[Stuart Taylor]

quote Robert Lambie:

quote Stuart Taylor:

without the laminate the readings are much poorer and don’t meet reflectivity requirements. This is for Road Traffic Signs, but we have been digitally printing reflective materials for 30 years and any reflective without a gloss laminate will lose a % of its reflectivity.

Very interesting!
Do you mean it increases in the areas that have Ink coverage only, or both the base material and Ink covered areas are enhanced, Stuart?

I am guessing you mean both as the laminate will be glossier than the base, but thought ide ask! :smiles:

Hi Rob

No there are no negative/positive effects for the non-printed area (as long as laminated correctly) but Digital ink will generally dull or reduce gloss levels of the reflective base under it. When you have a matt finish (or very flat inks such as UV) then the light reflected is "scattered" at wider angles rather than a high percentage of reflection going back to the light source (normally a car headlight and the driver)

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Kev Mayger:

Hello

Wouldn’t laminate destroy some of the reflective properties?

Hi Kev

Actually, if the correct laminate and lamination method is used then it actually will enhance reflectivity.

You need to use a gloss laminate and it needs to be laminated using decent pressure to avoid air trapped between the layers – if insufficient pressure is used it causes "silvering" or a minute air gap that "scatters" the refection rather than allowing it to reflect back to the light source i.e. you

If you use a matt laminate or no laminate this means the surface is normally "duller" and again scatters the reflected light in multiple directions rather than back to the light source.

We print CE Marked Traffic Signs using specialist digital printers and ink and we need to measure reflectivity based on construction with gloss laminate ….. without the laminate the readings are much poorer and don’t meet reflectivity requirements. This is for Road Traffic Signs, but we have been digitally printing reflective materials for 30 years and any reflective without a gloss laminate will lose a % of its reflectivity.

Hope this helps

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Pane Talev:Thank you all for the reply.
I have used the doro tape one. Cut shapes on a hair saloon in London many years ago. Looked pretty cool.
In this case my client asked for the 3M one.

Hi Pane,

As Rob has already said Dichroic films are not designed to be cut to shape and officially 3M would state for sheet application only. The problem is actually down to using pre-mask, enough pressure during application and then removing the app tape without causing lifting or bubbles.

We have many people who have done it successfully but on very simple shapes – Ideally don’t use app tape if you can, float on as you would with a window film, loads of pressure to get water/fluid out, re-squeegee etc and leave to fully dry.

[Stuart Taylor]

Out of interest what brand was this ? You mention you normally use Avery with no problem …. was this a different brand ?

It’s possibly due to the particular brand and the manufacturing construction. When SAV is manufactured and goes through the manufacturing process in the plant there are a number of stages to this. With many of the higher grade brands and in particular higher performance products a primer coat is added between adhesive and face film – This is designed to allow clean removal in the future and most high end cast wrap products will include this process – There is a cost to this so lower end brands or lower grade products will not have this process to reduce cost …. however the penalty to this can be delamination of the adhesive from the face film.

The primer coat should create a greater bond between face film and adhesive than adhesive to substrate …. That’s the theory :smiles: and therefore removes cleanly (relatively) from the sign/vehicle etc

Even with a primer coat if a digital print has a heavy solvent load i.e. v dark cols or 200% + ink coverage and isn’t correctly outgassed the solvents can internally attack the SAV and potentially weaken the bond between primer coat and face film.

As others have already said heating the film and softening the adhesive can help the removal process but if there is no primer coat or the primer coat bond has been weakened through solvents then clean removal will be difficult. 🙁

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Alex Crosbie:

I had a bad time with the vion vp5000. Applied over a vehicle panel gap, cut and then folded around the edge it lifted back almost immediately.

I questioned it with William smith and after a little back and forth I was told it wasn’t suitable for that use and should only be finished on flat edges.

I was offered an alternative but it wasn’t suitable either so I’ve gone back to oracal 3651 as a good quality all round polymeric.

Apologies for hijacking the thread!

Alex

Hi Alex

Sorry to read about the issues you experienced with the VP5000. Unfortunately i think you may not have been given the right advise on how to handle this application as many of our customers use it for exactly the same application. The advise you should have been given was apply a little heat to the folded edge immediately after folding and it shouldn’t budge. This just helps soften the film and gives the adhesive a better initial bond (especially in cooler weather)
I know one of my customers had the same issue as you last winter, we advised the addition of some heat on the edge straight after folding and its not caused them a problem since.
It certainly isn’t a wrap product but simple curves should be not problem and with a tight curve (such as folding round an edge) additional heat solves any potential problem.
Apologies that you were not given clearer advise at the time and am guessing that the person you spoke to assumed you were "wrapping" with the product i.e. heat stretching where of course we would advise using a cast film rather than a simple fold around an edge without stretching.

Please give me a call if you want to give the VP5000 another go

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Simon Worrall:

Hmm curious. William Smith says they sell them in 50 meter rolls on their website.
they certainly sell it in 50 yard rolls here in New Zealand, and in the USA.
My bad.

Hi Simon

3M and Avery supply 95% of their print materials in 50m for Europe and most of these materials are manufactured in Germany or Holland now. They both have been moving more of their ranges over to the "European" standard of 50m roll length. However there are still a number of products such as reflective, crystals etc that are still supplied @ 50yd/45.7m lengths. I understand all of their products are still 50yd in US market and Asia etc.

Arlon only supply 45.7m rolls whether in US or Europe as all products manufactured in US

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Karen McGinty:

Thank you. Thanks to your advice have now sourced a supplier of the tape and saved a fortune! X

Happy i could help :thumbsup:

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Karen McGinty:

Hi all.

Long time no post, but in serious need of urgent help so please forgive my sudden appearance after a long absence!

I am in need of a 2.5 inch mircro prismatic tape in orange to replace decal on one door of a van. Have found a supplier, but they want me to buy a full 50m roll! We don’t use it regularly enough to need a full roll! Does anyone else use this and would be willing to sell us enough for the job?

Cheers

K x

Hi Karen

Looking at the photo the top edge is ultrasonically edge sealed and is available as a tape – If its Red you would need 980-72 and if its orange it would actually be classed as a fluorescent orange code 9924

Both are available by the metre @ 2" wide ready edge sealed tape – No one would do this normally in the orientation your photo shows so i am guessing this has been cut off the vehicle from a 2" wide strip, not as a 2 1/2" strip.

If you just purchase 24" wide rolls and cut down maually the tape will fail along the long edges with water and dirt ingress – if using 3M always go for a supplier that edge seals the edges of the Diamond Grade.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Martyn Heath:

Hi all!! Looking at getting my first printer and laminator setup. Ive done my research and going for latex instead of solvent.

Going to purchase a used model. It looks like im heading towards the l25500 but cant make out why they are so reasonably priced. 2-3k used. Just want to make sure im not missing something.

Hi Martyn

The L25500 was the1st generation of Latex printers from HP, so any second hand model will be quite old (for a digital printer)

We used to sell HP printers and have first hand knowledge and experience on all versions

My personal preference for a second hand printer would be to look for a L26500 (2nd generation) as HP "improved" a lot on the 1st Gen. Also you will start to see support options more difficult for the older models. We still run L26500’s alongside the newer Latex 370 models

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Daniel Taylor:

Just spoke to George at WS .. and he’s just said avery facade isn’t air release .. but can be applied wet … for Window frame wrapping I’d prefer dry fitting due to the immediate tac. What’s your thoughts on this, would you look for a similar product with air release?

Hi Daniel

Avery Façade is designed to be fit wet

Believe me its like magic when you see it demoed – I have never seen a wet application give such a strong immediate bond. The façade film has a unique 40micron adhesive that is designed specifically for these architectural applications.

As was suggested by Chris get yourself onto one of the Façade Taster sessions, they are free to attend and will give you an insight into how well this film works. Up to you then if you want to take on a full training course at a later date

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Danny Miller:

I have been having the same problems with mdx air release. Left a 100mm gap and heated the flat part of the vinyl , as they recommend. I am interested in what others do , as I have recently done a course at avery graphics centre and I was told heating the flat vinyl is wrong and I should heat the recess area. Sorry David if I’m high jacking your post but after reading your comments about the bridge , thought my question would tie into that.

Thanks

Different vinyls have different application techniques, especially in and around recess work. Some manufacturers will suggest direct heat to the recess area and stretch straight in – However this puts the highest stress on the film and puts all stretch into the weakest area of bond.

For single step/panel recesses by far the safest and most fool proof method is bridging the film by at least 100mm and then heating the vinyl as far from the recess as possible (check manufacturers heat requirements), then you apply pressure in the recess which has no heat effect and therefore the stretch occurs on the flat area. Once this cools the vinyl in the recess has had no stretch and the area on the flat where heated is stretched – The theory therefore is there should be less chance of fail as the stretched area cannot "pop" off a flat area. Obviously correct cleaning, correct post heat etc is still required to ensure no failure.

Also different vinyls have different post heat requirements so you should check every vinyls application guidelines as even the same vinyl manufacturer may have different guidelines for each type of material in their portfolio and different applications.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Chris Tennant:

quote Simon Worrall:

Very grabby adhesive can be a combination of a heavy solvent print, laminated before allowing enough time for the solvent to evaporate. This can also lead to curling off at the edges and other premature failures.

It was a quite heavy colour to be fair. Was probs laminated 1- 2 hours after printing. What would you suggest time wise to wait?

Hi Chris

The grabby adhesive will almost certainly be down to outgassing time. I think all vinyl manufacturers would suggest a minimum of 48 hours before laminating … I have seen some recommend 72 hours depending on the ink type.

The glue lines are showing possibly due to insufficient initial squeegee pressure (possibly as it seemed grabby) as Controltac is designed to allow repositioning through its technology but requires more squeegee pressure to activate the adhesive and smash the glass beads in the adhesive. Insufficient squeegee pressure generally results in bubbling/rashing and glue lines which show a few hours or even days later. A car in sunlight will heat up and any air trapped will then expand creating the effect you are seeing.

It might be worth attending a specific 3M wrap training course as all the techniques required will be shown.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

If you’re looking more for a Sign Show then the ISA Sign Expo in US would be worth visiting. I used to go every other year but haven’t been for about 5 years.
It alternates between Vegas and Orlando each year and is always in April. This year it is Vegas 20th-22nd April

Its similar in size to Fespa but more targeted at Signs than Print

http://signexpo.org/

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Daniel Evans:

Thanks guys, I already have a space heater that is perfect but I intend to use it in a corner well away from the vehicle.

This is purely to heat the whole unit up.

The infrared heaters will then shine into the working area to keep the media and section warm.

It’s not perfect but sounds as though it should be fine.

