[Steff Davison]

Thanks for that link David, a bit late in the year, but I shall glean some useful information from the site.

I would consider travelling to Europe to attend the right show if there was something sooner.

sigh….. I’ve just missed the label and packaging show which was the beginning of March…

[Steff Davison]

For those who have attended FESPA, are there exhibitors showing narrow web digital press solutions or is it wide and super wide kit?

Regards
Steff

[Steff Davison]

quote Chris Wilson:

I think personally your offering someone a chance to buy into a well established business, taking a huge amount of risk out of there investment, with the flexibility of that investment growing. If I was to be that partner though i would need some sort of re-assurance that am not going to be left on my own, personally that’s why I would go down the apprentice route. I don’t know what English law is like but I look up here the other day and for someone leaving school you £3 something an hour (I was on £600 a month when I started in this trade). The safety net to this is if 3 months down the line your find there just standing around doing nothing you can cut them loose (harsh I know) but you then also have another business partner to bounce ideas off, pick yourselfs back up and try move forward again.

I dont agree with most of the above. They are not investing in an established business, by Michael’s own admission it isnt taking any money. Michael may have an emotional attachment to the equipment he has built up over a period of time, but unless that machinery produces income whats it worth?. He has to prove the business along with the equipment makes money, potential isnt worth very much at all. If we could sell potential we would all be retired.

I dont think taking on staff will work either, staff want to be managed, michael wants to be a silent partner. To hire someone who has the skills to build a business with the machinery you have would cost a fair amount of money, they have to run the business as if it were their own, thats a tough ask. If you could find someone how much would they cost?,£20-25-30K a year plus profit share/bonus?. If it doesnt work out, you are still in the same boat, less the £1000’s you have spent on running it.

IMO if you are ready to walk away from the business and not come back, then sell the machinery at what the market will pay. Clean break then onwards and upwards.

PS I am not interested in buying your equipment, so have no vested interest in my post and point of view.

[Steff Davison]

You have said you are taking on a sales person shortly, that will add cost and more pressure on getting more work out. Which may eat into most of your planned price increases. I know you work hard, but working hard isnt the same as working efficiently.

If you are not careful you will be a busier company in the same position as you are in now.

Good luck

[Steff Davison]

quote Martin Lemiesz:

In principle, this is the solution but he’s in only 4h per day and he’s methods are rather inefficient/old 🙁

IMO theres your problem, inefficient production, if you are doing your job right, even at 25-30% behind your local market you should be able to accumulate cash, how much would depend on how low your local market rate is, and your level of turnover.

Sounds as though the tail is wagging the dog.

Make more things for the same cost.

If your turnover hadnt suffered with your recent price increases then looking at increasing prices would be the obvious course of action, but I would be cautious at this stage of giving away turnover and cash flow.

Unless you are in the S**T!! and haemorrhaging money

[Steff Davison]

quote David Hammond:

You’re working 16hr days, and making no money?

If you’ve enough work to fill a 16hr day, I would suspect your not charging enough.

I’ve had many discussions about this (Steff will agree 😆 😆 ) In my opinion work out your overheads and go from there.

Or your production processes might not be efficient enough. Your machinery may be too slow, you may have too much waste, jobs messing up etc

If your current staff could send out an extra 20% in volume of goods in the same amount of time (still charging the same per order) what difference would that make to your profitability?

[Steff Davison]

Or you could double your prices and maybe only work 2 days a week…… I am being flippant, but only to emphasise a different point of view

This is only my humble opinion…..

Keep growing your turnover , if that means long hours, if it means sacrificing some margin… well thats the cost of building a business. When your business is producing good positive cash flow, and you are building up capital reserves then move your prices up.

It does however depend on what impact your currently pricing policy has on your ability to remain in business and pay your bills.

[Steff Davison]

quote Martin Lemiesz:

My business is almost 2 years old now – we have achieved some fantastic things over that time and completed a lot of jobs but still can’t see much money in the bank – theory was to start with reasonable but low prices for the first year to gain some clients – I have been slowly increasing prices in year 2. The feedback we get + some research tells me that we are still 20% -30% cheaper than other local companies but more often these days we get clients who say we are too expensive…#confused – shall I share some prices per m2 with you to see where I’m going wrong?

My opinion is that your turnover isnt high enough for the margins you are selling at. Either move up price points or turnover (with minimal added cost). Preferably do both. Profit percentages etc dont mean much unless they are attached to a figure.

Also if you can shave off some more cost WITHOUT compromising on quality then, as the saying goes, a penny saved is a penny earnt.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

quote Jean Oakley:

Quick question

I have this week printed (off google) a Bob the Builder logo for a local company. They have had previously one on the bonnet of their vans for 15 years (not by me) So if they got pulled up on it and lets face it its a very sad world we live in if people have nothing better to do would he be done for displaying it or would i be done for printing it at their request?

If I’m not mistaken.. the short answer is yes. You have produced the image for commercial gain.

[Steff Davison]

Northern Neon Lights Ltd
http://www.northernneon.co.uk/

[Steff Davison]

You need a medium tack paper application tape. Once laser cut, place the acrylic letters in warm soapy water, this will remove acrylic residue and the tape will be easy to remove.

edit
Sorry thought you were enquiring as to which type of tape to cover the acrylic while lasering

[Steff Davison]

Plastics plus ??

http://www.plasticsplus.co.uk/products/Styrene.html

Not dealt with them, but they are on my "find out what they do" list.

