[Stuart Miller]

This is now available and will take £2,000.

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks for the replies guys.
It encouraged me to try the plotter and it seems to work fine, as advised though only use the size needed as a roll will be too heavy.
cheers

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks for the input, Used A join in the end which gave a nice fit all across the panels.
Used Foamalux Ultra for the panels, Thanks Phil Fenton for that pointer from last year.
Saved me flood coating foam boards and gave a nice gloss finish.

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[Stuart Miller]

Thanks for the input guys, A then 🙂

[Stuart Miller]

As Ian says
Bubble free doesn’t like moisture when cut into small letters.
Give them a lesson in how to clean awindow without catching the edges. !
Depending on size is it possible to cover with a clear film?

[Stuart Miller]

Can’t go wrong with the Price it guide.
It may be a little out of date (not sure if there is an uptodate edition) but it gives a good example of the different price ranges for different layouts.
Even after 10 years of doing my own pricing I often refer to the guide for a starting point with a customer and when I spend time working out all the costs in detail I seem to always come out pretty much in line with the guide,.
Price it Guide

[Stuart Miller]

Depending which etch effect you use as Standard Frost is half the price of Dusted, Silver or Crystal I charge at £30 to £35 per sq metre plus £5 per pane .
So for each pane I would charge about £60 – £69 so £690 for the 10.
It would only be a 1 man job though.
I would buy it as 15 – 20 metres of 1220 wide so only have to cut it across at the length you need

[Stuart Miller]

Not sure what you mean by Ultra Clear?
Anti Glare by definition a works by reducing the amount of light and vision though the window.
Any reduction in the amount of light passing through the window both reduces the vision and increases the reflection on the outside of the window so making it harder to see into a window.
Some of the lightest window films such as a Visible Light Transmission 70% films will be optically clear for looking from the inside out but will still increase the amount of reflection when looking from the outside in, so the two characteristics you are looking for are physically incompatible

[Stuart Miller]

I really like the range from Signboard Systems. I have used them several times. Hugo is very helpful
http://www.signboardsystems.co.uk/

[Stuart Miller]

thanks for the suggestions

[Stuart Miller]

No image so cannot see what you are on about.

[Stuart Miller]

I find the vector tools in Flexi Sign really easy to use and smooth out images.

[Stuart Miller]

3mm Composite for most fascia and wall signs.
Scored and snapped then file & sand edges gives a good smooth finish.

3mm Aluminium plate for most freestanding pole & plate signs and most Tray signs (Sometimes 3mm ACM for Trays)

19mm Foam board for Projecting signs

[Stuart Miller]

I nearly always get this on the last 3rd of a roll.
Try & be careful in storing and looking after edges but it still seems to happen and I cant remember when Iwas able to use a log until the end of the roll. Usually chuck it away with frustration and lose 25% of the roll. Funnily enough I was just about to post the same question !!

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks Martin, funny how you overlook things you use in other applications. I even had a sample of that in my briefcase when visited the client.. 🙂
Stockframe on a folded tray panel would be very similar.

[Stuart Miller]

Do you know if you can sign fram with the picture frame shaped edges, to match an old pub sign?
As that would do yes.

[Stuart Miller]

Seems unless you want to organise a bespoke mould, costing a fortune, we are stuck nowadays with a maximum size of 3000mm from Glas plas and only 2450 from signmaster

[Stuart Miller]

I’d second Kevin’s way using app tape and a pencil to make a template to lay over vinyl.

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks again

[Stuart Miller]

Another question on this,
if decide to use 3mm composite material how would you stop the boards rattling in a 5mm frame channel ?

[Stuart Miller]

good old duct tape

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Attachments:

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks Guys
Quite agree on the Acrylic maybe not best when not to be lit up. I was led away from ACM as the frame channel is 5mm so thought 3mm composite would be loose in it.
When the customer has the lease organised we will be going to do a more in depth survey to see what is behind the panels and testing the wood and fixings.
I just did a quick removal of one end panel of the frame and slid one panel out. Could see there was no hanging strip and the frame just had a 5mm wide slot which is 20mm deep. The frame is 810mm high.
The old boards that are in are 5mm foam board.
Not heard of Foamalux Ultra, Phil, I’ll look into that. Think the price will also lead him towards foam or Composite,

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks for the reply Rob>
I can see that problem.
Also there does not seem to be a hanging strip so the frame only has a 5mm slot all around.
What about the wind suction?
cheers

[Stuart Miller]

I finish all my flood coating of ACM panels with a file. I file the excess off with a rough file moving down away from the panel. This cuts the vinyl off and at the same time heats it and thins it to make a very clean edge which I have never seen lift yet. I may also go over it with a some fine wet & dry paper to give an even smoother finish. A bit time consuming if doing a lot of boards but has alway worked well for me.