I’m now thinking of using the Avery 1104 media which has been recommended to me, I understand that the 480 material can be a pain if not done at 22 degrees+ and 3m’s in 180 and Avery 1104 are more forgiving

Hi Daniel

Not sure where your information or advice came from regarding the 3M 480 series ? But to clarify 3M’s tech bulletin regarding minimum application temperatures states 10 degrees Celsius for flat application or 16 degrees Celsius for recess panels.

With any wrap product I would suggest ideal temperatures are always going to be around 20 degrees as it makes the film more pliable and the adhesive is at an optimum temperature for initial grab – If anything 480 series (Non PVC) will be better at low temperatures compared to any PVC wrap film as PVC really doesn’t like low temperatures.

If you need any further advice please give us a call

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Ewan Chrystal:

Not ordered yet but will be from William Smith so hopefully they chuck in a squeegee with it [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]

HaHa

Yes Ewan we always supply the specialist squeegee with the Ventureshield kits ….. we don’t even charge you extra !! 😆 😆 :thumbsup:

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Ewan

Wet as you like, as already stated add a drop of Johnsons baby shampoo just to help with slip.

Not sure where you purchased your kit but hopefully you have been supplied a small black flexible squeegee with it ?? This tool is much easier to apply with compared to standard film squeegees.

Apply water to the adhesive side/vehicle but also over spray the face surface when using squeegee and this helps stop any surface scratching.

Once you’ve successfully applied the kit make sure your client is aware to clean off any bird poop immediately …. it stains paint protection films with the chemicals in it and will show yellow on a white car (wont show on a black or very dark car)

If you have issues when applying just lift off and resoak …. that’s the beauty of ventureshield, as long as you use loads of water you get as many chances as you like !!

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Peter Wynne:

We’ve recently had a price increase on HP consumables from PaperGraphics.
Also had some paper price increases from other suppliers, all blaming Brexit and the depreciation of sterling.

Can’t help but feel that Brexit is getting blamed to simply condone uneccessary price increases…?!

I’m sure if someone took the time to investigate, then there’s been little impact on the products companies are actually increasing prices on.

I really don’t think any of these increases we’re seeing are unnecessary – infact I would say most UK distributors and their Global suppliers are holding back as much as possible. The only areas that would be excluded from any impact would be if the manufacturer can source all raw material within the UK, manufacture and convert within the UK and then sell within the UK.

However virtually all SAV sold within the UK is manufactured in Europe or the US. Since the start of the year we have seen the pound drop in value by over 25% against the Euro and around 22% against the US Dollar.

If the manufacturer 3M (Germany & US), Avery (Holland and Germany), Orafol (Germany), MacTac (Belgium), Arlon (US) etc sells in UK £ sterling then they are receiving that percentage less everytime they sell into the UK so they have to raise their pricing. If we the distributor purchase in Euro or Dollar then every time we pay and convert at todays currency we are paying that 22% to 25% more than the start of 2016

Trust me these increases are genuine and between the manufacturers and the distributors we have delayed (hoping for an improvement to the currency slide) and not passed on the full impact of the pricing fluctuation as most of our customers could not handle such significant increases during a 12 month period.

Brexit truly has created this and regardless of who your supplier is eventually these increases have to be passed on or the supply chain wouldn’t survive.

I don’t think we have seen the last of these increases into the market as the current increases I have seen go no way close to covering the true cost of currency fluctuation.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Richard Urquhart:

Hi all after many years and a few different app tapes we use conform 4075 but I have to say I’m not that happy, corners still rolling and makes it hard to store or send out, has anyone found an app tape that works well, stays flat and is OK being rolled up ? Thanks Rich

Hi Rich

Interesting that you’re having issues with RTape Conform as generally this product would normally adhere well to a silicon liner and layflat. Out of interest do you know how "fresh" the roll was ? How long had you had it in your factory ?

The reason I ask is application tape generally uses rubber based adhesive and this dries out quicker than an adhesive system used on vinyl. Normal max shelf life for an app tape is 12 months – generally for common products such as 4075RLA or 4050RLA we turn these within 30 to 45 days max so the adhesive is very fresh and gives maximum performance.

Check with your supplier to make sure you’re not getting out of date stock. Also suggest when you receive a fresh roll put a received date on the inside of your core if you don’t use the roll immediately.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Warren Beard:

So today came the big announcement William Smith has created a new brand under the name of “Smith” which represents the ‘Trade Manufacturing’ division.

So does this mean William Smith is no longer Trade and will be supplying our customers direct?

I’m only speculating but recently had another incident with a different company who also has a “Trade Division” where my customer received better pricing than I received from their Trade Division and our price didn’t include the double sided graphics where the clients prices did, so they were offering cheaper prices including the prints direct to my client then they offered me without prints.

Feels like this is becoming a regular occurrence in the industry.

Hi Warren

To reassure you and the whole of the industry today’s launch of the "SMITH" brand does not change the way we engage with our customers

William Smith has always been a trade manufacturer and when I joined the business some 31 years ago we supplied cut graphics, printed graphics and signage to the UK Sign and Graphics industry …. This has never changed. However over the last 15 years William Smith has become better known as a Material distributor and the launch of SMITH today is designed to differentiate the two parts of the business.

William Smith the Material Distributor and SMITH the trade only manufacturer of signage solutions.

We have a huge customer base of UK Sign and graphic companies and this announcement is only designed to make the trade aware of the varied offerings of material, component and finished signs to the trade.

We have an intensive vetting process for any new customer and any "end user" making enquiries regarding our services is informed that we are trade only and we would suggest them contacting one of our partners for the full service offering. We do not offer installation or surveys etc … That’s where you as our partner comes in.

William Smith only wishes to help our partners increase their offering and allow them to use our large manufacturing resource to aid their own business

I am happy to discuss this directly with anyone requiring more information

I hope this reassures you of our position and I can reassure you that when we say trade only we mean it.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Kevin Busby:

Second vote for LG. Their LD2700 and matching lam LP2812G or M are a very good option and very hard wearing plus the LP 2812 works very well as clear.

I’ve used metamark vinyls for a while but I’m unable to use their mono or poly laminates as I’ve had huge problems with it separating from the vinyl with black backgrounds or large areas of dark print and despite promising to look into it their only reply was that unofficially hp admits that their latex range does require a degassing period even though I’ve never had a problem with any other laminates in the last three years of using latex.

Hi Kevin

Just a point regarding Latex prints and adhesion of laminates. There are currently 3 versions of HP Latex ink on the market V1 (oldest/original – L25500 series printers) V2 (L26500/260 series) and most recent V3 (L360 etc). Each version has had slight variances to the ink and all vary with the amount of "sweating" that occurs after printing. This is most noticeable of heavy ink loads especially Black or dark colours and certainly has caused issue for a number of laminates from most of the film manufacturers – Best advice is to outgas any Latex print with solid areas of dense colour for at least 24 hours …. This is due to the fact that with full coverage of dense colours the water has to come out of the ink – the initial cure will skin the ink but the water trapped under the skin will sweat/oil on the surface for a day or two afterwards when large solid areas of dark colours are printed. This doesn’t cause the same issues as a solvent ink being trapped and making the film sticky/stretchy but will effect adhesion levels of some laminates.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Jon Miller:

Thanks for the responses guys!
Yes, all that you have mentioned had crossed my mind but wanted to hear some input anyway.
Media was matching, MD3AB and MD3 lam.
As you say, seems to be an overly even lift around the circle suggesting tension issues..

Hi Jon

Looking at the photos and the spec of the film you have used I think you have the "perfect storm" for a failure such as this.

I don’t think it is one specific reason why this has failed but a combination of factors –

(1) MD3 – This is a monomeric film and regardless of what any manufacturers spec sheet says I would never recommend anyone using a monomeric film for vehicle graphics unless it was for a short term application i.e. up to a year …. monomeric films are just too unstable once printed and I would recommend switching up to a polymeric film as a minimum for permanent vehicle graphics.

(2) The surface you have applied to appears to be a matt vinyl …. This adds complication no 2 as a matt or satin surface will always have a lower surface energy than either gloss vinyl or the factory painted vehicles. You may even have to use an aggressive adhesive film for this application (metamark’s spec sheet for MD3AB states not suitable for low energy surfaces)

(3) As others have already suggested if there has been too much tension on the laminator then shrinkage/edge curling is not uncommon – This is particularly problematic with monomeric films as the chemistry of the product makes them less stable and more likely to shrink/curl.

I would suggest upgrading as a minimum to a polymeric combination such as MD5 or similar and you may need to consider using a more aggressive adhesive type that would be suitable for low energy surfaces. Finally reduce braking/tension on the lamination process to minimise shrinkage and curl.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Craig Kerr Harkness:

I have never heard of thermal shock risk, that is very interesting. On a much simpler note, the contravision we use always has a black backing, is there a product available which has a white back so that the outlook for people internally is not black.

Hi Craig

The way that Contravision (or other one way vision products) works requires a black adhesive side. The black grid or skeleton (or dots on original Contravision) allows the human eye to "see through" the holes as if it is a tinted window. If you had a White adhesive (or very light colour) the eye cannot see though the stronger base colour.

Contravision is available for specialist applications in a translucent white version where it is white both sides. This allows it to appear as a illuminated image at night time (from outside) but will not give full see through visibility from the inside.

Hope this makes sense

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Stewart Dawson:

Hi Guys,

I have a customer requesting to have their windows covered in black vinyl but they still want to be able to see out of the window. Obviously contravision is the answer, but my question is…

Do I have to buy in contravision material and print black or is there any other vinyl alternatives?

Thanks in advance!

Hi Stewart

My advice is be very careful with covering any window with a large area of Black. As Black is the most absorbent of all colours you risk Thermal Shock on the glass and the glass "exploding" or cracking.

You really need to consider a risk assessment based on position i.e. South facing, North etc and how much sunlight can hit it during the day. Also to see if there any permanent shadows on part of the glass that can create two different temperatures on the glass (even greater risk of Thermal Shock)

If there is no risk (or no direct sunlight) then you could possibly use a perforated technology but dependent on lighting conditions if it is black both sides then in theory it will serve very little purpose as you will see in as much as out.

Other products to consider would be tinted solar films designed for glass (although you still need to speak to a specialist about Thermal Shock risk) There are many versions of film but most of the "privacy" solar films are silver and black solar normally used in automotive applications.

Final thing to consider is the ambient lighting both sides of the glass – when using solar films or black tinted transparent films if the lighting is stronger on the inside than outside you actually create a mirror on the inside and can see through from the outside – this will always happen on retail, office etc applications in the winter in dusk and night time situations.

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Phil

Greys or any neutral colour are notoriously difficult to manage, especially when dealing with "lighter" tones such as your background.

Quite often these can be further corrupted if there is a significant strong colour used elsewhere in the file that adds to the cast over the tint.

Our print guys don’t mess with the profiles to resolve individual colours such as these as each job could be different. We would normally start with the CMYK make up of the background colour and produce a strip of 4" squares/swatches of the original CMYK makeup and start reducing the Magenta by 2%, then another 2% on next one etc. You can also do the same with another strip by adding Cyan or reducing Yellow/Cyan if you have a green cast.

