Hmm, problem customer, what would you do?

[Peter Normington]

Lorraine,
I would send her the invoice, if you have not already done so,
together with copies of the design she gave you and your proof. did the customer say she wasn’t going to pay, or did she just make alternative arrangements to rectify her own mistake because you were not available?
Did you get a deposit BTW.

Peter

[Gwaredd Steele]

Job was done. Bill her.

Simple as.

You can’t be held responsible for someone else’s mistake, regardless if you were on holiday or not!

If I went into a car showroom & chose a red car & ordered it, only to change my mind & order a blue car from another dealer, I’d still have to pay for the red car whether I wanted it anymore or not!

Good luck!

G.

[Hugh Potter]

invoice her. no doubt about it.

she ordered and confirmed (hopefully in writing / email) and has therefore entered into a contract with yourself. small claims if not.

[Peter Mindham]

If she signed and agreed the proof and you delivered as agreed, bill her she owes you.

Peter

[TimDouglas]

Tough one – small claims court didn’t work for me.
Estate agent – new company – £1000 bill

From memory as couple of years ago now.
£175 to take to small claims, they failed to respond
Nothing happened , so CCJ issued against company
Another £120 to enforce it ( whatever that means )
Spoke to someone in an office about it ,
She told me that if the company goes bust which was what they were letting happen, then Max i would expect was 10% of original bill which was £100 , decided to cut my losses at that point and learned a big lesson. The assets they had was a desk and chair !!

For me it only works if a company does not want a CCJ issued against them and you settle the issues between you.

So i would have spent £300 ( Plus materials / Time ) to get back £100

Tim

[Bob Clarkson]

Firstly you need to establish her views on it. Does she acknowledge she ordered the sign you’ve made and has she point blank refused to pay for it.

Obviously you have to do something, it’s just what’s best, and in what order.

I personally would go to the shop, with my bill in my hand and thrash it out with them. Start off very friendly and understanding, but not actually give an inch. Depending on how things seemed to be going, If it wasn’t going well, I’d start pushing my point considerably harder, but I wouldn’t push it hard enough to get the police called. But you never know, they could just apologise and pay, unlikely, but far from impossible.

If you have a written agreement/order, then small claims, if you don’t, just remember the customer always has the option of lying through their teeth they didn’t actually order it. After all, why would they, they’ve already got a sign! If you took her to court, she could just say she gave you the proofs for you to price the job, but you were too expensive so she chose a different company. We all know this isn’t the truth, but the people at the small claims don’t.

[Johnny Alston]

Have you got anything in writing or email saying go ahead?

If not then tough its your word against hers that the she had agreed on the work all she has to say is that she was only wanting a price and asked you to match a layout.

Take a leaf out of some of the franchised business out there. I recently used one high street printer.

Signed order form confirming the price form clearly says I was happy to proceed.

Deposit required before the start any design with full payment required before the job went into production.

An expensive lesson I would n’t waste any time in small claim unless you have anything in writing.

I she wrong 100% she is will you get anything off her or through a claim unlikely.

Cheers

[NeilFox]

I would bit the company.

Make sure you have on your invoice that title of goods does not transfer from you until paid in full.

In this way you keep the title for the goods if unpaid.

At least if they don’t pay you you are entitled to take back the signage you have made. In that way, you can get back some of the materials that may be of use on another job.

It is a difficult situation, but you need to bill them anyway. Make sure you have all correspondence from the customer so that you can show that the job,in it’s entirety was signed off but the customer.

It is sad that this type of situation appears to be happening more often as some sign companies undercut other companies, giving their product away for nothing.

[Shane Drew]

employ a debt collector. They know all the avenues that people try to escape payment. They also know the law. Our collection agents charge on a sliding scale here, no doubt yours do to.

You have her original artwork, she accepted delivery of the sign, it is as good as a signature.

If she does not respond to your demand for payment, outlining the details as to the error being hers not yours, a collection agent is the next step.

From experience, they’ll usually respond from the initial threat of legal action..

[Martin Pearson]

Think I would be inclined to do what Bob has suggested first, go and speak to the customer armed with your invoice and proofs. Be polite and friendly, no doubt you will have to bite your tongue :lol1:

The Job was completed and delivered which should be the end of it, I can’t understand how she ever thought she could get away without paying for it if you had already delivered it to her.

If that doesn’t work then have a rethink as anything after that is going to start costing you money.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

quote Johnny Alston:

Have you got anything in writing or email saying go ahead?

If not then tough its your word against hers that the she had agreed on the work all she has to say is that she was only wanting a price and asked you to match a layout.

Take a leaf out of some of the franchised business out there. I recently used one high street printer.

Signed order form confirming the price form clearly says I was happy to proceed.

Deposit required before the start any design with full payment required before the job went into production.

An expensive lesson I would n’t waste any time in small claim unless you have anything in writing.

I agree with this.
Deposit, then sketch, then signed approval. Full payment upon delivery.
No exceptions.
Not sure what recourse you have if you don’t have anything in writing (assuming you don’t)
Seems fishy to me that her hub would have gotten her new signs, did she leave you a voice mail or email while you were away to complain about (her) mistake?
I wonder if she’s paid the other company.
She may be a serial rip off artist.
I think I’d have Geoff sneak onto the roof of the place and drop something stinky down into her heating/cooling unit.
I’m kidding!
(sort of)
Karma will get her, in the meantime send a registered letter (that she will have to sign for) with the invoice for what she owes you.
Love…..Jill

[RayRosher]

quote Shane Drew:

employ a debt collector. They know all the avenues that people try to escape payment. They also know the law. Our collection agents charge on a sliding scale here, no doubt yours do to.

You have her original artwork, she accepted delivery of the sign, it is as good as a signature.

If she does not respond to your demand for payment, outlining the details as to the error being hers not yours, a collection agent is the next step.

From experience, they’ll usually respond from the initial threat of legal action..

I go with Shane’s Debt collector as Ive done this a couple of times And it works!

[Jason Davies]

Playing devils advocate here, if she didn’t sign anything or pay a deposit then I don’t think you can charge her. She would argue that ‘I tried to contact you but there was no answer to cancel’.

It all sounds a bit to casual to allow any recourse.

Sorry Lorraine, I would just re-use the boards for something else and take a large deposit before commencing work on a ‘large’ job in future.

Good luck

Jason 🙁 🙁

[Shane Drew]

quote RayRosher:

quote Shane Drew:

employ a debt collector. They know all the avenues that people try to escape payment. They also know the law. Our collection agents charge on a sliding scale here, no doubt yours do to.

You have her original artwork, she accepted delivery of the sign, it is as good as a signature.

If she does not respond to your demand for payment, outlining the details as to the error being hers not yours, a collection agent is the next step.

From experience, they’ll usually respond from the initial threat of legal action..

I go with Shane’s Debt collector as Ive done this a couple of times And it works!

