[Steff Davison]

What age is the machine please?

[Steff Davison]

@ David Hammond. I couldnt do what I do without having people who help. Getting the right ones is the tough bit. I got to 18 staff but scaled back, I have different systems in place now, so steady growth should be fine. The business is only as good as the people within it, but having allied sign making skills has been a major bonus too, I just dont think that the bespoke signage business is for me, although I did consider it a few months ago, thought about buying an existing sign business during the covid shutdown but banged my head on a cupboard and snapped myself out of it.

[Steff Davison]

I have been in business for 8 years, I used to work 7 days a week, sometimes I still do, not because I have to but because I have staff working 7 days and I will come in and do a few hours to let them know I can do what I ask them to do (they have 5 day work weeks, which include a weekend day once every two weeks.
When I started out, I worked the weekends because I wanted the money and I paid rent for the week so wanted my money’s worth. I still work hard, but in a different way to how I used to, I have 10 people to pay so I have obligations to make sure the company pays its way. Overworking IMO is a bad long term startedgy, but for a relatively short period of time its no big deal.
As an aside, I used to go in on xmas day for 3 hours just because I knew my competition was sat at home “slacking” I dont do this anymore as I appreciate the importance of quality relaxation time and 3 hours on xmas day was just being silly, (but I would do it again if I thought I was starting to take too much for granted.)

[Steff Davison]

Used to contour cut 50 meter rolls unattended all the time. Summa with summacut server. Occasionally had tracking issues but we were contour cutting approx 3000 sq meters a week using above method. At the time (4 years ago couldnt find any other manufacturer who offered a solution, apart from summa)

[Steff Davison]

The hard bit David is the transition. We changed about 3 years ago and we started off gradually, when we stopped our “discount” offers, turnover halved (thats a big swing in numbers) but its been worth it for us. We are doing less production for higher nett margins and it gives us production capacity back.
I built my business on a discount model and it was a slightly scary time, to say the least. It is suprising what customers will pay if you provide them with exactly what they want, just because you dont think the price is worth it doesnt mean the right customers wont.

The only downside is that fixed costs can become an unacceptably high percentage of your sales costs and staff costs can eat the whole pie if you dont keep your eye on it(even if that staff cost is you and another). Good luck.

[Steff Davison]

The BBL wont really help any business which was a “living dead” business before the Covid crisis the crisis just sped up their demise, they took a loan or they didnt, the outcome was always the same. BBL has been a once in a lifetime oportunity for the right business.

We have what we have, from my own perspective we have changed who our target customer is, the price buyer isnt the customer we want. Start to love your target customers and they will pay you back many times over.

[Steff Davison]

I sell mainly online so have been fortunate in that demand was stronger than normal for us, although we have been aversley affected by Covid. Trying to buy new machinery is the challenge at the moment, it seems the machinery dealers may have been hurting more than many from what I have experienced recently.

I think prices should strengthen as raw material costs rise along with other overheads people still want quality but they want value too, whatever that value may be.

[Steff Davison]

Thanks for the advice David. I just bought another OKI and will buy a collator and double head drill press when I get some time.

[Steff Davison]

Hi Pane I have 3 Trotecs and 2 HPC lasers. Two types of work on a laser, engraving or cutting.

Trotecs are very fast and accurate for engraving work so if you engrave door plates for example (and in big numbers) a Trotec will earn you much more money because it will engrave approx 6 times faster than the HPC machine. For cutting work a Trotec is virtually the same speed as the HPC (same laser power tube) so if your work is mainly cutting with the odd bit of engraving HPC is the best return on your money.

My work is manily engraving I estimate that I would need 18 HPC machines to knock out the same amount of work as my 3 Trotecs. I Have added the HPC’s for cutting work and to free up more time so the Trotecs can engrave more volume.

Both machines are worth their money, in my business engraved product is worth more money than cut product. Every man and his dog has a laser that can cut at a commercial speed. As Phil Davies does, when the volumes get too much for one cutting machine he ads another.

Good luck HPC produce a good cutting machine with customer support to match. Like anything, the price only makes a difference if you havent got the work for the machine or the wrong type of work to make it pay.

[Steff Davison]

Now is a great time to expand, provided you have done your due diligence, my way of looking at things is be brave when people are fearful, and be fearful when everyone else is being brave (reckless).

If you can buy at your price, rather than theirs then look into it further. Waiting till it closes is fine if you just want the machines ( but from what you have said I think you want their customers) Good luck

Oh and an additional £200-£300K per annum isnt to be sneezed at either( even if that only nets down to an additional £20-£30k a year.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 3 months ago by  Steff Davison.

[Steff Davison]

The insurance companies have £billions in reserves, if they previously rejected your claim and the reason given was that Covid19 pandemic wasnt covered then the recent court ruling suggests that you may in fact be able t make a claim.
Good luck

[Steff Davison]

Not high volume at the moment, but there are volume lines we could go after if the potential return matches the outlay. But we arent interested in producing 1000 business cards or 5000 full colour flyers, its doesnt fit our business model. Saying that, producing small run personalised booklets may be of interest and a drill press would be handy for a range of carded stuff I want to produce.
We do make good returns on the lines we put through our current machine but we are hand trimming which isnt ideal. Maybe we should look at a more automated workflow, it just seems a great deal of aggravation for what it is. I remember Warren Beard went more into digital printing a few years ago (If you are reading this-how did that go?)
Its just getting the right fit with the production methods we use at the moment I suppose.

