Is the BSGA out of touch?

[Phill Fenton]

Interesting post which expresses views I also share. I do feel the BSGA have a lack of empathy for the many smaller sign business that are out there. This is something I believe they have tried to address but with limited success so far

[Martin Pearson]

I think they have always been out of touch with the smaller businesses, I joined years ago because it seemed to be the right thing to do but in the year I was a member I didn’t see any advantage at all personally. I have never been asked if I have any kind of qualification, my customers were more interested in seeing the work I had produced for other Companies than a piece of paper saying I was qualified. Having said that I do believe that a qualification is generally a good thing, personally I don’t think anyone should enter any business or industry knowing nothing about it 😆
I would like to think they have tried to address the smaller business issues as Phill says he believes they have but as I do very little work these days it’s not something I have really kept up to date with 😆

[David Hammond]

Perhaps they need to try and re-engage the smaller companies, and then they’d get a much more accurate representation of what the industry needs & wants.

As I say in the opening post, I’d welcome David, or anyone from BSGA to comment on this.

[Stephen Morriss]

I have to agree, I’ve never bothered with membership and I don’t have any specific sign qualifications, it is just a manufacturing process covered by other qualifications, for instance I have engineering qualifications from my time as an engineer, I’ve now been a sign maker for over 16 years so longer than I was an engineer, the practical applications of an engineering background have been far more relevant for manufacturing and fitting signs than any other qualification I can think of and like you said a small employer can soon weed out people with a few simple trials, and let’s face it, it only takes a little bit of training followed by assisting a competent fitter to fit vinyl to signs and vehicles. After that you have more specialist training such as vehicle wrapping etc.

Steve

[Stuart Miller]

I have tried being a member as after talking to David Catanach at a trade show I was led into believing they would help and support the small business.
In particular even though I have an engineering background (BSc) I have never worked as an engineer and was interested in how one could make sure your signs could be safe and how to calculate the strength of supports and attachments.
This was an area the BSGA was pushing to make sure individuals would not be liable to prosecution.
So I thought I would try their support and after being a member for a couple of years I am about to cancel the mebership as I have found far more help on this forum than the BSGA haver ever given.

As several may have noticed I have asked about peoples views on sign safety a couple of times over the years and contacted the BSGA at the same time.
The BSGA did put me in touch with an engineer who has his own design business and is a tech advisor for them. I sent all the details for a small projecting sign, the type we all put up every day without thinking, as a bit of a test to see what they thought we should be submitting as an technical construction sign. the enfgineer did send me areport that was so complicated that only another engineer would understand it and was way above my level of comprehension. It would be impossible for me to undertake such a report for every sign I supply. I then contacted a structural engineer who said he had necer heard of such reports for such small signs but that for hime to produce would cost in the region of £300 minimum. This would basically make a smallprojecting sign unviable in terms of cost and time for such a report.
So basically it would seem that the BSGA association is not in tune with how we operate as small one man businesses.

The BSGA also suggested that the manufacturer of signs bought in should be able to supply their technical construction files and strengths. When I have asked a few suppliers for such information a couple laughed and jsut said they were strong enough for the job.
the best and most indformative reply was this
"No one in the real world gets an engineer to calculate small sign installations and I have never seen or heard of this being done. Any practical person can assess if the strength of a projecting or swing sign is satisfactory by firstly using large enough bolts. M8 or M10 are fine for a
700 x 750 sign if the bolt is high tensile M10 or 12 if mild steel coach bolts are used. And if the bolts can be tightened reasonably without going round and round the fixing is sound. If the wall is made of good quality bricks use shield anchors but these are difficult to get right. the manufacturer will specify the drill bit size but you must not drill the hole using this size bit or the hole will be to large. Drill the hole with smaller bit and then use the correct size bit to ream the hole out. You need to blow the hole out with air to make sure no dust is in the hole (bike pump can be used) or this dust will get in the threads. The Rawl bolt website give details of how to use them but sign fitters don’t bang the anchor in with a hammer they attach the anchors to the bolts and press the bracket and bolts in to the wall as one component. If the wall is made of less than sound materials as a lot of older properties are in your area use chemical fixings following the manufacturers instruction, but it is best to end up with a fixing type that allows the bracket to be removed and re fitted for future maintenance etc."