I use a no win no pay collection agency. Only lost once, and that is when I did work as a subcontractor for another sign shop. Unknown to me he was already broke and i was employed to help him finish some well paying jobs. Once he got paid, he declared bankruptcy. He started up the next day as a new entity, and left me out to dry. It cost me nothing to pursue the debt as nothing was collected. Still lost the money though. 👿 Everyone else I’ve put up for collection has paid though…

[Bob Clarkson]

I fully agree with the concept of that Shane, but it’s not that common in this country for relatively small amounts to get a no win no fee agreement. As she is unlikely, we hope, to become a regular customer of the debt collector, she’s unlikely to get a one off deal.

[Paul S Martin]

Invoice her 100%. No doubt about it.

Paul

[Peter Normington]

quote Bob Clarkson:

I fully agree with the concept of that Shane, but it’s not that common in this country for relatively small amounts to get a no win no fee agreement. As she is unlikely, we hope, to become a regular customer of the debt collector, she’s unlikely to get a one off deal.

I have Read in the past that other members have had excellent results from Thomas Higgins, even for small one off debts, the company is listed in the tool bar, but unfortunately the link does not work, but its here anyway

http://www.thomashiggins.com/
Peter

[Shane Drew]

quote Bob Clarkson:

I fully agree with the concept of that Shane, but it’s not that common in this country for relatively small amounts to get a no win no fee agreement. As she is unlikely, we hope, to become a regular customer of the debt collector, she’s unlikely to get a one off deal.

Try these guys http://www.harleylegal.co.uk/ … from their website :

How does it work?
We accept clients from the UK & World Wide and collect nationally and internationally always on a NO SUCCESS = NO FEE Basis.

Whether you have 1 debtor or a list of a thousand debtors, we have the skills, the capacity and the debt recovery procedures to get your money back FAST!

We work on a No Success = No Fee basis with no upfront or hidden costs. We only charge commission from whatever monies are recovered, so you have nothing to lose.

Bob, for years I tried to save money and resolve these things myself. It takes time and effort, as well as a fair bit of knowledge to be successful the majority of times. Now, I make a phone call, and get on with running my business, instead of running around chasing bad debts.

You have to weigh up what your own time is worth. Most of these non payers work on the idea that it is a) not worth your effort to chase them, b) they stuff you around so long that you give up or c) they know exactly what to say and do to keep the process ongoing until it is not worth your effort to continue.

Paying a debt collector 15% of the debt is better, in my view, than wasting my time on something that I’m not experienced in.

Debt collectors know all the tricks from experience, and most bad payers don’t want the black mark on their credit history if they can avoid it.

Bad payers are happier to ‘fight’ over the debt with you, but rarely keen to take on a professional.

I still think it is the best option. You can then get on with what you do best, and leave debt collecting up to Some one else that has experience.

[RayRosher]

quote Jill Marie Welsh:

quote Johnny Alston:

Have you got anything in writing or email saying go ahead?

If not then tough its your word against hers that the she had agreed on the work all she has to say is that she was only wanting a price and asked you to match a layout.

Take a leaf out of some of the franchised business out there. I recently used one high street printer.

Signed order form confirming the price form clearly says I was happy to proceed.

Deposit required before the start any design with full payment required before the job went into production.

An expensive lesson I wouldn’t waste any time in small claim unless you have anything in writing.

I agree with this.
Deposit, then sketch, then signed approval. Full payment upon delivery.
No exceptions.
Not sure what recourse you have if you don’t have anything in writing (assuming you don’t)
Seems fishy to me that her hub would have gotten her new signs, did she leave you a voice mail or email while you were away to complain about (her) mistake?
I wonder if she’s paid the other company.
She may be a serial rip off artist.
I think I’d have Geoff sneak onto the roof of the place and drop something stinky down into her heating/cooling unit.
I’m kidding!
(sort of)
Karma will get her, in the meantime send a registered letter (that she will have to sign for) with the invoice for what she owes you.
Love…..Jill

Actually in Scotland a verbal contract is binding. most Scottish courts take a dim view of people reengaging on any kind of contract even verbal

[Peter Normington]

A vebal contract is also binding in England,
the problem arises when you need to proove it, without witnesses, a verbal contract
is easy to deny. and not worth the paper it is written on 😉

Peter

[Shane Drew]

quote Peter Normington:

A vebal contract is also binding in England,
the problem arises when you need to proove it, without witnesses, a verbal contract
is easy to deny. and not worth the paper it is written on 😉

Peter

Same here, but as Peter says, without an independent witness, its hard to make it stick. In court however, if the client took delivery of the sign, that is considered acceptance of the job, that is, that it was ordered and expected. I think you have a period of time to make a claim that goods are not as you expected, but then you have to give the sign shop a reasonable time to correct the error. If they refuse to correct it, you then have a claim to not pay. Its called ‘due process’

The argument that Lorraine was not given ‘due process’ would hold water here if it got to court.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve never really had any problems with my sign business with regards to collecting money, I’ve written off less than a £100 in over 20yrs, and a good part of that was out of pitty for want of a better word. I’m in a relatively small town here, and everyone knows everyone, that solves most things before they even start.

I do however have another business, which very seldom causes me to deal or invoice general public, with that I have a £500 debt I can’t recover. It’s just the last bit of thousands of pounds over a 12yr period, but now he’ll never need me again, he’s knocked me for the balance. I had truly expected this, but it still grates me. I can offset the debt against my tax, but I’d happily give someone the whole £500 sooner than get knocked. He’s one of those people that in normal life you’d do everything to avoid, only uses PO box numbers etc, proper chancer, but unfortunately he fitted in with departments I have to, and have no problem dealing with.

Based on this, I’m going to contact the two places you’ve mentioned, I tried a few before, but no one was interested in a no win no fee as I’d never had a none recovered debt before. So if it works, thank you.

[Martin Pearson]

Who has the sign now? When you went to see her after your holiday did she give it back to you or has she still got it??

[Jason Davies]

Apologies I mis read, didn’t realise that you had delivered the boards. I would bill her, not your problem that she had another sign, the email address was written as per her artwork, no question there.

She owes the full amount for the job.

Good Luck

Jason

[Daniel Evans]

Personally i would bill her for half to cover the costs. Customers have got big mouths when they want to slag off your company. here’s what i would do, i would call her up and say, you gave me the job, i completed it the total price is this, shall i send the invoice or would you want to pay over the phone and then don’t speak, if she then kicks up then say because of the circumstances, i will accept half, only when she’s agreed not to pay the whole amount only. That way you may get at least some back if not all, remember after you’ve asked for the money, he who speaks first loses!

[Stuart Miller]

Don’t accept only half of it.
You did the job as asked and delivered.
Therefore full payment due.

Take it to court/ debt collector if its financially viable.

When customers accept jobs over the phone I always ask them to drop an email confirmation as well.