[Steff Davison]

quote Peter Wynne:

I’m not saying anyone here is in this position, but what I have seen over the years are lots of people with “ambition” to grow and expand, and they do. They end up with big units and lots of staff working on bigger and bigger projects. But the reality is that they’re personally not making much more money, as all the extra profit in the big projects they’re doing is eaten up by everything else (wages, equipment, stock, tax, etc…)

Do whatever’s right for you 🙂

I am doing better now than when I started from my bedroom with next to zero expenses. But no one is "bomb proof" I could lose the lot in a fraction of the time it took me to build it. I try and stick to what I know, but take the odd small step into the unknown.

[Steff Davison]

quote David Hammond:

quote Steff Davison:

Its horses for courses, working from home will mean you can never really scale.

To grow past a certain size you have to move into space, you have to have employees and all the over head that goes with it.

Its whatever works for you and the life style you have chosen, one isnt more or less “legitimate” than the other

I started from a 9ft x7ft bedroom, was I a “beer money” trader? everyone has to start somewhere.

Which is the difference between ‘beer token’ set ups, who are happy to make a few £££ in the back pocket, whilst others like yourself, had an ambition, and I would assume charged accordingly to enable the expansion you’ve seen?

I read in a book many years ago, that low overheads are the companies benefit, not the customers :thumbsup:

I actually had to expand/move so that I was in a position to be able to work for less margin through increased turnover.
My market place is a really tough one (arent they all) and staying where I was I would have eventually been priced out by bigger more aggressive and efficient competitors.

My way of looking at lower percentage overheads is, everybody wins me and my customers. Although I am not a bespoke signmaker, I still believe the same principles apply. If you have lower costs why not use them to your advantage, keep some and pass some on. Just make sure you keep enough so that you can pay your increased costs when you do eventually need to move because you have run out of space.

Thats why I dont like the software pricing stuff, it builds too much cost into your product IMO. Profit margins dont mean "diddly" unless they are attached to a figure.

[Steff Davison]

Its horses for courses, working from home will mean you can never really scale.

To grow past a certain size you have to move into space, you have to have employees and all the over head that goes with it.

Its whatever works for you and the life style you have chosen, one isnt more or less "legitimate" than the other

I started from a 9ft x7ft bedroom, was I a "beer money" trader? everyone has to start somewhere.

[Steff Davison]

Best of luck with your new business.

Steff :smiles:

[Steff Davison]

I have the JC vision system on this machine, I dont have a flatbed at the moment, but its sort of "future proof" if I decide to print rigid material or heavier card stock.

Currently I mainly print soft vinyl, which I will cut on my Summas and then "float" onto cut acrylic shapes, but I like the idea of printing on a flatbed then cutting direct onto the Trotec with the camera malarkey, it just depends on the economics of it as to which direction I decide to move next.

[Steff Davison]

Well its taken a while with moving premises and xmas etc but ordered a Trotec Speedy 400 today.

Looked at Grafityp, GCC kit decent people however decided the Speedy was the best fit for what I wanted,

All Ive got to do now is work out how to make it pay 😆

[Steff Davison]

I have 3 lightbar Roland machines, I have had 1 new head on the very first one I bought, of the other 2 RF’s 1 is 10 months old and the other about 8 weeks old.

I havent noticed any deterioration of print quality on the older machine due to any print head issues. My machines are running 8 plus hours a day so ink is moving through the system. I do have a more regimented cleaning system, I clean the capping station after every 100-150 meters of media.

The RF’s seem more robust than the VSi machines, I personally believe that the lack of pinch wheels on the print and cut machine doesnt help with head strikes. But that opinion isnt based on anything other than using the 2 types of machine.

[Steff Davison]

Yeah aint life glamorous, worked till 9pm last night and in here at 7.30 am this morning. Its not what I envisaged when I started this business, not exactly cocktails by the pool is it!

Best wishes all for the coming year.

[Steff Davison]

The latest generation of latex machines look very impressive, I think thats another reason Roland are moving the price point of their solvent inks down. IMO they need to compete more on production price points.

HP seem to be resolving certain issues they had with earlier models, the colours from the 570 looked much more vibrant than those produced on the 360

If I was starting out again with choosing a print system I would give the new latex HP machines much more consideration.

There again I would probably be too nervous to spend £20k plus on my first machine. And I think I would be disappointed with the 3 series.

[Steff Davison]

Price correction….

Asking £400.

[Steff Davison]

I think that some people can confuse your willingness to provide great customer service with being a "soft touch". Who in their right mind can expect to send in a new job for a bespoke printing service and expect the item finished and delivered back within an hour??

In the "hour" scenario someone is a k***b, and I dont think its you.

[Steff Davison]

I dont know what your labour cost is but based on £30/hr I would be looking at £750 ish plus the cost of whatever graphics etc that were installed.

Ive factored in waiting for 3 months before I see any money as well.

"It costs what it costs" …I would imagine a larger concern would be charging £1000++

[Steff Davison]

All the components are important, the tools are there to help you produce consistent quality results. They are also there to help you save time. I dont know your circumstances in any detail but I presume that you are going to produce graphics for boats.

Everybody has to start somewhere, from what you have said maybe it would be safer to get someone to cut your vinyl for you to start with, then you have saved maybe £2,000 on your setup. If things work out then look to invest in some kit and software.

