 year lease with an option of a mutual break after 18 months initially.
Insurance, both buildings, contents and disruption also plan for heating, which can be high if you like to stay warm!
Water rates. Business telephone line is more expensive than domestic.
Lots to think about Warren but exciting none the less.

[Earl Smith]

Hi Warren,
One other thing to mention and Martin touched on it as well. Is there a get out clause after one year? If there is not and for some reason your business doesnt work then you might be stuck with paying the rent for the rest of the lease time. If you cant pay it then they take your house, car and so on.
Also if halfway through your lease you contract has a rent review in it then beware. If the local area improves and the amount per square foot goes up in your area then the landlord might have the right to increase your rent to the same as your neighbors.

I know, I had a shop in a quiet town. Sensible rent but the town started to build a new shopping center with rents 5 times more than mine. Rent review time came at the same time and I lost the shop and home and car and and and. I just couldnt pay the higher rent. Then to top it all the shopping center opened and the rents were only 3 times mine. But my contract stood at 5 times the original. That was 21 years ago. My old shop still stands empty as a tax break for the owners.
I wish you all the luck Warren but be careful.

Earl.

[Denise Goodfellow]

I would have thought that you have the upper hand slightly.

With so many firms going bust, I have seen many a unit or shop empty for 12 months, this is bad news to a landlord.

As a landlady myself, we would rather lose a few £`s a month and have the place rented out for a longer period of time, than get full rent only to find it empty again in 6 months time.

I`d just be honest and say its a big step forward for you and you`re unsure and ask for a reduction.

[Warren Beard]

Wow thanks guys and girls for the help, I got a nice list of questions to ask now and should be in a good position after to make an informed decision.

At this stage I only know the monthly rent and the size of the unit, he did tell me it is metered so know that is not included in the cost and obviously all the other bits and pieces like phone line and broadband etc. Also there is a £200 annual maintenance fee to pay. They have told me it will be re-painted and a few repairs to be done outside and even suggested building an office inside for me if it was a deal breaker because there was no office so they are willing to help get me in which is nice but I don’t think they are desperate as this is the only unit available because the old tenant moved in to one of their bigger newly built units so that’s where I lose some leverage.

It’s going to be interesting tomorrow but was very surprised when I heard the cost for the space it has, I know what they say about "if it sounds too good to be true…….." but this one just might be one of those lucky ones so keep fingers crossed, time will tell 😉

cheers

Warren

[John Gregson]

It all depends who owns the unit – if its a large national company then I doubt whether they’d budge on price but you’ll definitely get some free days/month for moving in etc. If its a local guy/company then its worth a try and see if they’ll budge on price.

If its up to you to sort out the elec/gas, shop around and see who does the best deal – they might want you to contract in for 2 years though!.

Don’t forget to ask if there’s an upkeep charge, who’s in charge of the painting/gardening etc, and if its valued at over £6000 (i think) what the rates are.

If you do take the unit there might be double rent for the 1st month – good luck and don’t forget to take all the meter readings before you move in.

Cheers John

[Martin Pearson]

Warren, when I said to check about Gas/electric I wasn’t expecting it to be included in your rent. The unit I had was metered but I had to buy it through the landlord and couldn’t sort out my own deals for electric. Their price per unit was much higher than I could have got myself if I had been able to shop around.

What sort of size is it and what is the access like?? Something I forgot to mention was what is it like for getting vehicles in and out. and if it has a roller door is it power or manual.

[Phill Fenton]

"Looking for a unit – what should I ask?"

The main question to ask yourself is can you afford it?

In can be very difficult to generate enough income when working on your own to cover all of the overheads and still make enough profit to have a business that is viable. However, the sums quickly work in your favour when there are two or more of you working from it. Do your plans include taking someone else on or are you planning to work alone?

There’s no doubt that working from a unit will allow you to do much more than you can working from home. Bringing vehicles inside to work on is an obvious example.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do 😀

[Warren Beard]

Thanks guys,

It has a roller door so can get vans in and I think it’s manual but can check tomorrow. It’s just under 1800sq feet and is very well priced. It is split in half and one side has a painted concrete floor with an entrance door and the other is bare concrete with a roller door. It has a toilet and a shower room.

They are not a huge national company but have a few sites around the area.

