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help applying vinyl in cold weather.
Does anyone have any tips for applying lettering in the cold weather? on a JCB diggers roof.
would a hairdryer help heat up the plastic roof abit maybe?
BC. -
59 Replies
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When writing vans in the cold, I used to put a paraffin heater in the back of the van to warm the panels. It works perfectly On reflection, I guess it could have all ended in tears. Don’t think I’d be brave enough to do it these days. Sorry I’ve just burnt out your 15K van and I don’t think my insurance will cover it 😳
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I tried heaters in the back of vans, but it doesn’t work, to much area to warm up, and compete with the ambient temperature.
there are no tips other than to put the vehicle in a heated workshop for several hours before starting, I dont fit vinyl in the cold, anything less than 10 degrees is risky, although some vinyls can be fitted at 5 degrees,
If it is risky to fit why take the chance?
Peter -
We do "allot" of JCB’s and the like… get them in out the cold.
if you don’t the vinyl will fail. simple as… you may get it on in place, but it will be all off again in a matter of weeks, if not days.we do various companies and always get them inside. yes, the workshops are often cold, but never as cold as outside. the fact you are working on a fiberglass roof or similar means that the surface will not be as cold as the rest of the metal body of the vehicle.
Do NOT use a hairdryer. use a proper heatgun/paint stripper device.
you should be looking to pay at least £24-£40 for a decent heat gun.
dont go for the cheap ones. there are various reasons they are cheap.anyway, pre-heat the surface of the roof using your heatgun.
do not hold it close, or pause at any time with the heatgun.
always keep it moving back and forward over an area of about 16inch square… then move on…
once you have heat the area, allow it to cool slightly. dont apply it to a warm surface or it will just stick fast.DO NOT APPLY using water. this will only cause you more grief and guarantee the vinyl to fail.
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i recall doing a car in january some years ago and it snowed! lots of heat as ROb says and it was still stuck well a year later when the guy removed it all.
wouldn’t recommend it though.
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quote Peter Normington:I tried heaters in the back of vans, but it doesn’t work, to much area to warm up, and compete with the ambient temperature.
there are no tips other than to put the vehicle in a heated workshop for several hours before starting, I dont fit vinyl in the cold, anything less than 10 degrees is risky, although some vinyls can be fitted at 5 degrees,
If it is risky to fit why take the chance?
PeterWe find heaters in the back works quite well but we stick an electric heater in usually for round 30 mins before we start. Not only does the vinyl stick better, you can warm your hands too!
When a van is lined it doesn’t work so well but its better than applying to freezing metal!
Nigel
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I remember standing in a lot in Southalll a couple of years ago in May putting vinyl on vans in the snow. Had no choice as they were being delivered the next day. Went through a heat gun that day, warming panels and such. Have also put propane heaters in back of vans to warm them up. Wouldn’t do either now as far too risky. In fact, just turned down a wrap on a Jag because of the weather. Even in our heated shop, did not want to warranty the work. Fitting jobs are rescheduled until its a bit warmer unless there is no way to avoid it or the vehicle can be inside overnight.
Peter
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I fit Ultramark at anything above freezing, although not wet if it’s even near to that. When it’s said the vinyl will fail, what does it do? I’ve never had a problem. I do accept the vinyl can get quite brittle, but if the van’s dry it’ll stick fine.
A heater in the van unquestionably works. Ok I guess if you put a one bar electric fire in the back of a 7.5 tonner it won’t, but a reasonable electric or gas heater would theoretically heat the lounge, so it’ll get a Transit up to toasty. If you don’t accept this as fact, give it a go for yourself.
Obviously it’s best to have a nice heated workshop, but if you don’t have one you can’t stop writing vans around 2 months of the year.
I can imagine a wrap being a major problem, but lettering in a reasonable quality vinyl isn’t, or at least never has been to me.
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Fitted this wee beauty 3 weeks ago and belieive me it was less than 0 degrees, havent had any call back yet touch wood.
Saying that if the job required a smart finish I woudnt have tried it.
James
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I did a van today onsite for customer and it was -5 after 2 hours i thought i was having an outerbody experience it was that could i was in pain.