So I think the BSGA could have given me this advice rather than suggesting a course of action which is impossible to follow without emplying a structural engineer.

So after the two ywars i feel I have not really gained much from membership.
AS for NVQs and CSCS cards: as others have said i have never neen asked for quals and customers are more interested ins eeing existing work>
I have a white CSCS card for Construction Related Occupation, which did not require any NVQs and only needed me to attend a safety test. That seems to satisfy any site I have to attend

[Chris Windebank]

HI Stuart, all of the white cards expire in September this year I am led to believe.

I have found a window filming NVQ and there is a signs one apparently but don’t know where.

For now I am applying for the green card which is a one day course as a general labourer just to get over the problem for 130.00, wrong maybe but since lack of knowing where to go its my only choice as I work on large superstores and need this just to get through the door.

[Phill Fenton]

For the BSGA to say they represent the voice of sign makers in Britain is a bit like saying Nicola Sturgeons SNP represent the voice of the Scottish people. Both are a bit misguided :awkward:

[Stuart Miller]

quote Chris Windebank:

HI Stuart, all of the white cards expire in September this year I am led to believe.

I have found a window filming NVQ and there is a signs one apparently but don’t know where.

For now I am applying for the green card which is a one day course as a general labourer just to get over the problem for 130.00, wrong maybe but since lack of knowing where to go its my only choice as I work on large superstores and need this just to get through the door.

I only renewed my card last year and it says expires 2020.So I guess I am lucky for a few years
It does seem they are not supplying these cards anymore but it says nothing about expiring existing cards early.

When i look at the back it says
Window Film, graphics & manefestationsoperative Employer Certified.
Timber Frame Hoarding Installer Employer Certified
Decorative Artist G Co non construction employer Certified

[Chris Windebank]

last time I renewed they only gave me 2 years as
Window Film, graphics & manifestations operative Employer Certified.

Got 200 windows just came in for the weekend, fancy some work?

[Stuart Miller]

On further checking with the CSCS they have said many jobs which used to be on the cheme have ben removed and they now understand that Window Film, manefestations and small vinyl jobs are not covered and that no card is neccessary to atend a site. They have produced a pagfe which explains this, but do acknowledge that some site still insist on a 100% card workforce. The page https://www.cscs.uk.com/news/why-a-100-carded-workforce-isnt-always-100-right/ is as much to explain to site supervisors that it is not necessary to have card.

So it seems we should not actually require acard under the new scheme !

[David Hammond]

Interesting link Stuart.

We had one customer, who did a lot of work on construction sites, when we looked at CSCS cards. The trouble was the client was a pain in the backside to deal with, so we sacked them off. I believe they’ve been sacked off by a few other companies too.

I hoped this post would have opened some dialect with the BSGA and the smaller sign makers, a perfect opportunity to sell themselves to a captive audience, educate us all in what they do for the industry. Perhaps I was just too optimistic. :puppyeyes:

[Steff Davison]

quote David Hammond:

Interesting link Stuart.

We had one customer, who did a lot of work on construction sites, when we looked at CSCS cards. The trouble was the client was a pain in the backside to deal with, so we sacked them off. I believe they’ve been sacked off by a few other companies too.

I hoped this post would have opened some dialect with the BSGA and the smaller sign makers, a perfect opportunity to sell themselves to a captive audience, educate us all in what they do for the industry. Perhaps I was just too optimistic. :puppyeyes:

Well Mr Lambie is a director of the BSGA, so maybe you could ask him?

I looked at the BSGA website, it doesnt really tell me much. After a quick browse I still have no idea of what the benefits of joining would be, or whether I would be eligible.

[Mark Banks]

I personally don’t like all these governing bodies, over the years I have joined various ones and found that I receive very little if any benefit.

[David Hammond]

Quick update –

I had an interesting conversation with Paul France, CEO of Metamark, and also on the PR committee of BSGA.