It’s only the rates I don’t know about really that could be a big amount (I have no idea what to even expect) the annual rent is about £8k

Phill, I always remember you making this comment a few times and agree 100%, my wife will come in and join me full time, she is good at sales and administration and is already on a website course to help with the website and marketing of the business. I will also try get her a bit more hands on with helping in production and printing where possible (probably can’t lift full rolls of media on her own)

I don’t do things half measure and am a risk taker but like to make them calculated risks, the help and advice I got from here when starting up has got me here and trust it to move me forward as well. I believe I can do it and if you don’t try you will never know, it won’t be easy but then what is? The rewards will hopefully be worth it.

I hope it all falls in to place.

cheers

Warren

[Martin Pearson]

1800 sq feet is quite a big size unit for what you are doing, I would be looking for something a bit smaller I think although it’s really hard to tell sometimes. The unit I have just now is between 1000 & 1100 sqft and I find that to be big enough for what I need. My rent is also a lot less than yours will be but that will be down to location as well as the actual size. Where I am in Fife is a bit of a blackspot with high unemployment which keeps costs down but also means I can’t charge as much so it’s swings and rounder-bouts. Like Phill says check you can afford it as you will probably be looking at a substantial extra cost each month.
Don’t know about your area but worth checking on rate rebates and schemes available. The small business relief scheme has gone up here I believe but has been replaced with a similar scheme, not 100% sure all I do know is that I just had to fill in a simple form and don’t pay any rates at all where I am and know other people who get at least a 50% reduction. You need to look for yourself as I don’t think Councils volunteer this sort of info.
Is your Wife still earning at the moment ?? If she is and she is going to come on board with you will you lose money from her income ?? Something else to think about. What ever you decide I wish you the best of luck Warren, have watched you grow into a very competent signmaker over the last few years.

[RayRosher]

Go for it M8
Not sure how rates are worked out, But one company that had units told me that the rates are based on 50% of the rental value ie if your rent is £8000 then another £4000 on top of that for rates this was about 5 years ago mind,
What they also told me but i never took them up on the unit was that they would tell the rates department that the rent was half of the amount I was going to give them bringing the rates down, Dishonest yeah! but apparently their are ways of adjusting the money for other things.

[Stuart Miller]

I started in a unit but soon gave it up as the cost killed me. Now work from home and making money.

All the advice above is good.
Make sure you have an opt out.
Consider getting a surveyor to give it a once over if you are responsible for maintenance as they spot things you might not notice.
The costs which crippled me which I now save were

Rent £500 / month
Rates £300/month
Electric £30/month
Insurance £200/month.
Mileage £200/month !! (I lived 22 miles from my unit)

That ads up to £1,500 a month (which now pays me a wage.)

If you have a unit that you bring customers vehicles into then full motor traders insurance is required, to drive and work on them, which for me was a staggering £2,500 a year.

So if your margins are roughly 30% then to pay those sort of overheads and stay at the same level as you are before taking a unit then you need around £30,000 more business.

just one example!

[Bob Clarkson]

I have to agree with that Stuart, and unless you’re intending to turn it into a company and employ at least a couple of people you’ll probably be financially better off working out of a double garage.

It is cheaper to have a stunning house, with double garage and a pool, than a modest home and a large rented unit. You also get to keep and enjoy the house, units are only for when vast expansion makes it unavoidable in my book, but then you take on a load more risks.

[Peter Normington]

Warren
my advice for what its worth,
rates will be next to nothing with small business allowance based on rent.
I would try to negotiate a lower rent in return for a long lease, and put in an option to buy, and also to sub let,
If you have the confidence and willing to take a risk, you will be holding the cards a few years down the line.
If you need to expand you can move out and make a profit by sub letting, or buy and make more,
if you stay happy with the size of your unit, then buy it, then you have a very viable business to sell on with assets.
Easy for me to say, but if I was as young as you, and knew what I know know,….
Peter

[Phill Fenton]

How did you get on today Warren? (I hope my previous post didn’t put you off)

I suspect your business is at a turning point and I do believe you would benefit from operating from an industrial unit if you can get the figures to match up..

£8,000 for an 1800 sq. ft. unit is well below market value and I would be suspicious as to why it was so cheap? Dig deep and check it all out to make sure there are no hidden dangers before you decide to take this one on.