[Stuart Miller]

Can anyone help with my enquiry about framing panels?
I’ve heard about wind loading sucking out panels. What is thjere to look for and how do you guard against this?

[Stuart Miller]

quote Danny Miller:

Spoke with contravision today and as Warren said you need to able to print white , something we don’t do in house. Customer just wants to be able to see out and let sun light in the office without people looking in , i was thinking of tinting the windows and applying their logo in reverse print, as background will be black

Sounds like they want tinting to me as any prduct that offers this will cut down on light.

[Stuart Miller]

I seperate all my quotes into
Design & Artwork
Supply of sign & materials
Transport & fitting

I then explain that all signs require some form of artwork adjustment but if they supply print ready artwork this will be a small charge otherwise charged hourly and if lots of changes and extra proofs this will go up pro rata.

I also have a section on my website under "FAQs for signs" where I try to prepare people with what is involved in making a sign and such things as design & artwork, how long will it take and maintenance.
Link here if anyone interested 🙂
FAQs for Signs – Reflecta

[Stuart Miller]

Are you after vinyl that can be printed like contra vision or do you mean a one way vision window film Like a reflective silver film?
One way vison films should all be called one way daylight films asthey only work during the daylight.
At night when lights are put on the one way vision is reversed.
Need to know what the customer is after, so more information required.

[Stuart Miller]

I use Amari.
They deliver to my area on a Tues & Thurs and as long as i order sometime the day before it arrives cut the next day.

[Stuart Miller]

quote David Hammond:

I had this chat with David today.

10 years is the default service life if not specified. Easy solution is specify the Service life you’re comfortable with.

When you buy a car, or a £15 kettle, you get an instruction book, telling you how to care for your item.

You try taking a new car back the garage saying it’s broke because it ran out oil and you kept driving it, first thing they’d do flick to the page in the manual, where it says don’t drive it when the oil light comes on.

We are the professionals, we know about signs, we should probably tell the customer who knows nothing about signs, when & how to maintain the sign… if they do not follow the guidance, it is their responsibility.

With or without the BSGA these legislations are here to stay.

Ihad this query when I joined and it made me update my T&Cs.
I now say I will only warranty a sign for 6 months and that regular maintenance inspections should be arranged.
Not sure anyone reads the T&Cs but its in there and I have never had a query for a maintenace inspectyion yet !

[Stuart Miller]

I’ve used these Ali Channels for sliders.
There are two types. The ones shown and some with rounded sides. For your use behind the acrylic the flat ones probably best.
Aluminium Channel

[Stuart Miller]

More often than not when I price up the labour for cleaning it comes to the same as a new sheet.

[Stuart Miller]

I usually use a scaffolding tower as they are usually quite cheap. You are able to change the position of the boards to different heights so should cope with doing bottom and top.
Cherry picker usually requires that you have a certified operator, especially outside in a public place, and I never get around to doing a training course.

[Stuart Miller]

That looks like it Chris
Cheers

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks jamie, that will help

[Stuart Miller]

On further checking with the CSCS they have said many jobs which used to be on the cheme have ben removed and they now understand that Window Film, manefestations and small vinyl jobs are not covered and that no card is neccessary to atend a site. They have produced a pagfe which explains this, but do acknowledge that some site still insist on a 100% card workforce. The page https://www.cscs.uk.com/news/why-a-100-carded-workforce-isnt-always-100-right/ is as much to explain to site supervisors that it is not necessary to have card.

So it seems we should not actually require acard under the new scheme !

[Stuart Miller]

quote Chris Windebank:

HI Stuart, all of the white cards expire in September this year I am led to believe.

I have found a window filming NVQ and there is a signs one apparently but don’t know where.

For now I am applying for the green card which is a one day course as a general labourer just to get over the problem for 130.00, wrong maybe but since lack of knowing where to go its my only choice as I work on large superstores and need this just to get through the door.

I only renewed my card last year and it says expires 2020.So I guess I am lucky for a few years
It does seem they are not supplying these cards anymore but it says nothing about expiring existing cards early.

