Gordon Smithard
Forum Replies Created
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Thanks Craig, I did think of that and it might be a last resort, trouble is I’ll have to do it by hand as I don’t have a laminator.
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There was a guy at the sign digital show at the NEC doing live demos on all sorts of vinyl application, from the bare bones basics to wrapping, I found it quite handy as I learnt a few little tips off him.
Don’t know if he does training as well but he’s certainly a good communicator and puts things across in a manner that even I can grasp.
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Thanks Robert, I’ll look at those.
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Amari do a few colours.
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£119 on Hilltops website.
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Sorry, forgot to mention, Hilltop Products is where I got it from.
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I use one from Express, not for wrapping but for whenever I need to heat up some vinyl. Adjustable flame but doesn’t turn off when releasing the trigger. Gas canister is in the handle, but re-fills only available from Express as far as I know.
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I’ve had grabbing issues with certain truck sides but I usually fit dry anyway while making sure the sticky side doesn’t touch the vehicle till I’m ready with the spreader.
Some truck (and box van) sides seem to be extra shiney, almost like glass, these can cause problems if you need to re position, however I have fitted air release vinyl with a spray of water before, despite warnings that it won’t hold it lasted several years.
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I’ve not met anyone yet who’s taken a giant leap like that and regretted it, well done.
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I might be wrong but I always thought that this stuff (mainly the red) needs sealing after cutting, which is why it’s easier to buy pre made kits.
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I suppose it depends on where you are but I use Amari West London, they offer cutting at no cost.
(although they might charge for lots of small cuts).Also used Antalis in the past, also good but never had anything cut with them.
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Not sticking in quite the same way as vinyl but probably not far off. After being on a customers van for 3 years or so without ever being removed, they were almost impossible to get off, just breaking off in very small bits at a time. Not sure what caused it but might be down to dirt creeping in between mag and van and setting solid.
I since had a read though an A4 bit of paper that came with my roll of mag and it clearly states that they should be removed periodically etc.
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If they’re going to be on the vehicles for a long time then let them know that they need to remove them periodically, say every week or so, to clean mag and vehicle and re fit the mags, after making sure both vehicle and mags are bone dry. If this isn’t done then they might be impossible to remove after a few months as they seem to stick fast.
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I used Fred at First Sight Design 07751 080643
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Thanks again for the tips, I’m getting a free sample from Metamark so I’ll see how that goes.
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Many thanks for the tips, I take this stuff needs to be cut to size before fitting? I haven’t measured the glass yet but it might be small sections.
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I’ve only ever had this with chrome/ gold leaf and other rigid sort of vinyls and the only way I know is to roll it loosely and not round a normal cardboard tube.
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You might need to do a test cut on a small bit first as it’s thinner material and may need the downforce of the blade changing.
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When I started doing signs 15 odd years ago I had no idea about prices and undercharged, mainly to get work in and get my name out there, now I value my work more (although not as much as someone with more overheads).
It’s a conversation I have quite a lot, but as long as you’re happy with what you charge and are covering all costs and paying yourself/ staff a reasonable wage then crack on, but there will always be someone cheaper, just as you could have probably found a cheaper chippy, some people seem to be engaged in a race to the bottom which isn’t helpful.
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Interesting. Might bring problems with what colour to enter on the log book!
Wasn’t there a domestic wallpaper that did something similar being trialled a few years ago? I seem to remember it plugged into the wall and you could change patterns whenever you wanted.
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Water spray for me too, I also spray the water in the air over the area where I’m working to bring any dust down that’s hovering.
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Sorry, got that wrong, it’s too early in the morning for me!
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That last one didn’t even get the graphics central, looked like a thicker green line at the top than the bottom.
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I did a pavement board a couple of years ago using Metamark MM-FL-54, still looks ok today. I think they said it had a 3 year lifespan.
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I always roll it on with a hand held roller, but I find some app tapes are a bit more ‘grabby’ than others, even though I only use medium tack. Metamarks M2000 is my ideal tape, I can lay a big sheet on and slide it into position before rolling, but other tapes I’ve tried will grab as soon as it touches and then it’s game over and start again.
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My main question is, is this really a job for a sign company? or would a building maintenance firm be better suited. I know we all get involved in all sorts of weird things that are nothing to do with signage at all and this job could be FOR a maintenance firm anyway, but I think if I was asked to do a similar job I would point them in another direction, depending on your workload etc.
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That must be it then, did they catch on do you know?
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That could be it, but it was a long time ago now so can’t say for certain. Probably around 2003 – 2005 (ish) if these things were around then.