Alternatively, Have you approached your local council? You may well find they have "starter" units available that would suit your needs without any long term commitment from you. Councils have a vested interest in encouraging small business to develop so why not exploit whatever schemes thay have on offer?

[Martin Cole]

Sounds a nice place Warren. £4.40 a sq ft is pretty cheap and as Phill says there could be a reason why.

Go onto your local councils website and you will be able to find the ratable value, I don’t know if it’s too large for the 50% small business rate relief. If not the rates could kill the deal stone dead.

Lots of great advice, mine would definitely be to negotiate a get out clause if a long lease.

Good Luck..exciting times 😕

[Warren Beard]

Appreciate all the help, comments and advice.

Saw the unit today and the space is great, it is divided into 2 sections with the front piece having the roller door that will fit high roof vans in with a lot of space either side (door is in the middle) The back half has a painted floor and a toilet/washroom.

It’s no show piece but is water tight and solid construction (they are old converted chicken sheds) They are part of about another 6 large units (each unit is about 5000sqf divided up) and it is fully occupied. They are properly converted and the same estate has built about another dozen large modern units on the next plot. It’s not in the middle of a farm land or anything like that and they are part of other businesses as well and they have been units for a long long time, I’m just trying to explain them so you don’t think they are cheap run down sheds in the middle of nowhere :lol1:

Yes it sounds too good to be true but just could be true and seems it is, besides the rates I have all the other details and will negotiate next week. I already have a discount on the rent (as they are actually a customer of mine) They might give me 1 month rent free or a referred payment scheme, the issue is they have 4 industrial estates and this is the only unit available (even in my town which has almost nothing anyway and the ones they have are taken and a fortune) so they don’t need to negotiate with me as there will be somebody else willing to take it, they know me and like me and that’s why they are giving me first crack at it and a discount.

Pro’s:
• Includes waste removal
• The metered electricity and water is done at the base rate that he can prove to me as they make no profit on it.
• No additional costs besides £200 a year which covers maintenance and up keep and repairs (unless it is damage cause directly by me)
• He won’t take a deposit because it is me and we do business together
• My insurance won’t change as long as it has the correct locks etc
• Can get large vans inside
• office is at the back and has insulated wall so heating should be reduced
• Has a large door going in to office as well for ease of access to move large equipment in.
• He will include as much lighting as I want
• he will put in as many power pints as I need
• It has 3 phase power as well
• He will repaint the entire inside (I will try get him to repaint the floor)
• He will also clean up the outside which has a bit of peeling paint etc but isn’t bad.

Con’s
• No passing trade as it’s around the back but hopefully can put some signs up.
• Rent will be reviewed yearly and this is because it is only a 12 month lease, I am still to discuss this further with him but it is also a big of a stress relief as well as I am not tied in for along period, I put it under con’s as it’s is more of a con than a pro but still has a bit of pro to only being tied in for 12 months (again I am very sure he is not out to screw me, he has many long standing tenants and I know him and doesn’t seem the type, you have to trust some people some times :lol1: )
• There are no windows … at all 😮 Even between the front fitting bay and back office area so pretty isolated but clean, bright and big. I will ask if he can put some windows in as it’s just a timber insulated partition, he did say he will build some an office in the back part but I think we will need the whole area so not needed, hopefully he will do the windows instead so we can see in to the front section.
• I won’t list everything but obviously the increased costs now having to work from a unit and a home with telephone, broadband, etc etc, extra petrol…… As mentioned we do rent a large house now but I can’t swing a mouse in here let alone a cat (I’ll post some pictures for a laugh) If I don’t move I will have to put my living room upstairs in my sons bedroom and move him to a smaller room so I can utilise the dining room as I already use the living room for my business, so we will have to move to a smaller place to offset some of the rent as this house will be far too big for us anyway…. and lastly …….
• I have to work with my wife (joking :lol1: )

So that’s where I am, I’m waiting for him to send me the rate value etc so I know what that will be then find out what my relief will be and if falls in where we are willing to risk it it could be a possibility.

Like I said it does sound too good to be true, a bit of help because we know each other but other than that something like this in my town just doesn’t come up often, right place at the right time things really.

I’ll keep you updated.

