ACHIEVING CORRECT SIGN COLOURS

[Henry Barker]

Hi Steve,

You don’t mention what vinyls you use. Avery list Pantone equivalents in their new 900 series Supercast colour swatches.

Avery also now will match any colour in a minimum order of one full width 50m roll of 900 series.

It is quite hard to match a system (pms) that was developed for the printing industry, using gloss vinyls.

If you or anyone else is interested, you can go into the site of one of our larger suppliers http://www.systemtext.se and when the main side has loaded click “folier” and you will come to a side where you cross reference all the Avery range as well as Multi-Fix to PMS/Pantone equivalents.

I find mixing paint is much easier with paint companies that can read paint chips or samples.

Over here alot of large corparations like Volvo, Saab, SAS etc have their colours mixed and already available at our suppliers in vinyl, and I have found in ” corporate identities” that often an Avery or 3M vinyl is suggested.

[steve]

HATS OFF TO SAAB SAS AND VOLVO i wish many other corporate blue chip companies would write exterior signage specs into their corporate id documents hats off also to Avery and 3M for making pantone matches in their 900 range – TOO EXPENSIVE TAKES 2 WEEKS TO GET IT AND IT WILL OUTLAST MOST VEHICLES BY 7 YEARS also 95 per cent of small businesses in the UK will not use a 50 metre roll of anything let alone a highly expensive gloss arm and a leg product made to match (sort of) a world colour system- problem- you lay out £1500 on a 50 metre roll of sticky backed gold dust and the invoice for it arrives next day— PAY IN 30 DAYS OR WE WILL NAIL YOU TO A STAKE AND BURN YOU ALIVE…. your client calmly pays you in 90 days!! disaster– then our dear chancellor slaps yet another stealth employment tax on small businesses is there any more room in Sweeden Henry for a couple of hundred hard working signmakers ?? and would the last business to go bust in the UK kindly PUT BIG LIGHT OFF!!

[Henry Barker]

I was just trying to illustrate a point, any company that attaches so much importance to its identity must also be prepared to pay, and in the case of companies like BP Shell etc they expect top products, as their identity is so important

THe nice thing about using Avery is that their colour range is pretty consistent through the ranges. You can match a 900 colour in 800 or 700 series, although of course 900 carries a broader range. I stock mainly 800 series at work, which works well here, and we have 250 rolls of vinyl in stock. I tend to buy full width split a log 750mm + rest which covers most jobs, obviously they are not all 50m we tend to but 50, 20 or 10.

Check out that link and you will see pantone matches on most of the ranges shown….which is a big help.

If in the UK people are not prepared to pay, you can’t then offer the service…as the old cliché goes ” you get what you pay for”.

I think our job is to show whats available so the customer can then make a choice.

Another problem today, with vinyls getting thinner and thinner is with their opacity, when using multi-layered graphics, colours change again even if they were OK from the start on their own on a white background!

[John Childs]

I recently did a batch of vans for a new client and matched a standard vinyl, as nearly as I could, to the Pantone number I was given. Although the match was not exact it was very close and I was pleased with myself for getting so near, especially as it was one of those duck egg colours which I find particularly difficult. When the first vans were delivered I got a phone call complaining that, alongside existing vans, my colour was miles out and should have been much darker.

The customer did not believe I was right and I had to send him a copy of the relevant page from his own corporate image documentation together with a sample of the material we had used. It turned out that their previous supplier had got it wildly wrong and nobody had noticed.

Matching colours in different materials is impossible. Differing opacity, reflectivity and other factors will always make it so and even what looks a good match in the workshop can be miles away when taken outside and viewed in daylight. I have compared some of the Avery 900 Pantone matches with my Pantone swatch and some of them are not even close appearancewise

I once had a contract for a job that needed paint and vinyl in the same colour. I sent the spec to ICI and to Autac for matching and sure enough when we did a van they did not look the same. Individually they were fine, but together – no chance.

Nowadays I have two methods of getting around the problem. I will either drive to wherever I can find an existing van and match, or I will pick the closest match I can and send samples to the client for approval. The dividing line between these two approaches depends on the distance and the importance of the client.

[signscript]

very common problem, i used to do loads of ChemDry Vans, and i found 2 Metamark Colours, that were so close to the pantone colours that i couldnt find anyone that could tell the difference.

Its worth having a pantone colour swatch (not cheap but usefull)
and swatches for Avery, 3M, Metamark, Oracle, Grafityp, Intercoat, Mactac, MultiFix etc etc….

and if you need to match a colour without going to the expence of buying a 50m roll of Pantone Vinyl… you just sit there and find one that matches.

[Robert Lambie]

quote :

any company that attaches so much importance to its identity must also be prepared to pay

exactly, if we are faced with the same situation we give two options.. we give them the closest match we can find in regular vinyl and quote them on it. if we have to have it matched or have to buy in a very exspensive brand at 50m then they will just have to pay through the nose…
9/10 end up going for the close match. the price difference out-weighing their concern for such a minor colour difference.

saying that, depending on how big the customer is and the very good chance you will get the contract you have to dig deep into your own pocket for the gamble.
we once had to purchase a roll of 3M reflective, £5000 for 50 metres 1230 wide. we didnt have the contract but had to do only one cab unit as a sample to the head office of the work we would provide if we sealed the contract. luckily enough we know somone in william smith that sold us all that we needed to o the job.. im glad to say we also picked the contract up for scotland and north england… 😉

[John Singh]

Same here Rob
Give ‘um as near as damn it’
Send a few swatches in the post and let them choose

Oh yeah! Don’t forget the;

‘Pheeeeeeeeeeeew! Tut tut…… We’d have to get a whole roll of this stuff specially made up to match……. so that we can do your house number….sweetheart.
…….and it could take some time for the order to be delivered….just how soon did you say you wanted it???

Generally does the trick! 😀

John

[John Childs]

And never forget the good old standby….

The colour is correct sir, it’s just that your old stuff has faded because your previous supplier used cheap vinyl.

😀

[steve]

I get your drift lads but try telling that to the board of Marks and Spencer when discussing the graphics on their forthcoming Annual General Meeting “you will have to accept near enough your corporate col,,,,,,,,, smack…… thats me hitting the deck after being thrown out of the production meeting never again to put dark green on ivory!!

[John Singh]

Your dead right Steve!

If your talking about a large contract withs Marks & Sparks or the like, you’ll not only walk the tight rope you’ll do it blindfold and on a monocycle (angel) (angel) (angel)

But for the small order it could just end up you actually not making a profit
at all and ending up with stuff thats not likely to move ‘cos it is such a queer colour anyway’ (hot)

John 😀

[John Childs]

steve…

You are not wrong. But by the same token I have had customers of a similar size to Marks and Spencer whose reaction was, “I can save HOW much” when offered a very close match. However, that is a rarity.

It is usually fatal to ask because, in companies of that size, they all want to cover their behinds and are terrified of making a decision. A good ploy in those cases where they insist that colour is sacrosanct is to tell them to have a look in their stationery cupboards and see how many shades they can find amongst the various items in there. They often come back a bit sheepish. Because of this it can sometimes be better to just get on and do it without telling them, although obviously you have to be very close to get away with this.

I think the moral of this thread is that we have to weigh up each client, and the circumstances, individually and act accordingly.

To get back to the first post on this thread, I did a batch of Peugeot Experts for BP Heating Services about a year ago and just matched a vinyl to their Pantone numbers. There were no comebacks.
😀