can anyone advise with vinyl peeling from van?

[Robert Lambie]

could be a few things…. to get a better idea of how it was fitted etc

how long did you leave the prints to dry once printed?
how long did you leave to dry before laminating (if its laminated)
did you fit it wet or dry?

[David Rogers]

Butt joined or overlapped?

looks like butt join which is not a way I’d recommend for anything external as it will creep open.

The peeling – as rob says – possibility of the inks affecting the adhesives if not fully dry.

Dave

[Jon Marshall]

Just looks like you didn’t do enough of an overlap for the join.

[Robert Lambie]

the thing is, the main problem here appears to be that the vinyl is curling back. this can be a result of the vinyl being applied to soon after printing or laminated premature to out gassing.
however, if it has been wet applied in the cold. adhesion is never going to get where it should in these temperature’s. so when any sort of shrinkage occurs. it will make it curl back.
OR…
whilst adhesion hasn’t cured properly due to wet application or simply the cold.
dirty rain water has sat on the ridge of the vinyl and progressively aided the creeping back of the vinyl.

you want get that to stick back down because the vinyl has shrunk some and now dirty. you could try washing it with water and your finger tips. dry with heat gun and once stuck down. apply a strip of overlapping clear vinyl to keep it in place.
ide imagine due to shrinkage you will still see a line of white and the adhesion will look loose. and the finish patched. if they are complaining ide re-print the bottom part and reapply. the trouble is, you might get differences in the tile colour match…. can of warms spring to mind!

best of luck,

[Peter Normington]

I presume the substrate is stainless steel, was it totally dry before application? it can by its nature attract condensation, and what grade of vinyl did you use.
Some vinyls do shrink more than others, and a 3-10mm overlap is advisable.
Peter

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I think someone may have pressure washed the vehicle.
I don’t do wraps and I hardly ever apply panels with overlaps.
But when I do I make sure the lower piece is the one that gets the next piece over top, do you know what I mean?
Love….Jill

[Stuart Taylor]

It looks to me like you have applied top panel first and bottom panels last ??? If this is so your overlaps would be incorrect (if you have overlapped) as if using horizontal joints you should always start at bottom and work up over i.e. overlaps top over bottom rather than vice versa. If you have overlapped bottom over top you will have problems with water ingress from open top seam and also build up of dirt etc.

We would normally recommend using vertical joints on vehicles and overlaps at least 10mm …. again overlap sequence is important due to wind and weathering so always start at rear of vehicle and move forward so overlaps sit correctly layered.

Finally the shrinkage or edge curling looks like it was not outgassed for a sufficient period of time before it was laminated and applied (3M recommend minimum of 24 hours outgassing before applying overlaminate) and remember when outgassing not to leave on roll tghtly wound as the material needs to breathe so it should be sheeted or very loosely wound to allow air to pass between layers.

Hope this helps

Stuart

[Phillip Patterson]

Hi guys,

Sorry for the late reply and thanx for all your help and feedback.

I did allow 24hrs for the degassing, wet applied and left 1 cm for the overlap but i think as Jill and Stuart have said I applied the top layer first and the bottom strip on top. so the bottom strips top edge is exposed. realising now that this is a big mistake as water can settle and get through the layer of vinyl causing it to peel. had i kept the strip below this would not have happend. may be i can clean and heat the strip like rob has mentioned and restick it. after that just apply liquid laminate over to seal the edge. if heating and it still doesnt stick would a little bit of strong correx double sided tape do the trick or is that a no go and a very rouge traderish thing to do??? or is there a special glue which i can use??

🙄

[RayRosher]

quote Peter Normington:

I presume the substrate is stainless steel, was it totally dry before application? it can by its nature attract condensation, and what grade of vinyl did you use.
Some vinyls do shrink more than others, and a 3-10mm overlap is advisable.
Peter

Peter
if the van is a snack bar then the substrate is usually made of Glassanite much like most of the container trailers on the road today if not then it’s probably aluminum.

[Robert Lambie]

quote Robert Lambie:

if it has been wet applied in the cold. adhesion is never going to get where it should in these temperature’s. so when any sort of shrinkage occurs. it will make it curl back.
OR…
whilst adhesion hasn’t cured properly due to wet application or simply the cold.
dirty rain water has sat on the ridge of the vinyl and progressively aided the creeping back of the vinyl.

you want get that to stick back down because the vinyl has shrunk some and now dirty. you could try washing it with water and your finger tips. dry with heat gun and once stuck down. apply a strip of overlapping clear vinyl to keep it in place.
ide imagine due to shrinkage you will still see a line of white and the adhesion will look loose. and the finish patched.

