[John Childs]

I wouldn’t want to argue with an advertising executive of the highest calibre Martin, and I understand your reasoning but…..

Whilst the number of companies I would actively seek as clients nationally number maybe a thousand how can advertising to the masses be of any value to me, however tightened?

Also, my prospective clients don’t pluck suppliers out of the Yellow Pages. There is too much at stake for them. They take guidance from consultants, their highly paid marketing consultans, their leasing companies and other people in their own industry. These are the people I have to impress.

Anyway, I thought you said you were an EX Yellow Pages Salesman. 😀

[John Childs]

Another case of horses for courses I think.

I appreciate all the above comments and I am sure that they work well for the individual businesses concerned, however my own case is perhaps a little different. I am after a very specific type of client and don’t want, and don’t have the time to deal with, the “daft” enquiries which I feel that web site advertising would bring.

We don’t normally advertise at all, relying on recommendations and referrals, but if I were to do so I would want it focussed far more tightly on my area of interest and am more likely to place an ad in Fleet News or even, as we have done in the past, have a stand at the Fleet Motor Show, than shotgun type advertising on the web.

When I started this business I had an ad in Yellow Pages but, for the reasons above, did not renew after the first year.

[John Childs]

Lucky, lucky, lucky.

My experience of councils is that they have nothing usable. We did a job for Westminster Council and all my contact could come up with was the nastiest and smallest jpeg you can imagine. I digitised it as best I could but the jpeg was so bad I wasn’t sure if my work was spot on. Didn’t get any compaints though. 😀

One of our clients supplies road sweeping machines to all sorts of local authorities so if its alright with you Lorraine I will also keep a copy of the Richmond logo in case I need it in the future.

This has also taught me a lesson. Before spending hours digitising a logo, ask on here first!

[John Childs]

Steve…

“To convert fonts from PC to MAC format you need a small utility called TT Converter.You can download this from my site by clicking on the highlighted text (You have to be on a MAC to work with this software) !”

Isn’t coolinshots problem is that he is on a PC?

I still think yours and my offer is the best. Probably yours as you already have the font.

On the other hand…. If you downloaded the PC version FOC why can’t coolinshot do the same?

I’m getting confused. I think I’ll go and lie down.

[John Childs]

I run Apples. I don’t know how to convert a font to PC, but if you email it to me and tell me what text you need I can email you back a vector file.

At the very least I can post up a sample for others to see if they recognise it by another name.

[John Childs]

In my experience it doesn’t matter what you put in a method statement. Pages from the telephone book will suffice.

Nobody reads them.

🙁

[John Childs]

Good God. Are road rallies still legal? I used to compete on them years ago but thought they had been banned and all competitive motoring events moved on to closed stages and circuits. They were certainly dangerous enough.

We have a customer who uses loads of these, but we usually get our tame screen printer to do them for us on shaped white vinyl panels. We have just had 150 made for £129.00 and passed them on, with a mark up for ourselves.

They are not normally something we would do ourselves in cut vinyl but I have to say that if things were quiet and I had people standing around drinking tea I would consider doing it that way, although I would charge a bit more for them.

[John Childs]

Fair point Simon, although the dealer only got the bike in because I wanted it. Normally they wouldn’t stock that model although they could probably have disposed of it eventually, although they may haver had to take a loss.

My no deposit rule is not infallible and sometimes I have to give one but I will avoid it wherever I can.

Steve, the Pan is not my preferred weapon but it is excellent as a winter bike. My favourite machine is the F6C Valkyrie and I will only part with that when they pry it from my cold, dead hands. So as not to spoil the illusion, next Wednesday I am having a rental Wing delivered to my hotel in Tampa for a fortnights cruise around Florida and surrounding states. Roll on. 😀

[John Childs]

Well, I can see both sides of the issue here.

becky, in your last example, you were absolutely correct and, in similar circumstances, I would ask myself whether if the client was not prepared to pay up front, if he had any intention of paying at all. Once they have the goods they have no incentive to pay promptly, or at all.

On the other hand I personally hate paying for anything up front, and I want to see what I am getting before I part with my hard earned cash.

I recently bought a new Honda Pan European and refused to part with a penny before I collected it. Of course the dealer wasn’t having any of that and took offence because I pointed out that there was more chance of him going broke before delivery day than there was me and, if this had happened, there would have been no chance of me getting my money back from the receiver. In the end we compromised by me paying in cash on collection.

All too often we read in the papers about people losing deposits, sometimes quite considerable sums, and I don’t want to join them.