[Steff Davison]

Looking at machinery which will make what we already sell more profitable in terms of efficiency and production volumes.

If that doesnt go to plan then Ill buy a sponge and a bucket and start up as a window cleaner. Fingers crossed plan a works.

[Steff Davison]

Worked all the way through, furloughed some staff, they are all back now. Payment wise 100% up front or we dont work. Business has been good (thankfully) but Im not confident for the general economy once government aid has been spent and (next year) they want businesses to start paying it back (BBL’s).

Its tough out there, but I think the smaller businesses with a tighter control over their overhead stand a much better chance than the bigger boys who rely more on higher turnover for their business to work.

[Steff Davison]

908 ltd, hobarts, csi, trotec

[Steff Davison]

But your house wont earn you £100,000’s per year. These machines are a small fortune for a reason. You dont lay out that sort of money to make £10,000 a year.

[Steff Davison]

It will be anodised aluminium, laser engraved (to remove the black powder coating) at a guess.

Its not the type of work I do, but there are a few out there who specialise in this type of work.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Email not received.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Hi Myles, If you can send me your email address I will contact you. I am no longer a paying member here so cant contact you through the site.

Regards Steff

[Steff Davison]

I am able to produce this type of work.

What size pebbles, how soon do you want them?

Do they want colour filled?

Is there different wording on each pebble?

Steff

[Steff Davison]

A quality laser would work to the tolerances you require for that sort of work. Laser mark the calibration part , and also the cut shape. Then print in a jig afterwards perhaps.

[Steff Davison]

No its not a tangential cutter, although it does have a "tangential simulation mode" within the summa cut software.
My machines each have a genuine copy of Summa cut and all the other bits and pieces which come with it. I have used mine with flexi as the design software. You could use Corel or adobe Illustrator if that is what you are used to.

Other software packages are available, others here may be able to help you with that. I have used flexi since I started, you can use it on subscription. Its a case of what suits you

[Steff Davison]

quote Richard Wills:

Thanks Steff, are the Suma’s wildly better than the Graphtec, for what we’re after – this won’t be running every day.

A lot of the text we’ll be working with will be nearer 25 – 100mm high, but I have a colleague who likes small text, so I’ll let her learn how to weed small letters (fortunately, house style is sans-serif).

Already have laminator, and laminate and mount prints to aluminium and DiBond, with a couple of 8×4 benches, and plenty of light boxes (do they help for weeding?)

Most of the text will be a mid grey, as well as potentially some out from window frosting (aware that 24″ isn’t totally ideal, but can design the graphics with feature spacing).

We may be moving into a rabbit warren of a new space, so will need signage and info all round. Rather than print and mount onto forex etc, figured It was time to go straight to the wall. That and the ability to have text on the gallery walls at relatively short notice, is what’s tipping the balance (but not quite to £2k). If colleagues want last minute text, then they can experience the joys of weeding, until they start getting their orders in, in a timely fashion.

Oooo some earlier posts deleted…better be careful.

I rate Summas, the first machine I bought was a 10 year old used Summa 120D it ran for 3 years non stop(8-10 hour a day non stop), then it died, I still have it, one day Ill put it in reception as a reminder of how it all started.

Anyway, its down to personal choice, I have a particular workflow which wouldnt work with any other brand of plotter, namely using a "cut server" cutting registration system which has saved me countless hours in labour cost. To me they are a workhorse.

Graphtec are a quality machine, its a Marmite thing I suppose. I have stayed loyal to the brand that got me out of my spare bedroom.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Steff

[Steff Davison]

I’ll contact you after the week end. Ill put your name on it until then.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Hi David, its running pigment ink (Inktec, but I am told you can swap out back to Epson inks without a clean )

[Steff Davison]

I use flexi with Roland and Summa equipment, only because I started on Flexi and didnt want to relearn new software.

Onyx is supported by Art Systems who I presume will support your printer. If I was in your shoes and I had to learn RIP software then I would go for Onyx because I have the technical expertise from the engineers if I have a problem with my equipment ( some engineers may blame the rip for poor quality print ).

Steff

[Steff Davison]

quote Simon Worrall:

quote Steff Davison:

On a lighter note….. 28 days to xmas. :smiles:

Lighter? That’s 28 more days to go into debt!

Or 28 days to take money

[Steff Davison]

Seems a good idea, make it more affordable to people who havent got the money. Potentially higher price point.

Record level of new credit card debt last month, the way the economy works has changed.Were being consumed by an ever growing debt mountain.

On a lighter note….. 28 days to xmas. :smiles:

[Steff Davison]

quote Stafford Cox:

Which model is it Steff?

Its an RF 640 Stafford. I have had an engineer out on Friday, it needs a new thingy that does the wiper bit.