Thanks again

Warren

[Hugh Potter]

quote Martin:

Warren I will start you off, firstly I think it is accepted by most landlords these days that people will want some sort of rent free period to allow them to settle in. I would certainly be trying to get as much as possible from them.

i tried that approach and lost the unit due to delays (aa whole 5 days) in putting another offer in, we were even offering to pay a year up front. to rub salt into the wound, another signy from out of the area eventually moved in.

Warren, if you want it, and the unit is perfect for you, don;t risk losing it if there’s other interest.

jmho.

ps, there was a lengthy thread about all this that I started about a year ago. edit: just tried searching for it for you.. unless it’s archived, it’s gone 🙁

Hugh

[Chris Wool]

if you know any of the people around there go and talk to them about the unit quality. main thing is roof insulation of older shed type buildings. or you will get condensation drips all over the place.

you need a area for the printer and vinyl stock that you can stabilize the environment. because you have worked from home you may not have noticed the problems you will encounter, overnight temp get very low.

does the surrounding business bring potential customer on site ?.

[Martin Pearson]

Hugh, maybe things work differently down there but I didn’t put an offer in for my unit, went and had a look at it, arranged a meeting with the landlord which was a couple of days latter and at the meeting I just said I was interested but could they give me some help as I had a lot of expense moving in. They said best we can do is a couple of months rent free and I said OK.

Simple as that, not sure how it works down your way but if it’s much different then I would agree with you, if it suits Warren’s purpose and there is a risk of someone else taking it then don’t hang about if you can help it.

If the Landlord has 4 other industrial estates and is still expanding then there is a real opportunity for more work. As a tenant then it is quite likely they will use you for most if not all their work if your prices are reasonable and you could always ask if it would be OK for you to leave some business cards and info in their offices so when people came to look at units your card was there to be seen.

[Warren Beard]

quote Chris Wool:

if you know any of the people around there go and talk to them about the unit quality. main thing is roof insulation of older shed type buildings. or you will get condensation drips all over the place.

you need a area for the printer and vinyl stock that you can stabilize the environment. because you have worked from home you may not have noticed the problems you will encounter, overnight temp get very low.

does the surrounding business bring potential customer on site ?.

very good point Chris, I’ll have to definitely check that.

Yes there is lots of potential business on the estate but I will have to approach them as this unit is a bit out of site unfortunately, but the landlord as mentioned will definitely mention me and let me leave cards etc there I’m sure.

cheers

[Warren Beard]

@ Hugh, I won’t lose it mate, he will hold it for me until I let him know, obviously he will give me a deadline to decide but he won’t give it away from under my feet….. I hope 😉

He knows I’m very interested and he also wants me there and like I said we do business together so he is not trying to shaft me.

cheers

Warren

[Hugh Potter]

quote Martin:

Hugh, maybe things work differently down there but I didn’t put an offer in for my unit, went and had a look at it, arranged a meeting with the landlord which was a couple of days latter and at the meeting I just said I was interested but could they give me some help as I had a lot of expense moving in. They said best we can do is a couple of months rent free and I said OK.

.

I had to deal with a letting agent, no contact with the landlord at all, wasn’t allowed to contact them either -I asked.

i asked for a slight reduction in rent and 90 days free, in return we’d take a 3yr lease and pay first year up front, that was declined, i forget what the 2nd offer was but it was nye on the asking.

agent was not replying to my enquiries after a while, the unit was empty for months, when i did get around to finding the landlords details i was too late, the new tenatnt moved in the next day! had a chat with the new tenant and wished them well there. -the boss said he comes on here occsasionally but i’m afraid i can’t recall his name / business name now 😳 turned out he knew the landlord and went direct, i’d no probs with that, just the way it goes i guess!

to be honest, i’m busy enough as it is, average monthly takings are always steadily increasing but it’s managable still. other than a unit being easier to make larger signs and fit vehicles indoors, i don;t really think it would be much of a bonus right now, in hindsight anyways, just an £8k a year mill stone. i’ve got places to do vehicles when the weather’s not playing ball and am looking into a possible sub let situation at the mo too, the best bit is the first years rent is free when i do his unit signs and estate signs, bargain 😉 I digress..

anyways,

best of luck Warren, i think we joined around the same time, in terms of size i’ve not had ambitions to grow too much but, I’ve watched you work hard and stride ahead, you’ve come a long way in the past few years, proud of ya dude!