[John Childs]

Chalkie,

After a bit more research it would appear that I owe you an apology. Your image is the current one.

What threw me was that it is three colour instead of two, and the one I was looking for did not have the dark blue bit in the middle of the flame.

What I now realise is that, on vehicles, I only need the light blue and the red, and can omit the dark blue, because that is the colour of the van.

It just goes to show that however long you are in this business you can still get thrown by the simplest things and it also reminds me, once again, that I should keep my mouth shut until I know what I am talking about.

Using your file I have now been able to send visuals off to my customer, so thanks again.

John

[John Childs]

Perhaps its a subliminal message.

You all need driving lessons. 😀

[John Childs]

Nope, the colours are wrong. 🙁

But the outlines are the same so I can use it. 😀

Thanks Chalkie.

If anybody knows whether they use standard vinyl or if they are custom printed it would save me a lot of time and aggravation.

[John Childs]

Not me Lorraine. None of my customers would sit still for that. 🙁

[John Childs]

No. I’ve still got plenty of hair.

Teeth are a different matter though. 🙁

[John Childs]

Looks like more work for you guys because there is no way I am getting involved in yet another barrowload of bureaucracy.

[John Childs]

My wife makes curtains for a living.

She says it is amazing how often people order very expensive curtains only to expect her to fit them to fourpenny rails that don’t have a hope in hell of carrying the weight.

[John Childs]

You’ve got more patience than me Phill.

I would have said “sod it” and waited for them to call me.

[John Childs]

Well, you one price guys are going to hate me!

I’ll charge an individual customer more for no better than reason than that I don’t like their attitude. If I take an active dislike then God help them. 😀

My pricing will match my personal agenda and fairness doesn’t come into it.

[John Childs]

I guess that Lorraine has given you all you need Johnny, but if anyone else needs anything Honda go to their corporate image site at:-

http://www.hondaeu-ci.com

Enter an email address, register a password and it is all there.

[John Childs]

steve…

You are not wrong. But by the same token I have had customers of a similar size to Marks and Spencer whose reaction was, “I can save HOW much” when offered a very close match. However, that is a rarity.

It is usually fatal to ask because, in companies of that size, they all want to cover their behinds and are terrified of making a decision. A good ploy in those cases where they insist that colour is sacrosanct is to tell them to have a look in their stationery cupboards and see how many shades they can find amongst the various items in there. They often come back a bit sheepish. Because of this it can sometimes be better to just get on and do it without telling them, although obviously you have to be very close to get away with this.

I think the moral of this thread is that we have to weigh up each client, and the circumstances, individually and act accordingly.

To get back to the first post on this thread, I did a batch of Peugeot Experts for BP Heating Services about a year ago and just matched a vinyl to their Pantone numbers. There were no comebacks.
😀

[John Childs]

And never forget the good old standby….

The colour is correct sir, it’s just that your old stuff has faded because your previous supplier used cheap vinyl.

😀

[John Childs]

I recently did a batch of vans for a new client and matched a standard vinyl, as nearly as I could, to the Pantone number I was given. Although the match was not exact it was very close and I was pleased with myself for getting so near, especially as it was one of those duck egg colours which I find particularly difficult. When the first vans were delivered I got a phone call complaining that, alongside existing vans, my colour was miles out and should have been much darker.

The customer did not believe I was right and I had to send him a copy of the relevant page from his own corporate image documentation together with a sample of the material we had used. It turned out that their previous supplier had got it wildly wrong and nobody had noticed.

Matching colours in different materials is impossible. Differing opacity, reflectivity and other factors will always make it so and even what looks a good match in the workshop can be miles away when taken outside and viewed in daylight. I have compared some of the Avery 900 Pantone matches with my Pantone swatch and some of them are not even close appearancewise

I once had a contract for a job that needed paint and vinyl in the same colour. I sent the spec to ICI and to Autac for matching and sure enough when we did a van they did not look the same. Individually they were fine, but together – no chance.

Nowadays I have two methods of getting around the problem. I will either drive to wherever I can find an existing van and match, or I will pick the closest match I can and send samples to the client for approval. The dividing line between these two approaches depends on the distance and the importance of the client.

[John Childs]

And if its reflective vinyl, go for two weeks minimum.

Like other here, I have been caught in the past and now make it perfectly clear to the customer that I will accept no responsibility if they go against my advice.

[John Childs]

We have only recently started using Oracal, have been using some 751, and think that we may have struck gold. My staff that cut, weed and tape it like it. The lads that fit it like it. If they’re all happy and whinge free then I’m happy.