[Daniel Evans]

Don’t get me wrong, you should ask for all of it which is why i said give them a call and ask how they would like to pay, then if they kick off then ask for half as a solution, i wouldn’t want the hassle of having to chase people up etc and does getting a debt collector in or taking them to court actually get you anywhere other than a bad name around town, i just think it’s more civil to ask for the full amount, then go for half if they refuse and then get on with the rest of your life

[Bob Clarkson]

There’s a couple of ways of looking at that. If you allow one person to knock you, you’ve potentially opened the flood gates. I’d be happier for people assume I’d get pretty offended and really kick off if I’m knocked than people assuming I was an easy touch.

Without signed agreements, an in the shop negotiation is the only real option. Small claims will be too difficult without proof and just cost time and money, and a debt collector can only collect a debt if the debt is established.

I was also just thinking about what was said regarding the 15% a debt collector wants. I don’t know how much this sign is, but it’s not likely to be fortunes, so how much effort is someone going to put in to earn 15% of it?

I had this thought just as I was about to ring one of the debt recovery companies posted about £500 I’m owed with another business I have. I haven’t rung yet, because I really can’t see anyone even bothering to take all the details let alone start writing letters etc for a potential £75. It would make no sense, why would they do the leg work for 15% of something it’s not worth the likes of us pursuing.

I was recently given a £650 architect bill for a drawing a builder I’d asked to quote for a job had taken upon himself to authorise. The architect was needless to say unimpressed when I refused to pay anything. But why should I, I didn’t ask him to do a drawing, and I don’t want or need one as I’m quite capable of doing any drawings/plans myself.

I also explained that I wasn’t using that builder anyway. This is the truth, but even if it wasn’t, it’d be impossible to prove otherwise, do you see my point?

He mentioned taking me to court, and I said do what you feel you need to do, with that response he accepted the outcome. Can’t imagine him wanting to deal with that builder in a hurry again though.

[Shane Drew]

quote Bob Clarkson:

I was also just thinking about what was said regarding the 15% a debt collector wants. I don’t know how much this sign is, but it’s not likely to be fortunes, so how much effort is someone going to put in to earn 15% of it?

.

It is a % game Bob. This job may be small in your mind, but they all add up for the debt collector. Realistically they may only have to send a letter of demand on a debt collectors letter head, and in most cases, that is enough to let your client know your serious. An easy 75 quid if that is the case. Your client may not think it is worth letting his solicitor fight for, and if he knows he owes the money, it may be enough to prompt him to pay up.

Also, the collection agency will want any other business you may get, as the next job may be worth $1000’s …. so it is in their interest to show you they are up to the task. Ideally they’ll want you to suggest them to others too…

I wouldn’t right off the amount as being insignificant. Let them decide that, you may be surprised.

I know a sign shop here that tried all sorts of attempt to get less than $1000 out of a client here. The guy wouldn’t even take his phone calls, but when he did, the signie copped so much abuse it was really frustrating him.

He went with my suggestion of the no win no pay debt collector, and $150 later, literally 7 days later, he had is money in his bank. What had taken him 3 months, lots of grief and aggro, was resolved legally within days.

[Bob Clarkson]

Well, it’ll be interesting to see how it all pans out. I have no idea how you’d go about establishing the debt though, if the customer lies, they’re pretty much off the hook. With regards to the recovery cost, I suppose they’ll only send a standard letter anyway. What about doing it on-line?

I’ve only ever taken one person to small claims court. It was some years ago an uninsured driver scraped my front wing. It was pretty clear he couldn’t have afforded to pay for the repair, but due to him swearing at me and being quite aggressive I took him for £17 under the max the court could award. It took him nearly 3yrs to pay. I wasn’t expecting an outcome quite that good, and truthfully felt quite bad about it. But if people are going to drive with no insurance, then be abusive, I guess they deserve it.

[Nigel Hindley]

I’m not 100% sure why you think you wont get paid Lorraine? or even why you are worried. You have done as asked made and delivered the sign, it wasn’t rejected at that point. No one has been in touch for any reason. I wouldn’t even have gone in to see her. Depending on what you said your demeanor may have given her the idea you thought you may not get paid and may make her think it will be easy not to pay.

Anyway bottom line you done as asked there is no reason on earth why you shouldn’t get paid. So if you haven’t already get your invoice in, if its in get a reminder off immediately.

She has, luckily for you, stated the reason she got another sign was due to her mistake, but this is irrelevant until you know she wont pay?

Make it clear you are absolutely not taking no for an answer if she objects to paying, but truly cant see how she would think for a second she doesn’t have to pay if you have given all the info here.

Nigel

[Nigel Hindley]

as a PS my idea of taking someone to court isn’t always about getting your money its making sure they don’t think they can walk over you and have CCJ against them.

As for worrying about customers who don’t pay slagging you, dont, you will find more often than not that the type of person that bumps you for payment doesnt have anyone of any substance who listens to them and in more cases than not you will end u gaining their custom and sympathy.

Nigel

[Johnny Alston]

You have got to front this out with her, hand deliver the invoice and tell her you have cctv in the shop which records pictures and sound and she will be on camera confirming the order that you won’t drop the matter, but you hope it can be resolved without taking her to the small claims court and the extra costs involved.

If she pays you there and then you will take the sign away and she can take 25% off.

See what the reaction is.

[Lynn Normington]

as much as it hurts me to say walk away, after all you live and work in the community you really don’t need to be bad mouthed, maybe have a quite word with her and say "hey we screwed it up between us" not that I think you did Lorraine but there is nothing worse that putting some one on a back foot 🙄 and may be see if you can get her to pay for materials at cost, you still have the sign ( no consolation I know) but you can re-use it.
sorry folks just my take on it.

Lynn

[RayRosher]

quote Peter Normington:

A vebal contract is also binding in England,
the problem arises when you need to proove it, without witnesses, a verbal contract
is easy to deny. and not worth the paper it is written on 😉

Peter

I would have thought that the fact that the goods were delivered ready to install would be all of the proof that would be required,
Buddah bless digital cameras because most of the time a picture is the only proof that you need !

[Bob Clarkson]

That was the bit that struck me as odd. Unless I knew someone pretty well, or had done a fair bit of work for them before, I wouldn’t have left it without the money.

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but to make something like that, I’d want a significant deposit and cash on delivery for the remainder.

We have to remember, there’s a mass of opinions on here, but she might just pay up without question.

Not so much these days, but I used to do a fair few shops for woman who had no idea what they were doing, no business sense. Thing was, husband or sometimes parents were worth a fortune and wife/daughter just played shops. This could easily be the same situation.

[Martin Pearson]

Bob, I’m not saying this is true in Lorraine’s case but some people never learn. I know because I am one of them 😳 problem is that I am to trusting been bumped for money a few times and each time I say to myself that I am going to change but I never do or it only lasts a few weeks. Yes it will happen again and yes I only have myself to blame.
I might be OK at making signs but probably should be working for someone else rather than trying to run my own business.