When i look at the back it says
Window Film, graphics & manefestationsoperative Employer Certified.
Timber Frame Hoarding Installer Employer Certified
Decorative Artist G Co non construction employer Certified

[Stuart Miller]

I have tried being a member as after talking to David Catanach at a trade show I was led into believing they would help and support the small business.
In particular even though I have an engineering background (BSc) I have never worked as an engineer and was interested in how one could make sure your signs could be safe and how to calculate the strength of supports and attachments.
This was an area the BSGA was pushing to make sure individuals would not be liable to prosecution.
So I thought I would try their support and after being a member for a couple of years I am about to cancel the mebership as I have found far more help on this forum than the BSGA haver ever given.

As several may have noticed I have asked about peoples views on sign safety a couple of times over the years and contacted the BSGA at the same time.
The BSGA did put me in touch with an engineer who has his own design business and is a tech advisor for them. I sent all the details for a small projecting sign, the type we all put up every day without thinking, as a bit of a test to see what they thought we should be submitting as an technical construction sign. the enfgineer did send me areport that was so complicated that only another engineer would understand it and was way above my level of comprehension. It would be impossible for me to undertake such a report for every sign I supply. I then contacted a structural engineer who said he had necer heard of such reports for such small signs but that for hime to produce would cost in the region of £300 minimum. This would basically make a smallprojecting sign unviable in terms of cost and time for such a report.
So basically it would seem that the BSGA association is not in tune with how we operate as small one man businesses.

The BSGA also suggested that the manufacturer of signs bought in should be able to supply their technical construction files and strengths. When I have asked a few suppliers for such information a couple laughed and jsut said they were strong enough for the job.
the best and most indformative reply was this
"No one in the real world gets an engineer to calculate small sign installations and I have never seen or heard of this being done. Any practical person can assess if the strength of a projecting or swing sign is satisfactory by firstly using large enough bolts. M8 or M10 are fine for a
700 x 750 sign if the bolt is high tensile M10 or 12 if mild steel coach bolts are used. And if the bolts can be tightened reasonably without going round and round the fixing is sound. If the wall is made of good quality bricks use shield anchors but these are difficult to get right. the manufacturer will specify the drill bit size but you must not drill the hole using this size bit or the hole will be to large. Drill the hole with smaller bit and then use the correct size bit to ream the hole out. You need to blow the hole out with air to make sure no dust is in the hole (bike pump can be used) or this dust will get in the threads. The Rawl bolt website give details of how to use them but sign fitters don’t bang the anchor in with a hammer they attach the anchors to the bolts and press the bracket and bolts in to the wall as one component. If the wall is made of less than sound materials as a lot of older properties are in your area use chemical fixings following the manufacturers instruction, but it is best to end up with a fixing type that allows the bracket to be removed and re fitted for future maintenance etc."

So I think the BSGA could have given me this advice rather than suggesting a course of action which is impossible to follow without emplying a structural engineer.

So after the two ywars i feel I have not really gained much from membership.
AS for NVQs and CSCS cards: as others have said i have never neen asked for quals and customers are more interested ins eeing existing work>
I have a white CSCS card for Construction Related Occupation, which did not require any NVQs and only needed me to attend a safety test. That seems to satisfy any site I have to attend

[Stuart Miller]

I’ve just had one from

Christine Ellinson
Advanced Laser Technology
2nd Floor, Minshull House, Chorlton Street
Manchester
Lancashire
M1 3FY
Tel: 01614372585

Was immediately suspicious when they asked for a quote for window film then immediately wanted 10x the amount quoted and said we order in big quantities.
can’t contact them on phone.
Advanced Laser Technologies have a different email 7 phone number and address !!!

on further searching as I was curious I find this note actually on the ALT website

FRAUD WARNING
We have become aware that fraudsters are using the Advanced Laser Technology name to commit fraud against suppliers.

They can be detected by the fact that they are using an incorrect address and contact is made by Christine Ellison using Ellisonchristine700@gmail.com as the email address.

Be aware that they overpay for goods using a cheque and then ask for refund. The cheque then does not clear leaving the supplier out of pocket.

so take care

[Stuart Miller]

As Iain says for large areas on glass I would always wet apply.
As for black on windows, it depends on the glass type. If Toughened glass no problem.
If laminated or single pane annealed then there is a risk of Thermal stress casuing cracking and customer should be warned.
Always going to be a join on a big window and again customer should be warned in advance and discuss what sort of join is wanted. Vertical or Horizantal? Overlap ot butt join.
The choice is dependent on the criteria of the customers needs. In window film shop windows I usually do a but join using the factory edge of the film as this is the least obvious and usually vertically in the centre of the window. As this is usually a light fil and for UV fading protection if the film overtime shrinks a little the gap will hardly be noticed.

