[Bob Clarkson]

The value of money had to appear to go down, because people weren’t spending enough. I don’t mean borrowing enough, I mean spending enough of what they already had. New money needed to be freed up, making people believe it wasn’t worth holding onto is the best way of achieving that.

If someone had for instance 50k in the bank, they’re likely to get at best £30 a week interest for it, less if on 40% tax. So what do they do, keep it, buy a new car and have a couple of decent holidays, treat the kids/grand kids. We now are developing a situation where that starts to seem logical.

If you buy something now, be it another property, classic car, build an extension etc, you will have your asset in one form or another even if it’s value drops. When this all hits the fan, so to speak some things will be very expensive, but some things will be ridiculous bargains. There will only be a certain number of people who can clear them up.

[Bob Clarkson]

So bit of each really, I wasn’t 100% which way you’d gone, as you’ve made it your own. It really is nice stuff, painting is the only way to get that look. I tell customers it can be re-created in vinyl, but we know it can’t.

I get where you’re coming from with the coachlining, I do very little now, and where with lettering you get back in the swing in seconds, lining you can’t. I used to do lots of cars, and bike tanks, then I had a gap of a couple of years and went straight onto a Harley tank which I lined straight on to base coat. Knowing one little mistake and it’s a respray gets the nerves going.

Anyway, lovely stuff and I’ll post some of my old work soon.

[Bob Clarkson]

The sign business is my hobby, I’ve not done it full time for over 15yrs, and even then I was doing property development along side. I have a couple of core businesses, and I speculate. I’m not doing fortune telling, all the factors are there. This has being in the making for a few years now, there’s money to be made again to the degree there was in the 80s. I’ve just got 20 odd years more experience now.

You don’t always have to predict what’s going to happen in the future, but you do have to have a grip on exactly what’s happening now.

I’ve spent hours upon hours over the years learning this, and I had a proven mentor. I can assure you it pays off time and time again, hold your nerve and don’t be greedy is the balance.

We can only earn so much money with our hands, a bit of guts and a bit of knowledge makes a difference.

I agree people are resilient, but the next ten years won’t be the same as the last.

With respect to people in the know, I’m fed a few crumbs, obviously there’s people far better at this than me, but I do quite ok.

[Bob Clarkson]

You’re on the money Phill, we’re soon to be in more than enough trouble. It’s going to be interesting, but possibly expensive. Money to be made though. I’ve been prepping for this for some time, economy is more than a passing interest to me.

[Bob Clarkson]

I guess one way to gage it is, how much better off did everyone become when it dropped to 15%?? Products in general is getting cheaper across the board, the lift in vat will be swallowed by the drop in costs. As a country we are set to be hit from other angles, this will be the least of our worries.

[Bob Clarkson]

Neil, I know it would be impossible to freehand the oval, so in days gone by we’d have had to drawn it, so to use the plotter now is obvious. What I did wonder though was, do you reckon you save a lot of time drawing the letters? Does it work out quicker than snapping lines and freehanding it?

I’m assuming you drew the lettering as oppose to computer as it’s struck a balance vinyls can’t ever seem to quite get, sorry so many questions, was just deciding to do something that’s all.

Also a little curious on how you coachline, I don’t personally know anyone who can do it anymore, and it’s a shame to loose a skill.

Just see you’d posted shane, have you done anymore grain and varnish?, I am in bewilderment as to how anyone can grain that well, amazing stuff.

[Bob Clarkson]

Didn’t mean it quite as literal as that! I was more trying to put the emphasis on "deal on a handshake" days of business are fast becoming a thing of the past.

We’re all out to make a living one way or another, it’s just standards and code of conduct for want of a better word are fast slipping. Trust in business, or at least relatively low cost business, which mostly ours is, people used to hate anyone to think they couldn’t afford to, or wouldn’t pay. These days it’s not uncommon for a so called business/tradesman to knock another for a minimal amount of money. It was more a pointer to be aware of than a slating of humanity.

[Bob Clarkson]

Very nice.

[Bob Clarkson]

Fundamentally, people are not nice, lots of people only appear nice because their true personality would make them socially unacceptable. Interestingly, no one will ever see themselves as one of those people. To add to this, people are becoming generally more aggressive, and far harder to explain things to. I’ve never really had problems with debts, I’ve probably lost around £100 in the last 25yrs, but I am finding people are harder to communicate with.

[Bob Clarkson]

I tend to go 50% deposit with new customers, that way it all seems quite friendly and not distrusting. I feel it gives the indication you’re a working person who needs a cash- flow, above board, honest and fair. If my potential new customer comes across as a chancer, I increase the percentage a little. The remainder of the money on collection is the important bit. If someone has given you half up front, they are unlikely to not come back.

You have to be distrusting to get on in business, but you must never appear to be mistrusting to get on in business. I think that makes sense 😕

[Bob Clarkson]

Very tidy and memorable logo, infinitely better than before. Bit of quality always wins out on a plastering of nasty layout.

[Bob Clarkson]

Slightly off the point here, but there’s a lot of mention of recommended temps, wet application and warranty. Has anyone actually done a job, had the vinyl fail and the manufacturers hold their hands up, admit it was their fault, replace the wasted material and stand the cost of the applicators time and inconvenience?? My guess will be no. If they have it’s also more likely to be good will, or buying power that has influenced it.

I’ve only ever had one roll of faulty vinyl, it was 3M and the fault was obvious as soon as I cut the first letter (it had virtually no adhesive)

At the risk of knocking us all, signmaking is now such a hit and miss everyone have a go industry, there is unlikely to be any company stand any real responsibility.

[Bob Clarkson]

Stuart, I apply like that pretty much all the time, even at 0.5 degrees above freezing it’ll work. If you have high humidity and can’t guarantee getting the panel completely dry it’s perfect.

What he was actually meaning is, if the humidity is really bad, you’ve got masses on condensation, it’s raining or indeed snowing you can carry on working. I try and avoid it, but you can write a van in the rain with no problems. Apart from being sub zero, or blowing an absolute gale, I’ve never missed an outside job through weather conditions. I’ve also never had lettering fail or had any complaints. I do signwork more as enjoyment than to earn a living, if it gave me any hassle whatsoever I wouldn’t bother doing it at all.

I have to admit he was very slow, but he was putting more effort into the explanations than the job. I would take less than half that time. This is why I’ve no intention of swapping to dry application. The vans I write like this always look 100% at the end of their 4yr leases, some of the shops i’ve done like it are fine after 10yrs.

As has been said, everyone’s intitled to work how they choose, but don’t knock this application medhod till you’ve mastered it. I’ve watch a mass of youtube clips done dry, and I still think my way is way faster.

[Bob Clarkson]

I have a glance through ebay now and again at them, but I mustn’t start a serious search, because I’m only going to finish up buying one. I only really keep the buggy now because our kids love it.

There was a General Lee on ebay a week or so ago, I was starting to be able to actually justify needing it.

It’s the sound and the raw power, turbos, multi-valves etc are ok, but a V8 with a Holley is unbeatable.

Damn, I just done a Youtube search and shouldn’t of! I’m now doing a web search to find something. You’re only young once, and even though I no longer am, I’ll pretend.

[Bob Clarkson]

You are of course right with that statement Hugh, but it has a V5, stating exactly what it is, and it’s T&T.