I was using Avery 700 & 900 and it seemed to take okay, (half expecting some comeback though but it was an urgent job, also had the heat gun with me but had no electric nearby)
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I done a Midi van years ago, wet application, and it froze that night. It would have been finished for around 4hrs when it frosted over.
It was a lease van, and it lasted for the duration of the lease. That was in 3m, but I’ve had similar with ultramark.
The icing over obviously can’t be a good thing, but stick a random vinyl letter somewhere discrete on your vans tomorrow, when it’s freezing cold, don’t warn the panel, just ensure it’s bone dry. Then this time next year post what happened to it. It’ll still be there!
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yeah thats all i did today made sure it was bone dry, no ice and warmed the panel as much as i could with my hands before i applied….. Your a brave man doing a wet application in the cold.
Cant remember the last time i wet applied anything, probs some floadcoated windows at the beginning of last year.
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Went to wrap 2 bonnets and grilles yesterday which were at a body shop and were crash repairs. Drove to Swindon (2hrs) walked in reception and asked to be shown the vans.
The very nice manager asked if I wanted them inside? They were in the car park with 3+ inches of snow covering them.
I laughed and walked away. Invoice to follow.
Matt
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Well done Matt – that’s precisely what I would have done too. I’m astonished at the total lack of consideration some people give and the only way to deal with their ignorance is to walk away and send them a bill for wasting your time.
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To be fair I would have made sure they were inside and dry before I set off on a two hour journey
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Matt defo the right thing. Sent a guy away last week as he wouldn’t pay hours labour for me to wash his van. I need the work as bad as the next, but we don’t valet vehicles and the van was about 3 inches thick in mud etc. He came back with it cleaned an hour later.
Couldn’t imagine fitting at -5 though without the vinyl breaking.
To me it is all about manners.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
The first attempt on floodcoating the rear windows in white cracked a little but worked fine and stuck well on next attempt.
Dont think i will be doing many more vans outside in this weather though not worth the pain 🙄
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Hi Glenn
The customer assured me they were inside and had been overnight! I’m not that naive that I’d have driven there without checking!
The body shop had lied to the customer about the conditions, hence I walked away!
Matt
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Needless to say, if I’d got there and that’d happened I’d have been unimpressed, but I’d have stuck it out and billed a bit higher. I’d have also remembered and stung them a little more on any possible repeat work.
As they would have no obligation to pay, I’d have had to have looked at it as "in for a penny, in for a pound"
When I use contractors on developments I do, it’s bacon sandwiches, sausage rolls, a constant supply of tea and coffee and treat them with total respect. Partly because it’s my nature, and partly because I know how much it costs people to be unreasonable with me. A bit of decency never hurt anyone, and it keeps moral up which leads to a better, faster job.
Years ago, I was writing a van by hand in the freezing cold, the guy came of his house holding a cup of coffee and told me how much it was warming him up! I couldn’t believe it, I didn’t get offered one. My initially reaction was to punch him straight in the face, but I settled for sticking a score on the job. I’m not really a people person…
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the adhesive on the rear of vinyl needs a mix of pressure when applied and heat to cure. this is why its AKA Pressure sensitive vinyl film.
back in the day, nylon squeegees were required to apply. they provided adequate pressure to expel air, but also friction heat to kick start the adhesive curing. time and varying weather temperatures finalised the bonding process.back then only cast vinyl was available. which of course came with the cast characteristics of the vinyl. by that i mean, aggressive adhesive, stick on contact, thin, there for easy stretched, snaps/shatters easy in very cold weather and so on. as a result many sign makers struggled with applying the vinyls due to lack of training and knowledge. here, in comes the wet app method. it was never recomended and has never been warranted by suppliers as the correct method of application. it simply came about because of sign makers inability to work successfully with the film.
