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Price It Sign Guide, is it worth it?
Hi,
Is the price it guide worth the cost to newbie to help them find their feet in market and the right price levels?
Thanks
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58 Replies
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yes
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yes
Peter -
cost?? isnt it free???
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No,
it used to be free, and was supported by advertising.
Now it cost around 20 qid, comes in a nice folder, and also on disc.It is what it says though, a guide, but it gives good average examples,
Not a fortune to spend,
Peter
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I got 2, one for me and one for my sales manager… definitely worth it and it’s hardly going to break the bank.. also gives you a major insight into what you should be charging, and it helps me construct quotes, which we all know unless you have done it thousands of times, your going to need a little help on 🙂
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I have just ordered mine – forgot all about it till i read this posting.
The guide is well worth the money in times of doubt when a customer bargaining stand your ground.
its also very handy when you got a customer no prepared to wait for a price and save you getting it miles out when totting up in your head.
get your money out and get it bought
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I already have the free version but was wondering is the paid version more comprehensive??
what does the cd include?
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The newer version is obviously more up to date, don’t have both so can’t compare.
Just remember although it can help a lot it is only a guide and you should still do a bit of research to find out what the general prices are in your own area.
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That’s the problem I’d be up against, in my neck of the woods, some of my local competition will literally work for nothing.
I’ve not done this full time for over 10yrs, but if I was, I can honestly say I couldn’t earn enough to survive. I love it as a hobby/extra money, but it can be no more than that.
I would be interested to know how much others on here could charge for say, a Combo van. Nothing specific, just a ball park figure for two side, bit on the back, name on the front.
I’ll start, I could get a £100 for that, if I tried for more, anyone other than my regular customers would go elsewhere and easily get it done cheaper.
25yrs ago, I’d have got £125 and been able to do two a day even with the slower cutters. On top of this I used to generally get a tip.
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I would like to know what else makes this guide worth the money, apart from suggesting you should be selling your products for about "x" amount, Something i would have thought most people could work out for themselves… maybe I’m just a sceptic but paying 20 odd pounds for basically market research information in a ring bound folder does not sound good value to me.
No offense ment to the publishers or to anybody who has bought the guide.
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Bob, think that sort of problem exists all over not just in your neck of the woods, yes there are people here that will quote a job for nothing more than beer money but I don’t concern myself with them.
If they are happy doing that let them get on with it, if a customer tells me he can get the job done for half the price down the road then good for him but I bet it won’t be a like for like job.When I have a look around to see what others are charging I will only check the companies I know do a reasonable job and don’t bother with those that I know will work for nothing.
OK I am very lucky in that I don’t have to rely on this business to live, I was medically discharged from the Royal Navy and the Invaliding Pension I get is pretty good so yes I can pick and choose a bit what I do but having said that I know I could be a lot busier than I am if I wanted to.
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So, without sounding too pushy, how much do they reckon we should be looking at to write a Combo??
With regards to £20 for a bit of market research, I had to pay £600 for a one day course/exam, with another business I have! All I got for that, was a certificate to say that I’d passed it. What’s more, if I worked for that company, I’m qualified to teach it, all I’d need is purely to do a refresher.
Many years ago, I have a EYEC workshop/unit, it was run by the county council to help young people in business. I only to the unit because it ensure me getting the council work. The business advisor there used to work my prices out for me. This suited me fine, as I would never have had the nerve to charge that sort of money.
This went on for about 3yrs till the council dropped me because I was far too expensive. 😕 Not the worst thing that could have happened, it’d have too me ten years to earn that a sensible prices.
Still it must work, or you guys wouldn’t be using it. I’d love an example costing to be posted.
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quote Bob Clarkson:That’s the problem I’d be up against, in my neck of the woods, some of my local competition will literally work for nothing.
I’ve not done this full time for over 10yrs, but if I was, I can honestly say I couldn’t earn enough to survive. I love it as a hobby/extra money, but it can be no more than that.