I’m not sure if it is Marcella’s problem, but in our experience we have found that manufacturers are always messing with their product, making slight alterations to adhesive, face film, backing paper etc. They never tell us this, but just release it into the supply chain on the assumption that they have improved their product. This sometimes proves to be wrong and they then get complaints and go back to the old formula.

It can be a pain when problems happen, but it is the price we pay for continual development which is, after all, a benefit to us. Progress is good and thoughts of working today with the materials we had ten years ago sends shivers down my spine.

[John Childs]

Gav, there’s more words here, but I’m not sure that the explanation is much clearer. I’ve done a very simple sketch, which might help, and as soon as I have the necessary privileges in this forum I’ll edit this post to include it. In the meantime I’ll try to answer any more questions.

Because the edge of a blade is angled, the pointed tip, which is the bit that comes into contact with the vinyl, and which does the actual cutting, is not aligned with the centre axis of a blade, but is off to one side. The distance between the centre axis, that the blade rotates around, and the tip is called the offset.

This, in general physics terms, is known as the castor effect and is important because unless it exists the blade, in operation, will not rotate to align itself with the direction of the cut. For the same reason the wheels on the bottom of your chair are offset, and so are the front forks on your bike. Riding “no hands” would be impossible without castor effect. On a cutter the distance is usually somewhere in the region of 0.25mm and 0.5mm. On chairs the distance is bigger, and on bikes larger still.

Drag knife cutters are built around this fact and the offset of the cutter and the offset of the blade should be identical. This is why you should always specify your cutter when ordering blades.

The ability to adjust the cutter offset is usually available in its set-up procedure. This is to enable you to make allowances for manufacturing tolerances in the blade and enable some fine tuning in the event of a less than perfect cut. Often the cutter software includes a test procedure, which comprises a series of square or rectangular cuts. When the offset is too low the squares do not close up properly and when it is too high the squares are distorted.

In theory the fine tuning procedure should be gone through every time we change a blade but I suspect that in practice most people, like ourselves, just set everything to default and don’t worry about it unless the machine is cutting less than satisfactorily. Machining tolerances are so good these days that for general vinyl cutting we can get away with that and only need to start playing around if we get problems trying to cut something particularly intricate.

[John Childs]

The offset is the distance between the point of the blade and it’s centre line, usually expressed in fractions of a mm. This is necessary so that a drag blade turns in its housing to follow changes in direction. It’s not necessary on a tangential cutter. I think that the amount of offset should be varied for cutting different materials but as I’ve only ever cut vinyl i couldn’t swear to that.

Pressure is exactly what it says, the force with which the blade is pushed down onto the vinyl. You also need to increase the pressure to compensate for blade wear. For instance on 5 year calendared vinyl we find that a new blade cuts well at 60g but that figure needs increasing over the life of the blade and we normally chuck them out when they need 120g to 150g to cut properly.

I hope that I’ve explained it clearly, but if not, please feel free to ask questions and I’ll do my best to answer them.

[John Childs]

We use a lot of wireless networking for our computers, but I also have never seen a cutter with an interface for it yet.

If wireless cutters ever come along I would suspect that they are more likely to be bluetooth rather than infra red, which is line-of-sight and very slow. Or maybe even 802.11g.

[John Childs]

Becky,

Try these folks:-

http://www.keyspan.com/

We use their adaptors for connecting our USB Apple computers to parallel cutters. Also Apple mini 8 pin din serial to Palm devices with 15 pin mini D connectors. They work well and we’ve had no problems.

[John Childs]

Can’t take your eyes off it for a moment can you Martin? 😀

[John Childs]

Graphityp UK Ltd
103 Mariner
Tamworth
Staffs
B79 7UL

Tel: 01827 63300

[John Childs]

Jill,

Try Robert Horne.

We supply a similar thing to one of our clients but we use a matt vinyl and they can write on that with no problems.

[John Childs]

Robert,

There are four photos on their way now.

I have sent both mails to the uksigngroup@hotmail.com account. Is that where you want them?

[John Childs]

We supply the graphics. There’s some prints and some cut vinyl in a custom colour.

Job needs doing ASAP. however, I’ve told them that next Tuesday is the earliest, which is what it will be if we have to do it ourselves. This is because to include the travel I would have to allow at least three days for the job and there isn’t that many days left in this week. 😕

A drawing is in the email. Also I have a completed van in the yard so I will take some photos and send them later.