It was first built in 87, and used for SCORR racing, fortunately the guy had the foresight to register it. But if your saying should a spaceframe with a 131 Mirafiorri engine hanging out the back be allowed on the road, shouldn’t really.

I love alternative cars, but I also love American, I would really love a proper blown hotrod, but there just not in this country, or they’re unaffordable.

We’ve had Oldsmobile, Camero, Corvette and Mach1, never had one, but always liked the AMC Gremlin. Oh and a CJ5. That V8 sound can’t be beaten, even the M3 sounds sad up against it.

[Bob Clarkson]

Ok now I’m jealous, I love the whole American idea of lets make it how it should be, put a big engine in and have something special.

What do we get in this country, a Mitsubishi L200 prone to cylinder head problems and a Nissan Nivara that averagely throws timing chains a 60k.

I have what is believed to be about the only road legal race frame sandrail in the UK, yet it’s just rubbish compared to what you guys go down the shops with.

Sorry that all has no relation to signmaking, but signmaking is boring compared with V8’s 😎

[Bob Clarkson]

I am more academic, than manual, but I am a signwriter, coachliner and I can gild, I also sprayed the couple of cars I posted as well as numerous salvage repairs. I’ve also done a mass of refits, fitting countless kitchens, bathrooms, fascias, windows etc, so I’m pretty hands on. Don’t touch electrics much though, but I’m an approved PAT tester.

In fairness I’m more at home with a white paper or an act than I am a hammer, but I still do the odd refurb and I still roll my sleeves up on my own properties. I do know a city economist that couldn’t put a flat pack together though, so I know what you’re saying.

However, I still can’t see fitting large letters on a sunny day onto perspex dry being that successful, but by the way you post and the manner you have Martin, I do completely accept you can do what you say.

[Bob Clarkson]

Without sounding too dooming, the local companies that form my competition, for want of a better word, go bankrupt on a pretty regular basis. It’s rubbished quality signmaking in my area.

If you ask for an account in my area Essex, then say you’re a signmaker, you can hear the sharpe intake of breath.

If your local signmaking competition is heading for bankruptcy, then they are very difficult to compete with, as they will be closer to the 100% profit bracket.

[Bob Clarkson]

I was a little put out by the fact it seemed assumed I could be fitting lettering for 25yrs wrongly and it failing without having the sense to think "hang on, I must be doing something wrong". But am happy to move on from that.

If I need to fit vinyl into any sort of recess, if the surface has any imperfections, or the weather is very cold, I fit dry. I also fit dry on small and delicate stuff pretty much always. What I was saying initially is, you can fit vinyl when it’s cold! I can’t see that as being wrong, if you write a van outside in the temperature it is now, there is no reason to expect any problems. If some cheap or indeed purely other vinyls than 3M, Avery, Fasson or Ultramark will not tolerate this, then I have no experience to question that.

I still can’t see how anyone could get large lettering onto Perspex on a hot day, quicker, better and with no imperfections doing it dry than I can do it wet. I would be only too pleased to put a significant amount of cash on that statement.

As I’ve said before, I don’t work with anyone else to share opinions or techniques, but the work in my local are of say 20 miles, is generally pretty bubbled, you can even see bubbles in the "youtube" clips of people demonstrating dry application.

If I’m one of the only people on the planet who feels that air bubbles are an issue, why are companies spending thousands on air release vinyl. If it is so that it is totally idiot proof, which would in turn mean I would have to acknowledge I was an idiot, then we’re all in trouble. If the vinyl is made so it can’t bubble even if it’s applied by Mr Clumsey, and a decent cutter is far less than I paid for my mountain bike. The trade is going for yet another downturn.

[Bob Clarkson]

Gavin, I bought a 4B from Spandex in that era, it was 1986, the 4d wasn’t their first computer, not sure what was, the first one of theirs I ever used was a grafix 4. That used to space/kern like a typewriter, and as you only had a LED screen adjusting from memory on specific letter combinations was nigh on impossible. When the 4b with auto kern came out, I bought one straight off, they said I was the youngest person in the country to own one. It didn’t take me to long before I had two of them though. They need very little attention paying to the kerning, infact they are better than pretty much anything available now.

I can’t honestly remember too much about the opposition to Spandex’s 4B around that time, there was a Roland, but that wasn’t all that special, friction feed didn’t seem to have been mastered.

With regard to application, I don’t wet apply everything, I usually dry apply to foamex, and anything handpainted, small delicate stuff, and small stuff to vans etc in colder weather. I will always wet apply large lettering to acrylic, vans etc.

I have wet applied for so long, my wet application is is surprisingly fast, I also never need to replace anything due to getting bubbles in it or having stretched it or the like. I have no real interest in changing my ways, I only do this because I enjoy it, not for the money, although it’s always nice.

I have no urge to try and encourage anyone to follow my ideas, I’m purely saying they have consistently worked since 1986.

So much of the work seem now is not level, full of creases, rips and bubbles. The fact I don’t have any of these issues with my stuff made me assume I was right.

I joined this forum to get in-put on a new cutter, from 1986 till a few months ago I’d had no outside contact with the sign trade other than helping a colleague asset strip a large sign company that was going to the wall. Unkind thing to do, but there was more money in crashing it than trying to build up and sell it. Thousands upon thousands of pounds worth of equipment, a lot of it I had to websearch to know exactly what it was. Ironically my original trade, yet one of the blindest things I’ve ever done.

[Bob Clarkson]

I acknowledge to put down Robert, and yes I am a traditional signwriter. I got into vinyl at pretty much the very start. As much as I’ve moved onto other things, I did manage quite ok on it for best part of 15yrs.

All I said was I’d been doing it like that all those years and had no problems, that cannot be luck. As suggesting I’ve spent 25yrs learning nothing, can’t be constructive.

At the risk of being offensive, I have a mensa IQ and a degree, I think It’s a little degrading to assume I can’t get a grip on the concept of sticky letters.

[Bob Clarkson]

You’ve hit that pretty much on the head Martin, I only ever worked on my own with the signs, then if you have a rough week it’s easier to ride it out.

I do love doing signs, but I could never make the money I wanted in the town I’m in. But what it did enable me to do was make good money while I was young, so I could get into other things that had massive initial start-up costs.

The saying "work to live, not live to work" is something I truly wish I could do. I know you said you’ve been through it, but you seem to have the balance few people ever achieve.

[Bob Clarkson]

Then I have been consistently lucky since 1986. Calendered vinyl was available in 1986, as was stabilised callendered, which is the product most people are now using, even if it is under a slightly different guise.

The difference between cast and calendered is the production of the vinyl. Cast is formed from a liquid, calendered/stabilised calendered is formed from basically rolling a ball of vinyl till it’s flat. This is why it shrinks, it’s not really shrinking, it’s trying to go back to it’s original form.

3m advised wet application back in the 80s, they even done courses, I know this because I’ve done one. Wet application was originally formed because of the bubbles and creases caused by doing it dry, and the fact it was not at all forgiving if applied incorrectly aligned. As you said, if it touched it was stuck. This does however not seem to be the general opinion, but I was doing this long before we even had a "@" symbol on our keyboards, because no one generally had email.