Wet Application:
no matter how good you "think" you are at applying vinyl wet. you cannot get all the moisture out from behind the film.
in winter temperatures this trapped moisture can do nothing but freeze over night. when it freezes it expands. when it expands it pushes the vinyl away from the vehicle surface, leaving very little contact.
along comes a pressure washer and blows off lettering or chips bits away from the graphics. this isnt just my view on it. its fact….
personally speaking, i have no doubt many folk will have applied wet in the cold and may well have not had a come back. my opinion on that is you have been lucky. nothing more.i have went head to head in very cold but sunny conditions. i was wrapping a truck, GRP body. so not as cold as metal. feet from me there was two teams of fitters from a large sign firm down south. they did several vehicles in the time it took me to do one large one. (35ft long)
I fitted dry, they fitted wet…
the next day i arrived to do vehicle 2, on arrival the company owners and others were standing arguing with the team of fitters. all their vehicles fitted from the previous day had failed very badly. "complete truck wraps done with experienced fitters from a big firm… wet" the reason was what i have just posted above….
this was a disaster on a BIG scale. so i don’t need convincing that wet a cold weather is an option. if it is, its a foolish one to consider. just my opinion of course.any sort of fitting in cold weather requires heat. and by that i mean DRY.
indoors, in cold conditions the surface should be heated. vinyl applied and once in place reheat to promote adhesion.i would also advise (if possible) application tape even on some laminated jobs. the vinyl easily shatters in the cold once removed from the carrying paper.
vehicle wrapping in the cold is a no go from the start.
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I agree Rob except on one thing, fibre glass is not any warmer than a steel body.
it may feel it because it reflect the heat back to your hand. same as polystyrene feels warm, but isn’t.
next time you do a fibre glass or plastic body put your thermometer on it and a metal part.
Peter -
Then I have been consistently lucky since 1986. Calendered vinyl was available in 1986, as was stabilised callendered, which is the product most people are now using, even if it is under a slightly different guise.
The difference between cast and calendered is the production of the vinyl. Cast is formed from a liquid, calendered/stabilised calendered is formed from basically rolling a ball of vinyl till it’s flat. This is why it shrinks, it’s not really shrinking, it’s trying to go back to it’s original form.
3m advised wet application back in the 80s, they even done courses, I know this because I’ve done one. Wet application was originally formed because of the bubbles and creases caused by doing it dry, and the fact it was not at all forgiving if applied incorrectly aligned. As you said, if it touched it was stuck. This does however not seem to be the general opinion, but I was doing this long before we even had a "@" symbol on our keyboards, because no one generally had email.
The law of averages means I cannot have no understanding or have been doing this wrong for over 25yrs and have had no problems. If my luck were that good I’d be on the next flight to Vagas. 😎
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peter, im not disagreeing because i simply do not know if you are correct or not. what i will say though is… i wrapped an artic lorry trailer outside in near freezing conditions outside on a clear sky sunny day just a few weeks ago. (on the say so from the company owner)
however, i hit two issues…
the vinyl applied perfectly fine to the GRP body. but the metal angle at the top and bottom of the GRP panel which is the frame work to the box. caused problems due to it being so cold. basically the vinyl fitted perfectly the entire length of the truck but continually, at the very top and very bottom parts of the vinyl the vinyl shattered anc came off in bits. this didnt cause me problems as we trim that part off anyway, but was a pain in the ar$e.
when it came to do the back doors i refused to complete the trailer because of the stainless steel hinges and bars that make up these doors. everywhere the vinyl would have come into contact with the steel the vinyl would have shattered.
no need for the crash course on how vinyl is produced bob, i have none that for many uears.
bob, no disrespect, but 20 experience for one, doesn’t mean its the same for another. the level and volume of work one person does in a week can easily outweigh anothers in a month. am i correct in saying you were a traditional sign writer and now do vinyl work on a part time basis?
i mean nothing by that other than an example of your time in the trade is not the same as my time in the trade or the next guy for that matter.regardless to 3M, Avery, Mactac etc showing you how to fit WET does not mean it is correct. ide also imagine it to be a supplier of 3M and not actually 3M, there for they have vinyl to sell… they will show you regardless to get the product sold. should it come back failed, the finger will be pointed at you and your method of application.
where in any sort of warranty does it say applying with soap and water to be the proper procedure and if it fails your covered?A supplier was promoted recently in Sign Up-date magazine. they were pushing wrapping courses by a guy with 20 odd years in the trade. the guy was actually pushing his own training too. they were using a calendered film to wrap and using a hair dryer to cure it. The supplier hadnt a clue, nor did the guy doing the training. and needless to say, nor did the magazine or they would not have published such nonsense.
as i said, i mean no disrespect anyone, this is my opinion just trying to explain things from my corner.