Black Vinyl on the other hand is possible more likely to shrink and the gap may be more noticeable from the inside as a bright ligt gap so would probably be more inclined to overlap join that.
As long as you discuss with client the options beforehand then they know what to expect and have made that choice for youbefore the installation.

As others have mentioned a but join can be done with factory edge, or running a knife down an overlap or using knifeless tape through an overlap.

[Stuart Miller]

I hadn’t come accross these until last year when Llumar Window film recomended them too me for sealing window film near the coast.
So they are the only place I know that sell them, They distribute from Belgium, but they may be able to sell you one or advise as to another supplier>
Their part code is Felt Tip pen 50149350
and spare tips Felt Tips 50149210
Not come accross a supplier in the UK

Try calling Jennifer Urbas, Customer Service Representative
Eastman Chemical Company
Advanced Materials – Performance Films
Leonardo Da Vincilaan 1
1935 Zaventem
Belgium

Phone UK 0808 234 3901 –

[Stuart Miller]

Not really anything negative about james and 101 and I have been pleased when i have used them. I did not come on here all guns blazing with a complaint.
James came on saying he could priovide the service and all I said was I had actually already called him and been promised a call back and it never came. This happens, no big deal I am not complaining just letting him know what happened, end of.

[Stuart Miller]

I am quite happy to email for quotes and usually do, but as Dave says we sometimes need to talk to discuss materials or the best way to do something.
When I called on Tuesday your secretary said you were there and said would call me back by the end of the day.
If she had told me you were away then fine but she didn’t and she never asked me to email.

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks Dave, yes that is what I have told them.

[Stuart Miller]

quote James Sahota:

We produce these for a number of clients 10mm clear acrylic printed in the rear then sealed with a 2mm sheet and back with locators. The print is fully sealed within and has no issues.

I called you days ago to talk about this James and was promised a call back that day, still waiting.
To be honest this has happened nearly every time I have tried to order something from you so now go where I get a reply.
Sorry but I do try.

Customer wants solid white letters 10cm thick without standoffs with print on the front.
Offered them Foam or acrylic and they seem to be starpped as chose Foam even after advising acrylic.

[Stuart Miller]

Hi Peter
I use mainly Solar Gard and as Stefan has said they now supply direct from Belgium and would have to set up an account with them to get this service and may not do it for a one off.
Contact to ask this would be Suzie or Ian on (0)1905-640400.

The other UK supplier who deal mainly with the auto industry are Durable Ltd. in Reading Tel 0118 989 5200.
They may have some Silver 20 available.

hope that helps
Stuart

As far as costs go anything less than a full roll only has a £12.50 cutting charge and carriage from Belgium is charged the same as a UK distributor so no difference in supply charges from when they had a UK base.

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks Simon, good idea

[Stuart Miller]

Think the £70 is the buying in price Dave.
The attached photo of the standoff letters cost me £134 in brushed silver dibond. In acrylic they would have been about £70. they come supplie with locators and template free, (so no work there), I would normally add a 55% mark up then a couple of hours for drilling and screwing on locators.

It does not really matter to me if the buying in price is cheap or expensive as that just gets a mark up. I sometimes use a bit of flexibility here to adjust the price but my main costs in this type of sign for me are labour of drawing up the design & proofs and then fitting locators.
So roughly for me
1 hour design, £30
2-3 hours fitting £60 – £90 (this is the only bit which really takes time and varies depending how many locators to fix)
letters £108
total around £198 + Vat

ARTWORK

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Attachments:

[Stuart Miller]

What costs are you struggling with?
I usually price them as
a)Design & layout time
b) cost of materials plus a mark up
c) Installation time

[Stuart Miller]

quote David Hammond:

The customer is looking for 40mm tall letters to stand off the wall, which I think will be too small, as there’s less margin for error, and will likely only get 2 studs on each letter.

I’m thinking perhaps having a rail maid with flat cut letters welded to those?

In my experience a company like Trade Letters will not cut letters smaller than 50mm and the narrowest stroke width of 5mm.

