-
Which large format decision advice
Hi All,
I have been mulling this over for years now & It really is time to make a move & get my own large format machine.
It seems the more I research though, the harder the decision becomes as to which way to go. I’ve had a couple of quotes from suppliers recently for new VS540i & also looked at a used Mimaki CJV30-130 for about half the price & a used HP Latex 25500 but would like some unbiased (if that’s possible) advice.I currently outsource all printing & spend around 10k Euro ex vat per year which breaks down to roughly the following:
140sqm vinyl mounted to corriboard (laminated & unlaminated) mostly 8×4’s
280sqm vinyl (laminated & unlaminated)
20sqm posters
40sqm banner
20sqm backlit lightbox filmThis is probably slightly conservative to be honest but shows the bulk of what I do.
I am slightly limited regarding space as I work from home & will be converting one of out larger bedrooms (children recently flown the nest 🙂 ) into the print/production room. This was one of the reasons I half discounted the HP as I heard it runs extremely hot!! & would almost heat the house (maybe an advantage in winter??) Also the lack of print & cut with the HP is an issue as I really don’t want a separate plotter as well if I can avoid it. I do love the instant use nature of the latex though.
I will need a laminator too obviously & would like a little advice that way too, used/new, manual/auto?
I have no previous experience using any printer or RIP software & as such wonder would I be best going the route of new which includes installation & training with RIP + all the necessary backup etc. or do I spend half the amount & get used machines & just figure it out myself (I’m generally the type to take things apart, perform repairs etc on pretty much anything myself. I begrudge paying others to do something I can do myself!!)
From what I can establish, I get the feeling that in general the Versacamms are both user friendly & less likely to give trouble than some of the other makes but may be more costly on parts & to buy initially (new or used).
I seem to be doing quite a few high quality gallery wrap style prints lately & also have quite a few clients who require pantone matched branding so another question is whether to go for a regular 4 cartridge CMYK system or an 8 cartridge. Is there really that much difference?
There is also a possibility that we may be moving within the next year or two so it’s another factor I am aware of & think that at least with a used machine It would pay for itself within that time.
Any advice would be very much appreciated
-
21 Replies
-
Hi Myles. Where Abouts are you based ?
-
Republic of Ireland Iain
-
Hi Myles,
Im in a very similar situation although i do have a printer, an older Roland.
Like you said the more you look into it the harder the choice is. I’m really tempted by the HP’s because of the instant finish
but space is an issue and I can’t justify having a laminator, plotter & printer. In the end I always come back to the versacamm + you will get free training on the software and won’t be messing around trying to figure the RIP out.I’d recommend buying new, that way as long as you look after the machine it’s going to last a mighty long time before you need to fork out on any parts.
also go for a machine with more than 4 colours, you’ll get a much better gradient.
-
I have a versacamm its a good machine. I chose 4 colour, which prints slightly faster than 6 colour. There are more options such as white and metallic inks, the machine is much slower with these options but you have a better chance of obtaining premium price points and producing products which the lower price point printers cant. The versacamm will never compete with a small production printer anyway IMO
Its a big step to take but when you have to make it pay you just do what you have to do, for me it was the best decision I made for my business up to that point.
Good luck.
-
quote James Boden:Hi Myles,Im in a very similar situation although i do have a printer, an older Roland.
I’m really tempted by the HP’s because of the instant finish but space is an issue and I can’t justify having a laminator, plotter & printer.
I would add to this, bearing in mind I bought the HP L26500 latex, that with prints ready to go, there’s no space required to leave prints laying about outgassing as you do with solvent. also the machine is front loading so doesn’t need to be moved about to access the rear of the machine.
I find the laminator which is phyc=sically smaller, used much more space when in use!
Myles,
there was a similar thread not too long back, I went into detail on what swayed me to go latex, worth trying to find that thread. -
here it is….
post473505.html?hilit=L26500#p473505
-
Thanks for the replies folks,
James,
It seems really hard to beat the Versacamms for popularity alone & there must be a good reason for that!