Thank you for your reply , it is appreciated.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Thank you for the reply, its much appreciated.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

quote NeilRoss:

quote Greg McCarthy:

I used to work for Gravograph.
They are the best for engraving machines by far but are expensive.
Ive had a LS100 EX for the past 7 years and its a beast.
HPC Ive found customer service was poor for materials so would not buy a laser from them, in my opinion, but that might of changed.
Trotec lasers are decent too.
Id suggest only looking at lasers with U.S laser sources in. No glass tubes etc.

Greg – I’m not in the market for a laser engraver, but just out of interest, what is used in place of glass tubes?

Western machines use metal tubes, Trotec a heat sealed ceramic tube.

[Steff Davison]

A decent "western " brand machine depending on bed size and power around £15,000. HPC sell Chinese machines with UK back up they are much less money.

Phil Davies has some HPC machines he also has a western machine so knows both.

As a footnote, there are more people entering the laser gift market, you know what happens to prices when that happens. I bought my first machine 2 years ago, I got in just in time to get myself some traction, its going to get much tougher.

Good luck,

[Steff Davison]

quote Daniel Evans:

What stickers do you guys get? I don’t tend to get orders for stickers, perhaps i’m missing out

Or you may just be lucky :smiles:

[Steff Davison]

How many do you want to buy?

Or trade supplier printing direct onto acrylic, then add a movement.

[Steff Davison]

You can cut it with a laser, but it doesnt half make some smoke, not my favourite material.

[Steff Davison]

quote Robert Lambie:

The only true one to work that i know of is the Summa cutter with its automated take-up. £1000 extra add-on to a particular summa model of cutter (i forget the series)
it allows batches of printed graphics to be contour cut and then taken up by the reel.
it does this by reading a bar code periodically printed along with the graphics in batches.
the bar code allows for automated alignment and the take up system works each time a batch is printed, takes up, then feeds out the next x-amount of metres to be contour cut and repeats.

what i am trying to say, and i could be wrong, is that there needs to be a brain somewhere in the system to tell the take-up reel to kick-in, and when it does, how many metres at a time.
If a normal take up works on slack of the dance-bar or by breaking a laser and then taking up. it wont work, because it takes-up the slack till there is none. meaning as the cutter fires back and forward it will create a motor jam.

it could work easily if it was manually done each time by a simple button. but unattended is a different matter.

also, having a universal take-up would be pointless as the tracking will run out every 5 metres or so.

I purchased the Summa cutter for this very reason. roll to roll contour cutting of prints. however, i had to return it after months of fails and wasted media. Ultimately I was let down by the company “Perfect Colours” in overcoming the problems of what i believe in the end was a rogue/faulty machine, if not i was miss-sold the machine.

I think there was a problem with a certain batch of machines, I too had many problems with a Summa using cut server. Art systems were absolutely spot on and provided exceptional service. They ultimately replaced the machine for me.

Ive recently bought another Summa , same model this time I needed to register the machine specifically for use with the cut server, the machine hasnt missed a beat (it cuts for 8-10 hours a day) top notch machines.

[Steff Davison]

You can use your take up unit with print and cut work. Look on you tube, there are some instructional videos there. Its a case of inputting the correct settings and away you go.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Now Sold

[Steff Davison]

Hi Derek,
Its a 120 r summa cut

[Steff Davison]

Hi Daniel,

Can you contact Richard again, he has had a problem with his email account. Thanks

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Gentleman’s name Richard Butler.

richard@coloursafeuk.com

Tel 07798 136 000

[Steff Davison]

quote Denise Goodfellow:

quote Steff Davison:

quote Ewan Chrystal:

I see Fulham Graphics only started on 5th April 2018. This looks very much like packing in one company and starting up under another name. I know it happens but i have damaged signs from 101 i have been trying to get replaced. They have been ignoring me for some time now. I can now see why :shake:

I dont think this is the case, Fulham Graphics is owned by a different person altogether, but time will tell I suppose.

If you go bankrupt you cannot start another company in your name…… I think

Group 101 has gone into voluntary liquidation, thats totally different to personal bankruptcy.

[Steff Davison]

quote Ewan Chrystal:

I see Fulham Graphics only started on 5th April 2018. This looks very much like packing in one company and starting up under another name. I know it happens but i have damaged signs from 101 i have been trying to get replaced. They have been ignoring me for some time now. I can now see why :shake:

I dont think this is the case, Fulham Graphics is owned by a different person altogether, but time will tell I suppose.

[Steff Davison]

quote Andrew O Brien:

I can’t image the stress they’ve been going through.

What about the stress the poster who didnt get his jobs went through? …Just saying

[Steff Davison]

Got the details thanks

[Steff Davison]

I use Flexi, the cut file is generated in Flexi, but the bar code associated with the flexi contour cut is generated in production manager of flexi. This file is then sent to a unique location, which Summa cut server will look for once the opus eye has read the barcode for that job.

Once the job is printed along with the barcode (which can be put above or below the print job depending upon your own preferences) and loaded onto the summa, the opus searches for the bar code and then retrieves it from the job file. It then cuts it after it has aligned the job etc etc. Its like watching magic.

I think Onyx rip is a slightly more streamlined production work flow than flexi.