At the stage you are at, sales are much more important than owning a cutter. You have a relationship with a man who has the equipment already.

Good luck

[Steff Davison]

MDP

APS : https://allprint.co.uk

[Steff Davison]

Why not go with the Flexi Sign cloud package, just pay a monthly rental? You can use a package which matches your business and it can grow as you grow. Flexi is also sold in the UK by the same company which distributes Graphtec machines.

As for the price of the Graphtec machine, its worth to you what its worth to you. You need a reliable machine which will produce consistent quality results, Graphtec have a good reputation within the industry.
Get a good demo from the seller before you buy it. A new blade with the cutter shouldnt be the deal clincher, blades are frumpence each.

When I bought my first used cutter my thinking was "If I can get 6 months profitable use out of it I’ll be happy." I got 3 years out of it before it died, I got my money back in the first 2 months.

[Steff Davison]

I would develop my website before I thought about marketing it.

The internet is very good at finding the type of customer you are looking for, but that potential customer will want to see much more information/story about you than you currently offer. Facebook / Adwords are the top tier of the sales funnel. You will waste too much money using these marketing tools unless you sort out your website.

At the very least you need a call to action on your facebook page….eg contact us today to receive a ………….. (insert whatever you think will bring in some inquiries.) whether its 25% off art work…x off fitting, buy a xxx get a xxxx half price!!

They need a reason to contact you now.

Thats my opinion anyway.

[Steff Davison]

We need to move the Roland downstairs, so it needs to come off its base as well as locking the print head etc. I never thought about Granthams, and Ive heard nothing but good about them.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Steff Davison]

If you are running graphic intense programmes I think you need minimum 16gig RAM a couple of SSHD drives as well as a big storage hard drive.

Photo shop needs plenty of processing power, preferably Intel.

[Steff Davison]

Hi. I have 2 RF640’s they are good workhorses, although I can only compare against the Roland VSi540 which isnt really the right machine for some of the volume work that I do. Ive had my first RF about 6 months it works about 10-12 hours a day 7 days a week, no real issues with it. The second machine just over a week. I am aware that Roland are moving to a different print head and ink formulation apparently, but I know exactly what I’m getting with the RF machines.

I dont really think you can get much for the same £1000 per production meter per hour than these. I like mine.

Good luck
Steff

[Steff Davison]

quote Daniel Evans:

Thanks Steph,

I’ve currently got a unit but it’s got no vehicle access and I’ve out grown it, i personally can’t justify spending that amount on a unit and risk losing it when I have a business that works.

I’ve been searching for what seems like forever and nothing is affordable. On this basis I spoke with a old school friends father who has a unit he is willing to sublet, very messy and cold but does have space and vehicle access, room for my equipment and hopefully a large table, I’m also not allowed to put any signage up to say I’m there or allow customers to visit. On this basis I would have to keep my current unit as a office for post, client visits etc and use the other unit for production, seems like a right pain to me but I can’t see how else I can progress.

Good news is I can tidy the place up, well my half and it’s got a drop down thing that would keep the warmth in once heated. I can’t really control the heat as it would be with a space heater it it’s a start although I’m just not sure.

When I first moved one of the main things I thought about was how much will I be missing if I stay as I am. I didnt look on the move as added overhead (I still had a budget to work within) as much as, what can I do with much more room. It was a sort of stepping stone if you like. If that first move had been my final destination then maybe I would have stayed where I was and waited a bit longer. In my mind it was just a temporary means to get to where I wanted to be.

I did, however, make sure I could "walk away" from the building after 12 months if it didnt work out.

Only you know what is right for you and your business, good luck

[Steff Davison]

quote Daniel Evans:

Wow, I looked at a unit last month and that was 21,000plus vat plus business rates for 1600sq ft, god knows how people make that first leap into a commercial unit with vehicle access

Its not easy by any means, on my first move what I had in my mind and what I actually got where two different things. I had a budget to work to and all the units I saw which fitted my perfect unit were too expensive.

I had to compromise, and found a first floor unit (I wanted ground floor) that was primarily big enough to make what I was already doing easier and gave me some room to try new things. If I had waited for my perfect unit I may have eventually got it, but I would probably be 2 years behind where I am now. Rent a smaller unit, shabbier unit, share a unit, a unit that’s 5/10 miles further away than you might have wanted.

I think the worst scenario is "do nothing" if you are doing nothing have a good reason as to why!

[Steff Davison]

I started in a room which was about 7ft x 6ft, one of the best early decisions I made was to move into commercial premises as soon as I could afford to. As James has said, nothing like a bit of overhead to keep you motivated and chasing more sales.

Im just about to make my 3rd move into 5,000sq ft it gets easier as you gain momentum

Once you get settled you will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about. Best of luck.

[Steff Davison]

Best left alone.

[Steff Davison]

http://bonwyke.co.uk/

[Steff Davison]

Bonwykes stock a wide range of this type of film.

[Steff Davison]

I have a versacamm its a good machine. I chose 4 colour, which prints slightly faster than 6 colour. There are more options such as white and metallic inks, the machine is much slower with these options but you have a better chance of obtaining premium price points and producing products which the lower price point printers cant. The versacamm will never compete with a small production printer anyway IMO

Its a big step to take but when you have to make it pay you just do what you have to do, for me it was the best decision I made for my business up to that point.

Good luck.

