-
APA’s 10 cast wrapping film? AP/790-FT
So anyone ever used this material before? with matching lam?
having some problems with it mainly lifting, 🙁
vehicles were brand new washed and degreased using avery cleaner the vans were placed in a spray both for 5 hours at a temp of 18 degrees before i wrapped them, vinyl was postheated to 50 and set at 100 after conforming i even used a laser thermometer and still they lift,
Anyone had this problem before? could a temperature change be an issue after removing the vans from the booth/
anyhelp would be appreciated
-
41 Replies
-
how long did the prints out gas before laminating?
is it lifting in lots of places or just a few?
how severe are the areas its lifting in?
does the vinyl have an easy apply adhesive system?
did you fit dry?
-
thanks for replying so quick Robert,
Most gassed off for 2 days the others 3 or more,
its lifting in all areas apart from the odd 1′-3′ patch
the lifting in the deep recesses have returned to the original shape before i pushed them in with the exception of another 3′ patch,
Yes the vinyl has an easy apply system and i did fit dry,
im really shocked at the results most lifted in 1 week and all the vans (8 of them) have failed
-
feel for you what does apa say.
might be interesting to find out if the glue is still on the vinyl or left on the paint. where its lifted. -
without seeing it mate, its really difficult to comment fairly.
however, easy-apply type vinyls are not warranted and shouldnt be used in recessed areas.
i think the only two with this type of air release system that are warranted for recessed work are 3M – 1080 series & Avery Supreme.
it is imperative to use a laser temp gauge and cure the vinyl at the recommended temp specified by the manufacturer. many vinyls differ…
its also very easy to under heat or actually miss sections when curing the vinyl. -
apa are saying its a fitting error! due to incapable fitters,
and yes in some areas the glue has left the vinyl and in regards to what you said Robert apa never told me that the airflow should not be used in deep recesses, hhhm do you think its down to apa?
-
pics attached
Attachments:
-
quote :THE NEW PRINT MEDIA WITH HIGH CONFORMABILITY
AP/790-FT an absolute must for those who vehicle wrap, key charactoristics are:
– conformability on curved survaces
– perfect cover with a white fi lm of just 55 microns
– excellent print fi nish with Solvent, Eco-Solvent and UV ink
– Easy bubble free application due to the Air Free FTX – system
– Long external durability
– Very competitive price
L/791: is the new ultra transparent laminate film specifi cally designed for AP/790-FT.taken from there web site can’t find data sheet yet
-
You can fit air release vinyls on recesses but you need to use the specific fitting method to minimise the stretch.
It could also be over tension on the laminate.
Other than that the vinyl may simply not be good enough.
-
Jon it depends on how sever / deep the recess is mate.
the one shown in the picture Adam has posted looks like the new shape sprinter van, i would say definite no on that.all the air release systems by various brands really only followed suit of the big companies like 3M , Avery etc… who knows, maybe even just licencing their patented system from them…
however, even 3M & Avery got it wrong a few years back and have now launched new more sophisticated adhesive systems to deal with this problem and more. this would never have happened if the original air escape adhesive had had been adequate enough for the job.
only time will tell on a large scale if these new systems by them really do tick all the boxes.anyway, i do not doubt your word that you have had successful wraps using air release adhesive systems jon. but i just wouldnt tempt fate mate or advise anyone to try it.
-
i also have had the same problem with this material where the vinyl had lifted from a small indentation after speaking to apa they told me that i could of not post heated it correctly to 100 degrees .so after replacing it and heating it to the correct 100 degrees it still lifted ended up stripping it all off and re do with avery mpi 1900 and has been fine the only vinyl i now use from apa is their truck vinyl as i think it is the best on the market
-
Air release vinyl, mmmm. I have done many wraps with it. Many brands. Actually, any vinyl that suffers a sever temperature change after install before optimum glue adhesion is a failure waiting to happen in my opinion. For example, air release vinyl, winter here, fellow installer does his jobs inside, all fail and lift in recesses. I did 1, failed. Then chose to do them outside in the winter sun, kept indoors for 48 hrs after, none failed after that. Even repaired the failures with a constant temp. On contact, air release vinyls have 50% less adhesion than full contact glues on installation. On one run Australia wide, of 24 van wraps, 8 failed. All were done when it rained, left workshop into the rain. NEVER again will I let that happen again, if a client wants a vehicle released into the rain or cold too soon, they sign a warranty waiver form or they dont get it.
-
No experience but recently attended James Deacon’s wrapping course and he specified many times over NOT to use any type of air release vinyls in those Sprinter type double recesses.