Following that, he spoke with David at the BSGA and he’s coming out to visit us on Tuesday. I’ve a rough agenda of things we’d like to discuss, but if anyone else has any specific questions they’d like me to put forward, let me know. :thumbsup:

[Craig Brown]

Hi David

Really pleased to hear that you are meeting David from the BSGA – and also pleased to see a supplier (Paul French @ Metamark facilitating the get together).

Just to put a little perspective on it, there are only 2 full time members of staff at the BSGA – others like myself are involved or work within the Sign Industry and give our time freely to the PR, technical and council meetings.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread Rob joined the board at the last AGM, but had been sitting in on technical meetings before that to see what it was all about. The association as it sits now is very different from when I was asked to sit on the technical committee in 2000 – the size of sign businesses represented around the table varies greatly but it isn’t just big boys as seems to be the perception (and one that the association does try to dispel).

Your comments about CSCS cards and not being asked for them rings true with plenty in my own group (Signs Express) but at least half the group need access to some form of construction site every week, so the ability to access training and ultimately a card is very much a cause of concern to them.

Part of the reason we joined the BSGA (BSA at that time) was because we wanted to put something back into the sector we worked in…Just like the BSGA, Sign Franchises have often come under ridicule – I’ve worked in the trade since 1984 and been part of Signs Express Since 1989 so feel I’ve probably just about earned my spurs.

…If I said with the fees we pay and the time I give freely each year to the BSGA, doesn’t see a financial return i doubt anyone could argue (and I’d wage that’s true of all the other people who sit on the various committees)…but with things that crop up and legislation that changes you do need to have someone looking out for the industry we all work in…if you think we are doing it wrong join in and have a voice.

All I can tell you is that the Sign business owners who are involved do far more than they are given credit for and would welcome input from others within our sector, so don’t just look at it as a badge and what you get out of it…look at it more as protecting and enhancing the sector you work in, for the longevity and future of our industry.

Always happy to talk with others so PM me if a phone number is required – have a great weekend and look forward to your feedback after the meeting David

[David Hammond]

Thanks for the reply Craig.

I’ve sat on committee’s in the past and I know the feeling. The article I originally linked too I took great offence to. In essence because we don’t have an NVQ, CSCS card, or are BSGA members we’re ‘cowboys’.

Making such broad statements like that, really isn’t going to do much to help those join. I am no against BSGA, but in my opinion there needs to be significant change to represent the whole industry, not just the members.

[Craig Brown]

Having had plenty of labels stuck on us in the past I do hear what you say and I’m sure David will take that feedback as well…

…with limited budgets, staff and time any Association will have to prioritise what it focuses on…that’s why I was trying to make the point, its not necessarily about looking what you get out of it, but what as a group we can all put back into the industry, and there is a cost to doing that unfortunately (membership fees).

..again express those thoughts and concerns to David, but also think what you might be able to bring to the table too…I’m not trying to be purist here, just realistic…if you want change, you have to get involved, is all I’m saying. :thumbsup:

[David Hammond]

Well we met David today. It’s the first time I’ve met David to speak to, I’ve seen him at the shows etc. I’m a little wiser as to what the BSGA does, and it’s aims for the industry.

They’re very focused on the technical and legal side of things, which we cannot hide from, and we’re probably far better having the BSGA represent us, than having no body at all, and having ill thought legislation forced upon us.

90% of our customers don’t care about the legal/technical side of signage, and just look at the price. The trouble is the customers ignorance doesn’t exonorate us of our responsibilities. If that sign causes an injury, it’s us who will need to explain our actions to the HSE, and blaming the customers budget is no excuse.

David is equally frustrated with the CSCS scenario, as they’re not very good at communicating, letting people know of changes once they’ve implemented them, and as a relatively small industry we’re not top priority for their agenda.

The government scrapping funding for NVQ’s other than for apprentices has reduced uptake. He admits the costs are high, but this is due to the handful of assessors having to travel the length and breadth of the country to conduct assessments, and rarely can they can get a few assessments in the same vicinity at the same time. More people doing the NVQ, would reduce costs.