The training & setup with a new machine is also a bonus, but I’m fairly confident that I’d work out using a RIP myself with a bit of trial & error, Googling & patience. Not forgetting the boards here are a fantastic resource if you’re ever stuck with something. I think your right about going more than 4 colour, I think I’d probably kick myself for not getting the extras.Funnily enough just got an email this evening about the new VG Tru Vis. All looks very good but It appears to only print to 900dpi whereas the VS goes to 1440dpi for about 4k less!! can that be right??
It’s hard to get away from the versacamm but I’m still getting pulled towards the HP latex.
Hugh,
Interesting previous post about your decision on the HP, I’m presuming you bought it new? If I go with the HP it would definitely be used. The one I was actually looking at is about 5 years old, I think it’s either 2nd or 3rd generation 25500. I was recently warned off them (oddly by a rep trying to sell me a Roland would you believe!!??) telling of high power costs, lack of available media, 3 phase power supply!! (I’m sure the one I looked at was 240v with plug for power & plug for heater?) high cost of ink & that it runs extremely hot. How are you getting on with regards to these points on yours? I see you power consumption doesn’t seem that bad, the rep led me to believe it would be horrendous!I have to say I hadn’t really thought about space to store out-gassing prints, I guess that could be a bit of an issue, how do most people leave them? Can you just leave loosely rolled standing up?
Would be interested to hear from anyone still using an older HP to know if there is likely to be any terminal issues. One think that was mentioned about the one I looked at was that occasionally the printer & RIP had issues communicating. Could this be resolved with a new RIP as I’d be buying it without the Onyx RIP so have to get my own.
-
Hugh, I meant to ask also have you found any issues printing banners with the material distorting due to the heat at all or any other issue with the heat?
-
Ive also got a HP Latex L26500 had it for about 5 years and its been a great machine, i print a lot of scrim banners and yes over a long area the substrate does shrink a bit say 5-10mm but over a 2-3m length due to the heat but i just cut to the edge and not the trim marks. The third generation latex runs a lot cooler which will prevent shrinkage, but to be honest no ones going to notice over the length. So for me Latex all day long……. :thumbsup:
-
thanks for that Andy, I was actually just having a quick look round & it looks like you can pick up a fairly new (2-3 year old) L26500 now for between 4-6k which seems pretty decent. I know it would mean getting a separate cutter but I don’t really have an issue with that.
Can I ask about print quality/colour matching & print durability comparisons between say the VS540i & L26500? -
quote Myles Brewer:Hugh,
Interesting previous post about your decision on the HP, I’m presuming you bought it new? If I go with the HP it would definitely be used. The one I was actually looking at is about 5 years old, I think it’s either 2nd or 3rd generation 25500. I was recently warned off them (oddly by a rep trying to sell me a Roland would you believe!!??) telling of high power costs, lack of available media, 3 phase power supply!! (I’m sure the one I looked at was 240v with plug for power & plug for heater?) high cost of ink & that it runs extremely hot. How are you getting on with regards to these points on yours? I see you power consumption doesn’t seem that bad, the rep led me to believe it would be horrendous!I have to say I hadn’t really thought about space to store out-gassing prints, I guess that could be a bit of an issue, how do most people leave them? Can you just leave loosely rolled standing up?
Would be interested to hear from anyone still using an older HP to know if there is likely to be any terminal issues. One think that was mentioned about the one I looked at was that occasionally the printer & RIP had issues communicating. Could this be resolved with a new RIP as I’d be buying it without the Onyx RIP so have to get my own.
Hi Myles,
It uses two 16amp sockets which you’ll need to get an electritian to put in, cost be about £90 I think,I’ve not really noticed much in the way of shrinkage except on multiples of small stickers, it tents to shrink a bit aling the legnth in the centre more, though the rip I believe does allow for this when cutting – if using the onyx set-up (easy to use). it’s more the cheaper end materials that shrink mre, less noticable on higher end products that were recommended to me by a friend who runs them. on 550gsm banner I’ve noticed no shrink at all, only on the cheap 440 gram.
Cost of inks.. I’m still working that out as I’ve only just (after 3 months of ownership) had to change a couple, moderate use and aprox 200ml in each has lasted that long, carts are 700ml+ and are about £90,
Heat is only an issue on very hot days, I do turn it down a bit on the cheaper products to reduce shrinkage but wouldn’t go below 90°c as it doesn’t always dry fully below that.
