Wraps failing in recesses using both 3M – 1080 & Hexis. Advice please?

[Pane Talev]

In my knowledge 3M 1080 is not for deep recesses.
Go for 3M 480 I’m told.

My ford transit connect roof (one of the biggest recesses on the market) also failed with 3M 1080 (roof only – rest is ok, but having said that, rest is pretty flat)

[David Hammond]

Yes this is just the side quarters and back doors we’ve wrapped, not a full wrap.

Back doors are fine, and one side, so again I think it’s down to installation method. I’d have thought 1080 would handle the transit recess. :awkward:

[Martin Lemiesz]

We are getting similar problems from time to time – I would be interested to know how to overcome this and what materials would be best – we have recently completed hyundai iload and now vinyl starts to lift off the recesses on the sides and we will have to replace these areas to keep the client happy…

[Robert Lambie]

when you take the pictures David. try get them from different angles and close up, please.

[David Hammond]

Here’s a few pics.

Looking at the application guide by from 3m, It was installed that way, but perhaps not enough of a bridge, (3m suggest 100mm) and heating the recess rather than the vinyl on the flat?

Had a look at Hexis, and they advise the same technique, when I see the customers van I’ll have a better idea on that wrap.

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[Danny Miller]

I have been having the same problems with mdx air release. Left a 100mm gap and heated the flat part of the vinyl , as they recommend. I am interested in what others do , as I have recently done a course at avery graphics centre and I was told heating the flat vinyl is wrong and I should heat the recess area. Sorry David if I’m high jacking your post but after reading your comments about the bridge , thought my question would tie into that.

Thanks

[Stuart Taylor]

quote Danny Miller:

I have been having the same problems with mdx air release. Left a 100mm gap and heated the flat part of the vinyl , as they recommend. I am interested in what others do , as I have recently done a course at avery graphics centre and I was told heating the flat vinyl is wrong and I should heat the recess area. Sorry David if I’m high jacking your post but after reading your comments about the bridge , thought my question would tie into that.

Thanks

Different vinyls have different application techniques, especially in and around recess work. Some manufacturers will suggest direct heat to the recess area and stretch straight in – However this puts the highest stress on the film and puts all stretch into the weakest area of bond.

For single step/panel recesses by far the safest and most fool proof method is bridging the film by at least 100mm and then heating the vinyl as far from the recess as possible (check manufacturers heat requirements), then you apply pressure in the recess which has no heat effect and therefore the stretch occurs on the flat area. Once this cools the vinyl in the recess has had no stretch and the area on the flat where heated is stretched – The theory therefore is there should be less chance of fail as the stretched area cannot "pop" off a flat area. Obviously correct cleaning, correct post heat etc is still required to ensure no failure.

Also different vinyls have different post heat requirements so you should check every vinyls application guidelines as even the same vinyl manufacturer may have different guidelines for each type of material in their portfolio and different applications.

Stuart

[Shawn Bentley]

installed this today using 3m480 very good in recesses etc.

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[David Hammond]

The ones I’ve had failing are just colour change wraps.

Can’t print metallic blue, or the bright green.

Looks good though :thumbsup: I’ve the a roll of IJ180 on the rack which we use for single step wraps.

[Jon Marshall]

I think the issues you have there are from using the roller and not getting the vinyl pressed right in to the recess.

[David Hammond]

I used both the thicker roller first, and then went over it with the narrower harder roller, and certainly applied plenty of pressure to it, thinking it would prevent this.

Looking at the 3M application guide, I can only think I didn’t bridge the recess enough, and the stretch in the vinyl is on the recess rather than the flat area, and perhaps not post heated throughly enough?

[ChrisBolt]

If the bridging was an issue I would have thought it would have blistered/pulled away more frequently along the recess than it appears to have done in the pictures.

I would guess these are areas you may have missed when post heating, I was taught to apply the heat directly to the recess and work along in small sections at a time. Removing the heat gun when reading the temperature, and reading the temperature along the whole section you have post heated, not just one area of the section.

If you’re doubting whether or not you post heated thoroughly enough, then I would say chances are you probably haven’t.