Lynn, does Lorraine have the sign??? She delivered it before she went away on holiday so unless she collected it when she went to see the customer on her return from holiday she doesn’t have it.

[Andrew Murray]

I agree with Nigel here, from what info you’ve given there is no reason why you wont get paid for the sign. Maybe the customer knows she messed up and fully intends to pay. It seems like your making an assumption that the customer wont pay, just how i see it 😀

[Lorraine Clinch]

I still haven’t been paid, there have been a multitude of excuses, and I am now embarrassed to go into her shop, although I go past it several times a week.
I haven’t seen or heard from either her or her husband, and I don’t have the sign back either.
She has spent LOADS on the new shop, she keeps adding advertising POS – type stuff so not short of a bob or two.

Anyway, below is a copy of the letter I have finally decided to give to her. Please let me know your thoughts (on the letter, not my tardiness! 😳 )

[b]30 June 2011

Dear Lisa

Re: Outstanding debt to Absolute Signs, Stalham, of £365.00 from 29 October 2010

Below is a copy of a letter waiting to be submitted to a debt collector. This action, whilst regrettable, will be carried out if I do not have payment, by cash, in my shop by the end of today. (5pm).
The total debt is £365.00, which will be requested by the debt collectors. IF payment is received today I am willing to accept £300.00. Any lesser payment will result in the employment of the debt collector. You will then be liable for payment in full, plus costs.
I find it extremely regrettable to resort to this tactic, but, like yourself, I am a small business, with many overheads, and I certainly would not expect to come into your shop, have a beautiful haircut, colour etc, then say it was wrong 6 months later, and refuse to pay.

A shop sign made according to customers specification. Size, colour proof & discussion about size, with proofs all approved by customer, face to face.
Sign delivered prior to my going on holiday. On return a different sign was in place. When asked why not my sign she said the website address was wrong. A) this could easily have been rectified, the shop wasn’t even open when I came back, and B) the website address was exactly as she had given me, as per her print-out designed on her computer, and copied by me.
Repeated visits to her shop have been unsuccessful, as she has said "my husband needs to come and see you", then later "the colours were wrong" – despite approval from her when I printed a scale proof – and even later, " the size was smaller than I wanted" – despite discussion about size, 2 sizes printed out to scale as proofs, so she could see for herself how the sign would look, and one being chosen.
As far as I am aware I have done everything in my power to make the sign as she (the customer) requested, and approved, but now does not want.

I regret having to take this action, and hope to hear from you today Lisa.

Yours sincerely

[/b]
Lorraine Clinch
Absolute Signs

[Gary Birch]

I personally wouldn’t reduce the the debt just to get payment. If she owes £365 then that is what you want.

Cheers

Gary

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Go get ‘er.
I’d also send the letter via certified mail, which over here is something she has to sign for, thus letting you know she did receive it.
Love….Jill
PS
NO WAY I reduce the debt!
Charge her a service fee AND a late fee too.

[Neil Speirs]

Agreed, I would be adding to her bill not reducing it!

[Lorraine Clinch]

Cheers guys! I am OK about reducing the bill, as I charged a fitting fee, but obviously didn’t install it in the end. I will go into her shop and put the letter in her hand. I was going to do it today, but felt that 3 hours notice wasn’t really fair, especially as I am insisting on cash.

Lorraine

[Neil Speirs]

go kick her ass Lorraine 😉

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Send Geoff round with it if you can, she may respond better to a man.
And for the love of God please ask for the full amount.

[KevinGaffney]

I would make a point of calling in to her shop every time I’d pass by. Only takes a couple of minutes but surprising if the client sees how serious you are, they usually pay up in my experience. Usually best to start off with a nice approach on initial visits I find

[Martin Cole]

good luck Lorraine….cheeky sods

If I lived nearer to you I would go and get the money for you.
I guarantee it would be on your desk by close of play that day… including the fitting charge.

Let us know how you get on

[Hugh Potter]

i’d be adding to it too Lorraine,

as tempting as it is to take a cut to get something rather than nothing, she owes you the bill, plus all the time you have put in to getting your money.

I would calculate how many hours you’ve spent on chasing your money, explain to her that a verbal contract has been broken, hopefully you have emails to back up your story if the courts get involved.

give 48hrs to pay or interest and time cost will be added to the bill before it is sent to the debt collectors. don’t gve an inch lorraine.

Hair salons and barbers are awash with cash, perhaps not the most expensive top end but barbers… how many blokes pay for a £12 haircut with a card? it’s 99% cash, as are most average salons, they generally have good signage cos they want to get rid of a few bob! she’ll prob have even more than you think too…. the hair product people such as fudge, wella, goldwell, etc. supply all that stuff!

good luck with it.

Hugh

ps, if all else fails… sign your van up with her logo and underneath in big bold letters….. "this customer does not pay her bills", then some basic bullet points outlining the job and her defaulting / excuses, then park outside early morning, I bet she’ll have the money ready by lunchtime.

[Denise Goodfellow]

I feel for you Lorraine.

Most people have been stung at 1 time or another. Luckily ourselves have had only 2 or 3 people let us down on a payment.

Its alright people saying do this and do that, when its not them that have to do it. I find it very hard to do those things, though my husband has no trouble asking outright for money owed.

I think you have to know when to quit and when to fight. I lose enough sleep over other things in my life, sometimes we can let things get under our skin far too much.

My view, would be to move on and put the time and effort into getting other business/cash to push your company forward. I appreciate that its easy for me to say when n its not money owed to me.

GL to what ever you decide to do.

[Lorraine Clinch]

The trouble is, that as I said, I pass her shop several times a week, she is literally a few hundred yards away from my unit.
I don’t know what I have to loose by chasing this, after all, she is hardly going to recommend me now, is she?
I could start bad-mouthing her, after all I have contact with a fair few local people, between the shop and the pub, but that would reflect badly on me, more than on her!
I have decided, on reflection, that I will request all of the money, you are right, she drives a very large newish 4×4, plus this new salon, with all the fittings and flash advertising.
All because she got her website wrong!

Now, should I give her 48 hours, or 8?

👿 (?) (?)

Lorraine

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I am glad you are going for the full amount.
As I said earlier, I would add a hefty late fee.
I’d be real generous and give her until 1PM Friday to pay up or sick a lawyer on her.

[Warren Beard]

I would make her pay before leaving the shop, get a shirt made up saying she doesn’t pay her bills etc and if she doesn’t pay then put it on and stand at her entrance and don’t leave until you have cash in hand.

A vuvuzela will help draw attention 😉

good luck and don’t take any less then she owes.

cheers

Warren

[Gary Birch]

I would give 48 hours. Then threaten legal action.