[Steff Davison]

Same machines as yourself. Research Summa Cut Server, thats the clever bit.

[Steff Davison]

I cut a bit of vinyl. In my work flow I use 3 Summas along with barcode sever. This means that the summas cut multiple 1 meter length jobs (ensures cut accuracy in smaller length batches) with out any interaction from an operative, just leave the machine to get on with it, it reads the barcode associated with the job, finds the corresponding file and cuts it.

Saves a lot of time, i get through about 1500 running meters a week using this method. If I used a manual method of sending each job it would take up a fair amount of man hours.

[Steff Davison]

I wouldnt re posses the work, that may be illegal, unless your terms and conditions state you retain title until the goods are paid for in full. I would send a letter before action and take him to court. He has taken advantage of your good nature as far as I am concerned. Get a judgement and the escalate it to the high court for recovery.

[Steff Davison]

When I was researching lasers last year, both "brands" are re-badged Chinese made machines. Both companies have their own UK technicians etc. They are low priced, if you are just cutting then the cheaper glass tubes are ok but if you plan to etch as well as cut then the way the tube "fires" when it etches means that your tube’s life will be dramatically reduced. The speed and quality on etched work is poor compared to the better western manufactured brands.

I finished up with Trotec because I wanted a work horse that produced top end results. Grafityp also are agents for a range of lasers (cant remember the brand name, they were decent people to deal with and gave good advice)

[Steff Davison]

Another benefit I see is that the "better" job with quality materials etc etc is affordable for all ( who pass the credit check) I dont think you need to "gouge" the customer, just play fair. Thats the drawback with a specialist finance lead sales person, they can very quickly get very greedy. I dont think Ive seen Roger Cook feature a sign company, not yet anyway.

[Steff Davison]

quote David Hammond:

Their websites say there’s a daily settlement.

I’d imagine that the more you use them, the better your rate becomes.

Invoice factoring companies can take their cash back if the customer doesn’t pay.
Also worth considering what happens if the customer raises a dispute, as the finance company will undoubtedly get involved.

I think the loan is a personal loan, and not secured against any asset. I dont think the finance company can pusue you for any non payers etc.

In general I think its a great idea, making your goods or services as affordable as possible for your customers. What a great way to sell a sign….. how does £100 a month sound?? … interest free credit of course. If you cant close more deals for more money with that on your tool box you should be grilling burgers. ( not aimed at you David BTW )

[Steff Davison]

I have some, unfortunately the main component of these is dolphin skin. 😆

[Steff Davison]

Thank you for the offer Stafford, I have now been given a revised date for repair. If I get things done now, then I’m no better off really than waiting a few more days ( hope that makes sense)

[Steff Davison]

Thanks for the advice, unfortunately uk suppliers haven’t got stock. Its amazing IMO that Roland havent got a relatively common part in stock, if it was my only machine it would possibly put me out of business.

[Steff Davison]

Have the same error on one of my machines, another "small" problem I could really do without. Maybe I should have bought the maintenance contract the last engineer who visited suggested I buy from him!?

[Steff Davison]

If you want more of the money to go to you, then you’ll need to allocate some money to buy the right "money making" kit on the right deal, freedom tends to cost money.

Good luck.

[Steff Davison]

I dont think your supplier of built up letters has done you any favours, £2000 difference!!!!!! I wouldnt be in a rush to use them again. Why couldnt they quote you the second price the first time?

As for being undercut by other sign co’s…

I think its just a "hidden cost" of pricing at your desired price points, there are some hungry , well established companies out there looking to keep their labour force busy, maintaining better margins is getting harder IMO ( it is in the marketplaces I trade in anyway) If I cant sell for more, I try to produce for less.

And back to a golden oldie….I dont think your clarity software does you any favours…it adds in too much cost IMO :smiles:

[Steff Davison]

Gravograph carry a range of machines which are designed to manufacture braille /tactile signage,it makes the hole then inserts the "braille" bit.Their equipment is premium price point.

[Steff Davison]

Robert you seem to have answered your own question. Art Systems sorted out your problem and I presume, authorised your return and refund. Whether you bought from Perfect Colours or another Art Systems supplied dealer is irrelevant the end result ( provided you had the good sense to talk to Art Systems) would have been the same.

If I had bought from a non authorised "dealer" then the outcome may have been totally different because I wouldnt have access to Art Systems and their technical support department.

[Steff Davison]

quote Robert Lambie:

Hi Steff

Like most printers and cutters, there are multiple suppliers of Summa in the UK.
Great machines, but depends on who you buy from that determines how after sales etc is handled.

e.g.
I bought an Audi from London Audi, couple of years later I bought one from Stafford Audi.
Due to how the whole purchase and after-sales was handled, i will never buy from Stafford Audi again, even though they were the most competitive priced. But obviously this has zero to do with the car and doesn’t change my opinion on the car itself.

Well the way I see it is that if I am buying through an authorised Summa source, then Summa are responsible for my warranty, I want an authorised Summa expert ( which is what I ultimately got ) not someone who knows there way around a plotter. It doesnt matter who the authorised dealer is who I bought it from ( Spandex excluded) I pay a premium for the brand for a reason. As a footnote when my machine started with its issues I contact my supplying dealer to tell them I had a problem and that I was contacting Art Systems to get it rectified, they were happy for me to do this. Ultimately Art Systems are the competent authority for Summa machines in this country.