[Stuart Miller]

Hi Shaun
I am split about 50%/50% signs & tinting.
I do cars and archetectural flat glass.
While it is possible to teach yourself tinting it would take an awful long time and there are so many little tricks of the trade for car tinting it is well worth doing a course. It then takes plenty of practise on many cars to get proficient and be at an acceptable standard to charge customers for your work. The basics are easy and that what leads many into thinking its an easy job to get into. In real life its very frustrating with so many things that can go wrong during the many stages of getting a tint onto a car without dust. Its not a quick buck. So many one man bands start up and charge ridiculously cheap prices because the material and tools are relatively cheap but forget to charge for the skill in doing a good job and the hours of practise to get there. These cheap shops usually only last a few months then move on. I started mainly on car tinting but unless you are based in a city with a high turnover and do it full time it is not a big money spinner/.
I’ve been doing it now 10 years and in that time it is the only part of my business where I have not raised my prices at all yet seen rent and materials prices rise constantly. I now still do cars when asked but really not that bothered with it as the other parts of my business are far less stressful and pay better.

As for Archetectural tinting. This is where the money is and although the fitting may be more straightforward than a car training is still advised. Most Film supply companies will organise training on their films as the important thing is to use the right film in th right place. Only training can teach you this and the potential to muck it up and cause alot of damage is high.
As for tools, you would learn what you need on a course as otherwise evrybody has their favourites.

[Stuart Miller]

quote Chris Ranner:

It’s not really that hard a series of calcs, the reason it “costs so much” to get a structural engineer (like me) to do it is because it takes a lot of time to do, it’s usually requires a series of sketches and there are a lot of things to check!

Also, if you are doing it yourself you should be aware of the implications/risk. There are different temporary and permanent works codes of practice. If you are doing a large free standing sign board for a building site that’s going to be there for a few months needs a different set of codes to one that will be there for 2 years.

Another issue, if you design it “correctly” to the codes, a lot of the time the chap making the thing will say “gawd this is over designed, I’ve been doing these for 20yrs and never had to do this before!”

Thanks for that perspective Chris and I totally agree with you. From an Engineers point of view it is time consuming and therefore costly. I understand that and also what you say that the sign manufacturer says it is over engineered etc. but that Still leaves us as the installer being the scapegoat and is everybody just burying their head in the sand and hoping nothing happens to the signs we fit.
I find it hard to believe that in this day and age that no specific training in this area is available, or am I missing it?

[Stuart Miller]

Yes Graham I have been trying to get hold of the book. It seems only available on Kindle and did you not see my post about how that led me into a whole horror show of trying to down load the kindle app.
I would love to get that book and look at the calculations, as I have info for wind loading and materials etc.
Is there another link as the one you gave for th spreadsheet download did not work?
thanks for trying to help

[Stuart Miller]

Yep
I’m sure that is how it works>
However I am a member of the BSGA as I thought it may be worth joining to find out more. But despite me asking them they just cover them selves and say its up to you to make it safe. So joining didn’t help there !!
As I have an engineering background I am now on a mission to actually find out how to do it as I would like to know for my own knowledge.
Thanks for the replies but looking like i should just trust my judgement and use big anchor bolts, but somehow I feel like a cowboy which I don’t like.

[Stuart Miller]

quote Graham Shand:

Stuart, there is a book available on Kindle called Engineering Sign Structures which although very technical answers all the question regards the calculations required , including pole supports, wind loading / surface area, worth a read, it also gives the formulas to allow you to calculate any questions you may have now or in the future, the reason why most engineers would avoid taking on your project is because it is a science which they would shy away from as it is a very specialized area of engineering.

thanks for trying to help graham bit this has led me into 2 hours of frustration with Kindle, amazon, downloading the app, trojan virus, app not loading properly. app not connecting tio amazon, app not being able to uninstall and amazon tech support.. phew
Still no better off with the original query ;(

[Stuart Miller]

Yes Dave I’m sure they do just wing it and I have only ever up to now replaced boards and swing panels on existing signs.
I have also installed the small Tradesignz Ject rigid panels which are quite small and light and been happy that my anker bolt fixings are well above what is required for them.
Now I have been asked to install a completely new Bracket and swing sign for a shop.
In theory this also needs planning permission and I presume I will have to show the safe construction and engineering details for the planning permission.
As I have said above this must be an area that every sign maker encounters on a regular basis yet it appears to be a dark art that no-one is able to help with.
I have asked the sign manufacturers and they just say it is up to you to arrange your own structural engineer.
I can understand that a large project can price for and hire an engineer but for a £200 shop projecting sign which can be bought off the shelf it seems overkill. However if that’s what others do and price for it then obviously I will go down that route but after calling at least 6 structural engineers none of them seemed to understand the request or want to help as they see their job as larger construction projects, and want to charge £300 just for a simple consultation.
I am hoping there would be some sort of template that we could use when planing this type of thing.