"a liquid laminate wont hold it down after you have re-stuck."
that’s IF it can be re-stuck at all. the length or time it has lay and the amount of dirt on the adhesive will determine that.
an actual patch of clear vinyl wont hold the vinyl down either, it will simply SEAL the join from opening, but as i said, will still look patched with the adhesion looking loose.

the sequence to your tile application has played a part in this fail, but the real reason is down to the "wet application" coupled by the cold weather.

.

[Phillip Patterson]

what if i glue it?? I know its unorthodox but will it work??

[George Zerbino]

Maybe reprint the bottom strip and apply dry?

Bit harder, but maybe even peel up a section of the top strip, apply the bottom strip, and ease the top section back over the bottom one (bit of a bodge job may I add!)

Or the best thing would be to redo the whole job and class it as a learning curve.

[Lee Attewell]

Quick fix and it might cause some screaming here… 3M spray glue to the back of the vinyl then a strip of over laminate to protect the edge.

I know it’s bodgy…But it’s a fix 😉

[Martin Pearson]

Like George has said your best bet would be to do the whole job again and put it down as a learning experience.
Any sort of repair job isn’t going to be 100% so if you care about your reputation at all the best thing is to redo it.

Did I see an add for vehicle graphics in the bottom right hand corner? If you have put your own advertising on it don’t you want it to be 100%.

[Bob Clarkson]

My "affects of printing knowledge" isn’t good, as I don’t print myself so the stuff will have been done a fair while by the time I get it.

From a vinyl use point of view, yes you may get a gap from vinyl shrinkage, basically the cheaper the vinyl the greater the shrink. It isn’t too scientific, but it does seem to equate to that. Either way, it shouldn’t curl like that unless it’s been done a god ten years or basically Fablon.

obviously from a dirt and appearance point of view the ideal overlap would be achieved by starting at the bottom, but you shouldn’t expect this if you don’t. What about all the jobs that don’t go to the top.

I apply virtually everything wet, in a whole range of temperatures, so I reckon we can rule that out. I even had one ice over the night after the day I’d written it and that was perfect for the 4yrs he kept it before I wrote his next one.

I’d be inclined to think it wasn’t stuck down nice to start with, not an accusation, just a possibility. Also is there a chance it could have got a bit stretched if applied dry.

It’s not something I’ve had happen, but it is becoming more and more common on vehicles in general. I just assumed it was very cheap materials, clearly there’s more to it.

[Peter Normington]

combination of factors
Wet application. cheap vinyl and stainless steel.
I dont buy into the top over bottom arguement, should nor matter in the slightest if applied properly.
done hundreds of apps bottom over top, sometimes you have to, you need to apply from the top down with large panels of cut vinyl on 4m trailers.

Peter

[Matty Goodwin]

Have to agree with Peter. If applied properly shouldn’t really make a difference.

After all, applied cut letters have an edge exposed to rain etc..

I just think a combination of wet applied (NO,NO) and maybe wrong fitting conditions are to blame.

Matt

[Bob Clarkson]

I agree with that, whichever way round you chose to do what, certainly shouldn’t cause this to happen.

If I were doing that job, I would have applied it wet, but I wouldn’t for a second expect any problems from doing it that way.

I guess you’d have to start looking at different factors dependent on the amount of this stuff you’ve done. Meaning if you’ve done loads the same way and it’s always been fine, look to see if vinyl is a different make, or indeed faulty.

I must admit I’ve only ever had one roll of faulty vinyl, fortunately it was so faulty it didn’t get further than the plotter. It was a roll of 3M black and it had virtually no adhesive on the back, fading out to absolutely none on the edges. They changed it, no quibble, but I think it’d be difficult to prove if it’d been used.

Just read the last post, I can’t accept the wet application being the problem, I’ve been doing it over 25yrs.

[Peter Normington]

Bob,
Have you applied cheap digiprint wet on stainless though?
All things being equal, if this job had been applied dry it would have stood a better chance of surviving
Just my opinion,

Peter

[Bob Clarkson]

I wouldn’t imagine the whole side of that would be stainless, the cost would far outweigh the practicality, but as a direct answer, no. So yes, if something were cheap vinyl applied badly, dry would give the best odds, it’d be bubbles against curling though

I’ve stuck some nasty customer supplied stuff, which you need to give a look over an hour or so after it’s done to make sure it’s all ok.

I don’t tend to use the real cheap stuff, as I don’t want jobs back if they go wrong. But I can’t use the best, as my competition doesn’t use decent stuff. I use the best priced stuff I can guarantee getting a good job with no hassle from. I’ve found Ultramark to suit me in most applications, followed by Avery, but I can’t work that as fast..

These are in general comments, not aimed at the original poster, as I have no intention to offend or assume anything other than you’ve done a proper job. In fairness, it does look well if you exclude this problem.