The law of averages means I cannot have no understanding or have been doing this wrong for over 25yrs and have had no problems. If my luck were that good I’d be on the next flight to Vagas. 😎

[Bob Clarkson]

Needless to say, if I’d got there and that’d happened I’d have been unimpressed, but I’d have stuck it out and billed a bit higher. I’d have also remembered and stung them a little more on any possible repeat work.

As they would have no obligation to pay, I’d have had to have looked at it as "in for a penny, in for a pound"

When I use contractors on developments I do, it’s bacon sandwiches, sausage rolls, a constant supply of tea and coffee and treat them with total respect. Partly because it’s my nature, and partly because I know how much it costs people to be unreasonable with me. A bit of decency never hurt anyone, and it keeps moral up which leads to a better, faster job.

Years ago, I was writing a van by hand in the freezing cold, the guy came of his house holding a cup of coffee and told me how much it was warming him up! I couldn’t believe it, I didn’t get offered one. My initially reaction was to punch him straight in the face, but I settled for sticking a score on the job. I’m not really a people person…

[Bob Clarkson]

Hypothetical question, we are soon to go into recession, it’s starting, but it’ll get worse before it gets better.

If your companies have set hourly rates, and work slows down, do you refuse jobs because of minimum charge, or ones that will not give you in excess of £30 a hour, when you’re sitting there twiddling your thumbs?

When I’m busy with other things, I turn sign work down full stop, but if I’ve got a bit of free time and there’s a £100 to be earned, I’ll earn it.

As I said before, my local competition is cheap, and yes it does bring the industry down, but as a minority, I can’t change it. My local area is too small and I’m not willing to start traveling.

I’ve never worked for anyone, I’ve been self employed since I was 16. I do a number of different things now, I’m also very qualified in business management. I understand the concept of being too busy to earn any money, but I also understand how to diversify and know we should not over or under value ourselves.

I know this has hovered away from the book, and having not seen it I can’t comment, but the calculations for an hourly rate can easily be done, it’s just line accounts. It should take seconds and can be worked out without even needing a pen and paper.

I can price a job off the top of my head, and know what I’ll earn to within a couple of percent. What I can’t exactly calculate is, how much work will there be in January, how many more sign companies will spring from redundancy money and will people be less inclined to spend good money for good signs or will low cost nasty signs win the day!

Before discarding these remarks, I did go through the last recession as a sign-maker. In the start I was flat out busy for a couple of years, people who had never needed to advertise before were having loads of stuff done, but then it became a different story. Make hay while the sun shines!

[Bob Clarkson]

I done a Midi van years ago, wet application, and it froze that night. It would have been finished for around 4hrs when it frosted over.

It was a lease van, and it lasted for the duration of the lease. That was in 3m, but I’ve had similar with ultramark.

The icing over obviously can’t be a good thing, but stick a random vinyl letter somewhere discrete on your vans tomorrow, when it’s freezing cold, don’t warn the panel, just ensure it’s bone dry. Then this time next year post what happened to it. It’ll still be there!

[Bob Clarkson]

I think that’s a bit more than numbers make it profitable, that’s more than the prime-minister earns, even after you take out materials and a fair level of expenses. Perhaps I should go back into sign-making full time.

[Bob Clarkson]

I guess a predetermined hourly rate must be set into this somehow, and is there a factoring for overheads specific to the user?

My overheads equate to practically nothing, I’m happy to do a few vans a week for basically hobby money, yet I can be undercut by larger firms with far higher overheads. The fact so many sign companies go into liquidation really isn’t a mystery to me.

With respect to hourly rate, some of the things I do, are seriously well paid, but I’m still real enough to earn a tenner when there’s one looking for a good home.

Peter, I work on my own, and about as much as I’ve ever done in a day is a Transit, an Escort and four site boards, are you saying you can do at least six vans start to finish, on your own, including the logistics of that task? as if it were easy.

[Bob Clarkson]

I guess you’re right Matty, but I don’t suppose the materials will cost even near a £100, and I would surprised if I couldn’t do it, even as a first one, it’s a simple shape.

I’m not to proud to save £500 doing that in the garage one afternoon.

Half the wraps I’ve seen I wouldn’t be happy with, so I’ll give it a go, if by some chance I can’t do it, I’ll spray it.

[Bob Clarkson]

I fit Ultramark at anything above freezing, although not wet if it’s even near to that. When it’s said the vinyl will fail, what does it do? I’ve never had a problem. I do accept the vinyl can get quite brittle, but if the van’s dry it’ll stick fine.

A heater in the van unquestionably works. Ok I guess if you put a one bar electric fire in the back of a 7.5 tonner it won’t, but a reasonable electric or gas heater would theoretically heat the lounge, so it’ll get a Transit up to toasty. If you don’t accept this as fact, give it a go for yourself.

Obviously it’s best to have a nice heated workshop, but if you don’t have one you can’t stop writing vans around 2 months of the year.

I can imagine a wrap being a major problem, but lettering in a reasonable quality vinyl isn’t, or at least never has been to me.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’m going to do a detachable hardtop wrap pretty soon, not that I want to, or intend doing another one ever, but I just rang someone for a price in carbon fibre, and they reckoned £600.

😕

[Bob Clarkson]

When writing vans in the cold, I used to put a paraffin heater in the back of the van to warm the panels. It works perfectly On reflection, I guess it could have all ended in tears. Don’t think I’d be brave enough to do it these days. Sorry I’ve just burnt out your 15K van and I don’t think my insurance will cover it 😳

[Bob Clarkson]

So, without sounding too pushy, how much do they reckon we should be looking at to write a Combo??

With regards to £20 for a bit of market research, I had to pay £600 for a one day course/exam, with another business I have! All I got for that, was a certificate to say that I’d passed it. What’s more, if I worked for that company, I’m qualified to teach it, all I’d need is purely to do a refresher.

Many years ago, I have a EYEC workshop/unit, it was run by the county council to help young people in business. I only to the unit because it ensure me getting the council work. The business advisor there used to work my prices out for me. This suited me fine, as I would never have had the nerve to charge that sort of money.

This went on for about 3yrs till the council dropped me because I was far too expensive. 😕 Not the worst thing that could have happened, it’d have too me ten years to earn that a sensible prices.

Still it must work, or you guys wouldn’t be using it. I’d love an example costing to be posted.

[Bob Clarkson]

That’s the problem I’d be up against, in my neck of the woods, some of my local competition will literally work for nothing.

I’ve not done this full time for over 10yrs, but if I was, I can honestly say I couldn’t earn enough to survive. I love it as a hobby/extra money, but it can be no more than that.

I would be interested to know how much others on here could charge for say, a Combo van. Nothing specific, just a ball park figure for two side, bit on the back, name on the front.

I’ll start, I could get a £100 for that, if I tried for more, anyone other than my regular customers would go elsewhere and easily get it done cheaper.

25yrs ago, I’d have got £125 and been able to do two a day even with the slower cutters. On top of this I used to generally get a tip.

[Bob Clarkson]

Nigel, do you know if you can do that set up but have an on line answerphone for each phone line. Surely this would solve Davids problem very cheaply and in house. If that was possible, I think I might go that route myself.

I would personally feel uncomfortable having a 3rd party answer my call through a centre, not that I do anything wrong, just don’t like other people knowing my business.