[Steff Davison]

quote Robert Lambie:

quote Steff Davison:

that to me is the real test, how do they act when things arent going their way

That’s really down to who you actually buy your cutter from though. Not Summa themselves.

Well it wasnt a Spandex supplied machine, so as far as I am concerned its through Summa’s official distribution network, Art Systems were extremely good. I didnt buy the machine from Art Systems though, but ultimately Art Systems provide the Summa 3 year warranty on the machines in the UK.

Not sure what warranty Spandex provide, I dont deal with them.

[Steff Davison]

+1 for Summa

Exceptional after sales care, they didnt stop until they had resolved an issue I had with one of my machines (under warranty..so no cost to me) that to me is the real test, how do they act when things arent going their way,

Ive recently bought my 6th Summa,, wont consider anything else.

[Steff Davison]

Thank you for your offer of help Stafford, engineer called this morning and carried out some maintenance, he also fitted a new cap top " to be on the safe side". Advised that it may also be the print head….. wait and see……oh and the cap top spring was missing! Ive not got it..so no idea where that went.

To be honest I’ve had enough, Ive had more than my money’s worth out of them, time to look at bigger and better things.

[Steff Davison]

You may be right Derek, but all things considered I think its time to move another rung up with my kit and now I have my laser with camera registration, I have a yearning for a decent flat bed too.

Melting plastic and charring wood is fun.

[Steff Davison]

I personally think you will struggle. Flat bed with uv ink(inc white) is probably the way I would attempt it.

[Steff Davison]

They are genuine Roland parts Stafford.
I send photos of print issue and nozzle check to my dealer, 2 weeks ago I replaced all the ink lines at a cost of just short of £1400 on the machine Im told now needs a new cap top. I am getting a bit annoyed with the number of "small" issues my machines seem to be having.

I think its time to get rid of them all and buy some proper production kit

[Steff Davison]

What do you mean by a lease?

Do you want to own the machine (title to the machine is in your name) at any time during which you have use of it?

All rates are negotiable depending on your own particular circumstances, maximum term for a machine which is used as security is 7 years (but it will be 5 years for a relatively low value machine such as the Roland)

Rental of a machine should be much more expensive than a "lease".

[Steff Davison]

Art systems.

[Steff Davison]

quote James Bateman:

Hi Guys, I need some advice:

Does anyone have experience from selling (or buying) a small business?

I’ve tried Gumtree and Ebay, but you mostly get tyre kickers and people that don’t quite get what it takes to be an owner/manager to run a small business.

Any advice or examples/experiences that you know about would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

James.

Be careful, there are many sharks out there who "specialise" in selling businesses. They will tell you they have clients waiting to buy a business like yours for more money than you think its worth etc. many are just scam merchants.

How you sell and who you use to help you sell, will depend primarily on how much turnover your business generates, sub £1million is considered too small to be of interest to professional business sales advisers (the good ones) who will add value to your business sale.

As has been suggested, read up on the subject. If you are a smaller business (sub £1million) then learn how to prepare your business for sale yourself. As for valuation, THERE IS NO FORMULA…its worth what the market will pay.

Oh and dont sell potential its not worth a bean.

Steff

[Steff Davison]

Would it be ok if I poached that design??

Whats a pun?

[Steff Davison]

I run a couple of RF 640’s and with ink at full retail price the machine’s RIP software (not versaworks) says £0.90 per running meter (80-85% coverage) in my experience you can add another 40% to that. Also I have had my machines profiled for one media running 1 type of job so I am hopefully getting optimal coverage and ink usage….oh and I use solventUV ink which is more cost effective than solvent ink, so I am told (and looking at the above figures….seems justified).

I run fairly long jobs for relatively small returns… but the ink costs, if you are pricing correctly,as a percentage of the job cost should be negligible.

I like the RF640’s they are a good solid work horse, I have a VSi 540, which is a very good machine (but in a different way to the RF’s) if I was buying another small production machine it would be an RF, I think that the machine cost in relation to its production capacity is extremely good. I look at how many meters per hour it produces against how many £1000’s it costs.

Good luck.

[Steff Davison]

quote Martyn Heath:

Hi myles, yes i read through all your posts in the last few weeks when you were doing a deal on the machines. Hope your floor hasnt colapsed with the weight yet 🙂

Sounds like a helova deal you got 5k for 2!!. Even now your models seems around 4 – 4.5k each. Looks like i did a deal yesterday on the l25500. Prob not the cheapest i got but seems more practical as it comes as a package. 3300 but comes with a computer with the Shiraz signature Rip. So hopefully plug in and off we go, apart from i need to find a laminator now :awkward: .

At the end of the day i see this as my chance to get into the printing world. Hopefully i can get 2-3 trouble free years out of it and then think about upgrading to a newer model if needed.

I was very similar to yourself when I was looking at my first printer, although I was knocking out a fair amount of cut vinyl at the time so had decent cash flow it was still a nerve racking time.