Then even with full bond wrap vinyl the recess had to be pushed in in a way to avoid stretching the vinyl in the corners where it is most likely to lift. His explanations were an eye opener as to how to avoid lifting in recesses and made me realise there is so much more to this than just warming the vinyl and pushing it in to look smooth.
Two methods may look indentical immediately after but one will fail.
I picked up so much on the course that I now use on a daily basis on general sign work even though I haven’t had a chance to do a wrap yet. -
Wrap courses for most usually teach handling of vinyl, teach how much more you can get away with. What can be saved and wastage is reduced.
-
thanks all for your replies, i guess i should have specified to apa the type the vehicle i was wrapping ( which is the new shape Movano LWB HR ) but i just still cant believe the vinyl failed on the smaller recess’s at the back of the vehicle which are no more than 15mm into the panel!
Maybe apa should have told me the airflow is not the best material for deep recess’s,
my recommendations is do not use apa’s super cast vinyls for any major wraps the odd bonnet here an there but a bumper no way!
bit off topic but any sign shows coming up soon is there one in Coventry next to the Casino?
-
Sign + Digital UK, Birmingham NEC
-
Not sure how deep the recesses are on that Renault but we’ve used IJ180 on several transits and Vivaros recently and had no problems.
-
Just like to update everyone with the situation,
APA would like to send James Deacon to fit the graphics on one of these vans, however im a bit concerned with what Stuart said regarding James Deacon saying never to use air release vinyl on a double recess as APA clearly stated to me that James Deacon has said to them it can be done with there vinyl.
hhhm
-
JUST ANOTHER UPDATE AS I DON’T WANT THE SAME THING TO HAPPEN TO OTHER PEOPLE OR COMPANIES
SO ITS BEEN A WEEK NOW AND NO CONTACT FROM APA WHICH I FIND DISGUSTING IT SEEMS THERE HAPPY TO BULLS**T YOU WHEN IT SUITS THEM BUT THEN PLAIN IGNORE YOU WHEN YOU NEED HELP AND ADVICE.
IF YOUR LOOKING FOR COLOURED OR PRINTABLE VINYL STICK WITH AVERY OR A PROPER COMPANY AS APA ARE A JOKE
SCOTT I HOPE YOUR READING THIS AS THE GROUP DIRECTORS WILL BE TAKING APA TO COURT.
-
DO NOT BELIEVE A NEW SALES PERSON, EVER, unless they show you them selves. GIVE you meat on them. GIVE you website, oh NO, gone. Give you phone contacts to head office, NO? then its NOOO. A REAL sales person will GIVE you what you need. Will give you enough material to swap to their product for 1 job. They WILL not promise 50% discount on product if their product works. I SAY LOOK at the warranties, WHO honours them. Its very hard to get a warranty. Always an excuse. Adam, be careful when u take people to court for 1 or 2 weeks no reply, is not enough. Seen shitt vinyl stick and good fail. People will go quiet on public, give u all in private, DO NOT in any circumstances do this in public, or you get people like me getting on his side. Unfortunately I will answer honestly, my loss or yours. DOES NOT MATTER.
What I really think, We all Fuk up, we are NOTHING ALONE
-
THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY MARK
I SEE WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I AM CONFUSED AS APA SALES DIRECTOR SUGGESTED THE VINYL TO USE AFTER IT FAILING THEY CONTACTED JAMES DEACON HE SAID THE VINYL WILL WRAP IN THESE DOUBLE RECESS’S HOWEVER AFTER SPEAKING WITH HIM DIRECT HE SAID TO ME UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD AN AIR FREE VINYL BE USED ON THESE RECESS’S, I IN-TURN SAID THIS TO APA AND NO RESPONSE,
IV USED APA COLOURED WRAP VINYL FOR YEARS NOW AND WRAP MANY INTERIOR TRIMS IN MY PERSONAL VAN AND STILL LOOKING GREAT AND NONE LIFTED SO I BELIEVE THAT THIS VINYL IS NO GOOD FOR DOUBLE RECESS’S THE TRICK IS GETTING APA TO ADMIT IT
THANKS AGAIN
-
nope none of it out of 8 vans and 100m used all failed in the recess’s,
it was fitted in the way apa shows you in there training course and still no adhesion, i used apa’s cleaner they told me to use and even made sure i used a digital laser thermometer so i got the postheating perfect, the vans were fitted in a spray booth with constant 18.5 degree fitting temperature and still cannot explain it.