Our print manager has made up a master "pantone" chart for all of our printers and when trying to match up colours will refer to the CMYK chart printed off our own printers and then tweek one starting point until they hit the correct shade.

You will inevitably get slight shifts in colour from batch to batch of ink or even humidity etc can effect these more sensitive shades but with a little time spent making a custom swatch for this grey you should be able to lose the magenta cast.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Robert Lambie:

Personally i would just use a regular over laminate Martin. or is your customer complaining of colour matching issues affected by the laminate? I say colour matching as i cant see the need for optically clear on something like contravision.

Hi Rob

Sorry to disagree :shake: but you 100% should always use an optically clear laminate with Contravision perforated products. The whole concept of perforated graphics is "one way vision" i.e. you see out (the black coated side) and don’t see in (the white printed side) – If you use a standard overlaminate you cannot see correctly through the perforations as the adhesive will "blur" visibility …. a little like looking thorough a misted up window, it will allow light or blurred images to be seen but you couldn’t read a book through it.

If you use a non optically clear overlaminate on the rear window for example you would not be able to see vehicles behind you correctly. There are also requirements for public transport advertising (buses, taxis etc) that if you didn’t use an optically clear laminate then passengers cannot see out and can suffer from travel sickness as well.

Hi Martin

Regarding where to buy – I would suggest first of all contact whoever supplied your perforated product and if they cant help then I suggest find a supplier that understands the technology 😉 😀

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Steve Curry:

Thank you very much Stuart for the response, I like the idea of the new film and definitely want to give it a try, but on this occasion I decided to stick with what we know and go with the IJ380.

Unfortunately and this is not a criticism aimed at 3M or yourself, but too many times before has their been a ‘fantastic’ new material introduced to the market that doesn’t live up to it’s claims once it’s used in the real world.. at them moment the only information I can find on this material is theoretical or statements produced by 3M themselves.

Stuart – Could you answer a couple of questions for me:
Is there any demonstrations and long term application trials in the UK of this material?
Have you had any feed back from end users you have supplied?
Are short sample rolls available to purchase so we can carry out our own evaluations on the material?

Thanks

Steve

Hi Steve

Totally understand where you’re coming from and I would agree on an existing program stick with what is working for you.

480 has been around now about 18 months in the open market but never got much traction in the UK as initially it was only available as a Latex printable option and initial pricing (as a new technology) was around 15% higher than IJ380.

In the last few months a additional solvent and UV printable range has been launched and also pricing has been realigned to be the same price per sqm as IJ380.

Since the relaunch we have a large number of our regular 180 and 380 customers trial the product and over half of them have now switched to 480 as their product of choice.

Regarding your concerns over the product, trust me when I tell you that 3M are ultra conservative when coming to releasing new technology ….. 480 is manufactured in the US and this product undergoes both real-time outdoor/weather/temperature/UV trials (Nevada to Alaska) and every accelerated lab weathering test you could imagine.

We as a 3M Distributor don’t deal with the end users, only digital print companies/wrap companies etc but if you want we could put you in contact with some of the businesses that are using the product regularly.

Finally the product is available at 1372mm x 50m or 25m rolls/kits but we do have large pre-printed samples that you could play around with.

If you want to trial this just give the sales office a call and they will arrange for your account manager to bring a sample in for you.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Rob

I probably didn’t make myself 100% clear – 480 still uses a repositionable adhesive system. However the new face film technology allows 3M to add the benefit of the Comply CV3 airflow technology that makes application quicker and simpler without increasing risk on failure in recessed areas.

This is an all new face film technology that has the benefit of ultra long life but with a non pvc material. It’s the new face film technology that makes it virtually foolproof in recessed areas as opposed to the adhesive system or application technique having to do all of the work.

3M have invested a $billion in developing the technology in the US to create this product range – I am sure eventually other manufacturers may try to replicate this film but at the moment 3M as always innovate and create new technologies and others try to follow.

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Steve

Just thought I would clarify a few points regarding the 3M 480 series product.

I wouldn’t say it is "better" than IJ380 which for many is the benchmark for deep recess wrapping, however it certainly has some additional benefits over IJ380 that may suit users.

Firstly as you say it is Non PVC and a completely new manufacturing technology – most Non PVC products are either PP or Polyester and usually suffer from short lifetime and/or brittle or stiffness. 480 has been designed by 3M to be super conformable and once applied/post heated suffers from no memory …. most cast PVC products are supposed to do this but many have inferior chemistry or adhesive technology.
Second benefit is that it has the CV3 Comply "air channel" technology so application is easier and quicker compared to IJ380 that does not use airflow (to maximise adhesion in the deep recesses) but due to the different film technology it can handle an airflow technology and not fail in recess areas.
Third Benefit is the very robust and high gloss level of the laminate (also Non PVC) and is more resistant to scratches etc
Final main benefit is removal (something no one worries about until they have to do it) but most cast PVC films can be very difficult to remove and break/snap during the process. 480’s technology allows it to be removed in much larges pieces and speeds up removal significantly.

Finally I should also point out it is not cheaper than 3M IJ380, but is exactly the same price …. however it is on promotion during this launch period 😉

Please Note application technique is different to IJ380 but full application guidelines are available via our sales office

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Walsall College provide a NVQ Level 2 Course in Signmaking and Intermediate/Advanced Apprenticeships in Signmaking

Just google "Walsall college signmaking"

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Daniel Evans:

Thanks Stuart

Do you have any details on costs of a hp310 / 360 vs a competitor model you can email me

Thanks

Hi Daniel

As I said to Billy we don’t actually sell printers anymore. I would suggest for a new HP Latex printer to give CWE Solutions and/or Perfect Colours a call. They’re the most established of all the HP Latex dealers.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Daniel

Not bad information but possibly skewed by the industry being used to long life (and expensive) piezo head technology

HP Latex uses Thermal Inkjet head technology so the heads are classed as a consumable – Benefits are they are relatively cheap to replace and operator replaceable …. no engineer required.

Street pricing varies on these but each head (there are 6 per machine) but you will probably pay £70 to £80 per head – They are warranted for 1 litre of ink through them and an average usable life for a set of 6 heads could be anything from 1000 to 2000 sqm dependant on images/coverage etc – I know many users will push the heads even further but eventually you will see a deterioration in image quality and/or colour vibrancy as the heads "tire" – Its a judgement call from the operator really to see if the quality is still there ……. We just build it into our sqm consumable cost that is charged as part of every job, therefore maintaining quality with no big surprises when you need to replace a head.

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Daniel Evans:

Stuarts right on the media for the epson, I didn’t think about the vinyl you would be using, there are some available but you are limited.

Stuart
I was told that latex printers could only use vinyl that were designed for latex printers, meaning other vinyls available to solvent printers could not be used on these latex printers?

There seems to be loads of old 25500 / 26500 on the market at a fraction of the cost of when they were new, I understand printers will devalue but can anyone explain why the solvent printers hold their value better?

Hi Daniel

There is a lot of bad information out there about Latex, in particular HP Latex which is probably the dominant new sales unit on the market in terms of number of units these days.

Regarding the media pretty much any standard films print as well if not better on Latex with a couple of exceptions. I know Avery had an issue with their 1900/1950 series cast films on Latex some time ago but as a rule 3M, Avery, Metamark, Arlon and Orafol all print very well on all 3 versions of the HP Latex technology. We have used all 3 versions of the technology and although each ink series has slight variations they all print on 99% of standard media in the market place. Another advantage that Latex has is that you can also print on many banners, mesh, fabrics and papers which would be problematic on some solvent technologies.

Regarding a lot of printers available second hand is probably down to Latex users regularly upgrading/trade in from L25500 to L26500 (L260) to the latest L3XX range.

If you’re looking at purchasing a second hand Latex go for the second generation system (L26500) as HP improved many features from L25 to L26 versions …. They would be a newer printer as well. The fact that they’re relatively cheap to buy second hand should be a positive :lol1:

If buying second hand make sure you see it printing though and remember you will still need a RIP (Onyx is my preferred option with Latex)

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Billy

HaHa, I guess I sounded like a HP Sales person 😉 No we don’t supply printers any longer, only media

We do however use HP Latex within our trade printing facility and have been printing with Latex since the launch back in 2009. We only use Latex and UV printing technology now and don’t use any solvent printing at all now. We are now on the 3rd generation of the technology and at each new generation they continue to improve quality, performance, reliability etc.

Would suggest you contact either CWE solutions or Perfect Colours and I’m sure they would be able to help you.

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Billy

Personally I would still look at the Latex option for a number of reasons

The Latex will give you versatility than the Epson 7900 or 9900 as these are for interior use only and I’m not even sure you can print onto self adhesive vinyl at all on this platform – as far as I was aware they can only print on limited media, mainly paper. Latex will give you a far wider selection of medias.

The Latex 310 entry model will allow you to print on any standard self adhesive vinyl in the market, plus banners, fabrics and papers if you want. With the Latex you don’t even need to laminate (unless its for longer term outdoor or a very abrasive use) and you can print directly onto Matt White digital printing film.

Latex use is very simple these days and the power consumption of the 310 is only 2.2KW/h when printing (between 25p to 30p per hour depending on your utility supplier) so not that expensive to run. If you’re printing at 10 pass (indoor high quality) you will be getting approx. 10sqm per hour …. in other words the power consumption works out at 2.5p to 3p per sqm. This is a common misconception that HP’s competitors put out that the running costs of Latex are very high.

[Stuart Taylor]

quote David Hammond:

Cheers guys.

Yes we’re not printing, just fitting, onto tarmac roadway, and smooth paved footpaths.

I suspect it may be mactac as that’s the media we’ve used on previous jobs for the customer.

Not sure where we’re going to get power from for the heat gun!

Hi David

I don’t have personal experience of the Mactac Streetwrap but if its like the 3M Exterior Pavement Graphics it will only be suitable for pedestrian foot traffic, not vehicular.

Looking at the Mactac product leaflet online I read it as suitable for pedestrian use on pavements (sidewalks as it was a US leaflet), concrete or asphalt.

As a sidenote the 3M product does not require heat but has a minimum suggested application temperature of 21c to ensure a good bond to the ground.

If it ends up being 3M pavement graphics then simply google 3M pavement graphic application instructions and open the document 5.33

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote David Hammond:

We’ve been asked by a customer to install some external floor graphics.

Having never worked with this stuff previously, we’re not sure how to go about the install? I’m awaiting confirmation as to what media they’re supplying and the technical data sheets.

Any hints and tips will be greatly appreciated!

Hi David

I assume you’re not printing the graphics, just fitting ?? Do you know where the product is going to be applied and to what surface i.e. Tarmac pavement, Tarmac road surface, concrete car park, marble/granite smooth slabs, rough paving slabs etc ??