But my reasoning was that you cant move up the ladder without the equipment, printers are relatively more expensive because what they produce has more value, I dont personally believe the margin is any better than cutting vinyl but the value of what the machine knocks out is much much higher. And once you get the printer earning then the next machine you want is even more expensive, its a never ending circle.

I want a certain machine, in fact I really need it!! but Im not going to bet the farm on it, so for now it has to wait, maybe in 12 months time. It just seems that thats the way this industry is…. faster better …more expensive.

Good luck.

[Steff Davison]

quote Martyn Heath:

Well having had 2 non payers in the last 12 months i can tell you what i did.

The first one was a shop, owing 800 pounds. Sent letters, phoned her for a few months then she closed down. So we went down the legal road, our debt collector told us she owed 10s of thousands. We set up a payment plan but with this for the first 3 months the debt collector recieved all the funds to cover their costs then after that payments would come to us. So as expected after 3 months she stopped paying and we could take her to court however we were told that we are such as small fish that we wont get a penny. So she has gone bankrupt and wiped the slate clean.

Numer two was a client we have done a few bits for, he came and ordered a few hundred pounds of stickers and magnetics. 2 months later i am chasing him on the phone and emails. No answers. He has closed up shop. Turns out its not the first time he has done this, he went bankrupt few years ago owing thousands.
So having learnt lessons from the first experience, legal isnt an option and im ( oh i swore ). So a few household visits which he wasnt home.
Few weeks later i go into the village shop and guess who is sitting in the car park in his nice mercedes. So i walk over and say hi how you doing? wheres my f*****g money. He tells me he hasnt got any money 🙂 so i tell him this is his last chance to get over to the cash machine and sort this out. After me pushing him across the car park i lost it and gave him an uppercut. Down like a sack of (oh i swore !). Anyway, he called the police and an ambulance but no evidence to pin it on me.

I feel very happy now. Unfortunatly the car park had many spectators and i was worried how this would affect business. Well, everyone has paid ontime since 🙂

Maybe get payment upfront from new customers, and credit check customers who want to open a credit account with you.

OR you could have a "non payers" wall with pictures of non payers all bloodied and bandaged up 😆 oh and obviously the amount owed underneath each photo which could be arranged with the amount of money they owed and the beating which would correspond to that amount ( black eye £100-£200 black eye some facial bruising £201-£400 etc etc).

[Steff Davison]

quote Martyn Heath:

quote Denise Goodfellow:

As a quick guide, we price £45 per running metre, add £10 for laminate, add £10 for complex cut shapes, as the cutting can take ages sometimes.

Price is reduced the more they have, we don’t reduce to a really cheap price as the printers not the fastest when set on quality print.

Seems like good margins for you denise. What they should be. Everyone seems to be doing printing so cheaply i wonder how they make any money.

My pricing out here in euros- is 35 euros a square metre for normal print laminated. 45 euros a square metre for small stickers laminated plus 15 euros a metre contour cutting.

I think its still too cheap but im priced above average!! so what do you do.

Customers looking for a few hundred small stickers normally only care about one thing. Price…… oh and that they can have them tomorrow ofcourse

Well everybody prices to their particular market, I wont tell you what I sell at per linear meter, but I sell approx 1500-1800 linear meters per week..If i could get £45 a meter (at the same volume) I’d be travelling to work in a helicopter.

[Steff Davison]

Although I partly agree with Denise’s advice for a sign maker, its a different business when selling on online marketplaces. Be careful, margins are now getting even tighter and your machine will need to do some work if you want to make it pay and remain price competitive.

Also your graphtec is too small you really need at least a 130 wide machine. Roland do a small printer….cant remember what its called……. which produces 610 wide print……speed wise its like watching paint dry apparently.

[Steff Davison]

quote David Hammond:

Interesting link Stuart.

We had one customer, who did a lot of work on construction sites, when we looked at CSCS cards. The trouble was the client was a pain in the backside to deal with, so we sacked them off. I believe they’ve been sacked off by a few other companies too.

I hoped this post would have opened some dialect with the BSGA and the smaller sign makers, a perfect opportunity to sell themselves to a captive audience, educate us all in what they do for the industry. Perhaps I was just too optimistic. :puppyeyes:

Well Mr Lambie is a director of the BSGA, so maybe you could ask him?

I looked at the BSGA website, it doesnt really tell me much. After a quick browse I still have no idea of what the benefits of joining would be, or whether I would be eligible.

[Steff Davison]

I dont know the ££ value of your 3-5 print jobs per month, but I would try and up your print sales before buying a a machine, if you are not careful all your print revenue will be gone in running cost.

Good luck.

[Steff Davison]

Spandex have a couple of you tube videos, worth a look.

[Steff Davison]

Looks like he got what he paid for.

Havent got a clue what his business does from looking at the image.

[Steff Davison]

quote Robin Summers:

quote Peter Johnson:

Hi.

If I understand correctly, it actually doesn’t really make much sense why you would want the extra expense of a printer with all of the associated costs (inks, printheads, materials) to print a single colour image and then cut it out? Why not just carry on cutting them out of single colour vinyl?

I understand that the time involved in weeding out cut vinyl is greater than just print/cut, but for the extra cost, it doesn’t really make sense.