[Neil Davey]

Hi Warren, it does sound like a great opportunity.
Being a smaller private landlord is beneficial to you as if like mine they are not, as you say, out to screw you.
Rates, we don’t pay any at the moment as our rateable value is below £6000. You may be lucky in this respect but even over 6K it’s on a sliding scale.
Look here:
http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/pdf/1517622.pdf
or type your postcode into the Valuation Office Agency website.
Also if your on a 12 month lease you must know if you can afford the first year and you’ll obviously get a better idea through this period.
My unit is 1000 sqft and rent wise equates well to what your paying. My unit is 40ish years old but in good condition. So I don’t necessarily think yours is too expensive and we’re just off the one way ring road around our towns large and very busy shopping centre.
From what I see of you, you are very capable and have built up a fantastic business, you obviously have a good client base and you do some lovely work. So I think to keep your enthusiasm for the business it may well be time to go for it.
You may not make millions but if your passionate about signage and you do this for the buzz of making signs and being artistic everyday and as long as you earn your wages every week everything else is a bonus.

[Stuart Miller]

I eventually got small business rate reductions. But not in the first year, when they were most needed. In my area it was only given if you applied before the start of the tax year. As I opened my unit in June I got no rate relief until the next April at the start of the tax year. So worth considering the date you open and getting a rate reduction application in early.

quote :

My insurance won’t change as long as it has the correct locks etc

Are you sure about this. Not sure about your circumstances, and business insurance at the moment, but it seems strange that an insurance company is willing to add a business unit and all the extra cover that may entail for no extra charge to a policy that presently does not cover a unit.
Insurance seems such a minefield, and needs checking. You say you insurance needs no change, that seems strange. The owner should have the building insured but you still need business insurance to operate from the premises and as soon as an insurer hears you work on vehicles they instantly think motor traders insurance. I have had discussions with both brokers and insurance companies as to what that constitutes.
Sign Writing on the outside seems OK as part of a trade which is not directly associated with work on the vehicle. But you must not drive the vehicle.
Tinting inside the windows was a grey area and I have had to convince several firms that it is no different to signage on the outside.
As soon as you drive a vehicle in and out of your unit it seems you need motor traders insurance.
As soon as you store customers vehicles overnight in your unit you need motor traders insurance.
As soon as you operate premises where customers bring vehicles too it seems you need motor traders insurance.
Not sure what you have but all the brokers and companies I talked too were quite adamant about this.
What if you have a £50,000 motor in your unit and it either gets stolen or damaged?
I had to follow all sorts of rules such as keeping my hand tools in a locked container, keeping customers car keys in a locked safe when I was away from the premises, etc.
Normal motor insurance does not cover you to get behind the wheel of a customers vehicle.

[Warren Beard]

Yes I spoke to my insurers (Sign Elite) and they said nothing will change, only the address. I’m already covered for customers vehicles on my premises but not to drive them. The only stipulation was it must has 5 lever locks on all the doors, no alarms required either.

I’m not clued up on insurance etc, I explain my circumstances and they give me the policy, I would have thought if a customer left his vehicle with you and it got stolen then his insurance company would pay, what if he was parked outside a pub?

I’m not sure but based on what my insurer told me that the only difference is the address change as everything is already covered.

cheers

Warren

[Peter Normington]

quote Warren Beard:

Yes I spoke to my insurers (Sign Elite) and they said nothing will change, only the address. I’m already covered for customers vehicles on my premises but not to drive them. The only stipulation was it must has 5 lever locks on all the doors, no alarms required either.

I’m not clued up on insurance etc, I explain my circumstances and they give me the policy, I would have thought if a customer left his vehicle with you and it got stolen then his insurance company would pay, what if he was parked outside a pub?

I’m not sure but based on what my insurer told me that the only difference is the address change as everything is already covered.

cheers

Warren

Nope
How it works is this.
If a van is left with you for work to be carried out you are legally resposible for it,
it is now your liability, the owner may well claim on his insurance for the theft, but they in turn will be claiming from you and your insurance, not just for the vehicle loss, but very likely for the costs of hiring a vehicle whilst the claim is going through.
and any additional costs incurred, such as excess and loss of no claims bonus.

If a client leaves a vehicle outside your premises, and you drive it into the unit, you will most likely need motor insurance, (trade policy)
I have had quotes from sign elite in the past, and they seem to avoid this aspect of the insurance, yes they will insure the value of a vehicle, but not the unisured losses, which can ammount to more. and if they do insure you to drive a customers vehicle, they charge quite a lot.