Once you know the surface and the application (as well as the product) it will be easier to advise methods or suitability

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Pete

No problem at all and glad it helped

I don’t think you’re the only one that will have suffered from this – As you say the printer will tell if the Printhead is broken/faulty/damaged and to change it, but it wont advise you that the Printhead is getting "tired".

I normally suggest to users to print a good colour reference print with various pantones/process colours when they first get a printer or change to new printheads. Then you can reprint this same reference file if you’re experiencing issues in the future to check colour vibrancy.

Its also useful to do this if you have particular repeat contracts to print a reference print at the start of each contract (ideally on fresh printheads) which will help produce consistent prints over the length of a contract.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Peter

Might sound a daft question but do you change the print heads regularly ? Latex technology is so different to Solvent/Eco Sol as it uses Thermal ink jet print heads.

They are viewed as a consumable (and only warranted for 1 litre of ink through them) – On average we used to say best performance from colour and vibrancy is within the first 4 litres (approx. 5 cartridges)

During the lifetime more and more nozzles will block and although the printer will still print you will suffer an ever less vibrant palette of colours.

If you have never changed a print head (and have used more than 5 cartridges for each colour) I would suggest order a full new set of print heads and replace them.

If your heads are really old this could fix the problem without the need of an engineer (they are operator replaceable)

You should be able to check your printer log and see how many litres has gone through each print head before you decide to replace

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Phil

Officially anywhere that the public has access to, including supermarket car parks, business parks etc ALL "Road Traffic Signs" must be CE marked. This includes speed restriction, Give Way and any directional type signs – Excluded from this are pay and display signs … they do not need to be CE marked.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Got to agree with others

This is a combination of using a monomeric film with potentially heavy ink load i.e. 4 colour Black, insufficient outgassing for the ink load and potentially too much tension on lamination.

Regarding MD3 working previously compared to Hexis 3000 is like comparing one car make to another …. they’re all made of metal, have rubber tyres and use fuel to go but the performance can be completely different dependent on the quality of the raw materials and manufacturing methods.

I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with Hexis 3000 or Metamark MD3 – For that matter I wouldn’t recommend any of our customers use 3M IJ25 monomeric for a 3 year vehicle application – The problem is product choice and vinyl manufacturers constantly over positioning lifetime on their spec sheets that leads to the wrong product being used.

A 3 year flat vehicle application should be a polymeric film every time. I constantly have this battle with manufacturers. Some even specify its unprinted life of up to 5 years for a monomeric … what use is that to anyone buying a print film ??

We would always advise monomeric for promotional short term use only, realistically up to 12 to 18 months max outside, as you will experience shrinkage and adhesive exposure after this time. Polymeric for up to 3 years outdoor (some will push up to 5 years) and Cast for anything longer or any application that requires stressing the film (heat stretching, wrapping etc)

I know many printers/sign companies will push the manufacturers spec sheets to the limits but if you want hassle free production then always stay on the conservative side of a spec.

The difference in cost of raw material between Polymeric and Monomeric is probably less than £0.75 per sqm for the base film and same for laminate. Worth if you’re producing several hundred sqm for a short term job but not worth the risk on a few sq m at the limit (or beyond) of its designed use.

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Billy

The issue you are experiencing would be the same if you are printing on any standard clear laminate or even a standard clear print film. The issue is not the laminate but the adhesive. Nearly all vinyl manufacturers use a transparent non optically clear solvent based adhesive system for laminates and printing films. This might sound stupid but a standard laminate does not require an optically clear adhesive when applied to a solid print as when you have direct contact and zero distance between print and laminate you get perfect clarity on your image.

However when you want to see through the transparent background for a transparent window print the distance between eye, glass and beyond creates diffusion when using a standard adhesive system which can appear like a frosted crystal. For this application you will need a specialist optically clear transparent film with optically clear adhesive. These tend to be more expensive but will give almost perfect glass like clarity when viewing through them.

Just make sure when talking to your supplier the product they supply has optically clear adhesive.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Gil Johnson:

Have you tried William Smith? Venture shield is now owned by 3M – I’m pretty sure they stock it.

Gil

Hi Jason as Gil states we are 3M’s official Master distributor for Ventureshield – We can supply in rolls, sheets or pre cut kits for the bumpers and bonnets for most cars and vans on the road. Unfortunately no kits for doors but they’re relatively easy to install from a sheet.

Its almost invisible on a gloss painted car when fitted

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Jess

The problem you face is most manufacturers matt colour vinyls are a monomeric face film with a water based adhesive system. They will tend to be thicker than higher quality films (80 to 100micron) and the water based adhesive will make it easier to remove/more difficult to adhere to low energy surfaces, especially emulsion painted walls.

Your alternatives are to look at the new ranges of matt car wrap films which most of the vinyl manufacturers now produce …. these will still be thicker than a standard cast film but will give you more dimensional stability and better adhesion. Other options would be to digitally print your colour choice onto a high grab cast or polymeric base film and laminate with a matt laminate …. will generally be a thicker option (75 – 150 micron dependant on film choice) but gives you an unlimited palette of colours and you can produce as little or much as you need. Finally if you don’t have digital printing options you can always laminate any standard cast or polymeric colour with a matt laminate … if you do this make sure base colour and matt laminate are the same manufacturing technology i.e. cast base/cast lam, polymeric base/polymeric lam …. this helps keep the laminated product stable to itself.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi James

Sounds like the heat setting is way too high – with Latex L25 and L26 models you should be able to cure/dry at no more than 110 degrees.

I have seen machines set as high as 130 degrees so they can print faster but this can cause the liner to blister …. Its actually cooking the PE coating on the liner. When we have suggested they drop temp down to 110 degrees and print at 10pass this generally cures any issues.

Best thing is to try dropping temp gradually as George has suggested, however if you drop temp too low you will have to increase pass rate (therefore slowing the print speed) to cure your print.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Jonathan

From the picture it looks like it could be Arlon Citrine CWC-854

If you need a colour sample to check in the flesh just contact our sales office and they will get you one in the post for you. Its a standard stocked product.

I would be surprised if its 3M 1080-G364 Fiery Orange as its not available in UK yet. The US launched these new colours a little while ago but will be launched in the UK in early 2015 …. We haven’t even got the colours yet. If it is it has been specially imported through the US.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi John

I cant comment for all manufacturers guidance on this but with 3M Floor Graphic materials when an image is wider than roll width all joins must be butt jointed.

Regarding lifetime again for 3M they offer 3 versions a short term 3 months interior, a longer term 12 month interior product and an exterior product (with a much rougher surface to help with non slip when wet). I have not seen (or trust) an offer for a self adhesive floor graphic to be warranted for longer than a year – This is not because of the quality/performance of the films but it would be difficult to predict/control the amount of foot traffic to guarantee longer performance.

I have seen the product last many years when applied to ultra smooth surfaces as there is less chance of the product lifting but I would doubt any manufacturer would warrant longer than a year.

Finally it is not uncommon for very large floor graphics to be produced. In particular in the US they cover huge areas with floor graphic for advertising or pure artistic purposes. Just remember butt joint (best done using an overlap during application, cut though both layers and peel away excess before dropping back down to give a perfect seam)

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Mike

The short lifetime is on the "non reflective" Fluorescent colours – This is typically 3 months to 3 years depending on how good (or bad) the product is and how much you want to spend.

On Reflectives, these again vary but the high grade Diamond Grade reflective from 3M has a 12 year warranty for standard colours and 10 years for Fluorescent.

The High Grade Prismatic Reflectives and non reflective Fluorescents are completely different beasts.

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Mike

Normal ESV (Emergency Services) spec would use Reflective Green and Reflective Fluorescent Yellow/Green in a battenburg design down sides of the Ambulance. The rear uses a chevron design where again Reflective Fluorescent Yellow Green and Reflective Fluorescent Orange colours are used. These are generally high grade Prismatic products. Each Emergency service (Police, Fire and Ambulance) has its own colour combinations.

Chapter 8 guidelines are aimed at vehicles working on the highways or requiring high visibility. This is a different specification than used by ESV. This is primarily a rear chevron marking that uses Reflective Red and Non reflective Fluorescent Yellow. As a side note most manufacturers non reflective fluorescent films will "white out" anything between 3 months and 3 years dependent on the manufacturer …. Its inherent in these products and I have rarely seen any manufacturer give a warranty for non reflective Fluorescent longer than 2 to 3 years and many are as low as 3 to 6 months.

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Damian

To identify your problems properly we could do with product codes but possibly some of the issues could be as follows –

If the Mactac wrap film is the JT5529 range then this is not a cast film but a 55micron calendered product which would probably be fine in normal wrapping but much trickier than a cast in deep recesses.

The Avery blistering problem … was it an Easy Apply product i.e. air channels in the liner/adhesive ? If so the blistering could be from overheating in the recesses causing the air channels to expand and therefore blister.

The 3M Controltac product …. This i’m more familiar with but was it IJ180 or IJ380 ? Both these ranges use Controltac technology – IJ180 comes with CV3 Comply (air channel) liner and would be more suitable for standard fleet work. The IJ380 does not use this air channel technology as it is designed for deep recess work and therefore requires 100% adhesion contact in these areas.

Controltac is an adhesive technology 3M invented many years ago where 000’s of small glass beads are embedded in the adhesive layer, floating on the surface to allow easy repositioning on a vehicle. The adhesive is activated by using firm and even pressure with a hard squeegee (ideally 3M Gold Squeegee) This then pushes the glass beads through the adhesive layer giving full contact to the vehicle.

The small bubbles you describe are normally seen several hours or even days later if insufficient or uneven pressure was used on the initial application and thefore looks like a rash as the surface heats up and trapped air expands.

I would sugest check your squeegee edge, use more pressure over the whole area and you will also need to invest in a 3M application roller for the deep recesses to ensure sufficient pressure is used in the depths of the channel.

If you let us know the exact products used this would help identify if these best guesses are possible.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Bob

The HP8000s was basically a rebadged Seiko 64 ColorPainter

Unfortunately HP stopped supporting this platform about a year ago (as they have moved from Solvent to Latex print technology) and it was only a matter of time that the remaining official HP ink was exhausted.

We had a number of customers that were on this platform and one of the options I could find on their behalf was to switch to a 3rd party ink system (bulk or cartridge) which quite often required a firmware upgrade on the printer.

The other alternative we found was to switch to the standard Seiko ColorPainter V-64S LX Solvent Ink Cartridge. This can be sourced through an official Seiko reseller.

We put one of customers in touch with ColourGen at Maidenhead and as far as I am aware it works absolutely fine..

Might be worth you giving them a call as I am sure these cartridges are plug and play.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Martin

Most important rule is apply dry (you may already be doing this). Water trapped in the perforations will cause issues with drying and therefore start lifting in areas as you cannot squeegee out all the water as you would with a solid non perforated vinyl.