[Bob Clarkson]

BT done or do a system where you could have two numbers for the same phone, but it used to ring differently dependent one which number had been dialed. I don’t know if they still do, or who else does that sort of thing, do remember it wasn’t very expensive though.

I was going to have it when I lived at home so my parents would hopefully remember to answer the phone to at least some professional manner if it was specifically for me.

[Bob Clarkson]

My phone company "Talk Talk" gives me second caller alert, and answerphone.

If I’m chatting to someone I know fairly well I’ll say I’ve got another call, I’ll give you a ring back in a minute, If I’m on an important call, I’ll just ignore the beep.

If the second caller has left a message, all well and good, if they haven’t I’ve still got their number so either way I can ring back and apologise, usually blaming the person I was on the phone to.

It also cost £21 a month, including line rental and broadband.

If I ring a large company, I accept all the press 1 for customer service etc, if I rang a small company and got that, I just couldn’t take it seriously.

[Bob Clarkson]

If Peter reckons you can do it fine with the bits all attached, go with that, don’t make yourself a job. I don’t do wrapping, so I can’t comment.

I have from a mechanical and bodywork angle had a play with these, and if your pulling hard at stuff, you’ve missed some screw somewhere!!

They are proper rubbish mechanically, but I’ll give them their due, they come to bits easily, often just through day to day use. LOL

[Bob Clarkson]

I should have mentioned the family bit, and it’s a very good point Martin.

I’ve worked some ridiculous hours, and done things that have taken all my time and effort to achieve things, that we’re not necessarily the most important things in life in general.

Responsibilities, goals and the future tend to take up massive amounts of lifetime. Balance is the answer, but something I’ve never really been able to do.

As they say, "life is what happens when you’re waiting for better things"

[Bob Clarkson]

Sorry Richard, you’d answered that while I was writing and I hadn’t realised. Didn’t mean to interfere.

[Bob Clarkson]

That expression usually refers to the organising of electrics, sound services, plumbing and general facilities and arrangements at concerts, festivals etc. When you’re in that type of trade, you must come across as capable and knowledgeable, but I’d have thought you could go a lot more on the style side without loosing that.

[Bob Clarkson]

Em, see what you mean. The choice of 4×4 isn’t too exciting either. At least if he’s happy with what he has, he can’t be disappointed with what anyone else does!!

It couldn’t be more boring if it had " Earnest the plastic teaspoon salesman" written down the side.

[Bob Clarkson]

In a good economy, a lease is potentially a very good thing, it allows you to build up a stable business in a secure location. You’ll be protected from unreasonable rent increase, and the risk of building a good business, that could in theory be carried on in that building even if you’ve left it.

The downside is the fact it can strangle you if things are not going so well, obviously you don’t need me to reiterate the obvious, but I’ve seen a few companies fail, and still be tied into an expensive outgoing.

The fact you’ve already firmly negotiated, and if you can also do it it 6mth bite size lease periods is all you can do. You’ve got the best start.

If you’ve been trading a year, and things are going stable to increase, you could consider a purchase. In about 2yrs we will pretty much bottom out on house prices, when this happens unit/workshop prices will go through the floor. You’ll be 3yrs in to your new business and have a very clear picture of what happening. You may well have just got this spot on.

[Bob Clarkson]

To get a van under cover easily really can assist you to make far more money, I used to write them during the evening once people had finished work. I used to try and keep it to a couple of evenings a week, but someone could drop their van off after work and collect it in the morning. I still do that on occasion in the summer on smaller vans, but to do it all year can make a greatly increased profit.

We all know an extra £4800 a year can easily be made up if we’re busy, but it’s a fair old drain on resource if we’re not. There’s going to be a lot more empty units once we get firmly into recession, I’d have a go at price negotiation, the landlord might just be happy to have the place earning a bit rather than loosing him money.

I have no unit now, as I don’t do this enough to warrant it, I just use my garage, but it works, and remember a "penny saved is a penny earned."

[Bob Clarkson]

I registered that as a florist too, which is really weird as it’s nothing like a bunch of flowers, guess we see what we expect to see. Nice looking van either way.

[Bob Clarkson]

That really is a beautiful job, just a shame to hang it outside.

It is an unusual combination of fonts I have to agree Harry, but to me it works strangely well. Infact it’d be interesting to know what other considerations for fonts you’d had oreodeus!

[Bob Clarkson]

Martin, I’ve no idea how well you can do signmaking, as I’ve seen nothing you’ve done, and you’ve never praised yourself in anything I’ve read, you also play down your abilities. Based on this I’m guessing you probably know exactly what you’re doing. However, even if your not the greatest, you clearly do diplomatic very well. 😀 That’s an essential business quality in itself.

I agree, that my Escort was very "Boy Racer" but I was in my mid-twenties and I live in Essex, come on guys, what do you expect 😎

One other thing too consider is the fact that Escort was done 7yrs before the 1st "Fast and Furious" film.

When I was driving that, I was too busy to take more signwork on, so it didn’t matter, but I knew I’d never get work specifically from it, but it reminded everyone I was still about.

Most of my work over the years has been recommendation. But when I used to turn up at a job in that Escort and the customer had to hand me the keys of his brand new van, it wasn’t difficult to tell exactly what he was thinking. 😮

[Bob Clarkson]

Martin, fully agree but before assuming I always do subtle have a look at my pictures that are on the end of page three of this thread which I think have been overlooked.

[Bob Clarkson]

To show I can do stuff a little flashy and alternative, couple of pictures of my work vehicles in the 90’s. This is why I feel things have all moved on from them. The escort was also chipped and spec’d RS Turbo 205bhp so it sounded and went the part, wasnt just show and no go.

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[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve been established over 25yrs, and I’ve advertised both ways.

I’ve generally been too busy for most of my working life, but if I advertise and want work I do quality low key. If I’m busy, and can’t do more work, and just want to "show off" for want of a better word, I do a flash job on a flash car.

Signmakers, at least in my area come and go time after time, they come in with a burst of colour plastered all over everything, and it’s all gone to the wall within the year.

I see the flash stuff as the typical 80s way of advertising, and I don’t like writing vans like that anymore, I like the style and quality.

It is very unusual, if not unheard of for a reputable/dependable company to use gimmick advertising.

[Bob Clarkson]

David, what you have just posted and stated is exactly what I was hoping to get across.

As much as it’s never crossed my mind to do it, I can’t honestly say it’s a bad idea.

Out of curiosity, how did it work out on an acquiring business front, did people get asked which side had clinched the decision to use the company?

[Bob Clarkson]

100% agree with that, and "Graphics" not a word I would or have ever used on my own stuff irrespective of what I’m driving.

I call myself a signwriter when I paint, a coachliner when I do Rolls and Bentley, and a signmaker when I vinyl.

If I advertise I do it to get work and make money, not do a demonstration of what most people will probably like, but not choose for themselves.

I cannot emphasise enough the difference between inspiration and making money.

The best thing is to have a album of the range of work you can do. Then once a perspective customer has explained what type of thing they want, you can show picks proving how versatile you can be while helping them choose.

[Bob Clarkson]

John, on the whole, yes I really do. I feel a signmakers van has to appeal to all people in all trades, or at least as higher percentage as possible.

I personally would do it totally different if I wanted to do it to suit me, or to get the maxium amount of work from it.