I’m pretty fortunate in respect of this kind of thing, my wife is a debt recovery lawyer 😎 😀

In fact I will see if I can’t get her to draft up a letter so people can fill in the blanks and put it on here.

Good Luck anyway Lorraine.

Failing that I’m with Warren 😉

Cheers

Gary

[Peter Mindham]

I see a road trip ahead! How about a signboards trip. We can stay at the pub for the weekend camping etc and we can all go visit the shop together. Make up a few placards etc. I think it will work.
Whos up for a party at Lorraines!!

Peter

[Peter Dee]

This particular case looks rather borderline on getting a satisfactory outcome.
Having read through the details I have some queries.
The signs were delivered before going on holiday but as far as I can see the job included fitting.
What did you tell the customer?
Did they realise you weren’t going to fit them as agreed?
What was the time span from delivery to your return?

Without any kind of written order I think that proving your case could be difficult.
She could turn round and say that as you were going away she wasn’t prepared to wait, and that you went ahead anyway in the belief that just getting them delivered would be enough.

With regard to her proof and your proof, the sign she now has is totally different so can’t be deemed to be as a result of your discussions.
Equally, for her to say that she went elsewhere because the web address was wrong doesn’t ring true.
You produced a sign based on her artwork so why did the other producer not do the same design but with the corrected web address?

Something doesn’t quite add up here and I get the feeling that there has been some unclear communication.

In reality this is how a small claims registrar is likely to see it.
I’ve been down this route on a few occasions and believe me, they deal in black and white, not heresay and obscure "I said she said" comments.

There are too many black holes here to suggest who is right or wrong.
Think carefully before you proceed with any claim.
You are going to need evidence to prove that the customer did in fact place a firm order with you.
If this is a new customer, the Registrar will question why you didn’t get an advance payment.
If you can prove that an order was placed, you will need proof that you fulfilled the order completely (other than the web address which you would produce her artwork as evidence).
Bear in mind that you allowed a cost for fitting in the £365 but only delivered the signs.
If you feel that you have a good case, it will cost £35 for a claim up to £500 using Money Claim Online http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/onli … /intro.htm and to register and use the service https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
You claim back the fee as part of the claim.
MCOL claims all go through the Northampton County Court.
It’s easy to do, and 100% enforceable.
You will have to start by sending a full invoice together with a formal notice to pay; say within 7 days. Advise that legal action in the County Court will be taken should this not be paid.
When the notice expires, send another signed for letter stating that as the amount hasn’t been paid, documents will be submitted to the County Court (specify a date – say another 7 days) and no further notice will be given.
The reason for all this is that the Court expects you to give fair and reasonable notice and time to pay or they will throw it out.
If they ignore all letters and Court notices, (essentially neither admitting or defending the claim), you can issue a 6 year CCJ online.
If they dispute the claim, and you choose to keep going, it will end up moving from an online Claim to the local County Court.
At this point you really need to be sure of your provable facts and documented evidence. In Court, a Registrar will not get engaged in a detailed conversation. They will shuffle through the documentation and look for clear evidence one way or the other.
Two people sitting there giving contradicting verbal evidence will get nowhere.
I am speaking from experience of actually doing all these things.
Only once have I dropped it after hoping the online service would frighten the customer in to paying, and that was due to lack of hard proof, rather like this case.
I guess this case is weak due to there being no hard evidence of an order actually being given.
Good luck with this Lorraine, I feel for you.

[Andrew Martin]

I have never had this problem.. I have had late payers but never non-payers… yet.

I would pursue this debt even if it has dragged on, it’s the principle of the matter that counts here, she knows shes in the wrong, So how about asking one of your pub locals for say 20% of the collected debt to walk into her shop when there’s customers there and demand immediate payment, the last thing she would need is the embarrassment of unpaid debt mentioned in front of customers.
As long as there is no threatening behavior it should provide a result.

[Gwaredd Steele]

Good luck with it Lorraine. I’m chasing payment from last December from a large local company myself. They paid half, but have defaulted on the final £1000.

Sadly, it looks like they are sinking fast, so I’ve gone down the mediation route of requesting £250 a week rather than demanding they stump up the whole lot in one go.

Psychologically, it seems £250 a week is easier to pay than a one off lump sum as I received a cheque yesterday. Just have to see if it’s a rubber one now 😕

In the small claims bumf, it tells you to try for mediation before submitting a claim, as this can save you time & money.

Maybe ask her to pay £91.00 a week instead or as another option before action? This may even shame her into paying, as she may not like the thought of people thinking she’s going skint.

[Lorraine Clinch]

Hi Peter
The customer wasn’t aware that a fitting fee was on the invoice, I simply gave one costing, not a breakdown. I had intended getting the sign installed, but as she rushed me to get the sign made prior to my going away it was impossible.
I was away 3 weeks, and she opened her new shop a week after I got back.

The design she has now is a million miles away from her original design, which was very simple. I think that she got a late design, and loved it more than hers.

She had had A3 prints on her window, of her own design, in the new shop’s windows for weeks before she opened, saying ‘opening soon’ etc.
I am really pissed off with this now, apart from the fact that I didn’t have a signature, and didn’t take a deposit (I made all the signs for her last shop, and got on really well with her) I have done exactly as she asked.

It may well not be the right way to go about it, but I am about to give her a letter requesting the full amount to be paid by 1pm tomorrow, as Jill suggested.
At this stage I am willing to take it all the way, out of principle, and I don’t really care which way it goes now, but boy, am I going to enjoy handing that letter over! (If I thought she was struggling, I would feel differently).

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I’ll keep you posted.

Lorraine

[Hugh Potter]

good Luck Lorraine, we’re all behind you (in a manner of speaking).

don’t forget to have your

[size=200][color=red]"DEBT COLLECTOR"[/color][/size]

tee shirt at the ready in case she plays hard!

[Lorraine Clinch]

Cheers Hugh, letter handed over, in front of a salon full of customers and staff. We will see what transpires. Lisa was cutting hair, so I put the letter on the desk, and said, "Lisa does not want to ignore this letter" loud enough that people could hear!

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Surely it’s past 1PM Friday by now….what happened?
😮

[Andrew Martin]

Well done That should do it, nobody likes embarrassment especially when it comes to owing a debt.

[Lorraine Clinch]

Hi Jill, everyone….

Well, my letter got a reaction at last, that’s for sure.

Letter handed to me at 11.30 this morning, by one of the customers staff.

She replies with lots of FACT. statements, including that the website was wrong, but makes it sound like it was my mistake, not hers.
She also states that she never signed off a proof (lesson well and truly learnt there guys!) as some of you said she would.

She also threatens to let her solicitors onto me if I continue to chase her.
However, she has offered the sign back, and £50 towards my time. Hmmm…

I think she must have read Peter Dee’s post, as she has done exactly what he suggested might happen.