This situation has arisen because our customer has changed vehicle supplier to one in Scotland and so there is a fair chance that there could be more of these.

Thanks

[John Childs]

Sparky,

My attitude to your earlier question is that if the customer pays you to digitise the lettering then the resulting artwork is his and you are obliged to let him have a copy.

On the other hand, if you don’t charge, then it’s yours.

[John Childs]

FatBob’s advice is good. Tar and glue remover is always our first port of call.

We do occasionaly find, though, that it doesn’t always work very well, which I put down to different types of adhesive on the original vinyl.

White spirit and (provided the H&S man isn’t looking) petrol can also be useful solvents.

[John Childs]

martin,

One of my lads bought on old mangle at a car boot sale for £2.00 😀

It works a treat and we can use it to make smooth faced signs much larger than number plates.

[John Childs]

We use Adobe Illustrator and send artwork as pdf files.

By generating pdfs from within Illustrator it is possible to send these files with editable vector artwork embedded, in fact that is the default, but we always make sure that this option is turned off. That way they can view but not copy.

We have, in the past, received pdf artwork from others where this has not been done and have been able to use the files. 😀

[John Childs]

Good questions, to which I don’t really know the answers.

Doing it the way I suggested above, then from our point of view it is purely a matter of time and therefore an hourly rate would be appropriate, so it will all boil down to complexity of design and how long it is going to take us.

I realise that this answer is useless and falls into the “how long is a piece of string” category but if you would like to email me the files I’ll take a look and come up with a definite fixed price.

Regards – John

[John Childs]

My set-up seems to be the other way round to everyone elses.

Because of the nature of our business we don’t do that much artwork and design but once it is done we want to cut it many times over a long period of time.

Therefore we do our artwork on one computer, save it to a server and then open and cut the files on any one of three computer/cutter combinations. Design on many and cut on one is exactly the wrong philosophy for us.

Whereas buying one expensive sign programme is not a problem it is obviously ridiculous to buy two more copies to put on computers that are only ever going to be used simply as plotter drivers.

We use Apple computers, so our software choices are more limited than PC users, but we design in Adobe Illustrator and have a copy of Illom Cutline on each of the three cutters to load, colour separate and cut the files.

Whilst perhaps not everyone?s ideal, the system works well for us. We can achieve most things in Illustrator that dedicated packages can do and whilst it may take a little longer our experience with the programme and the low amount of artwork we do means that this is not a significant problem. Cutline, although being a competent programme, is very easy to use – it makes Flexi-Cut look like nuclear physics – which means that new people can be trained to use it and be profitable very quickly indeed.

[John Childs]

Jill,

If you like we will happily cut the vinyl for you on a 1220 machine. To keep as much of the job, and therefore the profit, in your hands you could supply the material and weed and tape it. we could just cut it for you.

[John Childs]

Excellent advice Phill.

Some years ago I came to the same conclusion as yourself and since we have had two plotters one of the main reasons for a contract, continuity of business, has gone. Only the insurance element is left.

Also, the sums have changed. My original plotter was an Aristo AG50 which cost £5,750 and the maintenance was £575 per year, exactly 10%. Today a similar, or perhaps even better, plotter is available for half that price whilst maintenance contracts seem, from your post, to be about the same. That makes the cost today in the region of 20%.

We have recently done some cutting work for two local sign shops who found themselves in difficulties. We were happy to do this (we are not chasing the same customers) but it did leave them at our mercy and if our own workload was high then they had to wait.

[John Childs]

Bob,

I think that you have been misinformed. You don’t need to trade in motors to qualify for a motor traders policy. Indeed, our local village garage doesn’t buy or sell cars, they just repair them. The only difference between our requirements and theirs is that the engineering section is deleted from our policy as we don’t have compressors, hoists etc.

You will struggle to get a proper motor trade policy (even if the main man’s brother is a broker) because the insurance companies don’t like issuing them due to the potential for abuse of the great freedom they allow. Nevertheless, provided that you can demonstrate that that type of policy best matches your requirements you should, with a lot of negotiation, be able to get one. It is exactly the same getting hold of a set of trade plates, another motor trade benefit that is essential to us.

Despite that, and as you say, the list of restrictions gets longer every year. In years past we had practically no restrictions whatsoever but that has changed and we won’t see those days again.

You raise one of the current high profile aspects with Health and Safety. Whereas we have always taken great care in this area, and have attended to any potentially dangerous points promptly, this is no longer good enough. We now need to cope with all the bureaucracy and paperwork that goes with it. We need a written H&S policy statement and to document regular safety checks using the HSE?s five point plan as a basis.