It was no knock on your design, like I said, I like it. But it’s not the way to go to get the most work in a cross section of trades.

On the occasions I have a written van, I now do it in the same vein as a plumber, builder or shop keeper etc is likely to want theirs.

A friend of mine has a paint shop, we spent over two weeks fitting a bodykit and suspension/brake mods then spraying spraying one of my vans. This was after a serious engine upgrade. With the effects etc, the whole job would have cost thousands and thousands. Stunning thing, but I got far more work from my sensibly written £900 combo van.

[Bob Clarkson]

I know it’s only a mock-up, but the phone number isn’t central with itself, also when it’s near a door handle, you don’t do it central to the door, you’d go about 50mm or so off centre to balance it to the eye. If you don’t, the door handle becomes very prominent.

Thing is, if you don’t like the number like that, then it can’t be like that. I’d put the trademark ‘X’ inbetween the * signs * Vehicle Graphics * Banners *
as I just have with an asterix.

Short of fully changing it, if you like the general effect, which personally I do, I think you’re there.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’d now do the phone number in two lines so you can get it a little bolde. Lift the web address an 1" or so, then lift all the writing in the side panel so the ‘X’ is closer to the top and there’s less cramping near the door runner.

I’d be happy with that myself then, and if you are, you’ve cracked it.

[Bob Clarkson]

I didn’t mean to sound critical David, and I apologise if I did. What I was trying to get across is the fact we have to do a vast range of work for a mass of different client groups.

If you have a slammed van, it’ll maybe get you in with the car stuff and window tinting, but you won’t be the obvious choice for a solicitor who is thinking of having his window written.

I’ll post some bits of the weirder stuff I’ve owned, but the last van I wrote for myself was done as a typical tradesman’s van, and I feel that worked far better. They knew the job they would get was going to be similar to what they could see.

[Bob Clarkson]

As much as I quite like that John, both the colours and the balance, I wouldn’t use it. I’ve done colourful/flashy stuff on my own vehicles before, regular customers think it’s cool, new customers can be put off by that image.

Bearing in mind I used to use a lowered RS Turbo estate with a 4" exhaust system for a work vehicle. People would often, and still do say "if we didn’t know you, we’d never use you" I always say, look at what I make for other people, not what I drive myself. I was using a race spec dune buggy this summer!

Unless you’re always busy, or very well know, don’t go too flashy. Not wanting to put my foot in it even further, David previous firms van is just too far the oposite for any real business gain specifically from it.

[Bob Clarkson]

If your only using routers as and when and are not really bothered, then just buy a basic, but if not I can thoroughly recommend an Elu soft start. The soft start makes life so much easier, and makes for a nicer job if you’re trying something tricky. Mine was a couple of hundred quid, twenty years ago, but it’s done masses of good work over that time so it’s proved a very shrewd purchase.

[Bob Clarkson]

Think you’re going to need to bulk the lettering up a bit before you start. I do like the ‘X’ though. Have a go at putting your phone number in two lines as well. This is not a criticism, but you know it’s not quite there yet, it won’t however take a lot to tweak it.

[Bob Clarkson]

Subject to price, and a check over Gwaredd, that’s exactly the one I had in mind.

I don’t especially like convertibles, I’ve had a few, and found they’re far nicer to look at than to own. But Mrs wants a convertible, and there’s not a lot of choice now Saabs use Vauxhall mechanics, and the Volvo reliability is out the window, BMW seems the most practical choice.

All I have to do is pay for it while she chews through tyres like their 50p each and tells me it’s not fast enough. This is a woman who wouldn’t have a Elise because it was too slow. 🙁

[Bob Clarkson]

Very much agree with that Martin, and I’ve had the same thing where people have asked me to cover tatty boards with vinyl, and it’s hard to get them to understand it doesn’t loose imperfections, it can actually make them worse. So I guess even stone chips would notice through a wrap.

The original colour is Phoenix yellow, it’s like a "metallic mustard" I personally I love that colour, and in fairness it’s a strong swing towards me buying that model of car.

If we can establish a figure, then I’ll have to set about getting the whole wrap off. I’d have though if anyone was going to the expense of a wrap, they’d have chosen something a bit special, stock white is seldom popular, so may as well have left it yellow.

Sorry Peter M, I didn’t see your comment till I’d written this.

[Bob Clarkson]

Hi Peter,
I’m under the impression they’ve just had it done. I’m assured to a perfect job, and at a cost of £1500. It’s just a shame it was wrapped before I knew it was for sale, as they now want to get the money back on the wrap, and it all adds up.

It was just that I saw an ex police 5 series for sale a while back that needed a full respray due to paint damage when the wrap was removed, you may have seen my post about it.

[Bob Clarkson]

As Robert said, rails always look nasty.

I’ve done signs on this finish before and have opted to put an entire backing board up, then fix the letters to that. (although obviously not in that order) This is of course far more practical if you’re not fitting just a few massive letters.

[Bob Clarkson]

Lovely stuff, freehand always looks to have the edge when doing a job like that, even though I’d wimp out and vinyl it in this weather.

I wrote a JCB one winter, and the water froze on it as I washed it, it was heartbreaking, but it was soon after then I bought my first vinyl cutter.

Just watch out for chilblains, that’s the best was to get them, even with fingerless gloves. 😥

[Bob Clarkson]

That was the bit that struck me as odd. Unless I knew someone pretty well, or had done a fair bit of work for them before, I wouldn’t have left it without the money.

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but to make something like that, I’d want a significant deposit and cash on delivery for the remainder.

We have to remember, there’s a mass of opinions on here, but she might just pay up without question.

Not so much these days, but I used to do a fair few shops for woman who had no idea what they were doing, no business sense. Thing was, husband or sometimes parents were worth a fortune and wife/daughter just played shops. This could easily be the same situation.

[Bob Clarkson]

Well, it’ll be interesting to see how it all pans out. I have no idea how you’d go about establishing the debt though, if the customer lies, they’re pretty much off the hook. With regards to the recovery cost, I suppose they’ll only send a standard letter anyway. What about doing it on-line?

I’ve only ever taken one person to small claims court. It was some years ago an uninsured driver scraped my front wing. It was pretty clear he couldn’t have afforded to pay for the repair, but due to him swearing at me and being quite aggressive I took him for £17 under the max the court could award. It took him nearly 3yrs to pay. I wasn’t expecting an outcome quite that good, and truthfully felt quite bad about it. But if people are going to drive with no insurance, then be abusive, I guess they deserve it.

[Bob Clarkson]

There’s a couple of ways of looking at that. If you allow one person to knock you, you’ve potentially opened the flood gates. I’d be happier for people assume I’d get pretty offended and really kick off if I’m knocked than people assuming I was an easy touch.

Without signed agreements, an in the shop negotiation is the only real option. Small claims will be too difficult without proof and just cost time and money, and a debt collector can only collect a debt if the debt is established.

I was also just thinking about what was said regarding the 15% a debt collector wants. I don’t know how much this sign is, but it’s not likely to be fortunes, so how much effort is someone going to put in to earn 15% of it?

I had this thought just as I was about to ring one of the debt recovery companies posted about £500 I’m owed with another business I have. I haven’t rung yet, because I really can’t see anyone even bothering to take all the details let alone start writing letters etc for a potential £75. It would make no sense, why would they do the leg work for 15% of something it’s not worth the likes of us pursuing.

I was recently given a £650 architect bill for a drawing a builder I’d asked to quote for a job had taken upon himself to authorise. The architect was needless to say unimpressed when I refused to pay anything. But why should I, I didn’t ask him to do a drawing, and I don’t want or need one as I’m quite capable of doing any drawings/plans myself.

I also explained that I wasn’t using that builder anyway. This is the truth, but even if it wasn’t, it’d be impossible to prove otherwise, do you see my point?

He mentioned taking me to court, and I said do what you feel you need to do, with that response he accepted the outcome. Can’t imagine him wanting to deal with that builder in a hurry again though.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve had four PC’s for Dell in total, and one time Dell sent me a £700 tower, it didn’t seem to want to work. I ran them, and they rang me back for a talk through.

I had the thing in bits all over the floor, then said hang on, this is brand new and I’m pulling it apart already, I’m not happy to continue with this.

They sent me a new tower, slightly upgraded to compensate for my trouble. I can’t imagine many smaller independent companies being that helpful.

Dell, as you probably know are now available at PC World, their customer service is limited in knowledge, but very good back-up once they realise your intent on resolving a problem. I’ve had lots of plasma TVs off them, sometimes four at a time, and they’re up for a deal. Not just on multiples, but one offs as well.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve never really had any problems with my sign business with regards to collecting money, I’ve written off less than a £100 in over 20yrs, and a good part of that was out of pitty for want of a better word. I’m in a relatively small town here, and everyone knows everyone, that solves most things before they even start.

I do however have another business, which very seldom causes me to deal or invoice general public, with that I have a £500 debt I can’t recover. It’s just the last bit of thousands of pounds over a 12yr period, but now he’ll never need me again, he’s knocked me for the balance. I had truly expected this, but it still grates me. I can offset the debt against my tax, but I’d happily give someone the whole £500 sooner than get knocked. He’s one of those people that in normal life you’d do everything to avoid, only uses PO box numbers etc, proper chancer, but unfortunately he fitted in with departments I have to, and have no problem dealing with.

Based on this, I’m going to contact the two places you’ve mentioned, I tried a few before, but no one was interested in a no win no fee as I’d never had a none recovered debt before. So if it works, thank you.

[Bob Clarkson]

I fully agree with the concept of that Shane, but it’s not that common in this country for relatively small amounts to get a no win no fee agreement. As she is unlikely, we hope, to become a regular customer of the debt collector, she’s unlikely to get a one off deal.

[Bob Clarkson]

I wouldn’t worry, I’ve got no idea myself. In fact I just ask the kids what I need to do the job required. But the numbers you’ve just quoted are especially low unless it’s 5yrs old or more.

I know it’ll be frowned on, but I generally buy from Dell. I know a few people that build them, and a few shops that make them to spec, but with Dell, if it goes wrong, you get another one, that suits me more than dealing with shops etc. Think there’s about 2yrs warranty, by which time it’s superseded, so I’d just get another one if it went wrong.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve used Tigerseal on a whole mass of things, I even put a Landrover front wing on with it. I cannot sing it’s praises high enough. But I don’t 100% remember using it on foam board.

I have only found one thing so far it can’t stick to, and that was the back of a new set of number plates. I’ve used it to stick my plates on every car I’ve owned in the last 15yrs or so and never had a problem before this. The plated seemed to stick, I taped them as there was a slight curve, nothing much at all, I’d also cleaned the backs with panel wipe, but I removed the tape and the next day both the front and back plate were laying in the drive. The Tigersel was stuck to the car, but had left the back of the plate clean.

I’ve used it on plastics, wood, metal, glass, numerous building applications when I needed something better than gripfill or the like, and never once had a problem. Point to this being, try a sample, as there’s obviously somethings it can’t stick too. But in answer to your question, it’d easily hold a 10mm sheet in place even if it were a 10’x5′ on 4"x2" studs 16" apart.

My dad used to buy evostick in 5 gallon drums, we once laminated a 3mm sheet of Foamex onto 1/2" ply with that. The smell was serious, and by the time we’d finished I was fit for nothing, but it had no affect on my dad who was very used to it. I wasn’t sure it would definitely work, as we’d glued both sides, lining it up had no room for error, but it worked perfectly. We’d basically created a new product.

[Bob Clarkson]

Firstly you need to establish her views on it. Does she acknowledge she ordered the sign you’ve made and has she point blank refused to pay for it.

Obviously you have to do something, it’s just what’s best, and in what order.

I personally would go to the shop, with my bill in my hand and thrash it out with them. Start off very friendly and understanding, but not actually give an inch. Depending on how things seemed to be going, If it wasn’t going well, I’d start pushing my point considerably harder, but I wouldn’t push it hard enough to get the police called. But you never know, they could just apologise and pay, unlikely, but far from impossible.

If you have a written agreement/order, then small claims, if you don’t, just remember the customer always has the option of lying through their teeth they didn’t actually order it. After all, why would they, they’ve already got a sign! If you took her to court, she could just say she gave you the proofs for you to price the job, but you were too expensive so she chose a different company. We all know this isn’t the truth, but the people at the small claims don’t.

[Bob Clarkson]

I agree with Martin. Even car number plates fall off sometimes and they’re nowhere near as heavy.

As with any adhesive, you have to know the surface of that you’re sticking to in sound in itself, and is the paint in this instance?.

As it’s not massive, and assuming the paint is sound, you could stick it on with Tigerseal. There is no chance of that letting go. But you’ll always have a risk of the paint pulling off.

I’d personally wouldn’t stick, but use a strong recognised fixing, the choice is yours which they are.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve used a few different things, but the Ritrama samples I received didn’t do much for me, so they went in the bin, the actual finish was enough to put me off.

I like 3m cast, but it’s a bit dear for some jobs, when on vehicles they’ll be sold within 3-4yrs.

Avery is nice, but it’s a little slower for me to work, not sure if that’s just me, but I can’t work it so fast.

I now use Ultramark, for pretty much everything, think it’s a 5yr, but it lasts far longer than that, I’ve got stuff out there nearly 10yrs that’s still ok. I use the expression ok, as it’s not perfect after all that time.

But for price, workability and quality plus the fact I’ve never had any problems with it, I’m happy.

[Bob Clarkson]

Peter

Thank you for taking the trouble to post that, I’ve had a look on that site and a little search and can honestly say I had idea that was possible let alone quite a recognized process. Quite fascinating really, as they say, we learn something every day.

[Bob Clarkson]

I guess anything that involves a 3rd party, another contact etc, is just another chance for a problem. I’m sure in a lot of cases it’ll work, but with the end user essentially being a 3rd party, why would your customer get involved at all if they made nothing out of it.

I’ve supplied to many people who in-turn make a profit by selling on, but my deal is with them, not their customer. If they’ll put the effort in to sell the stuff, as long as I get what I want the profit they make doesn’t matter to me.

It’s something I’ve never had happen or been asked to do. I’m not saying this is one, but as over the next year or two we go into recession there’s going to be a whole range of odd ways of dealing coming up that we must all be aware and on top of.

This could purely be down to cash flow on the customer front, it’s easier for them to pass it over to end user and earn nothing, than do the outlay or stand the cost for a month to make a slight profit.

[Bob Clarkson]

Ok, I’m struggling a little with the spraying steel. First read it and thought, hang on a minute, you’re going to be sending me for a tin of tartan paint and a spirit level bubble next, but I’m guessing that’s not the case… If that can be done, it’s a process I know nothing about.

[Bob Clarkson]

That’s what I meant by not being expensive enough to put a Russian billionaire off.

Think I need to put an advert in "Russian Billionaires Weekly" and try and earn myself a few quid.

[Bob Clarkson]

Just a little addition, had a bit of a web search, and it’s very likely to be electro plated, there’s a few companies that’ll do it.

A company called Alchemist who are based in London, will do it in leaf, but it’s really not the same, it looks like the effect on the second Porsche.

If you google Gold plating a car, it’s in the gallery and listings…

[Bob Clarkson]

It could just be electro gold plated, they do car wheels, grill and badges etc with it, so I’ve no reason to believe you couldn’t do a whole car like it.

I thought about having my phone done with it once, but it’s not a nice image. It’d bond and stay on there well enough, but it’d be seriously expensive to do a whole car with it though.

It’d be quite dear to do it in leaf, or even a wrap, but electro plate would be frightening. To line it like that by hand would be tedious and time consuming, but not really that difficult, so it is feasible.

To give an idea, a couple of hours is more than long enough to coachline a Rolls including the hubcaps, without pushing yourself too hard. I once spent two days lining one of my own modified cars, and it was nowhere near the complexity of that Porsche, but the style of lining on that gives far more tolerance than you’d ever get with normal lining.

I guess it come down to "how expensive does something have to be to put off a Russian billionaire" suppose the answer to that would be a lot more than it’s likely to have cost….

[Bob Clarkson]

I didn’t mean that to come across disrespectful to the fact you use Graphtec Martin, I only based it on my personal experience when trying to buy new equipment. I fully accept that it is impossible for the samples I received to be a true representation of the FX800.

[Bob Clarkson]

Until I just looked it up, I didn’t even know what that was Martin, but have to admit it looks rather nice.

I could gild that quite easily, but I can’t honestly imagine anyone in my neck of the woods wanting their Porche ruined, so probably won’t get the chance to prove it. 😀

[Bob Clarkson]

With regards to the gilding on that second Porche, I’d have been ashamed of that if it was my work, but in contrast I wouldn’t even pretend to be able to get the finish of the first one.

So based on that, someones basically a genius, which I wouldn’t rule out if we remember the post on the guy in Torguay with the glass work, or it’s a wrap.

[Bob Clarkson]

Then I think you’ve done well, and with regards to how good their service and attitude is, that’s standard, not just till they’ve got your money. I’ve been dealing with them since 1987 and they’re spot on. Also remember, I’m very picky and very difficult to please.

I know everyone’s out to sell and make money, we are are in one way or another, but they put the effort in to make it happen. They also have the back-up of being a large company so they can be expert in all areas. Well done mate, you’re off to a good start.

[Bob Clarkson]

The window tint obviously can’t be applied dry, so unless you have a nice big heated workshop, if it’s winter you’ve got to do it outside with the car heater on. It only looks streaky for a couple of hours, so I make sure it’s not collected till it’s dry.

If you’d actually read what I’d said Peter, vinyl changes colour while it cures, it doesn’t matter if it’s applied wet or dry. Because it’ll be even, it won’t notice as it’ll all cure at the same time. Emulsion/gloss/cellulose/2k etc all changes colour as it cures.

Peter Dee, you probably just missed one little bit in the centre, it was probably like it all the time but only became noticeable once flooded with water. I must admitt I’d have expected it to start noticing sooner, it probably did if the truth we’re known, but no one paid any attention to it.

I would have stuck it wet, without question, would this have happened if I’d done the job, quite possibly we’re only human.

If dry application is so easy without bubbles, which I’m sure it isn’t when you see so of the jobs out there. Why are all manufacturers making and developing vinyls that don’t leave bubbles if it’s not a real problem.

[Bob Clarkson]

Very clever, but definitely a way to make an expensive car look cheap and tacky. I’ve seen one in plain chrome/ silver, and that looked really well.

[Bob Clarkson]

This isn’t a lot of help now, but when you went back a squeegeed the water out, although the colour remained different, you’d already fixed it. I’ve had a very similar thing on a launderette I done. (The condensation was ridiculous, if I’d realise it’d be that bad I’ve have written them on the outside). I went back, squeegeed it, dabbed it with a paper towel and said we’ll give it a fews days to see what it drys like, if it’s doesn’t do what I think it will I’ll replace it. Once fully dried, it was perfect.

Some frosts and indeed vinyls can change colour massively when they dry out, you must have noticed how white looks so dirty when applied to glass until the adhesive cures.

I’ve also tinted car windows on cold days with the car heater on, it doesn’t condensate, but you get a whole range of streaks and clouds on the windows till it dries out. It goes from looking unsellable to perfect in a couple of hours. It also has no effect on the longevity of the job.

[Bob Clarkson]

If you do go Summa, make sure you get the basket and stand in the deal, and also that it’s an R not an FX. Even if you don’t want the stand and basket, you’ll still get a couple of hundred quid back on it.

Things are not always what they seem, cutters dealers on the whole seem like double glazing salesmen, read exactly what you’ve got before you agree. One place said they’d beat Spandex by £150, but when they sent email order it was for an FX with no stand or basket. Instead of Spandex being an R with a stand and basket.

Don’t worry about how much you have to spend, a couple of grand is more than enough. If this figure isn’t enough for them to be bothered to deal properly, it’s their fault for doing them so cheap.

Depending on what part of the country you’re in, I’m in Essex by the way, give Spandex a ring, they’re in Bristol. It can’t hurt and it might just help. I’ve dealt with them since 1987, and in hind-sight just wasted my time shopping around, I should have just bought from them in the first place.

If you’re new to this, or if you have about as much time and patience as I have, you’ve got to buy from somewhere that really understands what they’re selling. Coupled with this, you want them on the end of the phone for a bit of help if you’re struggling with something.

Creative transfer solutions was about the last company I tried, they were dearer than Spandex, but quite polite and helpful. Don’t for a second remember them saying they had a demo one or I’d have gone there. Didn’t find NDP, and can’t get it on a websearch either!!

[Bob Clarkson]

That just reminds me of another thing that happened. I’d have to check through my original postings to be exact, but basically I had, had a company agree to a demo at my work place, and another demo at their offices. These were for both the Tangential Summa and graphtec. I can’t remember models, but they were around the 4.5 to 5k mark, as I’d assumed I was looking at too cheaper cutters by the samples I was getting. I had given them assurance I would buy one of the machines, so they weren’t wasting their time.

About an hour before he was due to turn up, I got a call saying he’d broken down and would re-book, never heard back from him at all.

Please don’t think it’s me, I don’t usually have problems buying things. Possibly with the exception of Westfield cars who didn’t seem to have any interest in selling me a 25k car because they’d just had a load of orders from Europe, this is about the only item I’ve come across frustrating issues.

[Bob Clarkson]

It was through an agent, but the agents don’t hold demonstrators, or indeed stock, I tried a few. The samples were coming direct from Graphtec. I my opinion, if an agent doesn’t hold a demo machine, and can’t sent samples or know much about the cutter, what possible use are they.