-
OK, I am an Avery PRO man, as they seem to Honor warranties.They say no 1005 EZ for Van wraps. No warranty. YET, they give 1 if if you are accredited. peiple cut corners, most do. They cantallow for that. A good installer WILL NOT suggest a borderline product, that a giood installer will have successs on. NEVER, but he will to some one who takes a hearing ear.I have been blessed with rolls of TRIAL vinyl. New product I get it, well only Avery, so twas all I know lately. ALL I Know, is when I did hold 4 diff brand training courses a year, all had good products, all held their own , THE product sheet said it all, the parameters. NONE of them lied, ONLY the sales men did. RIGHT PRODUCT FOR RIGHT JOB, thats all thats it. Every single supplier supplies a product BEST in FIELD.
Adam, suggestion, if u say u feel u did most right, u feel that suppliers product is 99% crap, 1% crap u, u WILL get an answer, most installers blame products, just gotta show u not average, address yr own skills. If u do that, you WILL get NOTICED,
-
i do feel like i was lied to by there sales director as the print material acted nothing like there wrap vinyl does and i feel i have been mugged of me and my client, i have bought application tape from apa before and after using it and it was coming of in strips they said that they have had problems with the silicone in the application tape which makes me wonder if this could be a faulty batch too?
-
been ripped off, used and abused. Do not feel special. Sorry I have been grumpy, just today lost account for 4th time lol, hacked.
All that matters is open talk, doesnt work? what went wrong, installer is 90% to me -
I don’t agree with resolving issues in this way, but as I seem to be quoted, I would like to clarify (not fully as it would involve the next 10 pages!)
I do openly discuss the use of certain films on courses such as airflow etc but as part of a larger discussion about testing your films.
If you go to a DIY store they will sell you many different types of wood. If your balsa wood staircase falls apart is it the stores fault?
Basically anyone dealing with vinyl should find the limitations of the film before it is used.
Did you offer the customer a cast film option did you explain the difference of choosing a less expensive film?
Did you offer to patch an area eg the only deep areas as they chose less expensive option
If failure was in an area of heavy ink did you make sure profile was ok?
You can’t expect sales people to know all deep areas on every commercial vehicle etc any they will typically state small indents etc
Most manufacturers offer approved training you can’t say that about many DIY stores,
Hopefully I will get to go over this all in more detail so you get to hear the ‘whole’ issue -
EXACTLY James.
-
PS. New Lap top, no crappy keys, no freezing, I am back lol.
-
well i was never told that i would need to test the film as the sales reps were so confident that there vinyl could do the job,
as for the balsa wood comment well thats just silly, if a company states on there website and in person that its a fully conformative cast wrap and it can do the recesses i was working on how am i supposed to know any different than what the data sheet states.
as for sales people knowing every recess on a vehicle i thought this too hence why i took a photograph of the vehicle down there just to make sure, because at the end of the day its the rep who should know these things about there product.
apa will be meeting this week hopefully with the directors,
Thanks to there quick response in sorting this problem out i lost 22 vans to do
thanks scott
-
We’ve just wrapped a bentley in the triple laminate Pearl white and what a nightmare this turned out to be, literally the day after the customer collected the car the vinyl was lifting in places.
I’ve wrapped around 8 Bentley GT’s now and I must admit this was the first and only one in APA’s vinyl, did a A4 cab in APA’s matt white vinyl two weeks prior and that lifting too….We have two of our own company cars wrapped in 3M material, been wrapped for 4 years now, hardly ever washed and no failures what so ever…..
Sent APA a load of photos and got nothing back from them….I’m rather annoyed
Had Scott giving it large and talking crap like he normally does….I’m very annoyed and concerned.
-
Had a sample of their pearl orange which is so thick I wouldn’t trust it on anything other than very simple curves.
-
I’m having exactly the same problem with this vinyl at the minute – on a new Transit so the drops are only about 8mm, yet it’s coming up! never had a problem with any other material except this one and it’s already trhe second time i’m on this van as the first lot of APA vinyl (the one they recommended as crevices aren’t 15mm or deeper) failed on me too.
Bubble-free or not, an 8mm drop shouldn’t be a problem for a polymeric cast
-
James,
I disagree with you there mate. A good rep will know what they are talking about when it comes to vehicles, that’s their job. The rep I speak to and the matts I use advises very well and spends time on the phone to ensure they know i’ve taken on board every word they’ve said. If they do not know they should not be selling a box of materials with such a high value knowing full well this may not work then ignore the man when the job goes bang. He’s now a laughing stock and his reputation is on the line. If they don’t know what they are selling then let another one of there better trained staff sell it who does and save there clients embarrassment later. -
quote Dean Jewkes:Bubble-free or not, an 8mm drop shouldn’t be a problem for a polymeric cast
I agree it should cope with the recess, but how that recess was negotiated when fitting will significantly determine if it will fail or not. its not just the media that can be at blame. through in a bubble free adhesive and your adding to the chances of failure.
cast fitted wrong is one thing, cast fitted wrong with less adhesive on the back is another. that is the downside to many air channel adhesive systems and is why it shouldnt be used on concave recesses.