We were told a month ago that we were no longer covered for anything that could have been prevented by the use of such a system. The stupid thing is that we are not required to do anything differently, just to have some paperwork to go with it. As soon as I find the time to spend a couple of hours on the word processor our cover will be reinstated. We don’t need a health and safety ticket, just a documented system.

We have recently had an inspection and I specifically raised two of the other points you mention. I was told that restrictions on heat sources were more concerned with naked flame, like welding equipment, and that our heat guns were not a problem. Similarly, I showed him the limited amount of chemicals we use, meths, thinners and degreasers, and was assured that they were fine.

Phill,

I don’t think that any of us could go to a direct insurer. Unless your name is Joe Average and you drive a Mondeo they are just not geared up to deal with you. Anything out of the ordinary and they are lost. I totally agree that a broker is the place to go.

[John Childs]

Thinking about it, this method is extremely common. Every car number plate is made like that.

[John Childs]

I did one for K Shoes some years ago on clear acrylic. Their logo and text was in normal cut vinyl on the front of the panel. The back was covered in blackout material with the same logo and lettering cut out of it.

When illuminated it gave a very nice halo to the graphics, and also a 3D effect, due to the 5mm separation of the thickness of the acrylic.

I thought it was brilliant and intended to experiment with different thicknesses of acrylic but never got around to it because we don’t do enough signs to waste the time. In fact we haven’t done another illuminated sign since then. 😆

If signs is your thing it is a cheap way of producing something a bit different.

[John Childs]

dicko…

The insurance certificate says CGU AND Norwich Union on it. (They keep changing their name ands I am not sure what the current incarnation is.)

Our broker is;-
Country Mutual (part of the NFU)
Stuart House, Elizabeth Street, Corby, Northants.
Tel: 01536 408800 Fax: 01536 402004
Our contact is Mike Blenkinsop

[John Childs]

I understand entirely Martin and have suffered the same dilemma. Being better than anyone else is not good enough on its own, you need to be able to convince the client.

I can see their problem too. They want something doing and have three or four of us signmakers around to look at the job. We all sit there and tell them that we are the best and most competent and professional. How can they tell which of us is telling the truth and which are the chancers? It’s a difficult call for them and a positive report about you from someone they know and whose opinion they respect is all that it will take to reduce their risk and swing it in your favour.

Keep plugging away, do the job right, and it will all come good in the end.

Good luck (that helps as well) 🙂

[John Childs]

Martin,

Don’t run away with the idea that we are a large national company. We are proof that you don’t need to be a large firm in big, flash premises to acquire some good clients. Our large customers never visit us and have no idea how large or small we are, the modernity of our premises or the shortness of the skirt of the girl in reception.* Just make them think that you are a professional outfit, only promise what you know you can deliver and then make good on those promises.

Do it right and they will recommend you to their business acquaintances and away you go. That’s the way it worked for me although I’m not trying to pretend that it is easy or quick, far from it. Nevertheless by acquiring two or three good clients per year, a not unreasonable target, for the last fourteen years we have been able to build up a good base.

Efficiency is the key and we achieve what we do with not too many people in cramped premises.

I won my first national customer a year or so after I started this business. It was a 300 van fleet (100 per year) and I had no employees, was working from my garage at home and they never knew.

Nevertheless, to get back to the point, we still have a lot of local clients with the one-offs so we are not totally divorced from reality. I take your points, and have experience of competitors using lower spec materials, but I still think that all other things being equal by being focussed we can probably get a van done quicker, and therefore cheaper, than a general signmaker.

Regards – John

* In fact we have no girl in reception and the female employees I do employ all wear jeans. 🙁

[John Childs]

martin…

We are almost all vehicle work too and will only make a sign when we absolutely have to, for instance, for an existing customer who we don’t want going anywhere else. Even then we will get a sub-contractor to erect it for us nine times out of ten. The reasoning is:-

We are lucky in having plenty of vehicle work and don’t need them. If business slackens off I would prefer to reduce the workforce than get involved in signs.

Quoting for signs is a pain and takes too much time on site visits, preparing visuals and working out prices.

We don’t get sign quotes accepted.

We are not geared up for it and every sign we do involves loading the kit into the van, getting on-site and finding we have forgotten something, or need a tool we didn’t bring, and returning to the workshop to collect it. Inefficient I know, but we don’t do enough of that sort of work to justify putting more effort and resources into it.