[Steff Davison]

Hi Michael I started just over 3 years ago working from my bedroom. I now employ 13 staff, although I am very fortunate not to have been faced with the challenges you have had to deal with.

I knew fairly early on in the development of my business, that it would be impossible to grow to a decent size working on my own. Growing my business has enabled me to allocate "headaches" to another member of the team. It costs me more to operate, and there were times I wondered if I was doing the right thing. I took on extra staff maybe a little sooner than my business needed them, but to date its worked out fine for me. Having staff has freed me to concentrate on growing rather than being bogged down by administrating my business.

I think you need to bring in someone to take the workload off yourself, give it 6 months to see how it develops (I think your kit will be worth the same in 6 months time as it is now). If you only break even after 6 months at least you will have had the time to make more of an informed decision on where your life should go.

I wish you and your family the very best.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

I would ask the supplier of the machine to send out an engineer to diagnose the problem.

Is it a brand new 24 hour old machine or a refurbed/reconditioned 24 hour old machine?

One of the reason for purchasing from a dealer is the "peace of mind" they provide by way of support IMO.

[Steff Davison]

quote Hugh Potter:

Thanks Steff,

that makes sense to compensate for the distortion… I’ll look into it more.

I’ve never heard of summa cut server – or is that the job editor within onyx? The patch is for onyx by the looks of it, so i’m inclined to think it’s the onyx cut server?

Sorry to sound dumb – onyx is all new to me!

Cut server is available for all OPUS eye Summa cutters as far as I am aware. We use cut server alongside Flexi, I am sure it works with other RIP’s too. Art systems will be able to advise you as they distribute both HP latex machines and Summa kit as well. Oh and also Onyx (which I presume you are running looking at your machine combination).

If you are using onyx RIP, cut server integrates into your workflow much better than with flexi and is extremely easy to use

[Steff Davison]

Here is the link which describes the issue;

ftp://ftp.onyxgfx.com/TechSupport/White … _Patch.pdf

---

Attachments:

Summa_Changes_for_101_Cutting_Patch.pdf

[Steff Davison]

quote Hugh Potter:

having run a straight edge along the bottom registration line, I can see that it bows inwards by up to 2mm in places along it’s length, this is with reduced heat from 105 to 92°c, will cut it for the sake of seeing how much better it is.

how low can I take the curing temp before it’s risking ink coming out wet?

thanks again
Hugh

Which is why you need to use Summa cut server, it has features which are specifically designed to deal with this scenario. The Opus eye measures the distortion along the width of the print job and compensates for it

I cant find the documentation which explains this, I’m sure Art Systems will be able to help.

[Steff Davison]

I dont use Latex ink but when I set up cut server with my Summa I can remember reading in the documentation about setting up registration for print specifically from latex printers. In some instances the media bows in the middle due to the heat when curing. I think you need to set up XY registration from what I can remember and also on longer print jobs sending panels through in a different way. Cant remember the specifics but its all there in Summa Cut documentation.

Hope that helps.

[Steff Davison]

I have had a similar decision to make recently, I work from 1200 sq ft but the majority of that space is 1st floor which is a pain when thinking about adding new production and in particular machinery.

I sell online and my product ranges are targeted at retail customers, I thought that moving to larger retail space would be the best way to move forward. putting a "shop front" on my production setup and expanding some product ranges that dont work online because of unworkable price points etc.

To cut a long story short, for me, retail space was too expensive to put production machinery in as well as the added cost of servicing retail customers.

From how I understand things, sign making is a reputation business, the capabilities and expertise of the management is what drives the business. Having low cost production space is more valuable than a high street location which may only target a very small percentage of your market.

IMO the general public dont appreciate or care if you can make beautiful bespoke signage- they write happy 50th birthday on a bed sheet with a marker pen then cable tie it to railings and spend the saving they’ve made on extra prawn vol au vents"

[Steff Davison]

:yikes:

[Steff Davison]

It sounds as if you need to seriously consider a new supplier. I cant see how that sort of price rise can be justified.

[Steff Davison]

quote Robert Lambie:

quote Steff Davison:

Well I look at it this way, its not the customers fault I cant do my job properly. If I make an error I pay the price, I wont be making the same mistake again in a hurry. I would tell the customer I had made a mistake though, but I would still stand by the price I had quoted.

If they bought more in the future at the correct price, then good. If I never see them again, well tough, move on.

I agree with you if this was a tin of beans off the shelf, but not if the following:

* Survey and quote the job incurring labour cost
* Design the job – incur labour costs
* Outsource the materials from a trade supplier and pay them.
* Create the graphics and apply them to the job. incur labour costs.
* travel on site and install the job. incurring fuel and labour costs.

Receive payment for the whole experiences half the price?

remember this is a one man band business, It is all very admirable swallowing some costs based on our own stupidity but we are in business to make money and
completely wasting our time on a customer that you may never see future business from and still going ahead and doing a job at a huge loss its not in my view very clever. I just see it better to eat humble pie, explain your mistake, tell them the revised cost and hope they go with it. if they dont, then so be it… a lesson learned.

I really dont see that it makes any difference, so costs have been incurred, thats part of the business. He’s not losing all his money, he will get some back, but he wont get back what hes paid out. He will have to swallow the time…its just tough. No one paid me when I started out working 10 plus hours a day for next to nothing, so why should it be different in this instance?

Everyones opinion may differ, but I put more value on my reputation than I do on a couple of hundred pounds.