Not sure what to do now, going to think about it over the weekend.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

That sucks.
But it’s a lesson you won’t forget and one we can all live by.

-never even turn on your computer without a deposit
-make sure the client signs off on the job before production starts
-full payment upon delivery or no delivery unless other arrangements have been made in advance

…sounds like she’s a bit of an expert at this, perhaps this isn’t her first time at the rodeo if you know what I mean.

[Gavin MacMillan]

That really sucks Lorraine, not a great ending.

quote :

-never even turn on your computer without a deposit

but seriously does anyone actually do this? We would not be in business if we operated like that, yeah sure we lose a bit every year, yes it’s a nightmare and drives me mad but as a business you build it in.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I do it every day.
No more stolen designs or wasted time.
If they are serious enough to give me a deposit, that means they are a serious customer.

[Peter Mindham]

Have to agree with Jill. You cannot rely on trust these days. Even long established companies will stiff you. Its partly the economy and partly the way the world is changing. There is little respect shown to others by people and it is reflected in all walks of life. Don’t get me started on this rant 😕

Deposit, signed approval payment on delivery. ALWAYS.

Peter

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

Gotta say this again guys, it’s working for me….. 90% of the time I get money up front for the whole job, failing that at least 50%….. No one takes a vehicle away from my workshop without paying. No money, no keys!

Obviously I do this in the nicest possible way… occasionally I will let one go if it means keeping the job, but I had to wait nearly 2 months for a £2k cheque once after having paid out my suppliers £1200 ……. gotta tell you, that didn’t help my cash flow much.

Anyone who pays in full, I generally give them £20-£50 cash back when they collect or we deliver and say, I got a good deal on the materials because I combined your job with another, I saved £50… here you go! (obviously in relation to the job) brings people back lots!

Sorry Lorraine, that’s a bummer…… I hope it hasn’t done you too much harm x

BigMo

[Colin Smyth]

I agree Mo, we have had to start doing the same thing with new customers, take a deposit and no-one gets any complete job without payment. I now give a quote for the job before spending time on designs, if they are happy with cost, we move to design stage but even then I insist that customers call in to have a look at any designs we do. We wont email or give a hard copy, if they like it, price agreed, deposit paid, everyone happy. if they don’t like the deisgn, we tweak it there and then and hopefully get them to agree, if not, no harm done. Yes we waste a bit of time on design but at least we wont see a shop sign or van with our design on it.
Don’t know what its like in the uk but in NI, i think its just way too easy for the customer to get away without paying, theres no real way to scare them into paying, most will know, that they will not end up in court or even if they do, payment can’t be enforced! Deposit and full payment upon collection/delivery is the only answer.
The way I look at it, if anyone has a problem with you asking for part payment, they are probably never gonna pay up anyway!

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

It’s one of those things, I, like a lot of people used to to have a problem asking for money up front, we are either scared of asking in case we blow the deal or think that it’s not "the done thing". If you feel like this then your customer is going to sense it subconsciously and you probably will blow the deal.

You have to practice and get confident enough to just ask, it took me a long time but now I don’t even think about it, I just state the terms and say "How would you like to pay now?" it’s very rare that anyone has a problem with it.

Lets face it if they are buying they have the money to pay for it, you need to get that money now before they spend it elsewhere…. this case is a"perfect" example of that. If they don’t have the money right now, then why are they ordering? In the hope they have got the money by the time it’s done? I wouldn’t like to do business under those terms.

Also that stops them getting a better quote after you have sold your service, I think that’s probably what has happened here. Someone phoned me today asking about a sign, I quoted £200 and before the end of the phone call he had paid with his card, without even seeing a design… Now he can’t go anywhere else.

[Lorraine Clinch]

You are all right, I really must tighten up my procedures, I am simply too trusting. Even customers who offer to pay in advance usually get ‘ no worries, pay me when you collect’. Must be why I have a stack of uncollected signs….

Anyway, I think I will pen a really nice letter to her, Allowing that there were obviously communication problems, and leave it at that.

Mind you, by the end of the weekend I may have changed my mind again!

Lorraine

[Lorraine Clinch]

Also that stops them getting a better quote after you have sold your service, I think that’s probably what has happened here. Someone phoned me today asking about a sign, I quoted £200 and before the end of the phone call he had paid with his card, without even seeing a design… Now he can’t go anywhere else.

Mo, that is cracking! I would love to have your business sense.

[Martin Cole]

mmm.. a lesson learned I guess Lorraine.

Peter Dee is on the nose, if it went to court there was no black and white evidence to back you up and even arbitration, I feel it would have been closer but still you would have been the loser.

After reading through the initial post again she should not have told you to go ahead and definitely a responsibility lays on her shoulders and may be she will learn a lesson aswell. However she is suffering no loss except for possibly 50 quid.

Penning a nice letter.to her, I’m not so sure and I would chew on that over the weekend, before deciding.

Time to move on and tighten the reigns as all have said.

If it happened to me and similar circumstances have over the years. I would have got my money..or most of it. Only once in all my years trading has someone not paid me and that was about £40.
I’m a lovely guy untill people take the p1ss out of me or owe me money. Maybe being 6’5” and 18 stone helps
😛

Chill and have a lovely weekend

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

quote Lorraine Clinch:

Mo, that is cracking! I would love to have your business sense.

Thanks Lorraine but it never used to be a sense, it’s been learned over the years. We all have the ability to acquire the skills, it just takes time. I wouldn’t mind betting that I wish I had your sign making skills 😉

In the beginning it feels awkward asking for the money up front, but once you get into the habit, it will just come naturally. as long as your customer feels he is getting a good deal, weather that’s the price or quality of service and product, then he will be happy to pay, it’s up to you to give him a good reason there and then for parting with his dough!

You can do it! we are all here if you need support!

[Ian Johnston]

quote Colin Smyth:

I agree Mo, we have had to start doing the same thing with new customers, take a deposit and no-one gets any complete job without payment. I now give a quote for the job before spending time on designs, if they are happy with cost, we move to design stage but even then I insist that customers call in to have a look at any designs we do. We wont email or give a hard copy, if they like it, price agreed, deposit paid, everyone happy. if they don’t like the deisgn, we tweak it there and then and hopefully get them to agree, if not, no harm done. Yes we waste a bit of time on design but at least we wont see a shop sign or van with our design on it.
Don’t know what its like in the uk but in NI, i think its just way too easy for the customer to get away without paying, theres no real way to scare them into paying, most will know, that they will not end up in court or even if they do, payment can’t be enforced! Deposit and full payment upon collection/delivery is the only answer.
The way I look at it, if anyone has a problem with you asking for part payment, they are probably never gonna pay up anyway!

we have a few shared customers Colin, that only a stick of dynamite would shift payment out off. Espically one recently bust and now renamed lisburn shopfitter 😮 😛

[Lorraine Clinch]

I think that my "real" problem is that I am a nurse. I was a Practice (as in GP practice) nurse for about 18 years, then went on to community nursing.
What (REAL) nurse asks anyone for money, for their own use, unless they are a bit…well, you know. NOT in the UK, that’s for sure.
I do have a problem asking for money. I devalue myself, and I am Very aware of that.
When you are in a very small Market town, with bigger sign makers not too far away, and internet sign makers at the end of their fingers, what can you do? Pricing has to be done on overheads, and just hope that the customers don’t, after getting your quote, go to EBay.