I would be interested to know how much others on here could charge for say, a Combo van. Nothing specific, just a ball park figure for two side, bit on the back, name on the front.
I’ll start, I could get a £100 for that, if I tried for more, anyone other than my regular customers would go elsewhere and easily get it done cheaper.
25yrs ago, I’d have got £125 and been able to do two a day even with the slower cutters. On top of this I used to generally get a tip.
Bob
my minimum charge for a small basic van is £140. and I can do at least six a day if it was fleet work. the sign guide recommends basic small van at £102. going up to £253 for a full colour layout, (not a wrap just a metre or two of print)
its not far off as a guide, and gives estimates for boards and banners by the square ft or mbut for what it costs (beer money) well worth it
I recommendd any sign firm should buy a copy, even if just to compare.Andy-m, Yes it is only a bit of market research, but how much research can you do yourself for that money?
Peter
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quote Peter Normington:Bob my minimum charge for a small basic van is £140. and I can do at least six a day if it was fleet work. the sign guide recommends basic small van at £102. going up to £253 for a full colour layout, (not a wrap just a metre or two of print)
its not far off as a guide, and gives estimates for boards and banners by the square ft or mbut for what it costs (beer money) well worth it
I recommendd any sign firm should buy a copy, even if just to compare.Andy-m, Yes it is only a bit of market research, but how much research can you do yourself for that money?
Peter
I agree with Peter……..come on guys it’s £20 quid!!! That said it is only a guide.
But, it just reassures as to what your charging. You don’t have to stick to it but it does help. I don’t use it all the time only when I price something and I think I may be out a little either way.
I’d be looking for between £130 and £150 for a basic van job but if somebody
says they can get it for £90 down the road I say go ahead. -
Like others have said I think it is worth having and at £20 it’s not going to break the bank, go without a fish supper for a couple of days and it’s paid for.
Andy, I’m not sure everyone is capable of working out what they should be selling their products for. Especially someone who is just starting out, one of my biggest problems is that I’m not naturally a business person so when it came to sales, marketing, general running of the business etc etc this is where I had most of my problems.
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quote Peter Normington:No,
it used to be free, and was supported by advertising.
Now it cost around 20 qid, comes in a nice folder, and also on disc.It is what it says though, a guide, but it gives good average examples,
Not a fortune to spend,
Peter
I agree, £20 is not a lot but i won’t buy it out of principle, they first approached me at sign uk in 06 or 07 it was free so like any self respecting person with an ounce of Scots blood, i signed up, never turned up so i filled out the online forms again, and again, and again.
if they can’t get me one for free, i’m not risking paying not to get one delivered!
😀
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your loss Hugh.
I think Paul (not they) did the guide after reading posts on pricing on the boards, he is a signmaker, not a commercial publisher.
I believe his reasoning was to give the industry some guidelines, and help people with pricing, based on the average of what others charge.If you took his guide as gospel, you would probably not make a loss, but it does depend on your circumstances, and how you market your products etc.
Peter
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don’t mean to slate the guy Peter, just a bit tongue in cheek if anything, i guess i’ve got thus far ok so prob past point where it would be of great use to me, I might buy it and be proved wrong one day!
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Hugh
I have been in the industry a few years, and for what it costs, I cant justify not buying it….
I can send you my old copy if you like, bit out of date, but I did get it free!bloody scottish tight r ses 😉
Peter
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well i can do a full designed van for £10…………….ON COMPUTER but I charge another £150 to make and fit 🙂 Why not! every other business charges for design services and mine range from £10 simple design to £40 on more complex illustrator paths and cut outs. I’m not prepared to work like a muppet for nothing and neither should anyone else. If we all undercut each other the price cqn only go one way >DOWN which means we all go out of business and leave all the work to a selective few!
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My thoughts are that Paul is doing a great job. A guide like this is invaluable for anyone just starting out in the business who is vulnerable to underpricing and devaluing our industry.
£20 probably doesn’t even cover his costs!!