[Steff Davison]

quote Phill Fenton:

quote Steff Davison:

Well I look at it this way, its not the customers fault I cant do my job properly. If I make an error I pay the price, I would still stand by the price I had quoted.

The problem is you are educating the customer to expect lower prices which is bad for the industry as it makes the rest of us look like robbing b@stards :blushing: 😆 😆

I dont agree, Ive told the customer Ive made a big mistake ( if they want to cancel I wont complain) if they come back for the same, similar, job they pay more.

Your scenario, " dear customer, I made a mistake on the price so you will have to pay another £1-200 on what I quoted, I know its not your fault but take it or leave it!" I dont think thats very professional at all.

[Steff Davison]

quote Robert Lambie:

quote Steff Davison:

If I had to go the trade supplier route I would take “a pill” on the job I wouldnt ask the customer for more money once I had quoted. Its just a part of learning your trade IMO.

If making slightly less money than wanted due to calculation error or making a mistake during production and having to swallow the cost then yes, something we all have to do and live with from time to time. but to calculate the job completely wrong to the point you make zero money, does not make sense unless you can recoup the costs quickly and is guaranteed on future work. Even if I did, i would clearly tell the customer of my error because getting your pricing wrong from the off is the worst thing you can do. Imagine the position in a few weeks time with the next job and it costs much more, the customer will question you on it and what do you say then?
“eh yeh sorry i got the price completely wrong this is the new one :awkward: ”
it is here he gets to make the decision that he could have been given the choice of first time round.

It is easy to win jobs based on price… but try increase prices with a customer base you have built and you will find it much more difficult.

Well I look at it this way, its not the customers fault I cant do my job properly. If I make an error I pay the price, I wont be making the same mistake again in a hurry. I would tell the customer I had made a mistake though, but I would still stand by the price I had quoted.

If they bought more in the future at the correct price, then good. If I never see them again, well tough, move on.

[Steff Davison]

You said you could print this job yourself, thats what I would do. White translucent film isnt that expensive (general sign wholesaler) and you can buy just what you need.

If I had to go the trade supplier route I would take "a pill" on the job I wouldnt ask the customer for more money once I had quoted. Its just a part of learning your trade IMO.

[Steff Davison]

I think there is too much detail, its 20cm x 20cm !.

If I had to do it, then I would probably clean out some of the really small weed stuff by deleting it from the image before I cut it.

Its just gonna be a slow weed to get right. Maybe turn the pressure down a bit and cut speed too, if its a brand new blade maybe 60-65.

Print it now laminate it in the morning.

Rather you than me, good luck.

[Steff Davison]

quote Kevin Flowers:

David
i charged £25 per 610 linear meter weeded & taped, if it was say a load of 150mm WWW addresses then i added a surcharge as required to cover my costs. Some will say its too dear & some won’t but it goes back to knowing what you need to earn & some jobs need to to earn a high profit because they are taking you away from jobs that you could be doing earning an equivalent profit

Kev

Well that makes me look like "Low Ball Lola" at 3/4 x lol (some I get a bit more). However in my defense I do have to compete with the Chinese and I do send out around a 1000 running meters a week. I suppose it what works for you.

[Steff Davison]

quote David Hammond:

The software’s crap at pricing vinyl jobs. Print job’s it’s fairly good at (with a little persuasion at times)

As you say van’s are ok as were typically talking £150+ for a van, and the majority of the job is labour, so there’s plenty to cover ourselves with.

We get asked for supply only vinyl, or the occasional small cut vinyl sign, and its these that can be problematic.

Always struggle when I know what we’re paying per M of vinyl, trying to mark it up, feel’s really cheeky sometimes.

Just having a read of some older threads……

I started my business with small supply only vinyl work, you NEED minimum 4/5x media cost including app tape. However this multiple will vary as the base cost of your media rises. Supply only work is a totally different business in many ways to how I think you currently work.
You cant earn if you dont have really efficient production methods, if the job is only £10 the most you can possibly earn is £10 trouble is you can lose £20 making it (all your costs included)

[Steff Davison]

quote Warren Beard:

Speak to Nigel at Grafityp, they sell lasers and have the added benefit of a good back up service and support. We bought ours from them and have had good service from them over the last few years.

Thanks for that, spoken to Nigel, will be going to have a look this next week.

[Steff Davison]

David,

If I am able to send PM’s in the future I will send you an example with pleasure

You have said previously " you put the material cost in… then add the profit margin you want…. and it works it all out for you" or words to that effect.

You have also mentioned about machinery depreciation costs and costing in a proportion to each job, its adding cost

The way I look at depreciation is this; Whatever I have paid for the machine once I have it installed its worth half of what it was worth the day before it was delivered, so it better get working. The machine is a consumable, its only job is to generate positive cash flow by making stuff. There are many other factors that go into the equation but thats my basic principle. The customer doesnt pay for the depreciation, the customer pays for the machine, my job is to get the customer to buy what the machine produces, the more he buys the quicker he pays for the machine. I dont care what the value of it is once its made me back my money and the profit I want, any residual value is a bonus.

My business is different to yours David, my customers buy what I produce rather than me producing to their specification. Maybe we should do the exercise the other way round and see where I am pricing with your business model.

[Steff Davison]

David

I just think that Clarity adds in too much cost from what you have said in previous posts. I also think it can make you too reliant on a computer program to run your business. I run my business a different way, I dont want a computer program telling me what I should sell something for, I believe it breeds inefficiency. I know what the market I sell in can stand price wise, its my job to reduce costs /increase production so I can improve the margin to continue either selling in that market, or knowing when its time to move on.