Think about this, if you took your van to a garage for service, and it got nicked, would you be happy just to claim from your insurance. and loose your NCB and excess?

Peter

[Phill Fenton]

I agree with Peter.

However, you only find out how good your insurance is if you come to make a claim. You may think your covered in all aspects only to find they wriggle out on some technicality you hadn’t thought of. 🙄

Probably the best form of insurance is to set up as a limited company. Then if someone tries to sue the business (in a worst case scenario) you can dissolve the company without being personally bankrupted

[Hugh Potter]

most garages i know of all have signs saying "no liability accepted for loss or damage to vehicles whilst left on the premises". this doesn’t include anything they might do to it but more so if someone breaks into it while it’s parked outside etc, they are not held liable. the vehicle is insured while on the premises though,

I do not drive customers vehicles as a rule, certainly no more than a few feet anyways. the few regular customers for whom i do drive are aware of the situation (ie, i cannot justify the cost of a traders policy for the sake of moving a few vehicles a year, i have two regular customers who have put me on their policy though, they make me do a delivery on the way back, i just happen to fit some decals on the way round!

if i had a workshop though, it would have to have cover for vehicles.

[Peter Normington]

Hugh disclaimers are no excuse, and dont count in law,
take your computer to pc world for a service, they loose it, so you would just accept that?

Peter

[Kevin Flowers]

Warren
double check for your insurance, i moved from a house dedicated to the business into a 1800 sqft unit. Signelite said not a problem insurance would stay the same. However when i started reading through the policy i discovered that although i had an alarm multiple looks on everything they asked i was not covered because the alarm didn’t have a dialer to inform me it had been triggered, none of this was explained to me. It was only that i took the time to read through the policy, also other clauses also came to light which affected my employee liability which i sorted at the same time.
I have all my liability insurances with Signelite and also my vehicle insurance allowing driving of customers vehicles (this is not a standard Motor Traders Policy) for business purposes which is normally required if you keep vehicles in the unit overnight.

Kev

[Warren Beard]

cheers guys. Like I said I am covered at the moment for vehicles on my premises so presume that area of it is covered, I suppose I need to ask the question about it being parked outside my unit (or house) instead 😕

I don’t plan driving any of them and will avoid that if too costly.

I am in the process of going Limited so I guess I will have that but hope it would never come to that.

I specifically asked Sign Elite about alarms etc and she said no as long as I had the correct locks on the doors, contents are covered already so there wouldn’t be any extra costs. Obviously if I wanted to add driving of vehicles etc then it would change but I see where they are coming from, why would it change just because you move from one premises to another without changing any details.

My way of thinking has always been a problem to myself as I see things as black and white and other (insurance companies in particular I suppose) see everything as grey 😕 If your vehicle is insured for theft and it gets stolen then the insurer pays out, whether it’s at your home, the pub, the supermarket or in my unit. I know it doesn’t work like that but it should IMHO. Any neglect obviously is different as blame can shift to a degree but if you were parked outside a pub until early hours and your car got stolen would the pub have to pay up 😕

But yes it’s true, you only know how good your policy is when you need to claim so what else can you do?

cheers

Warren

[Peter Normington]

difference is, you have not left your car for the pub to put signs on it, or repair it.
if you are happy that you are covered then no problem,
being limited is no get out,
like i said earlier, reverse the situation, if you left your van with a sign company, to apply decals, and they "lost it" would you just accept it was down to you? and not pursue for any compensation?

Peter

[Phill Fenton]

quote Warren Beard:

But yes it’s true, you only know how good your policy is when you need to claim so what else can you do?

cheers

Warren

Exactly.

I have had the same policy with the same company for more than ten years now. Last summer when our van was written off by another driver we made our first claim…

The first thing my insurance company asked was for me to provide evidence that I was in the motor trade (My first hint that I was in for a long uphill struggle) – Funny how they never asked for this in all the ten years they had happily been taking my insurance premiums from me.

Long story short – we are still trying to settle our claim that goes all the way back to last September.

