Russell Spencer
Forum Replies Created
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signconex
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Europoint do one called Genotherm, its a proper pvc material unlike HIPS which is not suitable for outdoor use. I find it scratches less as well.
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best part of the program was the designer who was so fed up of using helvetica, he decided to use the most random font he could so he went to the end of his font list and there was ‘Zapf Dingbats’. He said you couldnt read it, but it wasnt worth reading in the first place.
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any polyester anti-graffiti film should work as a dry wipe, we use the one from Europoint for that very reason
Robert Horne do a dry wipe sheet buts its only 0.8mm thick, requires bonding to something and is very brittle. But its cheap.
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There is no specific limit to when or how high, the only criteria is when it is safe and reasonably practicable to do so.
If you are fitting one small sign 2′ x 2′ about 12′ up, use a ladder so long as it is safe and erected correctly and you have done a risk assesment (you have, haven’t you ?)
If there are 15 signs around the building it would be deemed ‘reasonably practicable’ and safer to erect a tower.
Cost is not a governing factor in relation to health and safety, if you explain all this to your customer he will not have a problem paying the additional cost.
I have only had one customer in the past 8 years complain about additional installation costs on the grounds of health and safety.The only situations where problems occur is if the company you are doing the work for do not allow ladders, in which case they will not have an issue about you billing them for scaffolding, but you will probably find you have to be PASMA qualified to erect a tower on their site. Its only a one day course about £120-£150 and you get an ID card.
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Warren,
I have posted before about finishing the edges on foam pvc letters, the problem is that the routers will not/cannot cut through in one pass and has to step down 10mm at time which results in a stepping on the side of the letters, then you have the problem of sealing the edges, if you dont the paint is just soaked up, coat after coat and leaves a poor finish on the edge, we had some reasonable results last time by wiping the edge with a cloth soaked in cellulose thinners, it helped but it was far from perfect.
good luck, let us know how you go on.
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I think these guys are quite a big chain, so they may be resin cast letters (from a mould). I have seen them only briefly and they do look good.
edit – isnt that a photocell on the first picture, if so the sign might be illuminated (letters only by the look of things) if thats the case then they will have to be built up acrylics
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we have had some success printing onto frosted etch for this type of work. Its not perfect, not as good as white but much better than double printing.
If it was on an oval then you wouldnt get a hard edge like the white. -
you need hot wire cut polystyrene letters, I have seen an advert somewhere, I will have a look.
edit: these werent the guys I was thinking of but they do similar
http://www.hampshireinsulations.co.uk/gallery.php -
we have 24v and 18v dewalts, the lads use the 18 mostly because the 24v is too heavy for general use (assembling frames, drilling timber etc), for drilling brick or concrete we have a 110v sds (bosch – better at sds than dewalt).
But in answer to your question yes you can use a 24v hand held in the rain. But I would be more worried about ladders slipping and the risk of personal injury etc.
All my work is installed ‘weather permitting’ in Manchester its a fact of life unfortunately. 🙄 -
Depending on the construction, you may have problems with foamex expanding and contracting with heat changes.
I would probably look to Dibond or equivalent, I think I read somewhere they also make a honeycomb centre dibond which is even lighter. -
if it is a solvent ink then this will have already attacked the surface and there will be a shadow. If the dome has been heat formed then you won’t be able to use anything on it apart from soap and water because the acrylic will craze, even with meths.
If it has been cast, then I would start with the mildest cleaner like meths and then get gradually stronger as needs be.
I have heard a rumour that synthetic thinners is better than normal cellulose thinners but dont hold me to that.
Also with the crazing it can take a few hours for it to react/appear so go carefully and slowly is the motto here.
If you do get it off to a reasonable condition, you can then polish it with t-cut or farecla.good luck
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if your sign is 300 mm long then it is a ‘u’ or a ‘v’ style sign.
x height for one of these is 15.0mm. Note that the ‘x’ height is a lower case x and all text lines are centered vertically on the lower case letters not the capitals.
This can all be found in the Health Technical Memorandum 65 (HTM65), when I bought mine I got it from HMSO books (her majestys stationery office). If there was one page that made it clear I would scan it for you, but it is full of cross references.
But I’m not really sure if anyone pays attention to it any moreedit:
colours
light brown – 08 b 17
mid brown – 08 b 25
red – 04 e 53
yellow – 10 e 55
blue – 14 e 53
green – 14 e 53all BS 5252 colours
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I always supply approximate sizes only on my quotes, but just out of interest, how many people supply a visual or a proof, free of charge with the quote? I only do it for existing customers, new ones who I am sure are just obtaining as many quotes as possible just get a written quote.