Second rule is use a laminate with optically clear adhesive that is compatible with the type of perforated film. For example most perforated films are polymeric pvc vinyl, whereas many optically clear films are polyester – This mis match can cause tunneling or bubbling as PVC stretches and shrinks but polyester won’t give. Therefore you would ideally put a optically clear polymeric laminate with a polymeric perforated base film.

Finally check temperature of glass (especially if on a vehicle) At this time of year you should treat it like a wrap and have the vehicle indoors in a heated wrapping bay/unit ideally overnight to bring the glass up to a good temperature. Then apply good pressure and allow the adhesive to cure for several hours at a good ambient temperature.

If graphic is going on a rear car window then there could be additional curverture to consider and upgrading to a cast optically clear laminate could help to stretch the print to the curved glass.

Final point I would raise is if applying to a vehicle you should always laminate as road dirt etc will quickly fill in the perforations especially at this time of year. This makes it quite difficult to keep clean as rear windscreen wipers etc will not clear in the depth of the perforation. It also leads to poor visibility and can even cause motion sickness to passengers if they cannot see out properly.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi John

Simple answer is No 🙂

As far as I am led to believe the new book will be split into sections, grouping like signage together i.e. all warning signs together, then the regulations will be at the end of each section as opposed to the front and back of the book. In certain instances items like road markings and signage would be grouped together in a section when they are used inconjuction with each other i.e. parking restrictions and yellow lines.

The information should be easier to access in the new version, however it could take some getting used to as it will be a different layout to what you are used to.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi John

Yes we are aware of this and have had discussions regarding any major changes at the ARTSM (Association of Road Traffic Safety and Management) meetings.

As far as Warning and Regulatory signage (Triangles and Circles) there should be no effect on sizes etc. There may be some minor changes on supplementary plates and parking restriction signage but nothing that cannot be easily implemented. And no changes regarding other forms of design such as typestyles or colours.

Apparently the new handbook will have a completely different layout that will probably cause more issues than the minor design changes that come in.

We were last advised that the handbook would be available April 2015 …. but dont hold me to that 😉

[Stuart Taylor]

Strange One this

Surely this is the responsibility of the ink supplier in Coventry you are trying to purchase from ?? This is not the problem of either the carrier or for you to solve yourself.

We supply 00000’s of ink cartridges per year by carrier (not Mimaki SS2 so not touting for any business here).

We normally use TNT …. some of the ink types (Latex for example) we supply are classed as non hazardous and have zero restriction (even though they are liquid) and even mild solvent inks or UV inks in many cases are classed as non hazardous.

A handful of specialist inks we supply are classed as hazardous and have a UN number … we as the supplier are responsible for this – we simply fill out shipping forms including UN number for the carrier and the carrier then can ship the ink. With the latter there is a consignment limit that the carrier can handle in one consignment (approx 5 litres from memory but the supplier of the ink should check this with the carrier)

The ink supplier should be used to providing this information for any carrier and the supplier should be up to date with any product they are supplying. The ink manufacturer would supply the ink supplier with the relevent MSDS information and any UN numbers.

If your supplier can’t help I would suggest finding an official supplier of Mimaki inks that can as this should not be an issue.

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi John

Not sure which company’s rep showed you this product but as we were all in a sales meeting Monday through Wednesday morning and after talking to Sarah I know it wasnt ourselves.

I thought I needed to correct the information you were told about post heating. We are running a wrap course at our head office today and I have both the senior 3M application engineer and a senior 3M account manager and both have confirmed my understanding that when used for vehicle wrapping –

480 MUST be post heated and uses the same official application method from 3M as IJ180 which is post heated to 100degrees.

The other points are correct that this is a non PVC product, it does has a very glossy laminate. It is also much easier to remove without breaking into small pieces and has a maximum of a 12 year life expectency …. which is very unusual for a non PVC product.

Sarah will call you directly to clarify product details

Hope this helps clarify for anyone who has read this thread as not post heating could certainly lead to a product failure.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote John Harding:

anyone got a link to register the one I tried was broken 🙁

Hi John

Main Fespa site is back up and running again …. get in fast before it crashes again

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Stephen

Yes Paint Protection Film is clear. Standard product we carry is 3M Ventureshield. Most products on the market have a gloss finish to match standard paint finishes but Ventureshield (and others) are now adding Matt finishes to either go over a Matt wrap or on Matt painted finishes.

Application of PPF is the total opposite to normal Film wrapping …… lots and lots of water !!! front and back – Lots of videos on Ventureshield and other PPF on YouTube to show methods

Also, most people only cover front bumper, bonnet, wing mirrors and sometimes wings with a PPF ….. possibly down to cost as PPF is generally much more expensive than a standard PVC film

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Stephen

No to DVLA as its not classed as a permanent colour change – However I know it is prudent to talk to your insurance company as it may be classed as a modification, or they may want to charge an additional premium as it would add additional cost to repairs if damaged.

Regarding how far you go depends on how much time/money you want to spend on it. Covering all elements including sills, door inners etc well add a lot of time and some of these areas are quite complex as well …. also depends on how different the original paint colour will be to the new wrap to how much it would show or stand out on opening the doors/boot etc.

If you’ve never wrapped a full vehicle before then i would advise you either bring in a specialist wrapper or invest in a decent wrap course and be prepared to redo a number of times before you’ve mastered the art ….. quite different fully wrapping a car than normal vehicle or sign graphic application.

Finally you may want to consider a paint protection film instead of a full wrap if you’re actually just wanting to protect the paintwork. Standard PVC films will protect only very minor abrasions but any stones etc will still break down a wrap. Paint protection film being much thicker and Urethane rather than PVC will protect most that will be thrown up by a dirt track …. other than hitting a tree/wall or other vehicle 🙂

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi All

By the way anyone that has never experienced a FESPA show is in for a shock ….

Its huge !!! Probably at least 10 times the size of Sign and Digital spread over 2 large halls ….. I think the HP stand is about as big as the whole of Sign and Digital this year 😀

I visit every year (this is the first time it has come to the UK) and normally allow 2 or 3 full days to do the show justice.

We are exhibiting so pop along to say hello and have a chat

Hope to see you there

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi John

This can be a common problem when using laminators to apply app tape. As you stated its worse on print and cut jobs I would guess this is down to varying tensions and thickness of products combined with your liner paper.

Things that may help
Make sure your print film has a PE Liner rather than standard paper – This should give you more stability and will be effected less by moisture, humidty and temperature changes …. something that will stop your liner laying flat.

Always use the same quality/match of laminate to the base film i.e. Cast/Cast or Polymeric/Polymeric etc never mix qualities as this can also give you different levels of stretch during the lamination process.

On Print and Cut jobs always apply app tape asap after weeding as the more time the liner is exposed after weeding will create rippling due to the released tensions.

Finally you may find this process easier with a flatbed laminator as you have much greater control (and can spot the creases before they become an issue) than roll to roll laminators ….. As you state once a roll to roll laminator starts creasing it just keeps going.

Hope this helps you solve your issues

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Martin

The Arlon UPP uses their RP adhesive system which is also used on the Arlon 6000RP Cast Digital Wrapping Film. This adhesive is specifically designed for wrapping and has an initial low tack which can be lifted and repositioned as much as you need during the application process. The Automotive X air channel pattern is again designed specifically for this range with air channels which are large enough to allow bubbles etc to flow out during the application process but small enough that after fitting you have no visible show through which you get with some other manufacturers air channels.

And yes we have full swatches available showing the true material, just give our sales office a ring and they will get you one out by return.

Hi Chris

Glad you’ve tried the product out for yourself, please give us some feedback when you’ve finished the wrap. You are correct that the Arlon UPP is marginally thicker than the 3M 1080 series, Arlon UPP is a 100 micron cast product and the 3M 1080 is a 90 micron cast product and as you say with the UPP being a metallic it will always feel a little stiffer with the metalized particles in the product.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Chris

Arlon have completely reworked the UPP car wrap product so its relaunched with the same colours as last year but with a reformulated adhesive system and air release liner technology called Automotive X – Makes the product much easier to work with.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Stephen Morriss:

William Smiths run one a few time a year.

Hoping to do it myself in the near future.

Steve

As Steve has stated we run a two day course every month (sometimes twice depending on demand)

Latest one running as we speak and I think next available course is 11th and 12th Feb with 3 spaces left

Contact Lindsay at lgamble@williamsmith.co.uk if you need more details

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Jacob

Really depends on the printer and ink type

For example with Latex you have no retained solvents so you’re pretty much ready to go. With most solvents or eco solvents you would need to outgas for a minimum of 24 hours at room temperature and with good ventilation and airflow over the printed area – Many people consider just leaving the print rolled up on a core for 24 hours to be outgassing but unfotunately unless the print is able to breathe the solvents are still trapped whilst the roll is wound up ….. please note however that 24 hours is a minimum, depending on the image and amount of ink layed down (i.e. dark solid colours) i’ve seen people having to outgas for 48 or 72 hours before laminating. Always best to check with the printer and/or ink manufacturers guidelines on outgassing.

[Stuart Taylor]

Think the problem is definately with the laminate – As it is a monomeric product (whereas the IJ40 is polymeric) it will be much more susceptible to shrinking than a stabilized polymeric product. As George states IJ40 is a very stable printing film and very unlikely to shrink when matched with a polymeric laminate – 3M match IJ40 and 40C with either the printable IJ40-114 (gloss) and IJ40-124 (matt) or non printable 8019 (gloss) and 8020 (matt) … the latter two give a more competitive solution as a kit.

I would also make sure that the print is fully outgassed before lamination as this can compound shrinkage even with a correctly matched solution.

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Adam

Glad you got sorted

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Adam Comerford:

Morning all, in need of some assistance or perhaps guidance!

we’ve got a nice little setup where when we print and cut not a problem at all, although i do have sometimes pull the repeater cable out every now and again to get the plotter working. but the main issue is that at this point we dont have signlab or any other software to directly cut vinyl. i was recommended to use winplot so headed over to summas website downloaded the latest version upon installing and running could not find the cutter in the list to install, so trying nearly everyone and getting absolutely no where, contacted summa and basically they were no help whatsoever, spoken to our supplier whom we purchased the cutter from and they’re no help either! so im sort of stuck in the middle and not being able to cut any vinyls other than ones that come from the printer. frustrating just a little bit. Even when the RIP software was installed apparently they had to use a slightly different driver as the plotter is rather new. does anyone have any suggestions or tricks to get around this problem?!