I bought mine, second hand, exactly four years old with less then 2000m2 through it for £5800 inc vat!
cheers,
Hugh -
It seems that most of the small issues people bring up about latex can be worked around with a few tweaks. I’m also definitely getting the impression that there is a lot of miss information given out by people with vested interests in selling Eco sol printers!!
-
quote Myles Brewer:It seems that most of the small issues people bring up about latex can be worked around with a few tweaks. I’m also definitely getting the impression that there is a lot of miss information given out by people with vested interests in selling Eco sol printers!!
Possibly! I really only spoke with Nigle Pugh from Graphityp, I think he’s about as honest as the day is long and spent a fair amount of time going through all the pros & cons of solvent (the versacamms), couldn’t have asked for better advice on the machines and he didn’t dis the latex machines at all..
-
quote Hugh Potter:quote Myles Brewer:It seems that most of the small issues people bring up about latex can be worked around with a few tweaks. I’m also definitely getting the impression that there is a lot of miss information given out by people with vested interests in selling Eco sol printers!!
Possibly! I really only spoke with Nigle Pugh from Graphityp, I think he’s about as honest as the day is long and spent a fair amount of time going through all the pros & cons of solvent (the versacamms), couldn’t have asked for better advice on the machines and he didn’t dis the latex machines at all..
That’s most encouraging to know :smiles:
-
quote Myles Brewer:thanks for that Andy, I was actually just having a quick look round & it looks like you can pick up a fairly new (2-3 year old) L26500 now for between 4-6k which seems pretty decent. I know it would mean getting a separate cutter but I don’t really have an issue with that.
Can I ask about print quality/colour matching & print durability comparisons between say the VS540i & L26500?Hi Myles i can’t comment about the VS540i as I’ve never used one or seen anything printed on it. The L26500 print quality is very good prints black nice and dense and I’ve never had any issues with colour matching print durability is very good i can print and finish straight away no need to out gas or wait for any drying. I used to use my latex to print on most substrates scrim banners, pop ups, pull ups, soft signage, canvas’s vinyls for mounting and never really had any problems. Ive now got a Flatbed Jetrix KX7 so no more mounting. :thumbsup:
-
quote Andy Kordowski:quote Myles Brewer:thanks for that Andy, I was actually just having a quick look round & it looks like you can pick up a fairly new (2-3 year old) L26500 now for between 4-6k which seems pretty decent. I know it would mean getting a separate cutter but I don’t really have an issue with that.
Can I ask about print quality/colour matching & print durability comparisons between say the VS540i & L26500?Hi Myles i can’t comment about the VS540i as I’ve never used one or seen anything printed on it. The L26500 print quality is very good prints black nice and dense and I’ve never had any issues with colour matching print durability is very good i can print and finish straight away no need to out gas or wait for any drying. I used to use my latex to print on most substrates scrim banners, pop ups, pull ups, soft signage, canvas’s vinyls for mounting and never really had any problems. Ive now got a Flatbed Jetrix KX7 so no more mounting. :thumbsup:
Excellent thanks Andy. Always good to hear from people with 1st hand experience & not reps.
-
OK, Just had loan approval from bank & have an L26500 lined up to have a look at. Can anyone give me some tips on anything I need to look out for, any questions I need to ask?
-
quote Myles Brewer:OK, Just had loan approval from bank & have an L26500 lined up to have a look at. Can anyone give me some tips on anything I need to look out for, any questions I need to ask?Ask what service it last had, A B C, a is the minor, b major and C almost everything that moves, had mine two years and only needed an A just before getting rid of it, this will also tell you how much it has been used.
Check the display and go to maintenance and see if anything is due or over due, if it says like Maintenance Service A overdue then you know its not been done.
You can also get a service report from visiting its internal web server that will tell you everything from what its run to using non hp inks or parts etc.
Lastly if you get stuck for a rip give me a shout, still have my caldera dongle sitting here.
Kev
-
Nice one Kevin, That’s a great help as I am going into this completely blind.
It’ll be started up, heads cleaned & test prints done & some stats sent to me before I get to see them anyway so that will help.