It’s cold up ladders.

Vans are a whole different matter:-

One visual and one quote and we can do a thousand vans. We have done 1600 vans in the last two years for our largest customer. Fair enough they are dead simple and not expensive but one of my fitters went to a Vauxhall dealership and fitted 53 in one long day. Another client has had us do 120 vans a year for the last twelve years, and all to the same design.

We are geared up to do it. Van in the workshop, bish bosh, take it out and bring in another.

A sign will last for years but a van is changed regularly. Even our smallest customer, a one man business, will be back in three years for another.

No advertising costs, no sales force costs, just the same customers coming back again and again.

I look at some of the posts on this board about members being undercut on price, which is usually put down to their competitors using inferior materials or shoddy methods. I wonder if this is always the case or whether sometimes it is because they are up against specialists. For instance, I would bet that we can do a van cheaper than most, whilst maintaining a fair profit margin, not because we turn out shoddy work but because we are more efficient at it. Our lack of success in sign work is probably because the reverse also applies.

[John Childs]

PERFECT TIMING for this thread.

I’ve just had one walk in. Amongst the usual stuff he wants the following on the side of his trailer which, he assures me, is a chinese proverb:-

“Remember, the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a cheap price is forgotten.”

He then goes on to tell me that he cannot afford to spend much and ask how cheap I can do it!

Don’t you just love them?

[John Childs]

Definately the right tactic.

Years ago a friend of mine, an agricultural engineer as it happens, told me he had stopped doing cheap jobs. His reasoning was that if he did a crap job the customer immediately forgot that it was cheap but that every morning when he stepped out of his farmhouse he saw the work and was reminded of what a crap job my friend had done. Definately not good business.

On the other hand, you need to be able to afford to take this stance by having a constant flow of good customers who are prepared to pay for quality work. If you haven’t got this then it is all academic anyway.

[John Childs]

We use both 3M Gold and the new Avery ones. Some of my boys prefer one and some the other.

I think personal preference plays a big part in this question.

[John Childs]

Multiple post edited out.

[John Childs]

Multiple post edited out.

[John Childs]

Multiple post edited out.

Sorry Robert, but it looks like during the recent site problem my data was going up the line but nothing was coming down. 😀

[John Childs]

FB…

I agree that using the ground is out of the question.

I am also sure that your method of lining your laser up with a major body swage will work, although each job would need to be assesed to see if the effort of setting up was worth the time.

As an example, we did four Astras on Friday but as the text was only in the side panel it was easy enough to get it straight. Other jobs we do would certainly benefit from using your method.

I think that it would be a last resort though for the reason that using that method every job would be a one off as the laser would need setting up for each side of each individual vehicle. On a hundred van job fifteen minutes set up time will take twenty five hours, which is a big cost penalty. We also need to consider what happens after a vehicle leaves our workshop. If we can provide dimensioned drawings with parts for accident damage repair it helps the bodyshop to make a repair correctly.

Finally we prefer, wherever possible and practical, to line up the graphics with any black body mouldings rather than a swage. Our reason is that as viewing distance increases the swages tend to become less noticeable whereas the black bodytrim still stands out.

[John Childs]

Bob,

The difference is that with a laser level you will get a line that is level with the ground and therefore looks straight to oncoming cars. With the string you get the shortest distance between the two points and not a straight line.

The strings a bit like transatlantic planes going via Scotland to get to America. Not a straight line, but the shortest distance.

I’m not explaining myself very well here so if I can find the time I’ll do a demo with some pictures. With my internet skills though I’ll probably have to ask rob nicely to post it.

[John Childs]

martin,

Yes, it is the curve of the bonnet that makes the text smile or frown. We too curve the text to counteract this but it is always a matter of trial and error with consequent waste of time and materials.

I reckon that with a laser level we can just set it up and mark the bonnet in what we know will be a perfectly straight line and then bend the text to fit the marks. Stand back and it should look straight first time every time.

As always, when dealing with compound curves, it will only ever look right when viewed from one angle, but as these things are intended to be viewed from oncoming cars then that’s the angle from which it needs to look correct.

Obviously you would need to check that the van is sitting level from side to side, which is not always the case on used vans, but as 95% or more of our work is on new vehicles that is not a problem for us.

This method will also allow bonnet graphics to be fitted in a standard, measurable way, which is important to us, to ensure repeatability.

I hope that explains it.

Regards – John

[John Childs]

I’m going to get one.