I explained that we would only consider an NVQ in order to obtain the CSCS card, if we had demand for it. However if there was a more accessible, cheaper, generic manufacturing NVQ more would probably partake. Although at the moment CSCS won’t accept that, as there is a specific trade NVQ.

I suggested that BSGA could provide it’s own accreditation, not connected with the NVQ, or CSCS, but as way to set a standard within the industry.

David openly acknowledges the BSGA isn’t for everyone. Being a member of a trade association may be of interest to some customers, perhaps larger organisations. A bit like being IPAF/PASMA/CHAS/Safe Contractor, these are very important to SOME customers. They do give a little more credibility to your business (they don’t mean you’ll magically be able to do it any better by having them).

The BSGA listens to the voice of it’s members, which forms a tiny proportion of the industry. We’re never going to change anything pushing against it.

It’s a little like H&S and legislation, it’s here to stay, and we’re better embracing it, than resisting, it is here to stay.

[Phill Fenton]

I’ve never heard of a single case of a Garage business being sued when a car has suffered mechanical failure causing injury when still in possession of a valid MOT certificate. This is because the MOT standard specifically states that the vehicle was in roadworthy condition at the time of testing. Any mechanical failures that occur later are not the fault of the MOT station. The MOT tester is effectively absolved of any blame should the vehicle owner neglect to maintain his vehicle to a safe standard. I think we can all agree that this is reasonable and fair.

The BSGA should be lobbying for a similar standard to apply in the case of a sign installation. Effectively absolving the installer of any blame should the owner of the sign fail to ensure it is properly maintained in a safe condition.

Yet for some inexplicable reason, the BSGA appears to support the notion that a sign should be guaranteed for 10 years. Any failure that occurs and causes injury is deemed to be the responsibility of the sign maker and dire warnings are issued to that effect. I do not understand why the BSGA does not strongly oppose this notion instead of embracing it as they seem to? How can a sign business possibly ensure that a sign it installs today is not damaged in some way at a later date, either by the building suffering some form of structural failure due to age, storm damage, or vandalism? It appears to me that the BSGA is scaremongering in order to try and increase it’s membership and It’s examples like this that cause me to question their agenda..

[David Hammond]

I had this chat with David today.

10 years is the default service life if not specified. Easy solution is specify the Service life you’re comfortable with.

When you buy a car, or a £15 kettle, you get an instruction book, telling you how to care for your item.

You try taking a new car back the garage saying it’s broke because it ran out oil and you kept driving it, first thing they’d do flick to the page in the manual, where it says don’t drive it when the oil light comes on.

We are the professionals, we know about signs, we should probably tell the customer who knows nothing about signs, when & how to maintain the sign… if they do not follow the guidance, it is their responsibility.

With or without the BSGA these legislations are here to stay.

[Phill Fenton]

We might know about signs, but that doesn’t extend to being experts on buildings. Some old buildings are falling apart but the owners still want us to put signs on them. Are we to become structural surveyors to determine whether or not the rotten fascia on an old shop front will last another 10 years without falling down? This is the problem I have, we live in the real world not the idealised version that the BSGA would have you believe we live in..

[David Hammond]

I asked David this again.

We can tell if a wooden fascia is rotten, and advise against installing it, and they are to replace the fascia.

If they choose not too, they sign a waiver. No longer our problem.

If the building fails, not the sign or fixings, they we’re in the clear. The building owner will have to explain why it happened.

If a sign fails, and you used the right fixings, can justify why it was installed in that way, you’re in the clear.

Where there’s a blame there’s a claim. It’s just a game of shiftinf blame to someone else.

One thing BSGA are working on at the moment is HSE doing spot checks, condemning CE marked routers, and insiting on cages, or pressure pads being indstalled around the machine as a kill swich to prevent injuries… this is on a perfectly legal machine.

A bit like your car passing the MOT, but then being told you need two bew tyres because they’ve got 6mm of tread.

[Phill Fenton]

quote David Hammond:

One thing BSGA are working on at the moment is HSE doing spot checks, condemning CE marked routers, and insiting on cages, or pressure pads being indstalled around the machine as a kill swich to prevent injuries… this is on a perfectly legal machine.