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I’ve got the same set up but not those sort of long delays, all I get is a pause of a few seconds when importing or pasting, never had that with Signlab 5.
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Be interesting to hear from those who use it, if any. As you say it probably isn’t worth it, in fact it probably never was, the weeding time saved will never be recouped because of the sheer cost.
I would like to know how it weeds small lettering (5-6mm) without lifting the letter centres, specially on a lower case ‘e’, something I regularly have a problem with.
But I seem to remember something very similar being trialled about 15-20 years ago which never really took off, can’t remember what it was called though.
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This is why I don’t read or trust reviews, negative ones could be left by the competition and positive ones by friends/family of the business owner.
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I’ve been using Signlab for 16 years now and had no idea that this feature was on there. It’s called ‘Power Weed’ on my version and I knew it added a weed line between lines of text etc but never knew it could go through the centre of text/ objects like this. Will make some of my jobs a bit easier now I know this.
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Never paid yet but sometimes struggle to get them to actually send them out. I have seen a couple of vinyl companies stating on their websites that they charge for them though.
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Not that one, I’m trying to find the one I looked at last week but can’t for the life of me remember. It’s basically a spray on procedure that comes in some really bright and extra shiney colours that normal wrap vinyls don’t come in. When I find it I’ll post a link.
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How much are they? I bought a gas one years ago for some small bits I had to heat but only used it a couple of times, cost me £100.
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Thanks for the replys, I’ll have to ring Metamark about how long it’s been in their warehouse as I only bought it a few weeks ago for this job so it’s not as if I’ve been sitting on it for years.
It’s not MM-SSS as that is only indoor stuff, it’s M1-BS which they assure me is suitable for outdoors with a 3 year lifespan. At the end of the day I could always hand cut some of this if I need to redo it, it’s a squiggly shape so doesn’t need to be precise.
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I know it’s a different thing altogether but I remember about 40 years ago when vinyl cutters starting making an appearance, signwriters were saying how sticky plastic won’t last, and how difficult it is to change fonts (early Spandex machines), effects/ shadows were impossible etc….technology moves on at a remarkable pace.
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I think it’s called Thermal shock fracture ( or similar), it was covered on here a good few years ago by a member who knew a fair bit about glass. Darker colours are the culprit but also how tightly the glass is fitted in the frame and if it’s been toughened, best to make the customer aware as discussed.
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These vans have a slight ‘dome’ effect on the panels which outlines will not compensate for, example being if you cut the top line dead straight it will start to drop as you go along. Also the rear panels are even more domed, mainly the bottom outer parts. I use knifeless tape on these vans as I don’t think there is an accurate way of doing it otherwise.
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Very poor standard of wrapping, it might be the wrappers norm though and he obviously thinks it’s ok, maybe new to the business and doesn’t know any better but that doesn’t excuse him. I have noticed a drop in standards over the last few years though when looking at vans etc, not just wraps but signage in general. Also seen some stupidly low prices as well, maybe we’re in a race to the bottom, hope not!
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I’ve used the JSW tape with no problems so far, but I’ve never used 3m so can’t really compare. I think this sort of thing will come up more and more now, and not just with our industry.
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The problem I’ve found with outlined drawings is that they don’t/ can’t take into account the curvature, you’ll cut something from it (or a photo) and it will run out of line.
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In days gone by before vinyl came out we used to use oven cleaner to remove signwriting, with differing results.
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How about simply putting an outline around the text, I’ve done this a few times now to get the thickness right.
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Thanks for all your replies folks, some food for thought here.
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Learned from a place I used to work. ‘There’s never enough time to do a job properly….but there always seems to be enough time to do it twice’
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quote Kevin Mahoney:To be fair, I’d say that would sort it. We all get an old fashioned Christmas locked in with the family watching repeats, all symptoms should become visible within 2 weeks, & the virus stops dead in its tracks. But thats easy to say when I’ve got 400 toilet rolls in the garage
Sounds like a good idea but unless the rest of the world does it as well then it’ll simply return with all the global travel that we’ve got used to.
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My local hospital half a mile away has just had it’s first case, so it’s getting close! (cough…splutter!)
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May not be relevant but I quite often get this when trying to open a file that was created (or saved) on a different computer using a newer version of Signlab.
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I use Signlab but prefer the older version 5, better icons and easier to use. Sadly it’s not compatible with anything newer than windows XP.
I’m sure you can pick up a new version for a few hundred rather than thousands, I suppose it depends what extras you want. I bought Signlab 9 cut pro about 3 years ago for just under £300 brand new, does all I need. -
I score the back about 3 times with a Stanley knife, hold over the edge and snap. Any burred edges get rollered back down with a plastic wallpaper roller.
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quote Gordon Smithard:Also check the spelling….V or W?
Just that the web addy looks like a ‘W’
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Also check the spelling….V or W?
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If you’re talking about the Transit Custom with the wedge shaped panels then you’ll have to go with the knifeless tape as the panels are slightly dome shaped, more so on the back.
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Just out of interest, how did this go?
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Looks like a vinyl issue to me as there is shrinkage around the edges which normally comes from cheap vinyl so I’m surprised that M7 is doing this as I sometimes use it for trucks with no problems at all.
However I looked at an old M7 swatch (8 or so years old) recently and noticed that some of the blues on this swatch had shrunk while others where still fine so I don’t know if certain blues are more prone to shrinking than others, maybe a call to Metamark might help. -
I’ve used it for 15 years, since I started, and the firm I worked for before that also used it which is why I stuck with it.
If I remember correctly Ultramark became Metamark, hence the change in name to Image perfect, although I stand to be corrected on that one, but yes, supposedly made in the same place in Lancaster although both brands seem to have differed in recent years but colours are almost identical. -
Trouble with those vans is the panels aren’t flat, specially the back. I tried this 4 years ago on these vans and gave up in the end, got the sides right but couldn’t get the backs to fit due to the almost domed nature of those panels.
The other thing to consider is sheer hassle of removing these and putting them back on again, if they get it wrong and one of them flies off on the motorway and maybe wraps itself round a motorcyclist, who’s at fault? -
No settings or blades were changed at all and same vinyl used throughout, the problem occurred suddenly after about 14 years of hassle free cutting which is why I changed the strip and put a new blade in as well and things were exactly the same afterwards so I ruled out the strip. After that I tolerated the skipping bits and cut the small missed bits with a scalpel, but now it seems to have gone back to normal and cuts ok without me having done anything, I could understand it if I was continually altering settings etc to get rid of the problem but I haven’t.
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New strip fitted but didn’t resolve the problem of the blade skimming over the vinyl for about 4-5mm every now and then instead of cutting it, I had to manually cut these odd bits with a scalpel during weeding. Today though it’s been fine so don’t know if it’s an intermittent fault that will return at some point.
I remember something similar happening with a Graphtec FC plotter at my old workplace about 15 years ago, it would completely miss out a few mm of cuts where the blade lifted off the vinyl then back down again instead of remaining down, turned out the motherboard was playing up, was cheaper to get a new cutter. -
Thanks for the tips everyone, I’ll get a new strip, at least I won’t be left in the lurch if the turning trick doesn’t work.
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Yes, that’s the strip, I seem to remember someone saying it could be put back in so the worn bit is away from the blade impact area as the blade only hits the very edge and not the middle so there’s quite a bit of decent material on it still.
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Thanks for the tips there folks, did it with Metamark 7 series and worked a treat, although it took a bit of stretching to do the back door panels as they have a bit of a bulge towards the outsides so I hope it stays put.
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Ah…that’ll be why then. You learn something every day!
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I’ve often wondered if B&Q are affected by this as they use DIY.COM instead of B&Q, it used to be called cybersquatting.
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I use one from Hexis, does the job perfectly.
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I’ve always use pdfs but with the security settings so it can’t be edited, not sure how secure this is though so maybe jpegs is the way to go.
I was once sent a vectorised pdf that a customer got from another company and when I zoomed right in you could see loads of tiny zig zags in the outline every 3 – 4 inches, obviously some sort of security thing but I haven’t seen anything that will do this. -
Yes, Definitely laminated. I managed to separate it and the overlaminate is a window frost/ dusted etch.
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My first thoughts were to get the colour right, it’s just that they’ve now used unlaminated and all is fine, which explains the above comments about different laminate, but obviously means a compromise on colour maybe.
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I regularly cut small text down to about 5mm sometimes, I use Image perfect 5700. I have tried other makes but find this easier to weed. Whenever it gets difficult then a blade change usually sorts it, never played with offsets but sometimes have to alter the blade pressure after putting a new blade in.
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I was told when I first started that vinyl is a small part of the total cost of most jobs which is why I don’t use monomeric
and if a customer wants cheap short term stuff then I just give him what’s on the shelf. -
Wow….didn’t know about those!
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Do tech screws work on brickwork? I thought they were just for ally cladding.
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Good call about the welding, might try that and see what happens.
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Good theory but I always fit layered vinyls separately, ie black gets fitted first then red over the top, otherwise like you say, you get that tunnel of air under the step.
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Just checked, June 2011, so it’s had a good innings. But like I said, it started peeling at the edges after a year or so.