Only 3M & Avery will warrant recessed work with their air escape adhesive wrapping films. -
I see what you are saying Robert, but an 8mm single recess on the back door on a Transit shouldnt need 150mm – 100mm worth of working in from the inside like a deeper recess (such as a Sprinter) even though I’ve given it 150mm worth of working in and it is still coming up!
I’ve done countless wraps and use APA’s single colour for every one of them – even the carbon fibre wrap is good by them (I fully wrapped a Mercedes S-Class in the stuff, no accounting for taste) yet this is the first time i’ve used their printable wrap – I usually use Avery or Mactac and have never had a problem.
-
Just checked the APA website and the AP/790-FT is actually a 55 micron "calendered" product … it is NOT cast film.
I would be dubious about fitting even simple single step shallow recesses with a calendered product, let alone one with air channels. Their website does state as follows –
"Ultra permanent highly conformable film to completely cover flat and curved surfaces. Glue with small air-channels "Air free FTX System". Thickness 55 µm"I think this could be the main reason the product is failing, calendered products are not designed for recessed areas and stretching in deep channels.
I think I would agree with most that this application should only be attempted using a specialist cast film without air channels that is designed for channel recess applications.
-
I have been mis-sold this product if that is the case, I was told this is a full cast product which will suit indents of over 15mm – if it is calendered then as you say, it’s not suitable.
I have been speaking to APA today who are asking me to send some vinyl to them to try fitting it to see if they have the same difficulties with it, got to work this morning and even more of the recess is coming up, despite me leaving the air-con heating up. I’m at my wits end, I’m down by 6 days labour, 30m worth of 1500mm ink coverage and to top it up, the customer I’m doing the job for is Mr UK bodybuilder (top bloke though) and I have the potential to lose A LOT of work because of this, now I can understand APA not wanting to blame their vinyl, but I’ve done colour-changes on Transits using their single-colour range and had no problems, go as far as to say its the best I’ve used
-
Hi folks
We have had similar issues with apa air release wrapping material, lifting issues, i know this post was a fair while back so wondering did anyone get to the bottom of this problemScott, a nightmare i’m sure , what was the outcome, did you have any luck with them?
We are at the moment sending material back for them to test!!!
Cheers
Ade
-
Hi All, I know this is very belated but I can confirm the APA issue. The problem in reality is a combination of catalogue text and gung-ho rep’s and us as installers taking a sales reps claims when we all know that complex wrap surfaces need CAST!. The simple fact I’ve found is that the AP990 is the only cast wrap print product that is close to working. The sales guys originally mis sold me a cheaper product guided by the catalogue text saying ‘completely cover flat and very curved surfaces’, the same text used on the more expensive cast product. The sales rep’s all claiming the 790 and its predecessor work just as well as the AP990 encouraged me into the same situation as the people here claiming lifting issues.
It’s unfair that there isn’t any comeback on the claims of the sales staff at APA, but there is also a case that users should be aware of the realities and differences between polymeric, cast and air out products.
thanks -
How do they manage to make a 55 micron calendered film?
-
I think it wrong to name and shame people on this forum without giving them chance to defend themselves. I have spoken to said salesman from APA and asked him for his side to the story. To cut a long story short APA still (Im told) supply to the first company mentioned and the situation was sorted.
Im posting this not in APAs defence or to defend the salesman but I have been in a similar situation where I was unable to defend myself on a social forum and frustration can cause wounds/words to fester.
End of rant 🙂 -
I had one of the APA directors in recently, trying to get me to switch product lines. I did explain my connections with this site, so let me point out that the site is "created by sign makers for sign makers" and at times we need to back each other up with issues so we don’t run into financial loss ourselves when failure of products. It is not just Vinyls (although i got stung by Image Perfect advertising claims!), it is Glues that don’t stick (or miss-marketed), LED lights that wont light a sign up, Economy Banner materials that break after 3 years… the purpose of the site is to pass "knowledge" and experience on to other sign makers and for the sake of suppliers.
You have to carefully word your replies, in this case you a replying to the original poster so you can answer his questions without major modification.
Log in to reply.