Personally I operate a minimum order value of £18 + VAT – to keep the time wasters at bay and to cover the 1/2 hour or so it takes me to process the simplest of enquiries.
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quote Peter Normington:Hugh
I have been in the industry a few years, and for what it costs, I cant justify not buying it….
I can send you my old copy if you like, bit out of date, but I did get it free!bloody scottish tight r ses 😉
Peter
Hi Peter,
i’d be interested in seeing one, it certainly can’t hurt. i can compare prices with old invoices to see if i’m far out. I seem to lose jobs for being too dear lately (though i;ve not increased pricing methods for years),
let me know if you want the postage, either that or i’ll chuck a few bob in a charity pot!
I don’t think i’ve ever really been accused of being too cheap, i’ve been cheaper but not by much anyways… tell a lie… once by another signmaker who quoted on a similar job but i thought they were far too high!
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quote Phill Fenton:My thoughts are that Paul is doing a great job. A guide like this is invaluable for anyone just starting out in the business who is vulnerable to underpricing and devaluing our industry.
£20 probably doesn’t even cover his costs!!
Personally I operate a minimum order value of £18 + VAT – to keep the time wasters at bay and to cover the 1/2 hour or so it takes me to process the simplest of enquiries.
Phil £35 is our minimum, but we are further south….
Peter
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quote Peter Normington:quote Phill Fenton:My thoughts are that Paul is doing a great job. A guide like this is invaluable for anyone just starting out in the business who is vulnerable to underpricing and devaluing our industry.
£20 probably doesn’t even cover his costs!!
Personally I operate a minimum order value of £18 + VAT – to keep the time wasters at bay and to cover the 1/2 hour or so it takes me to process the simplest of enquiries.
Phil £35 is our minimum, but we are further south….
Peter
I have a £30 min charge (which I apply with discression), that covers an hours labour and fiver for the sake of it. most enquiries take an hour by the time you’ve stopped what you were doing and dealt with it! I do obviously do cheaper stuff which turns a profit but tend to custer them together to make an afternoons work out of lots of bits, it’s just as profitable, more so perhaps, but means i’m only in the recycle vinyl bin once a week rather than every day!
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I think that as a fledgling business I wouldn’t be without it. However I do mostly cost my jobs based on material and time spent. I basically worked out how much I wanted to earn an hour and how much my overheads where and went from there (great piece of advice from the great book of "phil")
So as an example my overheads are £1000 a month, and due to marketing and running the business I only have 5 production hours a day available (excluding printing time)
based on a 4 week month, £ 1000 divided by 50 = £20 an hour, I need to earn £20000 a year to keep mrs happy at the moment so 15000 divided by 1250 = £16 an hour so that £36 an hour I need to earn out of those 25 hours a week to pay myself and run the business…
Based on that a basic layout small van with say £30 worth of materials, then 3 hours work layout,tape, print and application (assuming the van is clean and ready to go) would cost £138.. which is roughly about where the guide comes in at (I do pop a bit on top for complications but only about £20, allows for material screw ups) so it didn’t take me long to realize that I can give the guide to my sales guy and let him run amock… he’s doing pretty good without any previous sign knowledge…
So even though I can work things out without it, the book saves me time and money as an instant reference point. I probably save an hour a week using it….. even if I only saved myself an hours work each month by using it I would still be £412 better off…. so yeah it’s worth it
just my thoughts… long again as usual…lol
BigMo
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Maybe i have under estimated its usefulness to a raw beginner 😳
Im fortunate to have picked up part of my previous employers business when they went in to voluntary liquidation, but im still not convinced the guide would be much use to me.
What other products does this guide cover ? as it seems most people who use it are into vehicle wraps. -
Andy, it pretty much covers every sign aspect you can think of from a boards to full colour digital banners….
£20???? why even question it, I spent that yesterday on lunch!
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Andy, it’s not for everyone so maybe it wouldn’t suit you personally but someone starting out it gives a good idea of what they should be looking to charge for various different jobs.
he guide is divided up into categories:-
Artwork, banners, full colour printing, fitting/installation, magnetics, aluminium composite signs, foamex, correx, acrylic, frames for signs, flat cut letters, vehicle lettering, vinyl lettering, window lettering, flood coating, sign fitting and pavement signs.Each category gives prices for a basic layout, a intermediate layout, a complex layout, part colour & a full colour layout. a price for a full range of sizes is give for each. A example of each layout is given in the guide, this can be used to up sell the customer to a higher value sign, you will be amazed at how many customers think they want a cheap basic sign, until they see what they could have for a few pounds more.
Taken from the website Andy.
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quote Andy_M:What other products does this guide cover ? as it seems most people who use it are into vehicle wraps.
I’ve never done a vehicle wrap.
I’ve been in business 23 years and I’m still learning!
I’m not, even now, 100% confident in my pricing.
So it helps me as a reference on occasions. -
Don’t think any of the people who have commented do a lot or specialise in wraps Neil, I certainly never did a lot of wraps or even part wraps.
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I’m going to do a detachable hardtop wrap pretty soon, not that I want to, or intend doing another one ever, but I just rang someone for a price in carbon fibre, and they reckoned £600.
😕
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To be honest, £600 isn’t a million miles away for supply and fit.
This wrapping Lark don’t come cheap!!
Matt
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I guess you’re right Matty, but I don’t suppose the materials will cost even near a £100, and I would surprised if I couldn’t do it, even as a first one, it’s a simple shape.
I’m not to proud to save £500 doing that in the garage one afternoon.
Half the wraps I’ve seen I wouldn’t be happy with, so I’ll give it a go, if by some chance I can’t do it, I’ll spray it.
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I guess a predetermined hourly rate must be set into this somehow, and is there a factoring for overheads specific to the user?
My overheads equate to practically nothing, I’m happy to do a few vans a week for basically hobby money, yet I can be undercut by larger firms with far higher overheads. The fact so many sign companies go into liquidation really isn’t a mystery to me.
With respect to hourly rate, some of the things I do, are seriously well paid, but I’m still real enough to earn a tenner when there’s one looking for a good home.
Peter, I work on my own, and about as much as I’ve ever done in a day is a Transit, an Escort and four site boards, are you saying you can do at least six vans start to finish, on your own, including the logistics of that task? as if it were easy.
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Bob.
yes I can do six on my own start to finish, but as I said, if it’s fleet work, and a basic design, on a small van.
By that I mean two side panels, a bit on the doors and a single application an the rear "window" panel.
cut and prepare in the morning, then fit in the afternoon.
numbers make it profitable.
one off stuff obviously takes more time, but in the price guide, art work is a separate cost.
Cut and stick is what i am talking about
Peter -
I think that’s a bit more than numbers make it profitable, that’s more than the prime-minister earns, even after you take out materials and a fair level of expenses. Perhaps I should go back into sign-making full time.
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Bob,
the prime minister earns earns the same every day!
I unfortunately dont get six easy jobs like that all together very often,
Wish I did!Peter
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Hypothetical question, we are soon to go into recession, it’s starting, but it’ll get worse before it gets better.
If your companies have set hourly rates, and work slows down, do you refuse jobs because of minimum charge, or ones that will not give you in excess of £30 a hour, when you’re sitting there twiddling your thumbs?
When I’m busy with other things, I turn sign work down full stop, but if I’ve got a bit of free time and there’s a £100 to be earned, I’ll earn it.
As I said before, my local competition is cheap, and yes it does bring the industry down, but as a minority, I can’t change it. My local area is too small and I’m not willing to start traveling.
I’ve never worked for anyone, I’ve been self employed since I was 16. I do a number of different things now, I’m also very qualified in business management. I understand the concept of being too busy to earn any money, but I also understand how to diversify and know we should not over or under value ourselves.
I know this has hovered away from the book, and having not seen it I can’t comment, but the calculations for an hourly rate can easily be done, it’s just line accounts. It should take seconds and can be worked out without even needing a pen and paper.
I can price a job off the top of my head, and know what I’ll earn to within a couple of percent. What I can’t exactly calculate is, how much work will there be in January, how many more sign companies will spring from redundancy money and will people be less inclined to spend good money for good signs or will low cost nasty signs win the day!
Before discarding these remarks, I did go through the last recession as a sign-maker. In the start I was flat out busy for a couple of years, people who had never needed to advertise before were having loads of stuff done, but then it became a different story. Make hay while the sun shines!
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quote Phill Fenton:My thoughts are that Paul is doing a great job. A guide like this is invaluable for anyone just starting out in the business who is vulnerable to underpricing and devaluing our industry.£20 probably doesn’t even cover his costs!!
Personally I operate a minimum order value of £18 + VAT – to keep the time wasters at bay and to cover the 1/2 hour or so it takes me to process the simplest of enquiries.
Min order 30 + vat here and i think it was possibly you who made me chose that after reading a rant of yours about time wasters.
Now you`ve gone and sneaked it down to 18? !! 😀
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Bob, I think the answer to that question depends a lot on what you want from life and your business.
I now have no interest in creating a large company and becoming very rich so I am happy to just work by myself, not worry about having wages to find the money for and as long as I can make enough for a modest living then I am happy.
Few years ago I was a very busy fool, working 24/7 and still not making enough to pay the bills, that was when I sat down and had a long hard think about what I was doing. I changed pretty much everything and whacked up the prices so they were more inline with what other established sign companies were charging for the sort of work I was doing.
Lost nearly all my customers overnight because they were just looking for the cheapest possible job regardless of quality or visual impact.Took a while but I started to get customers who were more interested in a quality job with a good advertisment for there company than the actual cast, don’t get me wrong price was still a factor but they realised that a good livery would earn them a lot more than a cheap job.
The other thing was that these customers stayed loyal as long as I was fair with them and quite often would ask me to do some work without even asking for a price up front.
The other plus side to this was that all the people they sent along to get a quote for a job were like minded businesses and so most of the work I was doing became by referral rather than by me going out looking for work.Yes new companies will start up all the time and yes there will always be people who buy on price alone so you are always going to have cheap nasty signs about but I believe that there will always be those who want something a bit better and from what I have seen a lot of the people offering cheap rubbish don’t seem to be able to recreate that sort of artwork or don’t want to.
If you work on your own it doesn’t really take that much to keep you busy and yes things may slow down but I still think there will be enough work about to make a living if your not looking to make a fortune.
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You’ve hit that pretty much on the head Martin, I only ever worked on my own with the signs, then if you have a rough week it’s easier to ride it out.
I do love doing signs, but I could never make the money I wanted in the town I’m in. But what it did enable me to do was make good money while I was young, so I could get into other things that had massive initial start-up costs.
The saying "work to live, not live to work" is something I truly wish I could do. I know you said you’ve been through it, but you seem to have the balance few people ever achieve.
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OK guys, I have read the toing & froing, the pros & cons of the ‘Price It Sign Guide’
As a result I would like to know how to actually go about getting one.
Do I purchase one from this site?
Neil
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quote NeilFox:OK guys, I have read the toing & froing, the pros & cons of the ‘Price It Sign Guide’
As a result I would like to know how to actually go about getting one.
Do I purchase one from this site?
Neil
No Mate
http://www.priceitsignguide.com -
Peter,
Thanks for that.
Neil
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…it’s always been a fair ‘guide’ to the industry average and a good jumping off point for those not familiar with pricing signs.
Worth the money?…well, it’s worth it if you can’t price jobs.
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I wish the local idiot down my way that is saying he would do three sides oh a van with design for £60 would by a copy too don’t know how he does it but I’m sure he won’t be bothering me for long lol
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We have a few guys in Dublin doing vans for €90 and then go round the sign shops asking for all offcuts!!! I even got a text from one of them looking for business.
All my offcuts of a reasonable size go to the local school’s art department’s.
I know it is off topic, but I know you frustration David.
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David, if he’s doing it for beer money and not declaring it then he may well be around for a while, not sure what sort of design you would get for that money but must be fairly basic. The other problem is that as soon as he stops bothering you someone else will start 😉
Neil, that’s brilliant, like to stop and say more about it but I’m off out round the local sign companies :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:
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quote NeilFox:We have a few guys in Dublin doing vans for €90 and then go round the sign shops asking for all offcuts!!!
Used to have a guy here that did that, would call in asking for basic colours that you really shouldn’t run out of.
I never mind helping any of the legit companies with odd colours or genuine pleas for help.
Alas, the other guy has gone, went bankrupt I believe!!!! -
Without sounding too dooming, the local companies that form my competition, for want of a better word, go bankrupt on a pretty regular basis. It’s rubbished quality signmaking in my area.
If you ask for an account in my area Essex, then say you’re a signmaker, you can hear the sharpe intake of breath.
If your local signmaking competition is heading for bankruptcy, then they are very difficult to compete with, as they will be closer to the 100% profit bracket.
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Maybe if the price guide was still free as i understand it once was, the cheapo cut price boys would be educated in a proper pricing structure if they cant work it out themselves which obviously they cant.
Anyway I doubt if they could offer quality service in what ever they produce… it would eat away all their pocket money.
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As others have said I think the guide is very useful, especially if doing something for the first time to give a ball park figure. I always compare it with my own method of pricing and things usually come out pretty similar.
However I much prefer the old thin freebie over the new folder.
The prices as far as ball park figures go are virtually the same. The few pence difference is irrelevant.
The thin booklet was easy to store and carry around, and could even be taken with you on a first customer visit to give rough prices without doing on the spot calculations before being given a job. It also gave some reassuarnce to the customer that you weren’t fleecing them and you were around general industry prices.The new folder I find too big to carry around and the pages dont turn easily and have all ripped out. For the difference in the prices I find myself using the old pamphlet more again.
Only ever looked at the cd once and didn’t find it that relevant.
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It was worth it for me, not having had much experience quoting before the thrust into the deep end! In fact I would have struggled a great deal without it.
One thing I would say is I don’t know how professional it is to pull out a price guide with a different company logo to your own on it (even if you are a one man band).
I lifted the figures I was most interested in or used the most then printed it on our company’s headed paper.
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Leon, I wouldn’t see it as being to unprofessional at all, after all it’s not another sign company’s prices it’s a general guide for the industry so you could argue that you are showing the customer what he should really be paying from any sign company.
It is only a guide though don’t forget and really you should be setting your prices by what other sign companies in your area are charging for the same sort of work. I tend not to give customers ball park figures anyway, if I am asked for a price I will normally tell the customer that the price is calculated by the pricing software at the office and I will call them back with a price.
Doesn’t generally seem to be a problem and if I did use the guide then the customer would never see it anyway. Like you say though easy enough to put it in another folder or cover the front with something.
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quote Martin:Leon, I wouldn’t see it as being to unprofessional at all, after all it’s not another sign company’s prices it’s a general guide for the industry so you could argue that you are showing the customer what he should really be paying from any sign company.
True, but how many customers would know the difference between a sign price guide and another sign company’s prices, given it has branding all over it? It was from a comment from one of our more experienced members of staff that prompted the measure.
You’re right about checking locally as well though! Luckily we are friendly with (most) of the local sign companies.
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this price guide sounds good!
where would I get one from? i was thinking about posting asking for advise on pricing, because i just haven’t got a clue about working out prices. I’ve been making signs for years but when its for a private company you just get the cost as low as you can. I don’t want to be doing work to cheap and upset any other sign places in my area.
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I ended up buying this guide in the end out of curiosity, but found it not much use for me as i print only and its aimed at people who cut and apply graphics etc.
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