Must admit, I am getting a wee bit fed up with the sh* t.

Lorraine

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Believe it or not I am a very timid person in real life.
I was always nervous about asking for money but dammit I am providing a valuable service. I do love my job, but I don’t make signs just because it’s fun. I want paid.
I have kids to feed and bills to pay.
A good friend once told me long ago "Never be afraid to ask for YOUR money."
This woman obviously was not afraid to leave you hanging for almost a fricking year. I’m sure she gets paid after every haircut she gives.
I ask for a deposit, not the entire amount.
It’s part of a good faith agreement that gets the ball rolling on the job.
This is serious business, not a hobby, and if a customer is serious about the job, they will give me a deposit.
It’s simple.
If they are the least bit edgy about it, you can bet they will be even more difficult once the job is done and you ask to be paid in full.
Live and learn.

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

quote Lorraine Clinch:

When you are in a very small Market town, with bigger sign makers not too far away, and internet sign makers at the end of their fingers, what can you do? Pricing has to be done on overheads, and just hope that the customers don’t, after getting your quote, go to EBay.

Must admit, I am getting a wee bit fed up with the sh* t.

Lorraine

Lorraine, even more reason for you to get tough now and start asking for payment or at least a deposit, you can do it, that will stop people shopping around.

You won’t be able to do it right away, when we talk about skills in business or making signs or anything that we do even driving a car there are a few stages that we go through which may help you to see that you will be able to start asking in the future, it’s not instinct, you can learn to do it.

Unconsciously Incompetent:
We have no idea what we are doing or how to do it. For example the first time you ever got in a car to drive and had no idea how it worked. (you are probably here at this moment, don’t take that the wrong was but it is an art asking for payment, or selling and there are lots of books and internet sites that can show you what you should be doing)

Consciously Incompetent:
This is better, because we know what we are "Supposed" to do but we still can’t do it properly. Example, learning to drive, we know what the clutch does and the gears but we still let it out too fast and stall the car. Or the first couple of times you laminated or put graphics on something.

Consciously Competent:
This is excellent, because we know what we are supposed to do and we are making the effort to get everything right: Example, when you take your driving test, most people are consciously competent. Another example may be when you have learned how to wrap a car but have only done 3 or 4. You know what your doing but you really have to concentrate to do a good job.

Unconsciously competent:
The Ultimate goal. You know exactly what you are doing and don’t even think about it, you just do it automatically. Example, you now drive your car with the radio on, arm out the window, smoking a fag, singing, adjusting your sat nav, texting and you change gear without even knowing you have done it most of the time. Or, I saw robs instruction video on fitting window frosting, that is a classic example of someone who is unconscionably competent.

When I’m selling or asking for payment I tend to float between Unconsciously competent and consciously competent, listening and making an effort to react properly to your customers needs and ability to pay. Again with driving, I use both of these methods as there are times when you really need to concentrate on what you are doing (I drive fire appliances with blue lights part time so being Unconsciously competent could be dangerous).

So really, if you find out how to do it and then keep doing it, after a period of time you will soon be Unconsciously competent, obviously the more you do it, the faster you will get there. It’s worth sitting down with a pen and paper shortly after each time you ask for the payment up front and making notes on what you thought you did right and what you could improve, even if you get the sale and the payment, make a note of why you thought you got it. Listening is the key, good sales people listen 80% of the time and only talk 20% if your good the customer will close themselves.

I have a few other tricks that I use to get payments. I give them 3 different prices if they are not sure:

these are just examples

order now pay 10% deposit balance on completion £500
order now pay 50% deposit balance on completion £450
order now pay full balance £400

(make sure you load the price a bit first)

I may do some tutorials on sales when I get the chance, I could contribute to the forum in that way as I’m a novice when it comes to sign making, especially compared to most of the people in the forum. But I have some decent enough sales experience to be able to be of benefit I think.

Anyway, sorry to bore you guys….. I’m always happy to coach if you need help Lorraine. Im expensive but I will show you how to increase your sales by up to 50%, how much is that worth to you? I accept card payments, would you prefer to pay by card now or cash? 😉 😉 (jus kiddin, but you see what I mean)

BigMo x

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

Hey how come fag is a swear word? lol Oim aaaavin a faaag

[Peter Mindham]

It is easy for us to undervalue our time and experience. But we paid to get the experience and our time is as valuable as the next person. You have a greater value than you might think Lorrainne and need to charge accordingly. If you lose them to cheaper competitors perhaps you didnt need them anyway.

Take the £50.00 and the sign and move on wiser from the experience.

Don’t lose sleep over it now, the ex customer is not worth it.

Peter

[Phill Fenton]

Hang on a minute -what about the letter you just sent her?

quote Lorraine Clinch:

[b]30 June 2011

Dear Lisa

Re: Outstanding debt to Absolute Signs, Stalham, of £365.00 from 29 October 2010

Below is a copy of a letter waiting to be submitted to a debt collector. This action, whilst regrettable, will be carried out if I do not have payment, by cash, in my shop by the end of today. (5pm).
The total debt is £365.00, which will be requested by the debt collectors. IF payment is received today I am willing to accept £300.00. Any lesser payment will result in the employment of the debt collector. You will then be liable for payment in full, plus costs.
I find it extremely regrettable to resort to this tactic, but, like yourself, I am a small business, with many overheads, and I certainly would not expect to come into your shop, have a beautiful haircut, colour etc, then say it was wrong 6 months later, and refuse to pay.

A shop sign made according to customers specification. Size, colour proof & discussion about size, with proofs all approved by customer, face to face.
Sign delivered prior to my going on holiday. On return a different sign was in place. When asked why not my sign she said the website address was wrong. A) this could easily have been rectified, the shop wasn’t even open when I came back, and B) the website address was exactly as she had given me, as per her print-out designed on her computer, and copied by me.
Repeated visits to her shop have been unsuccessful, as she has said “my husband needs to come and see you”, then later “the colours were wrong” – despite approval from her when I printed a scale proof – and even later, ” the size was smaller than I wanted” – despite discussion about size, 2 sizes printed out to scale as proofs, so she could see for herself how the sign would look, and one being chosen.
As far as I am aware I have done everything in my power to make the sign as she (the customer) requested, and approved, but now does not want.

I regret having to take this action, and hope to hear from you today Lisa.