It sounds like we both started the same way. All I did was make cut vinyl decals for many years. But when I decided to invest in my printer, it was with the thought of producing totally different products to add to my range; full colour canvas prints, wraps etc. And since then, I have learned to do many more things. But never to basically reproduce/replace my cut vinyl decals with printed ones. Just supply the old design as a printed sticker.

Hope I didn’t misunderstand what you are asking.

Pete J.

I had a feeling this would be the case, I had this thought myself. My idea was exactly that to reproduce the decal designs as a sticker as I thought it would be a lot quicker to do this via print and cut, which in turn would allow me to sell more.

I would still like to invest in a printer as like you said it allows for many more marketplace opportunities. Surely a printer and no laminate/transfer paper wouldn’t cost that much more than decals with transfer paper?

Say if I printed a full colour photo at a foot length by 60cm wide, what would you say the cost of that would be just in ink costs?

Thanks,
Rob

I too started off with just a vinyl cutter, I didnt think about a printer until I got to a certain volume of business with cut vinyl. Printing will not replace cut vinyl, its a different product in my opinion, in your market. If you were producing fine detail car window decals then I can see the value in white on clear. Its a big investment just to satisfy that product niche.

As for how much, some on here will tell you its got to be costed out at £60 m2 or you wont make any money, well thats one view, I suppose if you only print 20m2 a week they may have a point. Online printed decals is getting tougher, sellers are finding it tough to maintain margins and volumes, be careful.

Oh and good luck

[Steff Davison]

Thank you for the recommend. I was tempted to buy a low mileage Versant 2100, but its a bit like cutting a piece of cheese with a chain saw for what I want to do. Xerox isnt the type of set up I am looking for, its more of an "art market" machine I have my eye on.

Thanks Steff

[Steff Davison]

I think you have to get rid of her straight away.

She sounds as though she is an alcoholic (which is unfortunate) and couldnt stop even if she wanted to.

[Steff Davison]

Its just the way of the world nowadays, helped along by that cockney out for nowt merchant Dominic Littlejohn (names have been changed to protect the innocent!) no doubt.

[Steff Davison]

I dont need any add on equipment for this set up, its fairly straight forward, I want to mainly process card stock (275-325g)
and I can convert it with my laser set up. Its mainly to see if there is a market, if it works then I will buy more specialist kit, if it doesnt work then I will use the machine as and when. I dont need 3 years to find out which scenario it will fall into. Thats why I would prefer that I can walk away whenever I like, if I pay slightly more, then I pay slightly more. If 2-3p a copy means the difference between success and failure I might as well not bother starting. It just seems odd that a higher level of cover results in a lower cost ( apparantly) of a print.

Thank you for the advice,I will be going to have a look on Tuesday.

[Steff Davison]

Well to put this into perspective, I have been running my own business for approx 4 years. After the first year, working maybe 80-90 hour weeks I was earning maybe £2.00 an hour I can remember paying the service engineer £350 for a mornings work servicing my Summa(I thought I was in the wrong business). I had to do everything, the design, weeding etc etc.

Was I worth more than £2 an hour those first 12 months? I like to think so, but that was the price of learning and starting a business from nothing, I threw meters of media away, I "lost" meters of work on the weeding table I lost hours of time because I had to learn everything from scratch. But if I messed up it cost me money, and it was money I could ill afford to lose. If I had the experience that you posses now when I started then, although my hourly rate wouldnt have been much better, that experience would have saved me hours of time and maybe £2,000 worth of media and other materials

Is my story unique? I think everyone here who works for themselves can tell of similar "early" experiences. Fortunately I lived at home and there was always food on the table etc etc. But if I hadnt been at home with the lack of experience I had, then maybe I would have lasted 6 months before I ran out of cash, only low low overhead and a roof over my head allowed me to mess up and keep going.

My advice on this topic…keep learning your business, and save as much of the money you earn now as you possibly can, without any cash savings your options will be severely limited in the future.

Oh and my "extra" time over my paid hours now is zero, but I cost that time into the job cost at my going employee rate.

[Steff Davison]

Thanks for the reply……. dont know, but its stopped doing it now.

[Steff Davison]

I would spend the money……just think "Award winning Author" …..sort of has a certain ring to it…..

I bet JK Rowling’s got crystal stuff in one of her loos.

[Steff Davison]

quote Denise Goodfellow:

I questioned the price of £102 a roll. Hubby said it should be around £65. Rang the supplier, we’ve not had that price for 2 years…. Mentioned price increases etc….. Nearly £40 wtf.

Our bad for taking the eye of the ball, thinking the said price would always remain the same, tbh this is why we went with this company as their prices stayed the same, never had a letter every month like paper co used to send out.

Is it your fault? I believe a supplier should inform you if the original terms agreed have been changed, or are about to change. They dont want to inform you IMO as you may be more likely to look at other suppliers prices. and offerings.

I would lose all trust with that supplier if I were in your shoes. I dealt with a company 3 years ago who did the same thing (luckily only for 2-3 months before the increase was spotted) I will never deal with them again. They seemed offended that I was annoyed I wasnt informed of the increase..their stance was " we always have a price increase at that time of year"
I dont have a problem with companies increasing their prices, but let me know so I can decide whether I keep trading with you or not.