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks Graham.
however the link does not work for me.

Also it seems quite a complicated calculation and if you say structural engineers shy away from it what do most sign makers do.
There must be loads of projecting signs put up every day, yet I have never yet heard how other sign makers on here approach this area of the job.

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks David
that would be really helpful.
just getting a quote together for a customer at this stage so do not know if it will go ahead yet.

All they have said is an oval sign 460mm x 610mm.
trying to find out more.
Pm me or email info@reflecta.co.uk
cheers Stuart

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks David, I’ve already spoken to them and they have a minimum order of £150 so not viable for a small one off !

[Stuart Miller]

Yes Neil, its quite easy to draw an oval but its the smooth cutting of the shape once drawn that I find awkward without a router.
Straight cuts I score and snap ACM and then file & sand the edges but cutting curves to look professional I have not managed yet.

[Stuart Miller]

Applying wet over the tint film will not affect the tint except it will get hot in the sunshine.
Tint film is often water activated but not usually on vehicles where it is pressure activated and the water is only used to position it. Either way once activated water will have no affect on adhesive as it gets wet all the time on vehicles and on external window applications, and even in shower cubicles. In fact is very hard to get off so water and condensation does not matter.

[Stuart Miller]

I have a customer who would like to do an illuminated panel along these lines but he wants to do 2 sides of a Projecting sign.
how would you go about this?
I presume he would have to use 2 sheets back to back with light blocking vinyl in between.

Thanks

[Stuart Miller]

Same as Denise for me.
3mm Hoarding composite for most trade signs who request the best price.
3mm Dibond or Amari equivalent composite for those you can explain the difference of quality and lifespan to.

[Stuart Miller]

quote Daniel Taylor:

quote Steff Davison:

I would charge £129(including £60 for sub fitter) 50% deposit, balance when fitted. The work is in fitting it, the rest is easy peasey. Its not difficult enough to warrant a premium IMO.

Hi Stef, thanks for that so your at 190 and i actually went in @ 250 .. I think that’s reasonable. Cheers

I think Steph’s price of £129 is right.
For the plain frost its less than £20 quid of film and maximum 2 hours work.
Not sure where the £190 came from Daniel?

My price for plain frost would be £35 /sqm so that is £75
Then I always have a pane charge (to account for lots of small panes as opposed to one large pane.) that is £5 per pane so an extra £35.
Then if the film wasn’t in stock and a one off there may be a carriage charge of £10 to get it in specially.
Altogether that is still only £120 plus VAT is £144.

If any mileage we also charge 45p a mile.

I’ve compared very similar prices to mine with quite a few others and usually seems inline. Possibly I’m now falling behind and if most think this is cheap I may increase my prices.
Never seen such a large mark up on a couple of meters of window filming before ! those sizes are hardly bigger than my computer screen !!!! probably slap on all 7 small panes in an hour !
But hey you got the job so well and good, but I don’t think its normal

[Stuart Miller]

OK so now it seems that it is not plain etch/frost but a cut design in etch film. That is a completely different matter and not stated in your first post.
My fist reply was based on fitting of a straight forward etch install with no design cut; that was how it was described.

If each pane is the same fairly straightforward design then £300 is about right.
If its a complicated fine weeding design then its too little
If its a different design on each window then its definitely too little.

there are so many variables not given

[Stuart Miller]

great if you can get it!
My price would be nearer a third of that!!!

[Stuart Miller]

I use mainly Metamark M7 but when I cant find asuitable colour usually fall back on Hexis as well.
Their S5000 range is very similar to M7

[Stuart Miller]

cheers David, yes I may have to go with that one. Originally thought it it is still darker than what the client wants to match on existing signs but probably going to be positioned far enough away from them to be acceptable.

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks kieth, yep told them this, so also want to make sure is fully dry.

[Stuart Miller]

It is an exterior fascia and I have recomended gloss paint. They are asking how long I need as I have warned them to wait.
So a week would be fine, a month probably a bit long,
just want to be safe as I’ve had paint peel off with the transfer tape in the past but think that was mainly poor preperation and no undercoat.

[Stuart Miller]

As far as the ACM fascia is concerned this is a good place to start.
http://www.priceitsignguide.com/

As far as the frame is concerned its hard for anyone to comment unless you can see t6he work actually involved.
I either quote on an hourly bais plus materials or ask a joiner to quote and do the work.