Not sure about the RIP, I know I’ll have to get one & Onyx has been recommended over Caldera but not 100% as to why. Again it’s something I’m completely green about.
-
quote Myles Brewer:Nice one Kevin, That’s a great help as I am going into this completely blind.
It’ll be started up, heads cleaned & test prints done & some stats sent to me before I get to see them anyway so that will help.
Not sure about the RIP, I know I’ll have to get one & Onyx has been recommended over Caldera but not 100% as to why. Again it’s something I’m completely green about.
Well Caldera / Onyx one very simple difference, Caldera only works on Mac and Onyx only works on Windows (thats not totally it but as complicated as you need it) so its a simple choice of which ever operating system you want. I used Caldera with my 26500 and a little now with my 310 but also purchased onyx with my 310, its really a choice of what you want to use, both have simple or complicated options but I will say that the 26500 works very differently to the new 3 series, it uses the rip to customise the profiles and make tweaks so its important to get a rip that profiles are available for and I have to be honest whilst searching for new profiles for my 26500 it was always Onyx that had them and everything else you had to make your own using the onyx settings. The newer 3 series store profiles on the machine so its not rip specific and much more profiles available so you dont need to do half as much tweaking of the profiles as you need to do in the 26500.
If you dont get a rip included with the printer then I would honestly try one of the monthly rental ones, as by the time you purchase knew, then upgrade because they sold you the basic option and it does not have all the features you need, then 6 months later they bring out a new version and you have to pay again to stay current its all pay out. Im currently running flexi which I had anyway for design side but I added the rip side and for the monthly cost £39 it comes out about the same as paying yearly with all the updates but you get the full version from scratch and the design and cut software with it. There are a couple pay monthly ones and im sure in time it will go that way for a lot more.
If you do go ahead with the printer and need some help with materials that work etc then by all means give me a shout, it works very well with the basic profiles especially on pretty much any vinyl but got very picky when it came to outdoor banners, I tried loads and when it came to full ink coverage it really did give me some headaches until I got the right medias and tweaked profiles.
Kev
-
Hi again all, Well I went to see & sealed the deal, so we are now the proud & very excited owners of… well,.. actually TWO!! HP 26500’s. The deal for the two was just too good to refuse. So I now have even more to think about. I had never envisaged the possibility of having two. Although I’m not overly tight on space, an extra machine will certainly impact on room. I can see advantages on running both, albeit if I do, it will be individually rather than simultaneously I think. I don’t really want the added expense of the 2 machine licence if we go with Onyx Thrive 211 (was recommended) Also the additional 2 16amp sockets (working from home in a converted bedroom, I don’t want to start turning our home into an industrial unit!!) Could be handy having 1 for vinyl & the other for banner/paper/lightbox media etc. Alternatively I sell the 2nd machine & put the cash into a new badly needed shed or carport for a bit of very much needed cover for fitting van graphics (having struggled outdoors for the last 13yrs, this would be extremely welcome!!) So it’s a tricky one, but have to say I’m leaning to the later at the moment (as is the good lady!! which may sway things :puppyeyes: )
Kevin, I think you may have helped me with decision about the RIP there. I have no previous knowledge of them but have myself always worked with FlexiPro 7 & 8.1 which I’ve always been aware had a RIP but obviously never had a need for it. I had been considering going the rental way for the new version of Flexi for some time now & have only just seen over the last day or so that HP have actually started supplying Flexi with the new latex machines so it seems that it could be a good match & may make my transition to print a little easier as I’m already familiar with Flexi. How have you found it in use compared to Onyx? From what I read last night, would I be right in saying Flexi is easier to use (adjustments to artwork very simple within RIP page, rotation, add bleed, eyelets etc. etc. whereas in Onyx you have more steps to get same results) but Onyx has better/more options regarding colour management?
One of my main issues/bugbears when outsourcing has always been colour matching issues, which is also a key driving factor in my decision to go in-house, could I have issues in this regard if I go with the Flexi RIP?
My thoughts are maybe to try out Flexi rental at first & see how we go I guess & then if we are having colour issue then maybe stump up for Onyx, but again which one? Thrive 211 was recommended I think as being less problematic for novice users? Would that be correct? So maybe less functional?
Log in to reply.