[Robert Lambie]

No disrespect meant, but it is fact that although wet or dry application is completely acceptable and both work well. Dry application is the superior method between the two for many reasons.

forget my views and opinions for a sec…

how many vinyl suppliers guarantee/warrant their product fitted wet?
i would stick my neck out and say, none!

how many vinyl suppliers have specify a minimum temperature for fitting vinyl?
again, i would stick my neck out and say, Them all!

put both these factors into the same application and add a slight falter of an upside down tile and a can of worms "might" open up.

have a look at the following mock-up….

if fitted wet. the installer has fitted the top section in place. in doing so he must make sure he has expelled all the water beneath the vinyl as best he can. this is done by forcing the water out from the centre to the edges of the vinyl. even when totally done, water/moisture does still exist under the vinyl.

now faced with a second over lapping panel. one full side of the panel is now restricted in expelling that water. no matter how good you are, a certain amount of water/moisture will be trapped and only time can allow that to dry out.

dependent on fitting temperature and time of year, that moisture can be trapped for weeks if not months. over night, if temperature’s drop below freezing. that moisture/water will freeze and expand.

because the vinyl was fitted in cold wet conditions. the actual tack will not be anywhere close to where it needs to be. so the expansion of the ice can prize the limited adhesion apart.

see diagram…
as we know the tile had an upside down join/overlap. fitted dry, my personal view is that this is acceptable. [not best/perfect, but will successfully do the job]
however, fitted as it is, the adhesion isnt great, trapped moisture, cold temperatures and the vinyls initial curl all come into play at the same time. there for morning dew running down the vehicle body rests on the overlap, as does dirt and grime. over a short period of days/weeks. i would expect the results to look like the pictures you have posted of your problem.

for the record… this on any sort of surface. but yes i agree. stainless is particularly bad.

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Attachments:

[Bob Clarkson]

I don’t wish to sound pedantic, but he said he’d done it a few months back! that’d put us back in fairly decent weather.

Fully agree with min/max fitting temps stated by manufacturers, as much as we probably all break them through the winter doing site work. But 3m and Spandex fitting courses in the 80s all focused on wet application, I can’t argue the fact that no longer seems to be the norm, but as I said before, after 25yrs I’m a bit stuck in my ways to change now.

Admittedly what you’ve written is perfectly plausible, but I’d want to be a bit more convinced before doing the whole job again. Learning by mistakes is all well and good, but you still have to know 100% what the mistake was.

[Peter Normington]

quote Bob Clarkson:

I wouldn’t imagine the whole side of that would be stainless, the cost would far outweigh the practicality,

Bob, I have done many of this type of vehicle andthe whole body is in stainless steel,

http://cateringtrucks.co.uk/our-fleet

Anyway, I doubt without chemical analysis of the material, any one would know for sure what the fault was, If this is a one off for the Phillip and he has had no other similar failures with print than the most plausible answer must be unique to that job.
So best and only solution, in my mind is to do the job again. Make sure the print is done properly, including ink levels and drying, also leave after lamination for 24 hours, The surface needs to be prepped properly and apply dry, problem sorted, customer happy, and would hardly cost more that a few quid and a bit of labour to rectify

Peter

[Phillip Patterson]

ultimately vinyl is just plastic with a glue paste on the back to obviously adhere to the substrate. I was just thinking as the peeling is only to a minor extent would something like super glue or any other form of glue not do the trick??? the peeling is less then 6-7 mm maxiumum. It would ba a right pain doing the whole job as the rivets, handles e.t.c would take at least 2 days to do. theyre has to be a simple BUT lasting fix to this, which doesnt look like a boj up job.

any ideas would be gratful.

thanx

phil

😕

[Phill Fenton]

If it was me – I would carefully trim away all of the vinyl that wasn’t sticking (e.g a 5 or 10mm strip) and print a 10-15mm band of the area where the two panels overlap and apply this over the seam.

[Peter Normington]

quote Phill Fenton:

If it was me – I would carefully trim away all of the vinyl that wasn’t sticking (e.g a 5 or 10mm strip) and print a 10-15mm band of the area where the two panels overlap and apply this over the seam.

Phil I am disappointed in you, not a a professional solution,
sounds good in theory, but doubt it would work in practice. It would never match, and would still look a bodge repair, apart from the practicality of printing and laminating such a long thin strip!
Would you accept a substandard solution from one of your suppliers?
the job went wrong, so do the whole thing again, and even buy in the print from someone who has a wider printer, so no need for a join.

I think the customer needs to have a proper job done to restore confidence, otherwise he is going to go elsewhere next time, and more to the point, not recommend you to his mates.

I am not sure why it would take 2 days to redo, I can only see a few hours work here

Peter

[Matty Goodwin]

Much as it grieves me I again agree with Peter!

Super glue??? Try putting some on a piece of vinyl and see what happens!!