[Stuart Miller]

Put it on the outside ?

[Stuart Miller]

hexis do a pastel Pink in prmium cast KG10182B

[Stuart Miller]

quote George Elsmore:

UPDATE : Been and had a look and had a go at pulling some off it came off a doddle with little effort and no residue just got to price up now for removing 600 windows 😮

cheers for everyones input

take a good look as film which comes off easily often leaves a layer of adhesive which may at first not be seen.
Still use a scraper and isoproponyl to check if any residue.
If film is stuck hard then using a sharp knife it can be scored into 6" wide strips which are easier to remove.

I charge by the hour at £30/hour, as you never know if its goingto be 5 mins or hours.

[Stuart Miller]

cheers Guys.
Oracal 970 grey is metallic finish and Metamark M7 I use all the time and is only in Gloss.
they do an M4 in grey matt but it is mid grey not a dark one (although they call it dark !!!)
i deally what i want is M7 Nimbus Grey in Matt.
Could use a matt laminate if customer is that picky I suppose.

[Stuart Miller]

Many thanks for the suggestions as two suggested here Accent Signs and Sign Trade are the only two true trade suppliers that would allow a mark up.
All others approached were charging more than double and would have cost me more than I can now sell on to the customer.!!
So top result guys 🙂

[Stuart Miller]

I’ve done a 7 m wall with Phototex. That was supplied by Redcliffe but they seem to have changed to a product called Fabritac.
The Phototex was easy to work with, but I am after more up to date advice myself as I have just been asked to install a 24 metre long wall like this.
The Paste the wall or pre-pasted dip in water options are much cheaper but surlely not as easy and clean as the repositional.

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, i’ll try them all

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks Rob another good idea.

[Stuart Miller]

Yes and just talked to supplier who has suggested making all in one piece of silver faced ACM and putting horizantal bars in vinyl.
Have also adjusted their design a tadge to lower the baubles a little to give slightly thicker points at the join.
Think we are good to go now.
Thanks for the advice Martin

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks Martin.
I was hoping ACM would be OK on locators.
My other idea was to cut out of 10mm foam board and double sided tape but then the edges would be white

[Stuart Miller]

Allgood on Chrome for me

Version 47.0.2526.106 m
no extensions apart from google documents (Whatever that is as can’t remember using it)

[Stuart Miller]

I use these
http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/acatalog/CFS_Ca … l_534.html

[Stuart Miller]

I think it depends on what contractural terms you produced their logo.
Some companies keep copywright of their designs whereas some will give the copywright to the client so they can have free use of the logo on any future work.
When I do a design I give copywright to the customer, charge for the design work and send them eps. and pdf, files for them to keep and use how they wish. That is what i would expect and think it unreasonable to expect the client to have to come back to the person who did the original logo design for all future work.
However this should be made clear at the discussion and contract stage of the design work.
Also a client may want to try different companies for different products so fair enough to get the logo from you for others to use.
I often approach companies for logo files they may have rather than try and remake them.
So hopefully it was only a misunderstanding that they truly didn’y know you did van signage and that by supplying the proper logo files you will build trust and respect so they will come back to you again later

[Stuart Miller]

Try your local NFU Mutual.
I looked at Elite and it is a good package if you need all the sections it covers, but NFU are very flexible and can sort something to suit an individual.

[Stuart Miller]

another one
I’ve used Victory Signs who did agreat job on this handdrawn skyline view.

http://www.victory-signs.co.uk/

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[Stuart Miller]

Mike, if you are struggling to work out prices on your own circumstances then this Price it Guide can be very useful.
i still often use it for a quick estimate and when I spend the time to work out things in more detail it seems to always come out pretty close to the guide so if short of time and experience then you can’t go far wrong with it

http://www.priceitsignguide.com/

[Stuart Miller]

I get mine from Amari in the North East. I haven’t really noticed the price go up much and they deliver to my area twice a week on their own lorry with their own driver used to the materials and very keen to avoid any damage.
A great service in this area

[Stuart Miller]

quote Robert Lambie:

I apply all my etch dry, never had a problem. our guys also install it dry.
you will see videos of me installing multiple glass etch panels dry in our tutorials section of the site.

the bubbles are created because your installation technique is wrong.

if you cannot apply dry, apply it wet or use bubble free etch.