As I have said before…some of these companies couldn’t lie straight in bed.

[Steff Davison]

quote John Thomson:

10mm is a realistic max for my laser………you would need big power to do 30mm in a single pass at a reasonable speed.

John

What power would you need to cut that thickness in one pass?

[Steff Davison]

Its a bit thick for a laser really. I think it could be done but would need a few passes to get through it. I have a 120 watt machine and have been advised that 12 mm is about as thick as I should go at a realistic production speed.

I think you may be better off getting it mechanically cut and flame polished.

[Steff Davison]

quote Phill Fenton:

I agree with Rob. Charge what you need to charge and disregard the opposition as many are charging unrealistic prices that do not allow for a profitable and sustainable business. If you get the job great.. if you don’t then don’t worry, your opposition will be so busy making a loss they won’t have time to deal with more profitable work..

From the OP’s previous posts on pricing he doesnt know what a fair market price is. Well to find out what a fair market price is in your area research your market.
Know your competition, Im not saying you need to price match them, but not all businesses who have a lower selling price than you are working at a loss or are beer money cowboys.

Those "low ballers" want to take all your business, its how their business model works. Not all of them will eventually go away.

[Steff Davison]

Martin, you may find you get a better response in the members section, as the information shared here will be searchable with google.

I cant give you a price, its not the type of work that I do. However, I am a firm believer in knowing your market. Every sign maker here works under different conditions and as such their prices will differ.

Some sign makers may be able to produce and fit the job in half the time it takes you, its not a level playing field.

Its one reason why I don’t like the "work it all out for me" software. The software doesn’t know your market, it doesn’t know your customer. Have confidence in your pricing method, what you need is what you need. If you dont get the job then you might be too expensive, there again you might not be. But knowing what your market will stand will give you much more information.

Once you know your market then you can work backwards and find out where you are, and more importantly, where you need to be.

Good luck

[Steff Davison]

How many SKU’s?

If you want these really quickly then a printer with a narrow web digital press would be best (click and go single pass).
Someone with a machine like a Domino 610 or similar.

If you need more info let me know, I am at home and the details are at work.

I dont think Sov print will have one, they dont have enough depreciation on their balance sheet.

[Steff Davison]

I recently moved into a 5,000 sq ft unit after getting gazumped on a building that had been empty for 4 years! Moved from 1,800 sq ft mainly on a first floor, was on a decent-ish industrial estate ( howdens, screwfix etc)

I took on something that wasnt as pretty as I would have liked and needed tidying up, but at only £40 a week more than I was already paying and 2,500 sq ft of ground floor space it was a no-brainer really and I got some rent free months for "doing it up " I use about 70% of it at the moment, but am gradually filling it as I go, in the process of extending the Laser Cutting and sheet storage area at the moment by another 500 sq ft

Low cost space is more valuable to me than prime position.

[Steff Davison]

quote David Hammond:

The snag we have is running the OKI, with 12months left on it’s warranty, we have to buy the inks from Signmaster to maintain their warranty. Until recently there was only them supplying inks but now RGB UK are selling OKI’s too.

I can’t fault the OKI, it’s a belting machine, but with hindsight, sticking with Roland would mean inks & engineers are more accessible… I think it will be a switch back to Roland when the time comes.

I have never purchased anything from this company, however, you HAVE to buy ink from them to maintain the warranty!!?

Its not enough that you have to purchased OEM ink, it HAS to be from them. I am taking a bit of a guess here, but I imagine the exact same OEM ink can be purchased for less from an alternative authorised source.

That one condition of sale would have me walking away from the deal.

[Steff Davison]

Have you not considered that well known online auction site?

Split it into smaller lots (stock) if you think its worth £15 k more, and you are being honest with yourself, then I would look for an alternative sales method.

I know of a well known member here who sold off his unwanted kit on ebay to make room for some really big stuff. He got decent money from what I can remember.

Kind Regards
Steff

[Steff Davison]

You hit the nail on the head James, ETHICS…. some companies I have come across in the short time I have been in business couldnt lie straight in bed.

Integrity will win in the end.

[Steff Davison]

Thanks Iain.

[Steff Davison]

Karen, I followed the sales numbers. I started in a spare bedroom at home with a 10 year old summa. I concentrated on selling what the Summa could make,I didnt have any other choice.

As volumes grew I bought another Summa, moved into a 1200 sq ft unit, took on staff etc etc.

Invested all my profit back into my firm. I wanted a printer, so I waited until I had enough money from cutting vinyl to buy one for cash….. then got one on finance. The profits from my vinyl cutters easily paid the finance and I had the cash still to fund sales growth. If I didnt have enough free cash from cutting vinyl to easily cover the finance costs I would still be cutting vinyl. If the printer hadnt worked out I wouldnt have lost the farm the way I did it, I suppose Ive been lucky, helped by working 14 hour days 7 days a week.

I suppose the long and short of it is, invest where the money (sales numbers) tell you, and speculate with the profits your existing set up makes.

Good luck,

Steff