This has led me to question all the other insurances we have in place – public liability etc. what good are they if the insurance companies are only interested in wriggling out of them. e.g what if a member of the public is hurt by a sign that comes down that you had installed? You would expect your insurance to cover you but will it? You won’t know for sure until you have to test the system with an actual claim – and by then it may be too late. If the insurers don’t pay out you then become personally responsible which means you could be taken for every penny you have…unless of course you are trading as a Limited company which means the company gets sued and not you personally. Worst case scenario… you dissolve the company and start again (but you still have your personal wealth).

[Peter Normington]

lessons to be learnt then Phil.
when you say your van was written off by another driver, was it being driven by someone not in your employment?

Peter

[Phill Fenton]

No it was someone driving another van – they were responsible for causing the accident, yet despite this we are still having problems recovering our uninsured losses that resulted from the accident.

[Peter Normington]

so your van was on a traders policy?

Peter

[Phill Fenton]

My policy covers me for "any vehicle under my custody or control". We claimed off our own insurance who in turn claimed from the other drivers insurance policy. We have settled for the van itself but are still trying to claim our "uninsured losses" back.

[Hugh Potter]

quote Peter Normington:

Hugh disclaimers are no excuse, and dont count in law,
take your computer to pc world for a service, they loose it, so you would just accept that?

Peter

you’re probably right while the vehicle is inside the premises but i recall many years ago having light bar and four very expensive cebié spotlights stolen from the front of one of my 2.8i capris while it was parked on the road outside the bodyshop while awaiting a repair to the door, this was common practice when their car park was full, no big secured compounds like now! this was early 90’s i guess. they were quite simply ‘not liable’ and my insurance confirmed i hadn’t a leg to stand, cost me over £400 to replace!

i would like to think things have changed now though. hope you’re right!

[Peter Normington]

the only way you can do that is with a traders policy, as I have said before,
the problem is, traders policies do not normally include uninsured losses, in fact most comprehensive cover does not, it is an add on, sometimes included sometimes not.
I had an accident last year, not my fault, but I had "legal protection cover" my insurance paid for the repairs, the extra cover pursued the third party for my excess and no claims losses. I was provided with a like for like vehicle whilst mine was being repaired. but it was all in the policy details, so you do need to read what you are and not entitled to.

Peter

[Peter Normington]

quote Hugh Potter:

quote Peter Normington:

Hugh disclaimers are no excuse, and dont count in law,
take your computer to pc world for a service, they loose it, so you would just accept that?

Peter

you’re probably right while the vehicle is inside the premises but i recall many years ago having light bar and four very expensive cebié spotlights stolen from the front of one of my 2.8i capris while it was parked on the road outside the bodyshop while awaiting a repair to the door, this was common practice when their car park was full, no big secured compounds like now! this was early 90’s i guess. they were quite simply ‘not liable’ and my insurance confirmed i hadn’t a leg to stand, cost me over £400 to replace!

i would like to think things have changed now though. hope you’re right!

well that proves my point, your insurers did not pay out, they obviously thought it was the bodyshops liability, you should have sued them…

Peter

[Hugh Potter]

quote Peter Normington:

[

well that proves my point, your insurers did not pay out, they obviously thought it was the bodyshops liability, you should have sued them…

Peter

i possibly wasn’t clear, my broker said that they were not liable, something to do with the vehicle was in a ‘public’ area, public defined by "anywhere the public could walk" if i recall. had it been in or on their premises then i could have sued, although they still didn’t think i’d win unless it was in their locked unit. it’s all a bit foggy now to be fair. i remember it wasn’t worth claiming for them, £250 excess and a big premium the following year if i had.

the lights were stolen in the middle of the day, at night the cars we all in the yard (well, badly fenced bit by todays standards!). worst of it was that i was working not 1/4 mile away!

[Peter Normington]

Yeah.
I understand, excess and all that,
But it is very important to read and understand the terms and conditions of the policy,
Phill has had problems, and that is why I am just highlighting that you need to know
EXACTLY what gets paid for in the event of a claim.
Peter

[Hugh Potter]

quote Peter Normington:

Yeah.
I understand, excess and all that,
But it is very important to read and understand the terms and conditions of the policy,
Phill has had problems, and that is why I am just highlighting that you need to know
EXACTLY what gets paid for in the event of a claim.
Peter

I do understand Peter, In fact, this thread has reminded me that there are a few tings i wanted to double check on my current van policy.

it’s so restrictive that pretty soon i’m fitting an extra row of seats, come the next reneweal it’ll be reclassified and insured as a personal vehicle with commercial use -as long as my broker can figure it out. the extra bit of policy is worth it to have my old ‘car’ comprehensive privileges back. I wish there was a company out there that did custom made policies for sensible money, they’d get my £££’s every year if there was.

eg, i used various estates and mpv’s on a personal policy with commercial use added for years with no issues, i get various add ons for free and am able to drive other vehicles 3rd party but, buy a van and while i’m covered for personal use, i cannot ‘borrow’ other vehicles as i can with a car policy, yet my usage is still the same! crazy.

anyways, i think we’re veering off topic!