Printing a 15mm band that matches up, colour etc…???

Bit the bullet. Re-print and re-fit. (DRY)!!!

If the customer is a valued one, it will be noticed and passed on.

Its very easy to get a bad reputation in this game….

Matt

[Phill Fenton]

quote Phill Fenton:

If it was me – I would carefully trim away all of the vinyl that wasn’t sticking (e.g a 5 or 10mm strip) and print a 10-15mm band of the area where the two panels overlap and apply this over the seam.

I stand by what I said earlier. This is the obvious solution to try before going to the expense and time of re-doing everything again.

[Peter Normington]

I dont believe you are serious phil.
If you were the customer would you accept a repair, rather than a replacement?
Its like you accepting a reconditioned engine, for your car after paying for a new one.
Peter

[Phill Fenton]

That’s not a valid argument in this case Peter.

Every time we do a "one off" sign" or vehicle wrap, it is effectively a prototype.

By the time we’ve finished we can usually always think of ways that the job could have been done better, but we don’t automatically re-do every "one off" sign or wrap until we reach perfection.

This particular example already has a seam that would be visible on close inspection. Re- doing that seam is not a bodge, it’s called after sales service.

[Peter Normington]

Phil
We will have to agree to differ, if its a valid argument or not,
and how customer service is defined.
But why not at the least print the whole bottom section again and not just a 15-20mm strip?
Granted there is a join on the first application, but using your method will turn this into 2.
Peter

[Phill Fenton]

Some good discussion going on here Peter, that’s why I’ve always thought of you as a master debater 😕

[Gavin MacMillan]

I think Phill’s option is a good one. I would put it to the customer as an option and be willing to replace the whole panel if they prefer. My guess us the customer will be happy with the fix.

Also I think there is something more wrong here than getting done wet and overlap going the wrong way (see thread about back to front joins of trailers!) Looks like very cheap vinyl and although it’s been said it outgassed properly I’d be inclined to guess it didn’t, maybe through being stored badly. If this happened due to applying wet we would see threads like this everyday!

[Chris Wool]

i know the join is the wrong way round but i am with phill

:peek:

has it been power washed

enjoy

[Jason Xuereb]

Dont attempt superglue on the car.

[Bob Clarkson]

Well, It’s not because it’s a wet application, because I apply pretty much everything wet and I’ve never had this happen.

It’s not because of what it’s made of, be it stainless, composite or whatever, because the vinyl is pealing off the vinyl, not the vehicle.

It’s obvious it should be lapped the other way, but it won’t cause this problem if you don’t.

So really, we don’t know what the problem is at all. Meaning if he redoes the whole thing, there’s every chance it’ll happen again.

Now how helpful am I ??

[Gary Birch]

I personally would be looking to redo it, especially when your name is sat right at the side of it. Bodging it will probably cost you the more than the cost of replacing it in lost revenue.

Just my 2p worth anyway.

Cheers

Gary

Ps I’d change the spelling of confectionary too 😉

[Peter Normington]

quote Phill Fenton:

Some good discussion going on here Peter, that’s why I’ve always thought of you as a master debater 😕

Takes one to know one 😀

Peter

[Phill Fenton]

:lol1: :lol1:

[Robert Lambie]

he has stated he has allowed 24hrs out gassing. he has stated he has fitted wet and tiled vice-versa. there for i would put my money on it being the WET application is the cause, coupled by the tiling sequence.
had it been dry, it wouldnt have happened.

to be honest, it where out-gassing issues, ide expect to have seen this all the way around the edges of each panel. Not just the "join" on the lower tile!

[Gwaredd Steele]

I’m going to guess that the failure has been caused by over enthusiastic & maybe premature use of a jetwash. The upside-down overlap has possibly made water ingress far easier too.

For a repair, I would attempt to fit a new lower panel with 10mm overlap & fit dry as others have said & hope for the best. If it fails again, you only have one solution & that’s to re-do it entirely.

Any glue will leave a horrid lumpy mess under the vinyl. It just doesn’t work. (a, er, friend told me 😳 )

[Bob Clarkson]

I’d happily put a few quid on it not being due to wet application, as I’ve been doing it that way since 1984, and I’ve never had this happen.

Think I’d start looking to what quality the vinyl was. Only the person who fitted this had any chance or knowing for sure what kind of day it way weather wise and if he ran the squeegee over it to expel enough water and to ensure it was at least stick in the first instance.

I would probably just replace the bottom strip as the rest seems fine. Reason for this is as he can’t be sure what the problem really is, the whole lot could start peeling next time. I’d also start on a new roll of vinyl, it really could be that simple.

Obviously lapping it that way round is not ideal, but one thing vinyl sticks to well is vinyl, and that’s the bit that hasn’t stuck!!!