I’m not worried about the sides of vans, even difficult ones like Astra and Vito. The body lines are there and there is nothing I can do about it and I have to work around them.

My problem is bonnets. I’ve lost count of the number of times I have fitted a line of text and then torn it off because it looks like it is smiling or frowning. This is particularly the case where the curves are not linear.

I think a laser level should help us get the text to look straight, whatever the shape of the panel.

[John Childs]

I can’t get in Robert. 🙁

[John Childs]

We have run a Summa T1010+ for six years with no problems at all. We also have a Roland, I think PC50, which has also not caused any trouble.

The Summa is better built and more robust than the Roland. Also the Summa software better suits the way we work.

Tried a Graphtec about eight years ago but got rid of it because it wouldn’t track more than a couple of metres. However, apart from tracking, it was a great machine. I would think that they have cured the fault now and I would consider another.

[John Childs]

We use two 8′ x 4′ tables covered in 5mm foamex. They work well, but need changing fairly often.

I’ve wondered about glass in the past and having read some of the above posts will probably try it out on one bench.

I will go for 6mm toughened as we are used to handling this stuff in the course of our normal work (we cover wardrobe doors in etched film). Anybody tempted to use laminated glass should be aware that it breaks much more easily under bending.

[John Childs]

Hi Rocket, and welcome.

[John Childs]

I had an Aristo AG50 which I bought twelve years ago. It put out an awful lot of work and made me an incredible amount of money before being put out to grass two years ago.

I only replaced it because things had moved on and I needed something wider and faster. Even now, I’ve given it to a friend of mine who is still putting it to useful work.

We are currently using a wide Roland for friction stuff and a Summagraphics T1010+ for either friction or sprocketed vinyl. Both do the job but the Summagraphics has better software.

[John Childs]

Martin,

The Gold Wing is a proper bike, but a little extreme, and a few of its riders take things to excess and invite ridicule. We like to make sure that they get it. 🙂

Seriously though, biking is a very wide sport, varying from the fully equipped Gold Wing with sidecar and trailer down to a fifty year old BSA Bantam. To each his own and we all enjoy it in our own way and in accordance with our own preferences. However, amongst bikers there is always an element of friendly banter about bike choice, and the majority take it in good part. When push comes to shove we are all on the same side.

Steve,

I may have to get a Gold Wing! My wife has ridden on the back of one and now thinks it’s the only way to travel. Fortunately I have two other bikes so I get my own choices as well.

I have a similar list to the above for Harley riders and when I get a few minutes I will type that in also in the interests of balance.

[John Childs]

Hmmm.

We don’t erect signs. We will only ever make them for a really good customer and even then get a local specialist to put them up so my attitude is biased towards vehicle work.

We will always do fit only work. Whilst we will not actively canvass the end user for the supply side it is surprising how often we end up getting it. Sometimes after a few weeks and sometimes it takes two years but we often end up doing it. Clients fall out with suppliers all the time, sometimes for the silliest of reasons, but when they do their usual first call for a replacement is to the company that are already working on their vehicles. We have acquired some of our best clients this way.

As for doing work for other signmakers, again we will always do it for them, and at reasonable prices, because we never know when we will need a favour in their area. We are often asked to travel considerable distances to fix an accident repaired vehicle which might only be half an hours work but involve a ridiculous amount of travel costs. It only makes sense to try to find a local company to fit for us as it benefits us, our client and the fitting company can earn a fair return. We have no problem in paying a reasonable price but take a dim view of being ripped off by fellow signmakers. Surely one of the aims of a group such as this is to help each other.

Another example, six months ago, we did a batch of vans for a new client and made a stupid spelling error where one word, five 40mm letters, needed changing on each van. We caught all of the vans at the dealiers before they were delivered, except for two. Needless to say these two were in Scotland, which was about an eight hour drive each way for us. I got onto Yellow Pages and found the nearest sign company to our client, explained my problem and they said to send the new lettering to them and get the client to run the vans in to their factory. They fixed my mistake and then refused to charge me. Needless to say, if that signmaker needs a job doing in our area we will bend over backwards to help.

Having written all that screed, if there is anyone in the Winchester area prepared to do a bit of fitting work, get in touch.