We use Avery and haven’t used the 3M product line so can’t comment on the material.

Hope you manage to resolve it mate.

[Scott Blay]

1080 isn’t for deep reassessed areas but if fitted correctly and reheated to the correct temp then it shouldn’t fail

[David Hammond]

I’d have not thought a Transit Custom or partner recess would be too deep for 1080? It’s not like the old sprinter U recesses?

[Cheryl Smith]

David
I think you have answered the possible problems, what I will add however is that the panel temperature AND the material should be the same ambient temperature of around 21 degrees before you start, so when you heat the workshop you have both elements heating at the ambient air temp of around 21 degrees…wearing your tee shirt sort of temperature. You don’t want cold material and cold panel then have to heat it up in the stretch even with post heat. I believe there is a new material coming out which doesn’t need those requirements, but its not here yet.
Cheryl

[David Hammond]

Thanks Cheryl.

We installed in the unit, and had the space heater running throughout, I’ve learnt the hard way how brittle cold vinyl becomes.

Definitely installation error I think. We managed the whole installation in day, it was a bit of a rush job.

We’ll take our time doing the sides again, focusing on Post Heating & Heating the vinyl on the flat part, and rolling the vinyl into the recess cooler to minimise stretch.

[Cheryl Smith]

yes David, definitely easy to skim over post heating…it is a painstaking boring but oh-so essential part of the process, and when it looks good straight after install, its easy to imagine its going to stay that way…
In one particular training I went on…I was really uncomfortable at the heat that was being applied at post heat…its natural to want to pull away when you ‘think’ its hot enough…but more often than not its not without a temp gauge reading at every centimetre both sides and centre of the recess, it can be overlooked.
Cheryl

[Brian Bollard]

As far as I know the only vinyls that will stay in deep recesses are 3M 480CV3 and Avery 1105.
We use 1105, heat away from the recess and never have issues.

[David Hammond]

I wouldn’t class either the Peugeot Partner or Transit Custom as deep recesses. Perhaps I’m wrong.

I always assumed deep recesses to be like the old sprinters that were 20mm+ Deep ‘U’ Recesses.

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[Robert Lambie]

There is multiple reasons a recess will fail, so it is really guess work we are doing here.

Purely from the picture, it shows the vinyl is beginning to pull back. So there is clearly tension on the film.
What will help prevent pull back is if you have post heated it properly and if you have cleaned the recess properly.
You can tick every box of the process, but having something as simple as wax in the recess and your beat!
No matter what cleaner you use, if you do not clean thoroughly enough in the recess where tension is at its worst, you will end up with pull-back spots like you have shown. It is always best to use something like a genuine microfiber cloth (there are fakes) or similar type cleaning sponge that has a very soft sort of abrasion that help remove stubborn wax that can settle and build up in the recess. this wax is smooth and optically clear so may look spotless but its not.

I am not saying the above is the reason, just that its one that is often glazed over but really should be done thorough.

Any media that has air channels in the adhesive is more prone to fail that those without. So again you must spend more time making sure you limit the possibility of a fail. for an "L" shape recess it is always best to reduce tension by bridging the recess a minimum of 100mm and heating/applying as others have stated above.

Post heating is a slow tedious process, but must be done 100%. Check your media sources spec on required post heat temp. its another process that you must follow regimentally. I know its a pain and slow… but being 100% and spending an extra 10+ minutes getting it right, then you would not be questioning yourself now. we have all done it, myself included a number of times over the years.

Pressure wheels are required when using 3M media, but I use them regardless to the vinyl brand i use as it helps promote adhesion when coupled with heat.

These are the obvious suggestions, keep in mind the vehicle temp your applying the vinyl too. the room you applied it in, did you take the van outside right after installing into the cold and so on…. all adding to the possibility of a fail. As I said, lost of reason for a recess fail. make your check list and tick them off as you go along. its worth it long term.

[Simon Worrall]

I agree with Rob 100%
I would go with there being wax in there.
We sometimes use fine abrasive rubbing down compound for these types of places, if there is even the slightest hint of wax.
Simon