[Stuart Miller]

quote Warren Beard:

cheers guys. Like I said I am covered at the moment for vehicles on my premises so presume that area of it is covered, I suppose I need to ask the question about it being parked outside my unit (or house) instead 😕

I don’t plan driving any of them and will avoid that if too costly.

I am in the process of going Limited so I guess I will have that but hope it would never come to that.

I specifically asked Sign Elite about alarms etc and she said no as long as I had the correct locks on the doors, contents are covered already so there wouldn’t be any extra costs. Obviously if I wanted to add driving of vehicles etc then it would change but I see where they are coming from, why would it change just because you move from one premises to another without changing any details.

My way of thinking has always been a problem to myself as I see things as black and white and other (insurance companies in particular I suppose) see everything as grey 😕 If your vehicle is insured for theft and it gets stolen then the insurer pays out, whether it’s at your home, the pub, the supermarket or in my unit. I know it doesn’t work like that but it should IMHO. Any neglect obviously is different as blame can shift to a degree but if you were parked outside a pub until early hours and your car got stolen would the pub have to pay up 😕

But yes it’s true, you only know how good your policy is when you need to claim so what else can you do?

cheers

Warren

The difference between leaving it in a Pub car park and your own is as Peter has mentioned. When it is left for you to do work it is left in your control and custody.
The difference between leaving a car at your home is that at your home wouldn’t be insured and the drivers own policy would cover it for theft.
If you leave a vehicle inside a unit then it is very much in your custody and your responsibility.
Many keep mentioning that they don’t drive customer vehicles. We are not talking about on the road just moving it into a new position is classed as driving it.
So if you working on a vehicle in your unit and have to finish it the next day. What do you do if your insurance does not cover vehicle theft or driving?
Who drives it in or out of the unit?

[Martin Pearson]

Warren, like others have said have a good read through your insurance policy don’t just phone and ask as they do seem to give out inaccurate information over the phone.
People keep going on about driving customers vehicles, I use to have a motor traders policy which was expensive although not anywhere like the £2500 Stuart has mentioned but that was a long time ago.

Finding out what suits you best is always difficult but now I don’t do as much work I don’t drive customers vehicles at all. Customer drops van off and I get them to stick it in the unit. No need for me to drive it at all, don’t need to move it as I can get all the way round without having to turn it or anything. I am insured for customers vehicles while on the premises but it’s not a motor traders policy.

I can understand why you would be happy to believe that nothing will change but even the location of the unit can alter the costs if your unit has a different post code insurance rates could easily be different. You could also argue that your home is less likely to be burgled as you are there at night most of the time.

[Warren Beard]

I’ll get something in writing from them but will discus my needs in more detail with them.

As for the unit address they didn’t even ask where it would be and just said it wouldn’t change, it’s actually in walking distance from where I live now so same post code area :lol1: (although will have to move to reduce home rent as we rent a big house for all my stuff 😉 )

I know I’m definitely covered for vehicles in my possession (but will check how far the cover goes) will have to find out more about driving it, this unit will also be big enough o get all around a van so no need to move it at all, I know there might be an exception as it might blocking the doorway for larger deliveries but will have to see once I stick a van inside.

cheers

Warren

[Martin Pearson]

Warren I find that very hard to believe as certain areas have a higher risk and insurance takes this in to account. To say things wouldn’t change without even asking where the unit was is completely wrong IMO.

You can always work round things like deliveries as long as your not doing vans every day of the week so you never have to move them. Like I said before I am insured for them but not to drive them.

Still think it will be a good move for you as far as building the business goes and if you are going to save a lot of money by going limited this will probably help towards the extra costs of running a unit. Some good advice given here but at the end of the day only you know what is right for you and I’m sure you will make the right choice.