Hi Adam

Could be a couple of issues you’re experiencing

Firstly you will need to make sure that when you want to run winplot you should not have cut server running as well, running 2 sets of software to the same cutter at the same time can cause conflict

Secondly (and more the likely issue) when you run Winplot for the first time it will ask you to select cutter – for some reason D160R does not exist in the list provided by Summa. Our IT guys have told me that you just select D160 from the list, then select your USB or serial port that you are connected through and you should be away

Hope this helps

Let me know if still a problem and I will ask our IT guys if they have any other ideas

Not sure why Summa or whoever supplied you the cutter couldnt help with this as it is standard install/setup procedure

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Clive

Looks like you have bought a film with a water based adhesive (contact with water will cause the milkiness) – Most monomeric films will have a water based adhesive system whereas most polymeric and cast films use solvent based adhesive systems.

Check with your supplier what adhesive your film has but your choices will be switch to a solvent based adhesive system and apply wet or stick with what you have and apply dry (which for a reverse window application will be tricky and may create too many air bubbles or silvering)

Will it go away ? …. It may reduce as it dries out but dark printed areas will probably always shows some discolouration

[Stuart Taylor]

Just checked the APA website and the AP/790-FT is actually a 55 micron "calendered" product … it is NOT cast film.

I would be dubious about fitting even simple single step shallow recesses with a calendered product, let alone one with air channels. Their website does state as follows –
"Ultra permanent highly conformable film to completely cover flat and curved surfaces. Glue with small air-channels "Air free FTX System". Thickness 55 µm"

I think this could be the main reason the product is failing, calendered products are not designed for recessed areas and stretching in deep channels.

I think I would agree with most that this application should only be attempted using a specialist cast film without air channels that is designed for channel recess applications.

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Robert Lambie:

Hi Stuart,

out of interest…
Can Vikuiti be tiled and then projected onto or does the join create problems?

I only purchased a couple of bits of the rear projection film, so didn’t have anything i could experiment with. i.e. tiles

also, can Vikuiti be cut in a cutting Plotter?
I know the film can be cut into almost any sort of shape then projected onto, but wondered if this was done in a plotter or would a flatbed cutter be needed?

again, i never got to experiment this far with what i had.
however, one of the two i received had no chance in a cutter, i didnt need to test it. whilst the other was pretty thick and looked like a heavy grade glass etch film, I thought it might have had a chance.

I remember the Vikuiti girl on the Wm. Smiths stand at Sign & Digital, thought that was very clever and gave another possibilty of its use.
Even if folk were not interested in what she had to say, it had everyone including myself stopping to have a look.

.

Hi Rob

Yes to both questions

If you tile the only distraction is how you tile i.e. butt joint or with a window framing system – The butt joint works quite nicely and at large format even multiple panels with a narrow frame sort of disappear from the eye – What is more of an issue is being able to project bright enough and large enough at these mega sizes. In theory it is possible to use multiple projectors and some clever jiggery pokery software to make mega sized screens ….. however this option is by no means cheap

Regarding cutting I would think that any decent plotter will cut the Vikuiti , we use Zund flatbeds but I know many who buy a thick sandblast product from us that is a similar thickness have no issues cutting on a Graphtec or Summa – we have a demo Summa unit here so will arrange an internal test ….. there goes the profits for the month 😉

You can pretty much cut any shape with Vikuiti and then it is down to masks on your imagery so you dont blind anyone looking straight at the image with light bleed

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Vikuiti is a rear projection film from 3M (looks like a thick speckled Black transparent film)

Very easy to install or apply the film as it is self adhesive

In theory you can project on any glass and any situation ….. and within reason as large as you like

It doesn’t need a special lens but depending on the application, ambient light and size you wish to create will determine how powerful the projector needs to be and how bright the projected images will be and as Rob stated earlier the angles where the projector needs to be placed can be critical.

….. and as Jason is inferring its not as cheap as a monomeric printing film

😉

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Chris

Finish looks Matt so if your customer is right and it was 3M then it should be from the 1080 Car Wrap range

3M only have 3 x Matt Silvers/Greys in this range 1080-M261 Matt Dark Grey, 1080-M230 Matt Grey Aluminium and 1080-M21 Matt Silver

Impossible to tell if these match by the photos but if you contact our sales office with your details they can get you a physical swatch out in the post tonight so you can check against the vehicles

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Nigel Pugh:

Stuart one thing I disagree with your information is that on a outdoor vertical sign you don’t need lamination…….if rain only came down vertically I would agree.

Nigel

Hi Nigel

Reading back through my post I should have clarified the reasons I suggested why I didn’t feel it was necessary to laminate on a vertical glass application on a building and refine this to the pros and cons

The point of the whole post was that I was actually trying to get over was that the laminate was an absolute must on a vehicular application …. why ? three reasons (1) if you don’t laminate and it is raining then water will sit in the perforations hindering visibility whilst driving (rear windscreen wipers cannot get into the perforations to remove the excess water) and (2) on a vehicle you will get road spray/dirt/dust that will sit in the perforations which even when dry will reduce visibility and be more difficult to clean out (3) on a vehicular application where there are passengers i.e. public transport it is more likely that the passengers can get motion sickness if they can not see clearly out of the glass (this is also why with some of the manufacturers perforated materials there are a range of size of holes/ratios i.e 30/70, 40/60, 50/50, 60/40 etc – Therefore if you laminate for a vehicular application (with an optically clear product) you will not get these visibility issues.

Regarding a building application there are less issues with visibility problems. Road spray, dirt and dust will be less of an issue or take far longer to build up. Many building applications are under canopy or are more sheltered. Many building applications are short term promotional where this dirt build up will be not be an issue. Also it should be noted with most normal solvent/eco sol/Latex/UV inks they are outdoor durable up to 2 or 3 years without lamination. As long as there is no abrasion then a laminate is not necessary for this amount of time (but will not harm the application either if you require "belt and braces")

I would certainly not hesitate to laminate if the building application was required for a longer period (anything over a year would tick my "belt and braces" box) and also if the application was particularly sensitive to needing to see outside with total clarity (I would also advise different hole sizes/ratios if this was required) or the windows would be difficult to access for cleaning/maintenance in future.

Dirt and Dust are actually more of an issue than rain so therefore if the application is likely to be exposed to dirt/dust then I would always recommend lamination even for a short term application.

Finally, and something I should have added to my original post ….. if in doubt, laminate

Apologies if my original post has caused any confusion

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Warren

It may be a little late but there are a few rules to work to when using Contravision or a generic perforated window film.
Firstly to laminate or not ?? Depends on the application really

Indoors there is no need

Outdoors on vertical glass on a building there is no need unless you require extra UV protection for the ink i.e. up to 5 years

Vehicle application laminate everytime otherwise you will get dirt build up sitting in the holes which will stop visibility from inside the vehicle.

Once you have established if you need an overlaminate then choose the correct type for the job …… Firstly it MUST have an optically clear adhesive *please note most standard UV laminates do NOT have an optically clear adhesive. A good supplier should know the difference and be able to advise on this.
Then choose the type – Most suppliers offer clear polyester as a laminate for perforated graphics, these are usually OK for short term flat applications but will deteriorate quicker than a PVC and as polyester is non flexible it could fail if used on a curved application
We use 3 versions of laminate. Polyester for short term flat applications (non vehicular) Polymeric PVC for medium term applications including vehicles and Cast PVC for longer term applications and for curved glass (such as rear windows of vehicles)

Finally the application, ALWAYS apply dry… otherwise you will trap the water in the perforations which will cause condensation and poor visibility.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Leon

Is this actually Contravision or is it another manufacturers version of the product ? If it is Contravision do you know which laminate has been used ? We carry 3 different versions of laminate to use with the Contravision Performance range – a polyester, a cast and a polymeric version – each of these products would perform differently depending if the product is applied inside or out and if it is applied to flat glass or curved glass (such as the rear window of a cab)

As Dave has stated Contravision should always be applied dry especially if laminated (otherwise you just trap the water in the perforations)

A Sealit pen will not help edge seal a product construction such as this as the Sealit pen doesn’t give a thick enough edge seal, however a physical vinyl seal would help as an additional taped edging overlapping the Contravision and glass by 3 to 5mm ….. Unfortunately I don’t think this will help seal an already failing application as the adhesive will almost certainly be already damaged and water/dirt ingress will have effected the reverse of the laminate if it has lifted.

If you reply regarding the product used, application method and description of glass it was applied to (or add a photo of the faiure) I will see if I can help with a solution.

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi All

Just thought I needed to correct or clarify a couple of misconceptions regarding the RollsRoller.

Regarding size the RR is available in 3 versions , Premium, Basic and Traffic – Premium which has 6 standard sizes ranging from 4m to 10.8m length and 3 standard widths ranging from 1.5m to 2.2m. The Basic model has 5 standard models ranging from 2.8m to 4m in length and widths from 1.45m to 1.7m and a specialist Traffic model available with a channeled top with again a number of different size variants. It can also be manufactured at almost ANY custom size within reason.

Premium and Basic models are all supplied Glass top as standard (which is imperative if you want flatness) with a transparent self healing cutting mat as protection. As standard all glass is in one piece which guarantees a flat surface, however it is actually available as a no cost option to have the glass supplied in multiple pieces if required …. as yet in over 300 units we have supplied in the UK all have been requested with single piece glass. Regarding risk of breakage (a) the transparent cutting mat protects the glass surface from day to day operation and as stated we have installed over 300 units in the last 7 years and only 4 units have ever had the glass broken (at least two instances were down to the operator using the glass bed to put eyelits into the banner with a hammer !! 😮 ….. In all these cases we collected the RR with our own transport, remove the broken glass and replace with new glass, in most cases we actually turn this around in 1 working day plus travel time.

Finally regarding the "bridge" on the RR beam – This is actually there to give stability to the Roller as it is imperative with any laminator that the roller runs parallel, if you have any twist on a roller you will have two major issues – material running off square and potential wrinkling/creasing of the film ….. due to the construction and bridge on the RR this is not an issue.

Hope this clarifies some of the points raised here – If anyone needs any more answers just ask.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi All

As you will know we supply both the HP Latex and 3M products and nearly all 3M films print perfectly on the Latex (along with many other alternative brands)

With regard to warranty 3M operate several layers of product warranty including MCS (Matched Component System) warranties which are only applicable when all components are made by 3M inc base film, laminate and ink. As Latex inks are made by HP this is then covered by 3M’s performance guarantee (tried, tested and approved by 3M)….. so to answer the question 3M do "guarantee" their products when printed using a HP Latex Ink.

Most 3M medias are profiled for use on the Latex printers as well

Hope this clarifies this

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

It looks to me like you have applied top panel first and bottom panels last ??? If this is so your overlaps would be incorrect (if you have overlapped) as if using horizontal joints you should always start at bottom and work up over i.e. overlaps top over bottom rather than vice versa. If you have overlapped bottom over top you will have problems with water ingress from open top seam and also build up of dirt etc.

We would normally recommend using vertical joints on vehicles and overlaps at least 10mm …. again overlap sequence is important due to wind and weathering so always start at rear of vehicle and move forward so overlaps sit correctly layered.