Rob. the only tutorials I can find on applying etch are you installing on quite small areas of glass and with cut designs on application paper. In that situation I agree dry is the way to go,
Hoever how do you do a large area of glass say 3m wide window with say with 1220mm high frosting? I would like to see a tutoruial on how to do that dry. i’m sure it is just down to technique but would love to see it done.
I am often in the situation of frosting large panes and don’t see how I could tackle them dry by myself or even witha partner to hold the roll, as the chances of getting it right without any blemishes first shot seem small. One small mark and you have to remove the whole sheet.

[Stuart Miller]

I’m not going to get drawn into the Wet dry debate as I think both methods have their place and I use either depending on circumstances,
However a couple of things picked up from my window tinting background as regards wet installs

First the Fairy, Johnsons, rapid tack debate. If in a moist or cold environment then Rapid Tac 2 definitely helps. the original Rapid Tac was not much better than water & fairy.
In the window tinting world water and Johnsons baby shampoo has been and still is the most accepted slip solution. While film manufacturers will always try & sell an own brand slip solution most have agreed that for experience Water & Jonsons works without adverse affects. So on a quantity, cost & ease of availability basis I always use Water & Johnsons baby shampoo for everything except vinyl in a cold or wet environment, then rapid Tac where required.

Dealing with condensation
Condensation will cause all end of problems, Its not the using of a wet application technique as if squegeed properly and the edges bumped with a hard card and absorbent cloths there should be no water left under the film. However proper squeegees and techniques are just as important here as the skills of dry application.
Its the condensation after the install which as you have found out runs down and causes problems.
AS Peter has said even a light mist can stop the frost sticking. But with window Film Squeegees that should be OK to deal with/ the importance of trying to keep it dry after the install is the biggest problem.

If all else fails or if it looks like heavy condensation I will often resort to a Polyester Window Film Frost rather than standard vinyl etch. This looks the same but is tougher and will outlast any vinyl frost but mainly because has a Water Activated Adhesive so it will go off and set in wet conditions. As long as there is not a constant stream running down the window. I have had to do a hair salon in the evening to give it 12 -15 hours before they started work & getting it wet again.

Also make sure not to use Bubble Free or Air releaee vinyl in any wet application or even dry application where there is condensation as damp will get in the channels and be very hard to ever get out.

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks for all the replies & suggestions.
It will be a great help
Stuart

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks james but the customer decided they coudn’t afford to get the one letter fixed !!!
Poshest restraunt in town as well !!!! oh well 🙂

[Stuart Miller]

I put my fuel, vehicle tax, vehicle insurance into what i charge per mile so that would not come into my hourly rate for general work. However also in my per mile rate i add £10 for every 50 miles as a driver payment.

[Stuart Miller]

Many thanks Simon

[Stuart Miller]

For window tinting we have been using about 3ml of J&J baby shampoo per litre of water for years.
I use the same solution for most vinyl when I have to flood coat large areas. give or take a few drops depending on temperature.
I was always told that in an emergency you could use other washing up liqids but they do contain addatives thay react with the adhesive whereas J&J baby shampoo has been used in the industry for years with no problems and most window film manufacturers accepting it as a suitable slip solution which will not affect their warranties.
Other advantage of baby shampoo when we are installing conservatory roofs that it doesn’t sting your eyes.
Same as Dave I use a large 7 litre hand pressure sprayer which can cover a large window or panel in seconds.

Having said that in cold conditions I resort back to Rapid tac 2 for vinyl where it is imporatnt to get a good bond quickly.
And for most text and small panels I do dry.

[Stuart Miller]

have you tried asking the AA themselves?

[Stuart Miller]

I did a wall photo for The Wordsworth Museum and used Redcliffe imaging Ltd, http://www.redcliffe.co.uk

i used the Phototex self adhesive and repositionable which was bit more expensive but it was super easy to install so cleaner & quicker than using a wet adhesive.
It was 6480mm w x 1020mm and was printed in 3 drops of about 2200mm wide. On their advise we had no over lap and bleed with the edges matching exactly. Not sure if it was just luck but the edges matched spot on just butted together and was easier to install than expected.
If client will pay the extra then worthwhile in my opinion.

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[Stuart Miller]

Your print went inside James, thanks,

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks guys, both customer & myself pleased. I know what you mean about screw caps Rob. I very rarely use them and usually countersink screws and cover with matching vinyl. However on this i wasn’t sure about countersinking the acrylic as it was the first time I’ve even drilled it and with the other 3D elements the crew caps somehow fit in with the rest of teh design.

[Stuart Miller]

Thanks Jamie.
Wasn’t too sure if the plotter would take it, but I do have some heavier blades for thick security film so will try them.
Cheers