I just get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the software is pricing up your work but it pays no attention to your turnover only your "break even " point .

I think all the job/order processing stuff is fantastic, but only because that bit makes your business more efficient in many different ways.

I wish you continued success.

[Steff Davison]

Tradesman at work.

I think this highlights why some experienced tradesmen can price at the price points they do, that clarity software malarkey would have costed out the fitting for that job at £100’s if you estimated fitting time at 3-5 hours. Seems to me as though clarity wants your customer to pay for your inefficiency ( No insult intended!, just something to consider)

[Steff Davison]

How did your enquiries go?

I am looking at adding laser etching/cutting to my product range. Its seems to be a complicated business made to sound easy. Looking at Trotec speedy but can’t find much info on Gravograph kit. Thinking about a 60/80 watt machine. Need a machine that can get through work and produce quality results. UK service and backup also high up on wish list.

Anyone any other suggestions?

[Steff Davison]

Further to this post, I have been looking at a few different van graphics designs and quite a few displayed telephone numbers of different sizes, depending on where on the van they were placed(they all looked like good professional work from reputable companies).

I think this post was originally concerned with methods of "aligning" graphics onto vans rather than the OP’s design skills, he didnt ask for a critique of his work.

[Steff Davison]

quote Martin Cole:

quote Steff Davison:

I appreciate your constructive advise, it just doesnt make sense though…why would he do two instals on the same van.?

Just an observation.

Steff,

Top one is the one Dave actually did and the one underneath is Rob’s photoshoped alternative version :bigsmile:

Nice job Rob,

😆 Yeah Ive changed my mind, good one Rob !

[Steff Davison]

I appreciate your constructive advise, it just doesnt make sense though…why would he do two instals on the same van.?

Just an observation.

[Steff Davison]

I thought they were "mock ups" on the van, not actual finished work.

I’m sure Mr Rogers knows what he’s doing

[Steff Davison]

quote Rich Cooper:

Thanks again for the replies everyone.

im hoping to hear back from the guy today, ive just deleted the whole job and started from scratch again and the file still imports the same as the print, there has definitley been some changes made from the design process to me receiving the files.

i think i will be printing samples this time too.

Would you charge the guy again for re-doing the work?

That would depend on how valuable the client was to you, but you have done nothing wrong, you did the job asked of you.
If I was not bothered about any further work from them I would ask them to pay me and get someone else to do the work.

[Steff Davison]

I use Flexi sign with Roland machines. Much more control of the print job with Flexi including profiling etc.

My main reason for swapping from Versaworks to Flexi is that Versaworks doesnt support Opus barcode server which enables me to send print jobs which are automatically cut on my Summa with very little input from the operator, major production boost.

I started with flexi software when I bought my first Summa so it wasnt a major learning curve with the UI although Flexi allows you to change the interface to other software UI’s you may be used to.

Another bonus is that I use the cloud based version which keeps me right up to date and means I’m not tying up money by buying the programme outright.

[Steff Davison]

It sounds like kit for a trade breaker. I wouldnt want it even if it was free, I imagine it will suck up hours of my life with various problems etc etc and slowly relieve me of cash into the bargain.

[Steff Davison]

We use a man with a trailer £50 a load, fits about 40-50 bin bags. Cardboard we have collected free from a recycling company (think we pay a small charge for the collection cage- which we dont use cos its too small.)

[Steff Davison]

Agree with Neil, drop shipping is a poor online business model IMO.

Invest in stock where you are sure of its quality and distribute direct to your customers. Should be better margin and less customer problems.

Good luck

[Steff Davison]

If they want supply only van graphics then they are price shoppers IMO so you will struggle against the "value offer" type sign people.
I would have a "value" range and service for price shoppers, one that doesn’t tie up your time otherwise your computer will have a fit and tell you you are losing thousands a week etc.

[Steff Davison]

Metamark series 7 isnt that expensive that I would be worried about losing the odd meter, especially as you have factored in so many other costs that make up your total job.The real profit is in the application as far as I understand things. If, for example, the job is worth £150 finished then an extra £3-£10 in vinyl cost isnt going to push you into the red. And if you are out £20-£30 on that size van you will know for next time.

I think that you may be relying too much on software to do , what is in my opinion, your job.

Sometimes the brain is mightier than the software programme. 🙂

[Steff Davison]

I would talk to the people you purchased the machine from, I’m sure they would want to help.

I had a problem with the software overriding my machine’s settings and the menu command to turn off this override wasnt as intuitive as it should be within Summa Cutter controls.

Thats the only trouble when your machine turns up in a box with a cd and some allen keys, you cant troubleshoot problems with an engineer etc.

[Steff Davison]

+1 For Summa

I have 5 of them, they just keep cutting.

[Steff Davison]

quote Daniel Taylor:

quote Steff Davison:

I would charge £129(including £60 for sub fitter) 50% deposit, balance when fitted. The work is in fitting it, the rest is easy peasey. Its not difficult enough to warrant a premium IMO.

Hi Stef, thanks for that so your at 190 and i actually went in @ 250 .. I think that’s reasonable. Cheers

No, I would charge £129 finished.

I would be interested to know what some of the pricing software comes up with as I havent allowed for depreciation of the machine .