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I’ve only ever heard of 2, 3 and 4mm, most companies seem to have ditched the 2 and 4mm and just concentrate on the 3.
Perspex distribution sell ‘proper’ dibond they would know. -
you are never really going to get a 100% solution to this problem, because the whole idea of ‘tamper evident’ labels/vinyl is that they are difficult to remove, the avery vinyl mentioned earlier is a great product for computer seals and such like, but if you ever have to clean one off, good luck to you.
I think the perforations idea is the best, if someone tries to peel one end up as said it will be obvious, especially if a permanent adhesive vinyl is used because it will distort when peeling off, also at the most, it will leave some adhesive residue that can be cleaned off. -
for legibility, I have always recommended 1" of letter height for every 10′ of distance. So to read a sign 40′ away you would require 4" letters, thats minimum height by BTW.
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We have the same problem with fabricating the mirror finish dibond. The problem is the 2 part acrylic adhesives (techbond etc) give off heat when they cure, soften the core of the dibond and create the dimple on the face. When we have had to fix locoators to the back we have cut small acrylic squares about 20 x 50mm, put vhb on them and stuck them to the back of the letter, then we stick the locator on to the acrylic with tensol. Its a bit messy and with a lot of letters can be long job, but it gets round the problem.
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quote Warren Beard:good idea Jason and it might have to be my only option. Although it is not letters I am attaching it is a 8mm sheet of acrylic (2200mm X 900mm) sitting on 10 standoffs.
It still might be my only option though.
cheers
Warren
that will be a very heavy sign, if you are standing it off on spacers then you will need secure fixing for at least four of them either into brickwork or into the timber/metal frame if there is one.
I wouldn’t attach sign that heavy just to cladded panels without finding a good anchor point. -
you might have an outside chance with signconex
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I think you might need 2 rows. This is what I was told from Building Control last week on a job
The two bands need to fall between the following guideline levels to meet with Building Control:
Lower Band: 850mm – 1000mm.
Higher Band: 1400mm – 1600mm.
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sorry, but am I missing the point here.
Why can you not just float on another layer of vinyl to obscure the showthrough? Its only 2 mins work and £1 in vinyl -
spandex infopanel used to have a special light trough which bolted to the top of their signs. You will need to contact your local spandex signbuild centre.
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If the adhesive is coming away from the vinyl then the pre-heat was too hot and it has delaminated.
It is better to use less heat on the pre-heat stage if you do not have a temp gun. Once it is applied to the vehicle the metal panels act like a big heat conductor and the heat time is not as critical. -
I think insight used to do a retro-fit framing system for flex faces, it replaces the standard beading on a light box..wait one….
yes here
http://www.insightsignsystems.com/spectraspeedflex.htm
bottom of page there is a ‘retrofit’ option
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You can download free Cyrillic fonts with instructions on how to use them on a western keyboard.
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I have found that spandex sells the best quality rubyfilm, SM3 is their reference, its not the cheapest but it weeds quickly and without fuss, the others tend to lift off the backing a lot.
Tried the vinyl onto clear thing sometime ago, worked for big stuff ok, but any small lettering had trouble exposing on the screen without shadow. -
quote Robert Lambie:i only know of the subtle colouring of etch from companies like oracal and 3m but i do know MACtac do it also… someone else too but i cant think of the name. could it possibly have been printed onto?
I thought it may have been, if it has it is very very good quality, I cant attack it with some solvent to see because its my customers sample.
I think its going to be a question of ringing round all the different manufacuturers.thanks all
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not sure if this is quite what you want, but I have an Oracal 851 metallic swatch and there is a colour ref 677 ‘fir green metallic’ which is not bad.
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quote Robert Lambie:have you tried http://www.built-ups.com/ ?
ask to speak to paul davenport…built ups.com have gone bust, big shame. try Floreeda in stockport or Plastic formers in Denton
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Thanks Martin, the only problem is that there are 44 letters, lots of ‘S’ and ‘A’s as well.
Elbow grease it is then. -
you need to look at sundeala board, comes in different colours, we have screenprinted it in the past, not sure if it would take vinyl though.