I spoke directly to Graphtec as well, that was when I got all the excuses. The whole thing was too much of a mess to bother to get my head around, life’s hard enough without trying to cope with that. lol

[Bob Clarkson]

I’m in a little different boat here, all I’ve ever used is 4Bs, I’ve not worked with another signmaker in 20yrs and I only do this out of choice now not career. Other than this forum I have no communication with any other signmakers to gain advice.

Point to this being, with regards to warranty etc, if I bough a cutter that was unreliable, bad batch etc, even if the after service was bad I could basically just stick it on Ebay spares or repair and get another one. Hardly cost effective, but it’s a solvable problem.

If I buy something and the people I bought it off can’t use it properly, I know I’ve got no back up if I have a problem. Typically, if I done a job and it cut badly how would I know if it was me or the cutter at fault??

I’m serious, they need a couple of strategically placed signmakers spaced across the country that are capably of demos. Then customer would order direct from Graphtec and signmaker gets an incentive from Graphtec. Now tell me that wouldn’t work…

[Bob Clarkson]

I have to agree with you Martin, they must be good, from the amount of professions that use them. Thing is I have nothing to base this on other than the fact if they were only as good as the samples I had sent to me, no one would buy them.

I even said to them I would happily travel up to 150 miles or so to see one if they had a customer who could give me a quick demo. But they weren’t interested.

I just don’t understand the logic, if Spandex said to me, we’re going to send someone round for you to show them how well your cutter works, I’d be happy to do it. I can only guess a few of you would too. If they threw in a roll of vinyl or so as a sweetener for my trouble it’d be great, but I’d do it anyway.

I know these things are cheap now, so there’s not the profit for anywhere to go to a mass of trouble, but it wasn’t about the money, I just wanted to know how well it could cut.

[Bob Clarkson]

Shane, in an ideal world I would 100% agree with you.

Not so much now, but when I started doing this I was 20yrs old, working flat out with two plotters. I used 3m for about the first 2yrs, I then dropped to Ultramark, it’s not as good, but it’s perfectly ok.

Due to the volume of vinyl I was getting through, the amount I saved each month doing this amounted to more money than the average employed person my age was even likely to earn.

Looking at my market today, I mostly do new vans that are changed every 3-4yrs, the Ultramark still looks good at this age. There’s no real point in using a loner lasting vinyl.

If you ask me would customers spend more for a better product than mid range. It would generally be a no.

If you took you’re approach to my market, all that would happen is every metre of vinyl that went through your cutter would waste a few quid that could go straight in your pocket, this would have been thousands of pounds a year using the quantity I was when I was working full time.

[Bob Clarkson]

I personally wouldn’t worry on the warranty, but a lot of people seem to so I tried to cover it from the start. Summa offer 2yrs, buy it from Spandex and you get a year.

With regards to samples, I asked for an OCSG in Helvetica, straight as it comes in 150mm and in 10mm. I figured I’d have a better chance of seeing the quality with a plain sample as fancy letters can be harder to detect exacting detail and quality.

The first sample they sent, was incredibly intricate, a complex patten with some of the lines down to maybe 0.5mm. This would have been very impressive if achieved, but the cutter had done little more than murder it. It would have been unusable, and in-practical to ever make anything like it, and it couldn’t cut it anyway.

I then got some Ford logos, that I could have cut smoother by hand, then some fancy letters that would have been difficult to know what they should have looked like, but were very crudely cut, actual steps where it joined it’s start point. The last thing was some 3mm letters that were all torn and miss shaped during weeding and very notched during cutting. They then said they wouldn’t send me anymore as I was too fussy.

I figured if they couldn’t get it to cut nice and they’re the main distributors, I’ve no chance of creating the quality of work I try to put out. I sware, my 23yr old 4Bs are far better cutters than the Graphtec samples I was sent.

Spandex sent me a beautifully cut selection of 150, 200, 10 and 5mm cut on a Summa D600R in Helvetica first time. Their machine is also a good bit cheaper than the Graphtec.

I first joined your forum for information and opinions on cutters, and I’m amazed that for a couple of grand you can buy that Summa plotter. I only do this part time now, but I’d allowed 5x that amount for a decent cutter. If it’d been much more than that, I probably wouldn’t have bothered, so it was a nice surprise.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve just done all the leg work on this one, I had samples, emails, numerous phone calls fromvarious companies, and it’s the Summa D600R, but not the D600FX.

Don’t know if I’m suppose to recommend sellers, but Spandex were the best on price, and far in advance with the service and knowledge. They do a shorter warranty, but it’s clearly better, and if you extend it, it’s still cheap.

They do their own software, but the guys on this site will know far more about that side of things than me. I just gave the disc to my kids, got them to learn it, then tell me the basics!

I’m sure Graphtec must be good by their reputation Robert, this is clearly true or you wouldn’t use them. Trouble is, they had three separate goes at sending me samples and still didn’t do what I asked. The quality was pretty bad, and when I mentioned this they just blamed the files, well they were their files, I’d asked for specific letters only. They really need a capable dealer. I’m serious Robert, they really need someone.

Must agree about the 4B, I’ve got two, and wrote a van with my 23yr old one just today.

[Bob Clarkson]

Price seems to far out weigh quality with regards to what customers want now, it’s one of the reasons I started to move out of the trade.

I wrote a van today, for about the same money I’d have got 20yrs ago. Thing is, I’m still having to do a good job for it to keep an edge as there’s people out there that would undercut me. So even if you price a job where you’re really not earning much better than a job in Tesco, people will still work for less. The point to this being, soon as a few start buying even cheaper products, we’ll all to a certain degree need to follow suit.

I used to write all new vans in 3M, but when competition starts using Ritrama or the like, You then have to compromise especially if you’re customer can’t tell good from bad and only looks at the price.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’m sorry Harry, I hadn’t actually looked at it like that, and realise I’ve responded as if it were a modified car forum. If you can tell me how to or I can figure it out I’ll happily remove my posts.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’m especially careful these days as I really don’t want to loose my license, or truthfully just get my insurance bumped up because of points.

I was very lucky during my early years, being from Essex I traditionally had everything from the obligatory Ford Capri, through all the RS turbos and like, few V8s, BMWs, Merc, the quick Volvo, the list goes on.

I don’t ride bikes now, as I manged a good few years without getting hurt and figured I’d pushed my luck enough, that said I may get a Harley but nothing else fast.

I can’t personally vouch for any of the sprays etc, I’ve never used anything like that. But I do know some of it will work on some of the things. But it’s pretty obvious if you do get pulled and there’s something odd about your number plate you’re in for some extra trouble.

I have a Mirafiori engined Sandrail I’m playing with at the minute, and I’d really love to see quite what it’s capable of, but the risk is just too high now.

[Bob Clarkson]

I have to agree with Robert, there really is no other way to deal with that one.

Other suggestion is, throw that one away and buy a pair of similarly nasty frames that match, who’d be any the wiser.

Another thing to consider is, how much do they expect to pay for it if you spend ages locating it or indeed getting it made??? And when people say, "I don’t care what it costs, I must have it" they’re very unlikely to actually mean it unless they own an oil refinary…