[Steff Davison]

I would charge £129(including £60 for sub fitter) 50% deposit, balance when fitted. The work is in fitting it, the rest is easy peasey. Its not difficult enough to warrant a premium IMO.

[Steff Davison]

Same reason I cant send or receive them, I’ve mentioned this before.

As has been said recently " Its a bit secret squirrel!" maybe you need to be invited into the "square dealers" before you can send or receive messages.

[Steff Davison]

Well I cant send private messages, it must be a man thing!
I will ring you, I think I have your phone number from your website.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Is the Summa still for sale?

[Steff Davison]

Short answer is you wont find one to match your ritrama price.

[Steff Davison]

Yes there are coated digital SA vinyls made especially for pigment inkjet printers but they are expensive compared to solvent media. You have to do the sums to see which best suits you.

[Steff Davison]

There are polymeric "metallic" glitter vinyls about. I dont know what your version of cheap is but it is cheaper than the cast films.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Yes, its a mutoh printer, printed then laminated then put through a Summa cutter. 3 separate pieces of machinery.

If you are producing temporary signage/decals/artwork you may not need to laminate. Are you installing or supply only?

The minimum setup you would need for the type of work I think you want to produce is a solvent ink based printer/ cutter.

[Steff Davison]

Yes its normal, my 2 newer machines both do it. One bang opens the opus eye, the other bang closes it. It is so the opus eye isnt damaged while the machine is cutting.

[Steff Davison]

The head hits the left wall to lift the thingymagig so the opus eye can read registration marks if it needs to. Im sure it hits the right one too to do something else.

Thats the technical reply, I’m sure someone will come along and make the explanation clearer.

PS It may do it the other way around so that the opus eye isnt damaged while cutting.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Its now working ( I think you fixed it while I was out shopping 😀 )

[Steff Davison]

quote Andrew Edwards:

quote Steff Davison:

@ Kevin
I let the dealer decide which media they chose to print onto, I presume they would pick a media which showed the print in its best light. I also did quite a bit of online research which confirmed the problem with muted reds from the 300 series.

Steff

Hi

Just to update you re gamut in the Latex 300s – we now have the Latex 560 in and HP has addressed this point.

The combination of an extra Optimiser head and a more efficient curing system has allowed them to open up the ink limits allowed by the printer software. So whereas in the 300s you can set a max limit of 100% ink at 8 pass for SAV you can now use 120% ink for example. On top of this there is a vivid mode which can pour down up to 185% ink if required.

Thus we are seeing more vibrancy now with the Latex 500 series – not an issue for you now I understand but just for your info re the saturation point you make re the 300s.

The semi-matt finish of the ink is the same however as the ink is the same as in the 300s.

Hope this keeps you updated with the current situation.

Andrew

Thank you for the update, I have seen the print quality from the 570 and its much more vibrant, its an impressive machine. The print is not as glossy as the Lightbar, as you say, but life is full of compromises.

I am seriously considering replacing one of the Lightbars for the 570 as I feel it may be more suited to longer periods of unattended production.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

quote Andrew Edwards:

quote Steff Davison:

@ Kevin
I let the dealer decide which media they chose to print onto, I presume they would pick a media which showed the print in its best light. I also did quite a bit of online research which confirmed the problem with muted reds from the 300 series.

Steff

Hi

Just to update you re gamut in the Latex 300s – we now have the Latex 560 in and HP has addressed this point.

The combination of an extra Optimiser head and a more efficient curing system has allowed them to open up the ink limits allowed by the printer software. So whereas in the 300s you can set a max limit of 100% ink at 8 pass for SAV you can now use 120% ink for example. On top of this there is a vivid mode which can pour down up to 185% ink if required.

Thus we are seeing more vibrancy now with the Latex 500 series – not an issue for you now I understand but just for your info re the saturation point you make re the 300s.

The semi-matt finish of the ink is the same however as the ink is the same as in the 300s.

Hope this keeps you updated with the current situation.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew, I have seen the print produced by the 570 and the colours are more vibrant, it looks an impressive piece of machinery. The print finish was not as glossy as the Lightbar print, but life is full of compromises, Its much more scratch resistant than the print produced by the Lightbar machines.

I am seriously considering swapping part of my production over to Latex when the 570’s are available for shipping as I feel its more of a volume production machine.

[Steff Davison]

It still reads as p four t, or p t four.

Is your business known as PAT designs? If it is then use letters, forget the numberplate connection, your potential new customers wont even know you have a car, never mind know what your number plate is.

You could put your personalised number plate onto your van and let the potential customer make the connection between p4t and pat but let them make the connection in their own time.

[Steff Davison]

Hi Patrick,

I would drop the "4 " too. I think its making your task extremely difficult.

[Steff Davison]

3M make a range called Di-Noc specifically for this type of work.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

I second what David Rogers says above.

Its your job to negotiate prices and get the best possible deal for your business based on how you pay and the volumes you use. Prices will rise, oil is going up (amongst other things).

I also believe that you should never tell anyone what you pay, suppliers need to protect the value of their brand, discussing prices will make your supplier wary of your integrity and break down trust. Without trust your b*****ed.

[Steff Davison]

I put one brand of Self Adhesive Vinyl through the machine. My machines are currently only producing 1 product.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

@Johnathon

The print isnt as scratch resistant as Latex or UV LED inks from the samples I have tested. The print is passable for the particular application I need it for. Sometimes you have to compromise, I would like it to be better than it is, but it is what it is.