Finally the shrinkage or edge curling looks like it was not outgassed for a sufficient period of time before it was laminated and applied (3M recommend minimum of 24 hours outgassing before applying overlaminate) and remember when outgassing not to leave on roll tghtly wound as the material needs to breathe so it should be sheeted or very loosely wound to allow air to pass between layers.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Peter

The official line out of 3M is that the US use a product called 181 series (same product but more aggressive adhesive) as a lot of US application for stainless included corrugations – This is not very common in Europe and therefore 3M have never used 181 series in the UK. If application is as you say flat or with only gentle curves the 180 should be absolutely fine. As long as certain rules are applied including using 3M Surface Prep to clean down and wipe off residue and secondary cleaning with IPA , apply at correct minimum temperature and use plenty of pressure (as 180 is a Controltac Adhesive) you should have no problems – 3M have never experienced any failures with 180 on stainless as long as these guidelines are adhered to.

If application is more tricky such as more complex curves or corrugation then IJ380 or IJ3650 would be suitable alternatives.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

I’ve just got off the phone after speaking with Rob and he’s given me the ok to invite any uksb members who would like to see this technology first hand along to a couple of open days that we are running at Nottingham.

This is an open house event to give you the opportunity to come along and see the printer in action and then ask as many questions as you would like. The 2 days are Thursday 29th October and Tuesday the 3rd of November, please feel free to either pm me and I will e-mail you back further details or get in touch with our marketing or Gill for details (Wm Smith details are on the toolbar)

I will of course still be happy to continue to answer further questions here.

Would be great to see a few of you down at Nottingham.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Dave Rowland:

yes it is and it’s making outdoor printing easier and more user friendly. I wonder how much one of those carts are as they contain 750g? of ink, + the electric and any counters on the heads/consumables.

What about HP Warranties? its easy to change a head but how about a circuit board failure or a heater?

Hi Dave

The printer comes with a standard 1 year warranty and the heads as a consumable are warranted for a year or .8l ink …. however as the head technology has a proven track record in the Hp Z6100 and the L25500 head is very similar Hp are stating expected lifetime of around 4 litres per head (Hp are normally quite conservative with their estimates) and if this is calculated as a sq m cost it would equate to around 20p per sq m for typical image prints.

The Hp Latex ink cart is 775ml and ink costs are at worst comparable and in most cases less than the cost per litre of an official mild solvent or eco sol cartridge and this is based on including the head into the sq m costings.

Regarding power consumption you are looking at a maximum of 3.5Kw for the 42" model and 4.8Kw for the 60" version This appears high but again comparing to similar width models that require heat, extraction etc the price per sq m is very similar. Taking the worst scenario if you compare the 60" model to a JV5 with an APS the difference will be around 0.5 Kw/hr which would equate to around 2p per hour or 0.2p per sq m @ 8 pass mode or 0.1p per sq in 4 pass mode.

I believe in most cases when comparing ink and running costs of the Latex to a similar 60" solvent or eco sol ink printers the cost per sq m will be around the same or lower. We are happy to go through these figures with individual companies and give group or private printer demos for those who interested in learning more about this technology.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Dave Rowland:

so the Latex printer still has a printbed heater? where it warms the media up?

What thickness can it go to?

Hi Dave

The Hp Latex printers are currently only on roll to roll and roll to floor platforms and not flatbed – The L65500 is a 104" wide printer and the L25500 comes in two widths 60" and 42" – I won’t be surprised to see a flatbed version in the future but no timescale as yet from Hp.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Jason Xuereb:

Cheers Stuart.

Are the high temperatures needed a problem with monomeric calendared vinyls and similar medias that are susceptible to high heat?

I know our Roland’s are in the 50 degree Celsius range but I think the HP is around the 100 mark. Is this also an issue with polypropylene for pull up banners?

Hi Jason

Not seen any problems so far – As you may be aware the L65500 has been available for around 12 months now and this requires similar temperatures as the smaller L25500 – I have seen it print without any issues on cast, polymeric and monomeric PVC films and also various banner materials, tyvek, polyester, poster papers and some non PVC films such as polyolefin. – sometimes requires a little tweaking with profiling but shouldn’t be a problem.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Jason Xuereb:

Cheers Stuart.

I will be seeing this machine on Friday and I am very keen at the moment if I see what I like.

What are the negatives on these machines versus the solvent machines?

Even if you can comment on the wider 2.5m machine.

Hi Jason

With all honesty I am still trying to find the negatives over existing technologies such as solvent or eco-sol but I struggle to find any.

As has already been stated you get a green solution with the water based inks,
no smells,
no extraction,
no expense from filter changes in an APS,
no maintenance or physical costs for an extraction system,
no waste disposal issues,
very low VOCs,
no HAPs,
instant curing,
no outgassing,
immediate lamination,
immediate fitting,
up to 5 year outdoor laminated, 3 years unlaminated
no effects on material adhesives or characteristics,
wider range of materials that are possible to print ………………

I guess the only thing that buyers need to think about is because the technology is water based it uses Thermal rather than Piezo heads and the head is considered a consumable – but to be quite honest even this is not a negative as the cost when converted to a sq metre cost and added to the ink cost is still comparable or less than the equivalent solvent or eco sol cartridge and you do not have any additional risk of expensive piezo head replacement that you have with existing technology.

Only other thing that may be a negative in Oz is due to the higher heat settings used to evaporate the excess water you may find you need to turn your air-con up a notch but in the UK it should be a plus in the Winter …. or even the Summer over here 😀

Look forward to hearing your feedback after Friday

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Jason Xuereb:

Hey Stuart,

How is the quality on really small stuff say 2″ by 1″ labels. What point text can you go to and still have it legible?

Hi Jason

It can handle small text better than my eyesight !!

I have a sample I’m looking at now that is perfectly legible at 4pt lowercase … you might get away with 3pt and I can’t even see 2pt !!!

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Dave Rowland:

that is very interesting Stuart…. isn’t there a flatbed model?

Hi Dave

Not as yet ……. but I guess watch this space

HP are definitely going to roll out this technology on all of their platforms eventually. I think the launch on the L65500 was logical as a wide format (104" wide) printer with production speeds of up to 80 sq m/hr a premium level launch. They’ve now covered the mass market Mimaki/Roland/Mutoh area with the L25500 in 60" and 42" widths which makes it affordable for any digital printer/sign maker.

If I were to guess I would expect either a super-wide 5m and 3m wide options next, but would not be surprised to see a flatbed version at some point …… but no news yet from HP on that so I am just guessing at this.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote John Dorling:

Hi

I have to match a jpb to Avery Kelly green and forest green, but I don’t have an account with an avery stockst.

I have spoken to Robert Horne, but with the delivery charge the vinyl will end up costing £80+VAT! I only want 5m of each at 610mm!

Does anyone have an avery and 3M scotchcal 50 or oracal 651 swatch to see the closest match so I can order from one of my usual suppliers?

Atlernatively, anyone got some of the above avery colours they want to sell?

Thanks

John

Hi John

I assume you’re referring to Avery 700 series

If so 711 Forest Green is close to 3M 50 series 50-78 Dark Green and 734 Kelly Green is close to 3M 50-76 Medium Green

Nether are exact matches but pretty close

If you need a swatch give us a call

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Paul Hodges:

Hi Stuart

Thanks for the details so far.

My first question would be what about the latex water based performance as regards printing on materials that are unlaminated, versus solvent and eco sol max etc?

Laminating your prints is all well and good but what about banner printing etc? Can we expect similar durability to solvent?

Paul

Hi Paul

HP state an unlaminated exterior durability of 3 years and 5 year exterior laminated – This is obviously far better than the older aqueous inks which would have had vitually no exterior durability.

The clever part of Latex inks is that during the curing/drying process the excess water is evaporated and the "latex" is cured and encapsulates the pigments on the vinyl thus creating almost an inbuilt self laminate which protects from UV and light abrasion and the elements. The addition of a physical laminate improves durability and abrasion resistance.

Hope this makes sense

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Thought I better post some clarification on some of the points raised around this technology before it becomes gospel.

As has been already stated Latex Inks are water based, odourless, no HAPs, extremely low VOCs, no extraction or special environment requirements, green environmental solutions with no waste disposal issues.

The L25500 comes in two widths 60" and 42", is front loading and can virtually be pushed up against a wall as only limited access is required to the rear.

Its a 6 Colour printer at 1200Dpi resolution and has 6 x Printheads, each being dual colour heads K/Y, lc/C and lm/M. The heads are classed as a consumable and are Thermal but even HPs conservative estimate is 4 litres (5 cartridges lifetime)

Ink costs for the UK are much lower than the 200 euro cost mentioned and are comparable or lower per sq m than all OEM 440/500ml solvent and eco solvent cartridges I have come across – I would rather not start publishing prices on forums but we are more than happy to discuss prices of inks directly with clients. Even when you factor in the head as a consumable cost it works out comparable or less per sq m than Solvent or Eco Sol OEM Cartridges.

I have spent a full day with the 60" version and it is really impressive- Good Speed, Great Quality and Instant Use !! As Rob has described pros and cons already I keep trying to find the negatives compared to other older technologies but am yet to find a reason to buy solvent over Latex.

Please fire any other questions about this technology at us and will be happy to reply.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote John McNickle:

Stewart

I didnt buy it from you, i have only started speaking with yourselves, i dont want to name the firm as i dont think it is their fault + in Northern Ireland we only have 2 Suppliers, the rolls came boxed and had the plastic space protectors in the ends of the core and 3M bag over them, i got 7 colours from them, black, white, dark blue, light blue, yellow and orange ( which is so translucant it can only go on white panels) and gunmetal, all of them have done the same thru the cutter!!

I wanted to like the vinyl because it is well priced but its making it hard for me to enjoy working with it

I would gladly buy in from England or Scotland all the time but unless ordering in bulk the delivery charges are a real problem 🙁

Hi John

Sounds like you have recieved 1220mm x 50m rolls ?? If so that is how they are shipped from 3M’s warehouse so should perform perfectly well.

Did you use materials straight from the carrier ?? The only time I have seen problems like this (not specifically 30 series) are when rolls come off a carrier’s truck and are still cold (usually Autumn onwards) and been on the vehicle from early hours or overnight and then go into a warm workshop and straight onto cutter/printer – This sometimes shows as rippling on the printer/cutter as the liner is effected by the sudden change in heat/humidity.

If this is the case I would suggest open boxes and remove plastic bags, store vertically and leave in the room environment all day (or overnight if poss) to allow the material to acclimatise to the new environment.

If this does not help get onto your supplier and ask for the product to be checked as we sell thousands of rolls of this product and do not experience the failure you are describing.

Please let me know how you get on

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote John Childs:

Thanks for that info Stuart.