Yours sincerely

[/b]
Lorraine Clinch
Absolute Signs

Okay, she still hasn’t paid up and she’s now threatening you with her solicitor 🙄

The next step is to carry out your threat and pass this on to a dept collector.

Don’t go giving up yet when you haven’t even started formal debt collection procedures. You need to speak to a reputable agency for advice.

[Martin Oxenham]

We always take a deposit even from people we know and are regulars we always say "its nothing personal just business. You might get hit by a bus next week and then where will we be"

[Martin Pearson]

Lorraine, easy for me to say I know but I agree with Phill on this, I think you should follow up on the letter you sent her. If you don’t whats to stop her spreading it about that it’s easy to get away without paying you.

In all honesty if it had been me I would have just wrote it off as I have done on a lot of occasions, your not the only one who can’t ask for money and undervalues themselves, I can’t see me ever changing so wish you more luck than I’ve had.

Mo, I am sure it took you many years to learn your selling skills. Just out of interest do you find much difference now it’s yourself your working for rather than someone else??

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

quote Martin:

Mo, I am sure it took you many years to learn your selling skills. Just out of interest do you find much difference now it’s yourself your working for rather than someone else??

Hi Martin, simple answer is yes and no (is that a simple answer?) I have been doing it so long it’s just second nature for me now, the hard part is that once I have sold I have to produce the product, which is the bit I never used to do, I just sold and picked up my commission, although I had to follow the sale through to delivery to make sure the customer was satisfied, I could get more sales while everything was being produced.

I have also had a few business that I have built up through my selling experience and sold on so it’s nothing new to me.

So I can’t sell as much when your working on your own, it’s a hard balance, trying to expand I can’t market enough to bring in more money to employ someone to take on more work, it’s a bit of a paradox. Especially as i started with no cash investment and built the business from the ground up, I’m at a stalemate!

I spend a few days generating leads or cold calling, then a few days selling, that’s a week, the I have to stop the lead generation and selling while I produce and fit, which means I can just about meet my overheads and my salary, then rinse and repeat. I have tried getting someone in, I think I can get enough business in to make up their salary by the end of the month, but after a couple of weeks training, ergo no selling your a few thousand quid behind and now with a salary bill to find! Doh!

I have just moved to a bigger unit though where I can work after 6 at night and weekends and bank holidays (something that my previous unit didn’t afford me) so with a few month hard work and long hours I may be able to get in a position to employ so I can sell more (new unit is cheaper and right opposite my house so I have really hit gold there, saving about £300 a month just on fuel)

I find selling really easy, on the phone, face to face and via email. Most of you guys can probably design, fit and finish a livery job in your sleep because you have been doing it so long… selling is the same for me. It’s no different, but my boss is a complete nob! 😉

[Martin Pearson]

Well you can’t have everything Mo, my boss is a complete prat when it comes to selling and collecting payment. If he could sort out even one of these skills he could pay me more money :lol1: :lol1:

[Peter Dee]

quote Lorraine Clinch:

Hi Jill, everyone….

Well, my letter got a reaction at last, that’s for sure.

Letter handed to me at 11.30 this morning, by one of the customers staff.

She replies with lots of FACT. statements, including that the website was wrong, but makes it sound like it was my mistake, not hers.
She also states that she never signed off a proof (lesson well and truly learnt there guys!) as some of you said she would.

She also threatens to let her solicitors onto me if I continue to chase her.
However, she has offered the sign back, and £50 towards my time. Hmmm…

I think she must have read Peter Dee’s post, as she has done exactly what he suggested might happen.

Not sure what to do now, going to think about it over the weekend.

Let it go Lorraine and move on. Take her offer as it looks like the best you can hope for and will buy you peace of mind. Looks like miscommunication was the main problem. This will make you sharpen up and avoid similar pitfalls.
To be honest, I don’t think you would stand a chance by pursuing this any further.

[Jason Xuereb]

Peter is right.

Don’t look at this as lost money.

Look at this as you taking a course in business about how to conduct business and always taking a deposit and having signed confirmation of jobs.

Accept deposits or purchase orders from your clients. Nothing less. If people want spec work send them to 99designs.

I know this amount may be a fair bit to you but in the long run it will be a small amount to invest in your knowledge to improve your business skills.

Peter is giving you good advice although hard to swallow when you are morally in the right but when it comes to business there is whats called legal and illegal and they don’t always match up against wrong and right.

[David Hammond]

I’ve had a similar experience.

Design and printed a vehicle livery for a driving school. The two partners had a row, and went their separate ways. Neither wanting to pay for the work.

I eventually stomached binning the lot (puppy-eyes)

I never got a penny for it.

Since then I have sat down and thought about a proper workflow for customers, so I don’t end up doing a design then they change their mind when they find out how much it will be to make.

I now try and quote for the design of the sign, and during the design process advise them of the costs, so they can say stop at any time.

I also get a 50% deposit off all my clients, with the remainder due within 7 days of the installation. I wouldn’t be happy paying full price for something until I receive it, and know it’s all ok.

I only struggle to give a price on the design of the sign, as I just don’t know how long it will take… and until the design is finalised I can’t give a price.

Sadly maybe I think what others has said is correct… learn from this mistake, and prevent it happening again.

[Lorraine Clinch]

As the customer told me the sign was behind her shop, I had a look a few days ago, when I realised that the area was an open alleyway. The boards were behind wheeled commercial size refuse bins. They are buckled, bent and unuseable. So, where now?

I can’t ignore this, I will have to respond in some way, or she really has had me shafted, and will be laughing all the way to the bank.

I ordered in 3m coloured alupanel cut to size for her job specifically, I think I am going to have to write asking for the cost of the boards, print & laminate, at the very least.

Or do I just ignore?

Lorraine

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I’d hang them in your pub with c*nt written across them.
:lol1:

[Glenn Sharp]

in Brush Script?

[Jamie Wood]

^^^^ ARF!! ^^^^

[Brian Little]

quote Jill Marie Welsh:

I’d hang them in your pub with c*nt written across them.
:lol1:

love it when you talk dirty jill 😀

[Peter Mindham]

I still think a road trip is in order.

[David-Foster-]

quote Jill Marie Welsh:

I’d hang them in your pub with c*nt written across them.
:lol1:

Is that cant as in cant pay wont pay? 😉

[Jon Marshall]

I used moneyclaim recently and got paid. Might be worth a go if she doesn’t want a ccj.

[Hugh Potter]

Lorraine,
speak to a debt collecting agency, if you’re a member of the FSB then call their helplines, if not then it’s worth the joining fee!

I think the FSB also has an affiliated firm for debt collecting who work on no win no fee sort of thing.

give it to them and stop losing sleep over it!

Hugh

[Peter Dee]

Lorraine, I think you should have removed your signs straight away.
A Court would ask the same question.
Forget about worrying that she might get one over on you.
Every day that you anguish over this she is doing just that.