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quote leemorris:Lynn all the wood is going to China along with the steel and cement
My local supplier had the last delivery of timber in January and they have their own forest somewhere abroad.Lee
I really cant buy in to these stories, it seems to me that everytime a supplier/stockist has to put their costs up there has to be an excuse like its not our fault, but we have to do it etc…. My local timber yard is piled high and if there was going to be a problem he would have told me by now.
I remember a really funny one about 10 years ago, the cost of computers went up instead of down, the salesman tried to tell me that there were only 3 factories in the world that manufactured silicon chips and one of them had completely burnt down and now there was a shortage. Come to think of it that was in China as well. -
A good rate for design work would be £25-£30 per hour for a qualified designer.
I think the main point here is the relationship with the client, if this is an existing customer and you have a good working relationship then I dont think you should make an initial charge, just make sure it is covered when the job is done.
If on the other hand you know the client is talking to 2/3 other people then I would be very relctant to spend 2-3 hours on a design that may/may not be chosen from one of many. -
I agree with nik, clear vinyl laminate or polyester anti graffiti laminate if thats going to be a problem as well.
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ASD metals do them pre-coloured
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thanks all
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if it is a sign with multiple directions ie. some to the left and some to the right then I would centre the text. If it is one locatation and and arrow then I would centre the text and the arrow, but you need to put the arrow a little further over to the edge because the point creates an optical illusion and it looks off centre, you will see what I mean when you set it up with a box around the text.
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I think you will find that there will be suitable materials out there dibond, 3M vinyl etc. Have you thought about how you are fixing them, I dont know of a tape that performs that cold and I dont think you can drill into fridge walls.
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from a cost and labour point of view its going to be cheaper and quicker to screenprint. The only drawback is how long the printing will last, these type of signs take quite a bit of abuse and I can see them getting scratched pretty quickly (maybe a clear protective laminate?). Yes you can screenprint onto powdercoating but you have to be careful what ink you use.
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especially if its toughened glass, for some reason when we apply etch panels to toughened glass they take twice as long to dry as normal or laminated glass
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oops, no idea how I got those prices, apologies.
18sqm should be £450.
In my defence I had one eye on my lunch, one on the computer and another one on 2 workers who were on top of an 18 story block of flats with a sloping roof that I can see out of my window.
mod-edit
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quote Cheryl Smith:It has taken me a while to learn this,………but you know…..its okay to say no.
100% agree with this, it helps to keep your sanity and enables me to see the kids once in a while.
also… you might not know this… but….
The customer is NOT always right!
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£170.00 to joe public, assuming they can supply suitable quality artwork in a finished state.
mod-edit
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thanks guys, I will look into these options.
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europoint do a product called ‘hydrosol’ great stuff, easy to print and reasonable priced but it can take a while to dry. You should be able to beat your current price.
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trounce in Manchester
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europoint sell photoluminescent as well
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its called hydrosol from europoint it comes in a few different weights and finishes, matt, gloss, blockout.
It prints really nice on our soljet, photographic quality. -
the only items that we can re-cycle are metals, brass, ali, stainless (which we weigh in every now and then) and Acrylic which can be recycled and there are some companies that will collect it for free if there is enough.
The rest is just scrap and not worth re-cycling, it costs more to process it than it does to tip it. We have a box of scrap vinyls/offcuts that we give away to primary schools and also the secondary schools like A4 pieces of foamex, pvc etc for their ‘design technology’ classes when we are quiet we cut a load of offcuts up and send them round to the local schools.
The backing paper cannot be re-cycled like normal paper because it is silicon coated and this cannot be removed easily.
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alternatively we have painted over printed vinyls after they had been laminated in anti-graffiti film to protect the print
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VHB will be fine but you will have to run the tape along the 2000mm length on the long piece otherwise it will buckle
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we just purchased one from A to Z, it worked out at £100+vat for about a 4km x 4km area, the actual map was only £25.00 and the rest is legal and licencing fees.
seems its the in thing at the moment for estate agents, ours was a 2m x 2m on stand off spacers on the reverse of 5mm acrylic, charged him about £900 and he said it was the cheapest price he’d had.
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its not really a health and safety issue if you take suitable precautions. The main issue is washing off the solvent in the bay, the water board (united utlilities) dont like it one bit as the solvent floats on top of the water and collects in the holding tanks and causes a fire hazard.
Dont ask me how I know but we now have to pay £355.00+vat per year for trade effluent disposal and I still cant put any solvent down the drain.
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if you dont have engraving facilities, try 3mm clear perspex, put the lettering on the reverse (cut in reverse obviously) then spray the back in light coats, gold/silver or any colour, when dry laminate in vinyl for protection.
The advantage of this is that it looks good and kids cant pick the letters off (you just know they will..!!)
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Solar sign supplies sell them 01829 773030
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you can hand polish in an emergency.
scrape edges to remove any saw marks, sand down with a 240 grit wet and dry with plenty of soapy water, then 600 then 800 etc until you get a nice flat finish, then just t-cut it and it comes up clear.
alternatively you can buy a small hand held butane torch, electronic shops sell them I think, they give off a nice flame (but a bit too hot) and with a bit of practice you can get a reasonable finish.
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quote :If your terms state that ownership stays with you until paid for in full then it is still yours and you can reclaim your goods at any time. It doesn’t matter whether the sign is screwed to a wall, or leaning up against it.
If your terms have a right of entry to recover unpaid goods then you can do just that without fear of prosecution for trespass. By accepting that clause the property occupier has automatically given you permission to enter, so where is the problem?
You are quite right about the above, the only problem is that these terms have to be agreed in advance on a signed agreement, it is no good just sticking it on the bottom of the invoice, that is not enough from a legal point of view. We all have a story like this, mine is £5000 worth from Christmas, if the company has been liquidated the ONLY way you are sure to get anything back is to take it down on the quiet and salvage the parts. If you then go back and offer the original sign to the new owner you then become involved in theft because once the sign is mechanically fitted to the building it becomes part and parcel of it, it would be like pinching the front door.
But if you were to sell him a very similar sign to the one he had at a discount price…???
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to give it its proper reference its Oracal 1680-10, and its designed with a high performance adhesive to stick to most surfaces including polyprop and other tricky materials. I think its only available in packs of 100 sheets and its twice the price of normal stuff.
edit – just found this link http://www.orafol.de/eng/pdf/1680.pdf
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Have you tried digitally printing onto clear vinyl. I think you will find the inks are translucent and it will not work unless you can print white with your cadet.
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rather than the cost of the ali you will struggle more to find someone who will do the alocrom coating for you. A powdercoaters would be my first port of call.
edit: a bit more research shows it is an anodised coating so it will require to be dipped in a solution and will need a hole (or holes) to suspend it to ensure all edges and faces are covered. I doubt if you could buy it ready coated (but I stand to be corrected..!)
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Well apparently we are all doomed anyway, Steve Martin of XMO Strata (a nationwide fitting company) has written a book and to quote Sign Link magazine ‘ blows the whistle on alleged scams, frauds, dodges and health and safety breaches which he claims occur through the sign industry’
Now I know this is aimed at larger companies but it will make it more difficult for smaller businesses to even step up to the mark and make an effort in in health and safety, instead of making positive efforts to bring companies up-to date with the current legislations which are changing on a monthly basis, it effectively alienates small signmakers and this book is a cheap effort at bringing himself more work, which unfortunately will probably work in the current climate. To me he is the classic health and safety jobsworth, more concerned with paperwork and form filling than actually getting the job done, there are hundreds of signfitters out there who dont do risk assesments and work to method statements but probably have much more common sense and practical application of health and safety than anyone. -
i know what you mean and I cant remember who did it some time ago, but 3M have just launched one, its in the Jan/Feb issue of Sign Directions
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I agree, nothing even remotely close
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hobday are the best ‘value for money’, it aint cheap though
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great for large stuff without joins and for re-producing full colour graphics to illuminate. Especially good for long signs (20-30m)
Must be out of harms way though as they are quite prone to slashing from our beautiful youth of today. -
Yes they are very heavy on the advertising. But none of them are any practical use, in fact there is one that I positively loathe, they have the owner of signfitting company sprouting on about health and safety and how we all have to embrace it at every opportunity and the amount of column inches he gets is unbelievable. A quick flick through and then its bin fodder.
On another note, I dont actually subscribe but they send me them anyway ..! not complaining like. -
if you are replacing an existing sign of similar size and specification then the original planning consent is deemed sufficient.
You only need to start worrying about materials if it is a listed property and protected.
There is a guide you can obtain from the council about advertising consent, its a bit long winded but you can design a substantial sign within certain guidelines that does not need planning permission. -
if you speak very nicely to trimite the paint manufacturers they will send you their colour card which includes about 100 ral colours on it. I have found it very useful in the past.
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you may be able to get 40mm pipe clips for wall fixing, in metal from a plumbers merchants, most uk waste pipe is 40mm.
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can you let us know where you get them from. Do they mark vinyl at all when you are rubbing down?
we are using friction sleeves at the moment but they arent the best.
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you are perfectly entitled to work from home without planning permission so long as:-
the building is a home first and business second (one bedroom in a 2000 sq/ft workshop does not get domestic rates)
you do not alter the external shape of the building
there is no significant increase in foot or motor traffic to your premises
there is no disruption to your neighbours outside normal working hours.
Where I am, advertising consent allows you to put a sign up not exceeding 1.2m square on any residential property so long as the business operates from that property and the sign is within local guidelines.
Contact your planning office, they really are nice people to deal with (despite rumours) they will help you out with what sign you are allowed to put up. But I dont think you would get away with neon in a residential area..!! -
Martin – what text are you using as a search criteria
signs stockport
engraving stockport
screenprinting stockportall come up first page, its impossible to cover every single angle from all over the country, but then I dont want to be national, plus yellow pages has a very small area coverage in my area, manchester is split into 3 books and there is also a catchment area for south merseyside.
but at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding, I can recall 3 clients off the top of my head who we have gained through the website and have commented on the quality of it, in the past 18 months they have probably spent at least £6000 with us, so from a £500 investment its not a bad return, and because somebody else designed it, there was absolutely no hassle, all I had to do was provide the pictures and approve the designs.
In this day and age I dont think you can afford NOT to have a web presence, and the final result comes down to what professional image you want to portray. -
sorry david (rogers) I cant agree with your comments on my post, I have ‘been there and done it’ spent hundreds of pounds on software to make my own site, bought books and then spent 2 weeks trying to understand it and write a site, it looked OK and lasted 2 years but was nothing like what we have now, a professional looking site. The £500 cost remember is a one off cost not yearly, I expect to get 3-4 years at least out of my current site, the updating bit is only ever changing the photographs which my designer does for a small fee once a year.
I have landed a couple of nice clients from the professional look of the website, remember it is the first impression of your company that they will get and you have to make them confident. have look (mod-edit) see what you think.
And if you do a search for (mod-edit) you will see we rank quite highly on most popular search engines. This is not something we maintain constantly but is the way the site has been optimised. -
we have screen printed similar in the past, but the material is so porous it requires 4 or 5 pulls to get the required density.
DIY – can you not get an iron on flock or similar and iron it on?
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do it..!!
it has high initial setup costs, ours was £500 plus the domain name and space rental, but it is a very good sales tool.
2 things:-
you need to take good quality photos of your work, not just scanned photos, digital originals in high quality.
have the website designed properly and have it ‘search engine optimised’ so that your website has the best chance of being found through google.
When you consider the cost to advertising in yellow pages its a bargain.
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if the file is too large, the postscript interpreter (eps) will break the file down into smaller sections, which may involve cutting a letter in half, so a normal printer buffer can handle it. If you break apart any graphics into small sections and convert any large paragraphs of text into graphics and break them up into individual words this should sort the problem.
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quick tip – the ground must be bone dry and swept clean 2 or 3 times, otherwise it breaks down very quickly.
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have a look here
http://www.brettmartin.com/semifinished … sives.aspx
tensol has THF in it but we have never had much success, 2 part epoxies seem the way to go but as a previous poster said I always put a couple or three screws through hanging strips, just to make sure.
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its exactly how a digital print head works but instead of ink they are using water and instead of spraying it onto a material they are letting it fall against a backdrop.
There must be a row of computer controlled nozzles in the trough above.
Very very clever. -
For option 1 we would use our local car paint supplier, he can match most Ral colours in an aerosol, probably best in industrial cellulose, spray the letters first with plastic primer from halfords, then spray the letters with the colour matched paint. Cost is about £12.00+vat per aerosol, one can will do about 12-14 300mm high letters.
For option 2 a vinyl laminate would definately be your best option. -
We have made small dip tanks before from ‘extruded pvc’ sheet which was about 5mm thick, cuts fine with a circular saw and our plastic supplier supplied us with a glue that melted the plastic together, we then just ran some silicon sealant around the inside to make it water tight.
You can have them plastic welded but if you want to keep the price down this would be your best method. -
An additional not to this:-
Banner Vinyl is NOT the same as curtain side vinyl
The curtain side vinyl has a much more aggressive adhesive and is a lot thicker.
Don’t ask me how I know