I’d better see if I can find your phone number. 😀

As Rob would say ….. we’re on the toolbar 😀

[Stuart Taylor]

quote John McNickle:

i just want to warn folk about how bad this vinyl is! seeing as it comes from one of the big hitters in the game, i got a few rolls as i do alot of POS signage for a few local guys.. my main gripe is that it hates the plotters, i have a gerber fastrack 650 and a Mutoh sc1400 (same machine only reworked abit) and the vinyl crumples up in both machines, if layed flat for 30 mins it all starts to curl up and tighten

sorry just needed to get that out there because im going bananas here

Hi John

Sorry to hear you are having problems with the 3M 30 series.

Not sure if you you bought from ourselves or another distributor but would like to find out why you are experiencing a problem regardless of where you bought.

If you can let me know the colours involved, width and length of roll and how it was shipped – i.e. in a box, on a core, in a core, in a tube etc and how the product felt when shipped i.e. cold, damp etc etc I will see if I can find any reasons for the difficulty you are experiencing.

The curling you describe is normally due to products being wound too tight or the product has been put under extreme tension.

We would always ship any material on a 3" core and then inside a box so you should not experience the problems you are describing.

If you let me know the detail I will try to help

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote John Childs:

quote huggonlustre:

I’ve spoke to william smith again this morning and it seems that the specification for Road Maintenance heavy vehicles under chapter 8 is for the chevrons to the rear in Class 1 3M Red Reflective and Yellow fluorescent at 150mm wide. covering as much of the rear as possible!
Yellow fluorescent not Bright Yellow as some people think it should be.

So what sort of life do William Smith guarantees for their fluorescent?

The best I can find is two years, which is bugger all use on a three year lease van. 🙁

Hi John

3M warrant the 3480 series Fluorescent for 3 years in Northern Europe inc UK. This is 3M’s premium Fluorescent and is 150 micron thick.

They have another series 7725 Fluorescent which is only 2 year warranty and is 100 micron thick so more conformable but with the lesser warranty.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote George Elsmore:

If they operate on the motorway they need to be class 1 red and fluorescent class 1 yellow if not class 2 red and yellow but they may as well have class one from the offset

Minefield !!!

Just to clarify the reflective classications for Class 1 and Class 2 reversed under the DFT document EN12899-1 (2007) i.e. "Old Class 1" (High Intensity, Honeycombed etc) became Class 2 and "Old Class 2" which was engineering grade (No Prisms or honeycombs) became Class 1.

Chapter 8 which recommends use of reflective/fluorescent markings for vehicles working on the Public Highways refers to the use of retroreflective (Red) materials on the rear of vehicles to Class 2 (NEW) as per EN12899-1 OR Microprismatic. Yellow should be non reflective and fluorescent. Chapter 8 is only a recommendation however the Highways Agency have stated vehicles MUST be marked to Chapter 8 for vehicles working on Highway Agency roads.

Many still use new Class 1 (Engineering Grade) for rear markings but if working on HA roads they will theoretically not be allowed to stop.

We have some gudelines around design and types of reflective on our website (you can find it through the toolbar) and follow the products/materials supply/high vis links

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Graeme Clark:

quote Stuart Taylor:

quote Nic Bessent:

3m do all the different from white carbon to chrome carbon – i have a roll of chrome carbon on order but 3month wait!!!!

Problem with the 3m stuff is unless they have left overs every1 only wants to sell it as a full roll – £2000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Nic

Just got back from holiday and read your post.

To clarify the stocking position on Di-Noc, we stock 50 different patterns (including Carbon, Woodgrain’s, Metallic’s etc) in our warehouse and all of these are available by the metre. In addition to this, these 50 patterns can be ordered in longer rolls (25m or 50m dependent on pattern) and will either be in stock in our warehouse or come from 3M’s European warehouse with a leadtime of approx 5 days. On top of these 50 patterns there are literally 100’s of other patterns which are held in Japan (3M manufacture all Di-Noc in Japan) and should be available on a typical 3 week leadtime – The reason these are only available as full rolls are they are brought into Europe specifically for that one off demand. I am not sure why you are being told 3 months for Chrome Carbon ?? possibly has to be manufactured but should still be quicker than that – what product code no have you been quoted ? Also note that not all Di-Noc products are classed as suitable for “exterior” use (regardless of whether this is a vehicle or a sign)

If you let me know the code no you were looking at I will check into the reason for the long leadtime.

Stuart

Hi Stuart do you do the ME-1435 or the ME-531 by the meter? – Many thanks

Hi Graeme

Unfortunately the two you have requested are not stocked in Europe and are therefore 25m roll availability only.

We can get them but they are manufactured to order in Japan so can only be supplied as full rolls, ME-531 arond 8-10 weeks inc manufacture and shipping, ME-1435 around 5-6 weeks inc manufacture and shipping.

Checking similar patterns in the Dinoc range – ME-531 is fairly unique with no match, however ME-1435 is very similar to ME-904 which we do stock and is available by the metre.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Nic Bessent:

3m do all the different from white carbon to chrome carbon – i have a roll of chrome carbon on order but 3month wait!!!!

Problem with the 3m stuff is unless they have left overs every1 only wants to sell it as a full roll – £2000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Nic

Just got back from holiday and read your post.

To clarify the stocking position on Di-Noc, we stock 50 different patterns (including Carbon, Woodgrain’s, Metallic’s etc) in our warehouse and all of these are available by the metre. In addition to this, these 50 patterns can be ordered in longer rolls (25m or 50m dependent on pattern) and will either be in stock in our warehouse or come from 3M’s European warehouse with a leadtime of approx 5 days. On top of these 50 patterns there are literally 100’s of other patterns which are held in Japan (3M manufacture all Di-Noc in Japan) and should be available on a typical 3 week leadtime – The reason these are only available as full rolls are they are brought into Europe specifically for that one off demand. I am not sure why you are being told 3 months for Chrome Carbon ?? possibly has to be manufactured but should still be quicker than that – what product code no have you been quoted ? Also note that not all Di-Noc products are classed as suitable for "exterior" use (regardless of whether this is a vehicle or a sign)

If you let me know the code no you were looking at I will check into the reason for the long leadtime.

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Ian Muir:

Hi

What are peoples views on cutting and sealing high grade reflectives i.e. diamond grade, glass bead.

My plotters don’t really like cutting it even on full force and going slow + knives last about three seconds!.

What would be a solution, I only need to cut areas 24 x 24 ” approx…

Flat bed plotter with heavy weight and big blade?
CNC machine with blade or narrow router bit?
Laser?

Sealing? – Seal it pen, fine brazing torch, liquid laminate spray???

Cheers

Ian :lol1:

Hi Ian

Most of the specialist convertors will work with a flat bed cutter – we operate Zund plotters.

Regarding the edge sealing there are two main options – Liquid edge seal usually brushed on, 3M produce 3950 edge sealer which will give a pretty good edge seal if applied correctly or an Ultrasonic edge seal which should give a much better solution. We actually have a Ultrasonic head that is attached to the Zund so therefore cuts and edge seals in one motion. This gives the most reliable seal and should be 100%, Liquid seals should give a plus 90% success. Whatever you do do not rely on the Seal-It pens, we have tested these on Diamond grade and it had a zero benefit even after multiple applications. If you do not seal products such as Diamond Grade or Crystal Grade you will experience cell breakdown and potential delamination from the exposed edges as dirt/ water etc can ingress.

There is also the option of laser cutting (we use to do this prior to the Ultrasonics being available) but it only gives around an 80% seal success rate and can discolour the edges as you are burning as you cut and seal, not a major problem on darker colours like Blue, Red and Green but can look nasty on lighter colours like White, Yellow and Fluorescent Yellow/Green.

As Phill says you can always create the artwork file and then just send to a specialist convertor to do the cutting/edge sealing for you.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Dave

Depends what you’re doing with the flexible skin

If you’re decorating with vinyl you should use a specifically designed skin with a top coat to protect from plastisizer migration – We’ve used Seemee IV from Verseidag for years …… never had a problem. Products such as Seemee IV or Panaflex 945 they will normally carry a 8 to 10 year warranty if decorated with a cast film such as 3M 3630 or 100 series or Avery 5500 or 900 series. If you use a polymeric calandered film then warranty will only be good as the film, typically 5 to 7 years. Both Seemee and Panaflex work with standard vinyls … no need for banner films. If the skin does not have top coat designed for vinyl you will experience plastisizer migration, the plastizers will escape from the flex skin and attack the PVC film creating an effect of wrinkling or crazing of the vinyl. Saw this not so long ago on a famous American fried chicken franchise …. looked horrendous …… the flexible skin not the chicken !

You can also print directly through ink jet with these products and you should get up to 5 years but as Mike suggested you may experience some fading as the pigments in the ink won’t last like a good quality self coloured film.

Watch out for some of the Asian imported flexible skins, we’ve tried some and experienced inconsistency in top coats and difficulty with adhesion of film or ink – Also some of these products are more likely to yellow over time as their UV stability may not be as good.

Regarding the tensioning question, again if using a good quality flexible skin look for a weight of at least 680 g/sq m and it must be scrimmed. Most of these products are designed to be held under tension for years.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

Stephen

What size of image/window are you looking to create ?

3M Vikuiti comes in 3 standard roll sizes 1220mm x 2.5m, 5.0m and 10.0m. It is also possible to have Vikuiti cut to size and shapes within the 1220mm width. It is generally not recommended to try and overlap or join Vikuiti as this can cause display issues. Vikuiti is a Black rear projection film with glass beads/lenses embedded in the surface that focus the image onto the glass.

As Andrew has stated there are a number of other factors to be aware of with Vikuiti and other rear projection films including lumin output of projector, throw distance and projection angles/projector positioning. These factors are all interlinked and you will acheive limited or poor results if these rules are not followed. If you are trying to acheive a large format screen/image due to the lumin output required you may find the projector cost outweighs the cost of Vikuiti !!

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Jason Xuereb:

Can I get your opinions on this issue?

http://tiny.cc/e4AqW

Arlon have tested the vinyl and their own tests have concluded there is no problems with the vinyl.

I think its an utter joke to be honest.

Hi Jason

Good demo and comparison between the good and bad product.

Was this the Arlon 6000 or 6000X version ? Surprised at Arlon stating there are no issues with the product – We are a Distributor of 3M and Arlon and the 6000 series is pitching against 3M 180 Controltac, both products classed as "repositionable" and clearly in your video the second sample applied could not be "repositioned" – At this stage of application the bond of adhesive/film should be much stronger than adhesive/vehicle which it isn’t in your second batch. This is what "repositionable" adhesive are designed to do !

Are you dealing direct with Arlon or through a distributor ?

I would definitely go back to your supplier – If this was a problem experienced by one of our clients in the UK I would not let the manufacturer hide from such an obvious adhesive delamination issue which must be in the manufacturing process not the application or conversion process.

Hope you get some more positive reaction soon from your supplier

Stuart