Hopefully you mean the BSGA are opposing HSE’s actions and not encouraging the buggers?.. :awkward:

[David Hammond]

Yes they are. Trouble is trying to find the person(s) responsible within the HSE to argue our case with.

Without the BSGA we’d be on our own, HSE can walk in and enforce that on you. At least with the BSGA they can fight the corner, and hopefully have a louder voice.

[David Hammond]

By chance we’ve had a contractor out today to repair our sectional door. Two engineers rocked up, and despite it being an easy fix, before they even took their toolbox from the van they did a quick risk assessment, had us sign it, and then cracked on with a 10min fix.

I passed comment about how our customers would have a fit if we did this, and he was genuinely surprised. Every single job they visit this is the first thing they do.

Putting the NVQ & CSCS cards aside, perhaps we are behind the curve with regards to H&S? It’s almost a secondary thought, where in most other industries it’s their first consideration.

Regardless the HSE, and H&S is here to stay, and it’s useless trying to find ways around it. It’s proven ignorance isn’t a valid excuse. Lots of us attend courses to learn to wrap vehicles, but how many would attend a course about H&S specifically about the sign industry?

[Kevin Flowers]

Think there is a little bit of blurring the lines, a router can be CE approved, however when it is placed in a premises it may well need extra guarding which is determined by a risk assessment.This relates to safe distance around the machine, entrapment from moving parts again relates to space and finally guarding to stop people putting fingers etc into rotating parts or broken bits being fired out.
So if HSE decides that it is the case it won’t matter who argues for you because even if you won who is going to cover you for any future accidents because i’m sure BSGA isn’t going to, your insurance company won’t because you have gone against advice of the HSE. The machine will still be CE approved it just won’t meet the safety standard required within your premises.
On a second note we are talking about getting up to date with Risk Assessments & Method Statements when going to customers premises, but then talking about arguing about the HSE ensuring safety is met in our own workshops. CNC machines do not require up close monitoring if set up correctly, however if you are standing beside a machine & you see something going wrong impulse makes you automatically reach to correct, unfortunately without safety systems in place accidents then happen.

This is just playing devils advocate because its easy to dismiss safety when its our own safety at risk

Kev

[David Hammond]

Thanks for the reply Kev.

We don’t run a router so can only go off what I was told when I met David. What you say makes perfect sense. I’m sure some machines are crammed into premises, with little thought to h&s.

Our xerox engineers sometimes have a moan because by the book it should be 2ft away from the wall so they can access the rear, without moving the machine. Yet the company who installed it stuck it where it is now against the wall. It’s a fair comment, why should a single engineer risk pulling his back moving the machine?

You mention insurance, assuming you have it, if there is a accident they’re going to side with HSE, and usually find someway to get out of a payout.

Is it BSGA scaremongering, or do the majority of us muddle our way through doing only the minimum required?

[Stuart Miller]

quote David Hammond:

I had this chat with David today.

10 years is the default service life if not specified. Easy solution is specify the Service life you’re comfortable with.

When you buy a car, or a £15 kettle, you get an instruction book, telling you how to care for your item.

You try taking a new car back the garage saying it’s broke because it ran out oil and you kept driving it, first thing they’d do flick to the page in the manual, where it says don’t drive it when the oil light comes on.

We are the professionals, we know about signs, we should probably tell the customer who knows nothing about signs, when & how to maintain the sign… if they do not follow the guidance, it is their responsibility.

With or without the BSGA these legislations are here to stay.

Ihad this query when I joined and it made me update my T&Cs.
I now say I will only warranty a sign for 6 months and that regular maintenance inspections should be arranged.
Not sure anyone reads the T&Cs but its in there and I have never had a query for a maintenace inspectyion yet !

[David Hammond]

We’ve a similar clause in our T&C’s.

However warranty & service life are separate things. As David from BSGA said, how can we expect a customer to maintain their sign, if we don’t tell them how?

I’ve an idea, which I’m working on so watch this space. :thumbsup: