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Buying vinyl stock from china
Ive just been searching the interweb for new suppliers and have come across many companies selling from china.
they supply allsorts of vinyls, cast, poly, bubble free, etc at a fraction of the cost of uk suppliers. im talking 20p per metre for bubble free poly ( if you buy 10 rolls )
has anybody had any experience with buying from abroad, what are your thoughts.
might take a punt on this, could save thousands.
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37 Replies
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or end up with a nightmare :lol1:
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you can buy anything from there these days mate, but i wouldn’t touch anything unless you know exactly what you are doing, the product and the company your dealing with.
vinyl is restively cheap anyways… buy local and "as and when needed" think you will find you are better off for many reasons. -
Hi James,
I buy a lot from the China, mostly compatible inks, print heads and maintenance carts. I save quite a bit. Quality is superb, same as most of the guys selling compatibles in the UK. That is really what most of them do anyway.
Word’s of warning would be:
Buy a small amount first to make sure they are a real company
Take the hit on a good freight DHL, or UPS 3-5 days from far east.
A friend of mine said – "Ask them to say the value is less than what you buy or get hit with import tax. He said it is $100 that way you are paying about £22 when it comes in. 😉 (Andy)Regards
Andy -
Andy,
Seriously suggest you amend your post mate, declaring your purchase if of a lesser value than actual could be viewed as tax "fiddling" – not saying anyone on here would shop you but its a small world.
Just a friendly warning 😉
Andy
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Too True Andy 😀
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i think ide rather stick with some place i can call and complain when my part didn’t turn up mate.
a place i can call and speak the language and get a good service and support.
next day delivery for a few quid more…
just reeks with possible flaws.don’t get me wrong, as i said prior. if you know exactly what your buying, clued up on the whole importing and from a known reputable firm, then why not…
but as you said yourself mate…
don’t order much initially incase the walk with your money. 😕
or if your thousand pounds box of print heads disapears in transit, how you going to feel being handed that £22 insurance cover? 😕 -
I agree Rob, I was saying that to a potential new person buying from out with their comfort zone.
I buy from one of the biggest suppliers in China, these guys supply the UK market. i like going to the source and cutting out the middle man. I have previously been a buyer for a large retail company before getting into Printing, so I am confident in what and where I buy my products from. The advice I was giving was for someone dabbling with import. Personally I buy my vinyl & media locally, but after a few bad experiences from UK suppliers I decided to source my ink, print heads and maintenance carts from Abroad.
I have never had a problem and you may say "yet" but after a few orders I have made the savings to allow for a missing order, if it happens.
Buying from abroad is not for everyone, but if you make the right contacts it certainly increases the profit margin. :lol1:
Andy
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are we talking about well known braded products like Mactac/avery here?
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quote Dave Rowland:are we talking about well known braded products like Mactac/avery here?
Mactac and Avery made in China? 😕 :lol1:
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Buying from China is not something I’d be encouraging.
I’ve certainly heard of some good experiences, but I heard of some nightmares too.
We had a local guy that purchased his inks from China. The first couple of shipment were fine, and he was happy. Then the 3rd shipment inks didn’t print correctly, he assumed it was his machine. Paid a fortune to have the machine checked and serviced.
Nothing would improve the quality of the print. He rang china and they denied it was their ink. He persevered for another few weeks, paid to have the machine re calibrated, but the colours were still crap.
Eventually he found a technician who claimed it was the inks, and was adamant.
Long story short, the guy had to freight all the inks back to china at his expense, then fly over there to argue his point to the factory.
Eventually he got new inks, but, the cost to his business was enormous… in both lost trade, technician expenses, flights and freight to china etc etc.
He is no longer in business.
Another guy I know got his UV inks from china… 9 months later he was getting complaints from clients that the yellow was fading. China denied responsibility. He argued for a year with no success, finished up replacing all the signs at his cost using a local ‘branded’ ink. The damage was done. He closed down a few months ago.
Like Rob, I don’t think the savings are that good that I’d want to risk it. I’d rather be able to ring someone up and blast them if something wasn’t right, and press them for reimbursement, rather than trying to conduct that sort of business over a phone line with people who may, or may not, totally understand my dilemma.
Even now, I use a technician that imports his own parts. The last pump he put in exploded an hour after it was fitted. I rang him, he replaced it at his cost. Imagine me trying to get the Chinese to believe it failed an hour after I put it in.
Vinyl stock would fall into the same category, especially here in oz. Our UV is the worse in the world, their claims of life span would have to be halved if you’d believe them at all.
Not saying that people don’t have good experiences, but for every good one, I bet there are as many bad.
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HI Shane,
The reason I went to China for my inks is: the company in the UK I was ordering from let me down, I decided to find their supplier and order from source to avoid problems within the UK. I agree if you don’t know what you are buying then there are many pitfalls and a sharp learning curve, but if you do then why not?
I order original parts for my machine and compatible inks.
Andy
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quote Shane Drew:Eventually he found a technician who claimed it was the inks, and was adamant.Did he look like this Shane?, if not it was an imposter 👿
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quote Robert Lambie:quote Dave Rowland:are we talking about well known braded products like Mactac/avery here?
Mactac and Avery made in China? 😕 :lol1:
Distributed, not made, undercutting Robert Horne etc.
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quote Neil Speirs:quote Shane Drew:Eventually he found a technician who claimed it was the inks, and was adamant.
Did he look like this Shane?, if not it was an imposter 👿
:rofl:
Fair comment Andy, and I understand fully.
But, we do need a healthy local supply industry, be it UK, Australia or America, so we can get support, help and advice for our own businesses to prosper. If we shaft them, and they then decide to cease supplying us, supporting us or helping us, we will find ourselves on the downhill slide pretty quickly. The value of having experience to fall back on is so often underestimated.
That said, I think suppliers have to earn our respect, just as we have to earn our clients respect. If they don’t appreciate our business, find someone who does. I just think its best for the industry as a whole to support the local importers and distributors rather than cut them out of the loop.
I am pretty impressed with the level of support you guys seem to get over there. All the suppliers and reps I spoke to had hands on experience, something that is unheard of here. Some of our reps were selling photocopiers before they started selling Wide format printers.
Don’t get me wrong, I buy product out of china from Australian distributors too, but I’d rather they be around if I have a problem, instead of cutting them out of the loop and finding when I have a problem with stock, or supply, I’m on my own.
Your input is valuable mate, thanks for expressing it. It is a debate worth having, and I’m always interested in others views. Its just a shame I’m so opinionated 😳
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quote Dave Rowland:quote Robert Lambie:quote Dave Rowland:are we talking about well known braded products like Mactac/avery here?
Mactac and Avery made in China? 😕 :lol1:
Distributed, not made, undercutting Robert Horne etc.
i would imagine at least Avery to have a division in the states. but both Avery & Mactac are manufactured in Europe mate. so i cant see the Chinese Importing into China and exporting to the UK and still undercutting those in the UK. certainly not in small dribs and drabs quantities ordered by us lot. so those buying in large volume, surely would be better missing out China and going direct to the European manufacturer?
anyway… i was joking by my reply. could you know hear the whizz of my fishing real dave? 😉 :lol1:
all joking aside, its not going to be long before some reputable Chinese, or the like, brand of vinyl starts hitting the market over here. actually surprised it hasnt happened already. 😕
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I would love to know where some of my brands are made….
examples, where is Image Perfect distributed by Spandex made?
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Agreed Shane, I do work well with all my UK suppliers and believe me I give them enough work lol.
It was only because my hand was forced from a bad supplier I decided to get it myself.
We just need to get the prices in the UK down a bit and it would stop us looking hahahaha
Andy
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but what you saved importing, is the UK distributors profit margin for doing all the donkey work, research, distributing within the UK, advertising, staff wages, stock and more.
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I think everyone is thinking I am down on UK business, as I have said, I understand all these valid points and have already stated my hand was forced from a bad supplier. I am happy with my UK suppliers and give them a lot of business, but if there is a problem that cannot be rectified and I can get the same service elsewhere I will and it is my prerogative to do so.
If you buy a BMW from a main dealer and got a bad service that was not rectified, but really wanted another BMW you would go to another supplier of a BMW, if there was no other supplier and someone offered it to you direct from Germany would you do it?
The upside is that I save money in the long run as well as getting a better service.
Andy
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well known branded products doesnt always equal higher quality, vinyl is all manufactured in the same way ( a poly calendered vinyl is manufactured exactly the same way in china and the uk using the same materials ) just because its from china doesnt mean its inferior. Its just we pay extortionate ammounts for raw materials, tax, and retailers being greedy and taking rediculous profit margins. Have you seen the cost per metre of some of spandex’s cast range, they should be embarrassed of themselves.
The only fear is getting stung, but i think with careful research the risks are minimal.
anyway im gonna go for a batch of bubble free poly, ill keep you posted with my experience.
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Breaking the thread abit here, but Neil, that Adam Ant reference is Hilarius!!!
Matt 😛 😛 😀 😀
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I can understand both sides of the argument I read the same kind of posts when some "cowboy sign company" are selling for xxx price on fleabay and the customer you quoted a week ago has just pointed that fact out to you, that customer has done a little bit of research and may take a gamble on the fleabay company supplying the right goods, not all sellers are bad right.
I agree with Shane’s sentiments it is always useful to have a native supplier when things go wrong so the problem can be rectified hopefully asap, same time I can see Andy’s point because afterall you all are in business for one main thing………costs low profits high and with a bit of luck and sense you make a decent living.
A lot of you have heard of the SignPal range of vinyl cutters and I know many still class them as a cheap import and so cannot be that good, just a bearing on this post, only last week I supplied a customer with their third cutter to work alongside the other two, all SignPal and all replaced Roland machines………in hindsight if you check everything out beforehand then sure you can avoid the many pitfalls and import goods a lot cheaper from China.
The downside to this for the sign industry is the UK will business wise become more sterile and you will need to start exporting your signs because there will be less businesses in the UK needing them !
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quote James Beavon:vinyl is all manufactured in the same way ( a poly calendered vinyl is manufactured exactly the same way in china and the uk using the same materials ) just because its from china doesnt mean its inferior. Its just we pay extortionate ammounts for raw materials, tax, and retailers being greedy and taking rediculous profit margins. Have you seen the cost per metre of some of spandex’s cast range, they should be embarrassed of themselves.
Do you have allot of knowledge and experience of vinyl printing, cutting and application at all levels James?
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Good customers are hard to find and easily lost.
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I would imagine it’d be quite possible to buy vinyl from china and it be just as good as UK bought and cheaper! But I wouldn’t be chancing it, as there are too many variables, vinyl isn’t expensive enough to risk the problems that could occur from buying a bad batch and not realizing how bad it actually was till you’d ruined a few vans.
But that said, you can’t guarantee it’s good just because it’s bought in UK, I had some Ritrama sample vinyls sent to me once an it was like insulating tape, I wouldn’t have wanted it if it were free.
The old expression "you get what you pay for", doesn’t work the same these days. Prices are all over the place and with discounts taking the cost to under half the start price in many cases only proves it. Not just in the sign world, but almost everything as people scurry to make a few quid, before someone else makes it.
In short, I’d be pushing for deals in this country before even thinking about China. That said we regularly buy certain products from USA, as we receive better service at better prices, even after shipping, so maybe it’s not that silly.
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I’m just now getting complaints on jobs that were done five months ago, that the laminate is shrinking badly on some of my graphics on vehicles (up to 10mm 😮 ) It turns out it was from a batch of laminate bought from a company that advertises in a lot of our trade mags, and it appears that they import cheap vinyls and laminates from China!.
Lesson learned cheap is not always good>
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how cheap does vinyl need to be? I mean, I can buy in 10m of 610 vinyl, say oracle 551, for around £23 + delivery and vat, maybe a bit more or less, i don’t even check these days, we all price slightly differently, the way i do my pricing means the material gets retailed at around £17.50pm, that’s a profit of around £150 just for handling/cutting and taping 10m of material, travel / on site labour goes on top, seems like a good profit to me!
I used to import a fair bit of stuff from the US, the hassle that went with it if customs wanted to check the container or packages was not only inconvenient but, also expensive. Are you prepared to buy whole rolls of materials you can’t be certain of? A wholesaler friend of mine has got very good contacts in China, he regularly travels out there but, even then he sometimes gets sent stuff which is a far different product to the ‘samples’.
i’d proceed with caution if dealing direct.
As for suppliers being greedy… why are they? they have a living to make too, staff to pay and, if they weren’t there you’d be forced into buying large quantities from manufacturers or importing yourself.
just my thoughts!
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We generally import pvc banner material from china, well 2 or 3 container loads in a single hit, but have never imported adhesive’s from there. I would suggest a trip over there and view it in person.
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I have noticed recently is that there are suppliers in the far east offering vinyl that I know for a fact isn’t produced anywhere except in Europe so be careful as just because it says it is a certain brand on the release liner backing doesn’t mean to say it is really is. Fake sign vinyl does exist!
Buying from the far east should be viewed with the concept that if it works out for you, great but always be prepared to lose the lot. Samples are not always the same grade as what you get when you place a proper order.
There are good and bad suppliers in the EU and in far east so you can’t tar everyone with the same brush, but if the price makes you go ‘Wow I could save thousands’ then you need to be a bit wary.
We buy everything in the EU so there shouldn’t be any issues with quality and if things do go wrong it is alot easier to go and throttle a manufacturer based in Germany than it is if they are on the other side of the planet.
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I don’t understand the logic here, buy here good vinyl, good information good back up, next day delivery, good prices, I think most of our uk suppliers are top notch, no rolls of vinyl stacked up that you may or may not sell, no brainer to maybe save a few hundred quid, when you can use that money to better use 🙄
Lynn
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I tried to order banner material today from Robert Horne to be told they were out of stock and had no idea when it would arrive as ‘it was on the slow boat from China’………….
john
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Its not just the risk, cant believe that folk see this so selfishly as to how it affects them.
China has shocking human rights for that reason alone they are worth a body swerve.
Eco UN friendly, one of the worlds largest polluters.
Uk is in recession and you are thinking about sending money out of the country? what about keeping the money in the uk even if it is the middle men that get it.
As Hugh says the profit is large on vinyl so the savings minimal as a percentage. The risk is a minor point compared to you investing in pollution, human rights abuses and helping their economy instead of ours?
Obviously a few quid your pocket may be what you are looking for but on a moral point is it worth it?
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Thats a good point Nigel, You should put that to your client next time your selling a job and say you can have the more expensive material made in Eastern Europe were people are lucky to earn more then £300 a month or you can have the cheaper Chinese product.
The saving would only be good if you are buying direct not from your supplier as they will give you a minimal difference on cost say £20 per roll. I bet your client would go for the cheap Chinese product every time as long as it dose what they want it to do. All the companies I have dealt with in UK have agreed jobs based on cost. They get three quotes and the cheapest quote gets the job.
I fitted a sample display in Reiss head office when we finished we were told to make sure the costs were good because they can get it cheaper some where else, this was before they had costs. -
Price seems to far out weigh quality with regards to what customers want now, it’s one of the reasons I started to move out of the trade.
I wrote a van today, for about the same money I’d have got 20yrs ago. Thing is, I’m still having to do a good job for it to keep an edge as there’s people out there that would undercut me. So even if you price a job where you’re really not earning much better than a job in Tesco, people will still work for less. The point to this being, soon as a few start buying even cheaper products, we’ll all to a certain degree need to follow suit.
I used to write all new vans in 3M, but when competition starts using Ritrama or the like, You then have to compromise especially if you’re customer can’t tell good from bad and only looks at the price.
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interesting comments here, great to have so many views.
I wonder if we aren’t being unduly worried about price of the material? The comment that ritrama is cheaper and as a result you can’t justify the market for 3M rings some bells with me. Unless 3M is outrageously priced over there of course.
I have the choice of a huge range of products here as you can imagine, and I am sure you do too.
I compete with another shop all the time in the area that I market. He is loyal to Avery and Calon, I’m loyal to 3M.
Assuming he can buy a roll of Avery at my industry discount, Avery is cheaper than 3M by $100 for a 50 metre roll. Thats $2 a linear metre.
If you are going to out price yourself for a $2 difference, you may have to look at your pricing structures a bit better.
I use Estimate quoting software, which allows me to compare prices using several brands within the one quote. The price rarely differs by a few %, because the bulk of your price is made up of fitting and prep, and that shouldn’t change no matter what you use.
Personally, I find 3M for instance, so easy to apply, my fitting time is much faster than other brands that don’t have the better 3M adhesive etc.
Even Ritrama here is only $150 dollars cheaper for 50 metres, or $3 a lineal metre. I can easily outsell those that use those products by playing the 3M quality ‘card’. I’ll give a client the option – the cheaper Ritrama product that is a medium range, average quality product, or the slightly dearer 3M product which is specifically designed for the use you, the client, want to use it for.
In many cases, it all in the selling.
Just a thought.
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Shane, in an ideal world I would 100% agree with you.
Not so much now, but when I started doing this I was 20yrs old, working flat out with two plotters. I used 3m for about the first 2yrs, I then dropped to Ultramark, it’s not as good, but it’s perfectly ok.
Due to the volume of vinyl I was getting through, the amount I saved each month doing this amounted to more money than the average employed person my age was even likely to earn.
Looking at my market today, I mostly do new vans that are changed every 3-4yrs, the Ultramark still looks good at this age. There’s no real point in using a loner lasting vinyl.
If you ask me would customers spend more for a better product than mid range. It would generally be a no.
If you took you’re approach to my market, all that would happen is every metre of vinyl that went through your cutter would waste a few quid that could go straight in your pocket, this would have been thousands of pounds a year using the quantity I was when I was working full time.
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I know what you say Bob, I’m in the same market – Transport vehicles that get turned over regularly.
Just this week, I have a client removing his signs and upgrading his fleet.
3 years ago I did half the fleet, the other guy that I mentioned did the other half. Mainly because the fleet was all over the eastern states, and they wanted the re brand done quickly.
The other guy tried to muscle me out of the deal by undercutting me using a really cheap product. I told the company as it was my reputation on the line, I wasn’t prepared to jeopardize my reputation by offering a lower quality product.
I admit it was a bit of gall on my part, but I wasn’t about to sacrifice my margin to anyone. My job is excellent quality, and I believed that, and that obviously came across in my explanation.
Anyway, this week I quoted the client a price to remove my old signs so the vehicles could be sold. I estimated an hour for my original signs, but was told the other guys signs had to be removed too. I told them they would have to pay an hourly rate as I didn’t know what the other guy used.
They opted to do it themselves if it was only going to take an hour per vehicle.
They called me down on friday to discuss some ‘issues’ they had with the removal.
My vehicles did only take an hour, the other guys signs took 4 to 5 hours, removed the paint on some vehicles and left adhesive all over the place. The manager thanked me for using the good stuff, and told me the other guy would be removed from their list of contractors immediately.
I reiterated that they were getting what they paid for, and although I was slightly more expensive then, it is reaping dividends now. No damage at all to the vehicles I had done, and certainly no glue left behind. A quick buff and they were ready for sale.
Yes, our markets are probably different mate, but I really do think we have to sell ourselves better. Interestingly Ultramark here is about the same savings as Avery.
Gone are the days that we can name our price or expect to get every job. If you get every job, you must be too cheap anyway.
I’m not about to tell you how to run your business, that is not my intention, but so many of my peers opt for the cheaper options as soon as they get a whiff that they may be undercut, when if you look at the math, the material you use is such a small % of the overall costs, it shouldn’t really matter. The better material usually saves time in fitting and ease of use. The cheaper the product, usually the more difficult the fit, and the longer the time it takes. Time is the real expense in the overall price, so it you can save time in installation, less chance of a call back, your actually saving money… that’s my take anyway.
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