I have custom profile for the media I use, primarily for colour reproduction and optimal ink usage. As Robert has said previously its a "trade off" My costs would escalate if I laminated the product, and I would lose the advantage I have over competitors who produce with solvent inks.

I could have more durable print with latex, but I lose on colour vibrancy and gloss finish, with UV ink which I found to be the most scratch resistant, I have matt effect looking colours which are also slightly grainy (partly caused by the way in which the LED curing system is set up on the print head, so I have been told)

[Steff Davison]

@ Kevin
I let the dealer decide which media they chose to print onto, I presume they would pick a media which showed the print in its best light. I also did quite a bit of online research which confirmed the problem with muted reds from the 300 series.

As regards how well it prints versus the latex, I have tried different media through my machine, it produces vibrant glossy prints on all of it (Its obviously gloss media to start with) I have looked at the finish coming out of the latex machines and it doesnt compare to solvent UV ink. I have given the latex more than a fair trial, as mentioned previously, if latex produced even comparable results I would probably be using latex now, but it doesnt. That may all change with the new 500 series machines. But I have decided to go with Lightbar because it gives me a better product for the application I produce.

@ David
As I have previously said I am not a traditional sign maker, everything I sell is pre designed and I am set up for fairly decent volumes for a small business. If I had to do what you do in your business I would have no hair left at all :banghead:

@ Robert
The white ink is another good reason for me to stay with the technology, I am developing another range which, although not crucial, would benefit from a white ink for more vibrant spot colour.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Update

As per this thread, I have reported issues with the Lightbar technology scratch resistance, slow support service etc.
However, fairly recently I had a serious problem with my machine, which meant total loss of production Colorific got to me first thing the next day which meant my business stayed in production (and in business, that may sound a little drastic but I am an online retailer and 200 odd orders not going out on time can have a significant impact on my selling accounts)

I need to increase my production capability and have been looking at possible alternative machines which will give me instantly usable, hard wearing prints, a crucial requirement in the way I run my business and the market I serve.
I have looked at Latex options and UV LED options and when comparing the quality of the printed product the Roland Lightbar printed images were far superior to those of the other machines and ink systems that I have looked at , the colours were richer and more vibrant than the latex and for my main application not only were the images more vibrant they had a much better glossy finish than the Latex and UV LED curing systems.
OK so I can spend more money and buy a UV LED machine with a varnish channel, but unless I go with machines in the £100,000’s then I am going to have a machine producing 12m2 an hour if I’m lucky with a capital cost 4.5-5x the money of a Lightbar. I need to be able to produce just shy of 180 m2 per day to reach my sales targets, with instantly usable glossy vibrant prints.

Today I took delivery of my second Roland Lightbar machine.

[Steff Davison]

Talk to them, see what they say.

Good luck

Steff

[Steff Davison]

These;

http://rockawnings.co.uk/

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Thank you for the replies, I think going with the college route is the option I feel most comfortable with.

I don’t like the idea of a commercial freelancer really as my setup needs fast turnaround times and I think I would lose that.

Now ideas have been put forward I think my needs are more toward a "creative" my current work is domestic focused however I do want to expand my offering into interior commercial soft signage.

I looked at Warren Beards website and was very impressed with the "design element" of his interior soft signage and window work (If you read this post Warren how did you find your designer?)

I shall approach my local art college and see what happens from there.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Thank you for the reply Stafford, it is very much appreciated.

I have also since learned that the DX7 can produce a smaller droplet size than the DX5 and can also print at a slightly faster speed. Thank you to Justin at Colourificfor that information amongst much more detailed advice.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Sun inks are part of the largest ink company in the world (DIC).

If your machine is out of warranty and you go through a bit of ink then I cant see much of a risk. I think they have the money to back up their own warranty claims etc if it came to it.

One thing Ive found with the printing side of this business, these companies like to shroud everything in mystery and danger to keep their margins. ie If its not our OEM ink then we cant be responsible if your machine explodes and kills everyone in the building etc etc.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

quote DavidRogers:

quote Steff Davison:

quote DavidRogers:

Or just do as every other person seems to do….get image from Google and print it…play the odds that you are small fry and the company names / images you use won’t care!

Dave

I wouldn’t take this advice. Working legitimately and ethically will pay much higher dividends in the long run IMO.

Is the relatively small amount of profit worth potentially losing any equipment you or your business owns?

🙄 Maybe I should have used a very large sarcastic tongue-in-cheek with rolling eyes after that.

Although who amongst us has sought permission for every brand we’ve put on a customer’s sign…the garage that wanted multiple car brands or tyre manufacturers or beauty salon that we put well known icons on. etc. We’ve all done some of this and nobody is whiter-than-white…

My apologies, the post makes me look like snow white, that wasn’t my intention. My remarks were made in the context of using Marvel and Disney type images. Putting an image of a box of oxo cubes on a window poster is a different situation to printing Iron Man bursting through your bedroom wall.

I looked at licensing with a well know brand, its not that simple. They require all sorts of criteria be met, including they want an upfront payment ( in the £1,000’s) differing royalty percentages triggered by different sales volumes etc.
Minimums, penalty clauses and the like.

It seemed like too much hassle for what I wanted so walked away. I could rip images off like many other sellers do, I don’t believe they have all negotiated image rights with the rights owners but its not something I will do.

Steff