Just seem strange the it’s only the 2 colour double layered bits that’s peeled. -
Spandex, Image Perfect 5700, fitted outside, not sure what time of year but I’ll check back through my invoices, dry applied.
From memory it started peeling within a short time, about a year or so, customer not too bothered but now it’s looking a bit too bad. -
It’s surprising how quickly you can learn something new when you really have to.
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On Transit customs I always go by the top of the panel, that’s pretty level.
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I always use the actual van that I’m going to write and measure that, after a while you build up a database of most of the common vans.
Trouble with outline CDs is they don’t always show where the badges are, mainly when the van or truck manufacturer decides to move badges around every now and then. -
I would never go bigger than about 3′ x 2′, because it needs to be removed every fortnight or so for cleaning then it becomes hard work, so they do this for the first few times then don’t bother, then a year later you get a call saying it’s stuck solid and won’t come off.
Not sure where you stand if it flies off on a motorway and wraps itself round a following motorbike, I would hope the driver would be liable but the way things are now with this blame culture we’ve adopted I would be inclined to get a disclaimer worded by a professional. -
The poor grammar in both those emails should set alarm bells ringing.
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I did a 40′ lorry trailer last spring, flat sides only, for a 2 week roadshow. Used LG bubble free, laminated.
I didn’t pull it off at the end of the roadshow but the customer did, he said it peeled off like a dream and wants me to use the same vinyl again this year. -
I had similar with a car years ago, turned out the owner was polishing the car afterwards and was going a bit mad and some of the corners lifted off the lettering.
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As my ex boss used to say, think of a figure and double it!
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I use M200 all the time, I love the non aggressive adhesive. To stop the edges curling up I simply leave strips up each side to hold the tape down, ie cut with a weed border.
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Sorry, forgot to mention in the above that this antalis stuff is re-usable, no distortion or stretching when removing it and can be re-applied, printable as well.
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I had an Antalis rep call in the other day showing me a removable vinyl. Looked like a low tack version of normal vinyl but thicker, trouble is it’s never been tested for outdoor use.
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I always get this problem with LG and Grafitype, never had it with Image Perfect, Oracal or metamark so in my opinion it’s down to make.
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You may well be right here, we’ve all probably had the situation where we’re not completely happy but when the customer sees the finished job they don’t bat an eyelid.
I’ll have to look at the other vans they’ve got and go from there.
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I use a small fold-up picnic table to put things on, keep it away from the vehicle behind me and it’s easy to pick up and move as you go around the vehicle.
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Not a bad idea! Another thing for me to play with. Thanks.
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Not very good pics but it shows the chrome vinyl in the plotter being gripped both ends by the pinch rollers. Ruler is resting on the vinyl without pushing down, the second pic shows the ruler dropped by approx .3 inch by pushing down on the vinyl till it rests on the cutting strip, this is how much the vinyl is bulging upwards.
I have found it makes a difference if I support the vinyl with flat pieces of wood on both sides, keeping it flat rather than letting it roll up.
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I was thinking along similar lines, just working out how to fix something to it. I thought maybe there was a chrome vinyl that laid a bit flatter when unrolled, I’m using Metamark stuff, but I suppose the very nature of the shine means it has to be quite rigid. As Robert stated, I could get some cast chrome and give that a try but it’s an expensive trial if it doesn’t work.
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Hi Robert, thanks for the reply but that’s not what’s happening. I know what you mean about the tunnel effect where it’s a 5 – 10mm wide tunnel that’s lifted away from the backing paper.
This is the whole width of vinyl forming a slight dome between the rollers, it seems to me like it’s down to the rigidity of the vinyl, it always wants to roll back up again, which you wouldn’t think is a problem once it’s clamped into the cutter as the roll would go the other way. I get the same effect if I lay out a 600mm square of this on the bench with heavy weights on each corner, it forms a dome effect with the centre about 5-6mm off the surface, hope this makes sense.
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I may be wrong about this but I believe that reflective vinyl/ stickers etc fall under vehicle lighting regs…ie red at the back and white at the front.
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As Martyn says, it’s rare. What happens is the dark colour absorbs the heat from the sun and makes the glass hot, the glass then tries to expand, as most things do when heated, but if fitted tight in the frame in hasn’t got anywhere to expand to, therefore the cracking.
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That is exactly what I thought, only done 2 van panels so far but no problems at all.
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I seem to remember mine were about £12 for 45 metres.
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Saw it on you tube and got from Amazon, obviously from China. I just thought I would give it a go as I rarely get these sort of jobs in and Wrap cut doesn’t bend too well around corners and the 3m stuff looked expensive.