[John Childs]

Top Ten Reasons Why Gold Wing Riders Don’t Wave Back

10. Wasn’t sure whether the other rider was waving or making obscene gestures.

9. Afraid might get frost-bite if hand is removed from heated grip.

8. Has arthritis and the last 400 miles has made it difficult to lift arm.

7. Reflection from etched windscreen momentarily blinded him.

6. The espresso machine just finished.

5. Was asleep when the other rider waved.

4. Was in a three way conference call with stockbroker and accessories dealer.

3. Was distracted by odd shaped blip on radar screen.

2. Was simultaneously adjusting the air suspension, seat height, CD player, seat temperature and satellite navigation system.

1. Couldn’t find the “auto wave back” button on dashboard.

[John Childs]

Well, Martin, wrapping vinyls are a fairly recent innovation for all of us so it doesn’t really matter how long you have been in the business. I am only going on the same sources as yourself, namely my own limited experience and what I have been told, which is mostly by suppliers rather than other signmakers, so my sources are probably less reliable than yours from a practical point of view.

Your point on price is a good one and not something I had thought about.

[John Childs]

Would it be too cynical of me to enquire whether wrapping vinyl is just ordinary cast material with an extra handful of plasticiser thrown into the mix?

[John Childs]

There’s one in my garage but I can’t get it under the scanner. Sorry.

[John Childs]

Richard from Raccoon…

Could you give me a call please on 01536 771772

Thanks – John

[John Childs]

Nice work.

[John Childs]

Johnny, I’ve got the annual report from Heywood Williams PLC who actually make this sort of stuff.

To be honest I don’t think there’s much in it that you can use, its more concerned with pictures of the machines making the product, and a smiling chairman, but if you like I will happily post it to you on the off chance that something will be useful.

[John Childs]

Martin, you may well be right. I have been involved in the motor trade all my working life and am perhaps more aware than many of the dangers of having custody and control of customer vehicles.

Nevertheless I would expect that our competitors of a similar size should be aware of the need for cover but seriously doubt that they all have it.

I would, however, recommend that any sign shop, no matter how small, assess the risks in their own particular instance and their exposure to a claim. A £25k van with perhaps another £1k of racking, £500 of graphics and maybe even up to £10k of, say, spare central heating spares in the back can make a big dent in the bottom line in the event of a total loss in a fire.

[John Childs]

Neil…

It is a constant source of wonder to me that a customer will quite happily leave a quarter of a million poundsworth of vans with us without checking whether there is adequate insurance cover. In fourteen years nobody has ever even asked. I do wonder whether some of our competitors are cutting corners in this area.

I don’t know if you can get a Motor Trade policy with third party cover but for me an even greater advantage than the one umbrella thing is that we can all drive anything belonging to anybody at any time and its all fully comprehensive, provided that they are driving with permission. That even extends to getting somebody to drive me home from the pub when I have imbibed a little too freely. The only exception is my biggest bike, which is restricted to me alone.

We have never had to inform anybody when we change vehicles, just give them a list of the ones we own at renewal time. However, I understand that with a new EU directive this is going to change from early in the new year. We will then have to notify any changes as they happen on a web site somewhere.

All our equipment is covered whether office, signmaking, tools, personal belongings etc etc.

There are very few insurance companies doing this sort of policy these days but ours is with the Norwich Union. Available at any good broker near you.

[John Childs]

Thanks for that Phill. Perhaps I should try your insurance company next year. It sounds cheap.

For me the beauty of a motor trade policy is that everything can be under one roof. We have the buildings, equipment, business interruption, public and employee liability and all the normal guff. On road risks we have six permanent staff plus any number of unspecified casual drivers. We can have as many as forty customer vehicles here overnight although a realistic average is probably about a dozen so we have cover for £200,000, which is probably not enough.

For this I had to write a cheque yesterday for £11563.66. To be fair we did have a couple of minor accidents last year.

There is one benefit in that myself, my wife, two children and my parents are covered for personal use at company expense which I suppose saves us a bit.

[John Childs]

Phil…

Is that just for Road Risk cover for you personally?

I am paying an awful lot more than that.

[John Childs]

Insurance. A subject close to my heart having paid my premium today. 🙁

Presumably most of us are working on vehicles so how do others insure them whilst in their custody and control? We have a motor trade policy, but is that the only way?

[John Childs]

I’ll put it under the one that says:-

“A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part”

[John Childs]

Historically 3M Gold but we have just started using the Avery blue ones.

Plastic on one edge and felt the other. Best of both worlds.

[John Childs]

Hi Alex.

Had a run down for the bike rally in Faro this year then cruised back up the coast to Porto, inland to Braganca then back into Spain and the ferry home. Great holiday.

Drank gallons of Sagres and a fair bit of Port. One complaint though was that I didn’t get to have any Sardines.