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quote Peter Normington:I agree Rob except on one thing, fibre glass is not any warmer than a steel body.
Nah, you’re wrong Peter.
GRP is a much lower conducter of heat then steel. Consequently it will never get as cold when placed in the same environment (unless it was placed in these conditions for a very long time – days or weeks even).
An extreme example of this phenomenon are the space shuttle heat tiles which can be heated with a blow torch then placed on the hands within seconds without burning. They have such a low heat conductivity they simply do not heat up (or at the opposite extreme – would cool down) any thing like as quickly as steel would.
Thus in practice – you will always find a GRP body on a vehicle is never as cold as a steel bodied vehicle unless both were parked outside in extreme cold for many months at a time.
😛
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quote :A supplier was promoted recently in Sign Up-date magazine. they were pushing wrapping courses by a guy with 20 odd years in the trade. the guy was actually pushing his own training too. they were using a calendered film to wrap and using a hair dryer to cure it. The supplier hadnt a clue, nor did the guy doing the training. and needless to say, nor did the magazine or they would not have published such nonsense.ohh missed that – which issue Rob I will see if I still have it lying around 😉
Just my twoppenneth ive done lots of panel vans etc on contract in the midlands at around 1 – 4 deg, flat sided text and logos using LG chem because it was warranted down to 4 deg temperature 60 plus vehicles no comebacks
However in principle Robs right for anyone reading this and wanting to know the dictionary definition of how this work should be approached. 😮
John
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quote :Nah, you’re wrong Peter.
Mm not sure Phil think Peter is correct, there is no such thing as Cold just a lack of heat/energy hence when you touch surfaces some feel colder than others (the conductivity bit you were on about) as heat leaves your hands at different rates into the substrate (thats the bit that makes you feel one surface is colder than another) but they are in fact actually the same temp.
Confused im going for a lie down
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I acknowledge to put down Robert, and yes I am a traditional signwriter. I got into vinyl at pretty much the very start. As much as I’ve moved onto other things, I did manage quite ok on it for best part of 15yrs.
All I said was I’d been doing it like that all those years and had no problems, that cannot be luck. As suggesting I’ve spent 25yrs learning nothing, can’t be constructive.
At the risk of being offensive, I have a mensa IQ and a degree, I think It’s a little degrading to assume I can’t get a grip on the concept of sticky letters.
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quote John Harding:quote :Nah, you’re wrong Peter.
Mm not sure Phil think Peter is correct, there is no such thing as Cold just a lack of heat/energy hence when you touch surfaces some feel colder than others (the conductivity bit you were on about) as heat leaves your hands at different rates into the substrate (thats the bit that makes you feel one surface is colder than another) but they are in fact actually the same temp.
You must’ve googled that :lol1: :lol1:
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quote Matty Goodwin:Hi Glenn
The customer assured me they were inside and had been overnight! I’m not that naive that I’d have driven there without checking!
The body shop had lied to the customer about the conditions, hence I walked away!
Matt
Yep…fair does Matty….I just didn’t pick any of that up from your original post
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quote Bob Clarkson:I acknowledge to put down Robert, and yes I am a traditional signwriter. I got into vinyl at pretty much the very start. As much as I’ve moved onto other things, I did manage quite ok on it for best part of 15yrs.
All I said was I’d been doing it like that all those years and had no problems, that cannot be luck. As suggesting I’ve spent 25yrs learning nothing, can’t be constructive.
At the risk of being offensive, I have a mensa IQ and a degree, I think It’s a little degrading to assume I can’t get a grip on the concept of sticky letters.
not at all bob, this is the reason i have said, and repeated "i mean no disrespect to anyone". It is very easy to misinterpret how something is meant, via text.
not sure what having a mensa IQ & degree has to do with "sticky letters" bob… 😕
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Can I just add a question into the mix?
Did anyone starting in the trade circa 25 years ago with a spandex gerber 4b ever get told to apply dry? Spandex were one of (if not the) original suppliers of vinyl and I very much remember reading spandex literature explaining how to apply wet and even going so far as to name the chemicals to avoid in your chosen brand of washing up liquid.
We now apply dry but started of doing things wet with no thought to an alternative as it was how we were shown. Time constraints and an increased skill level over the years moved us on to applying dry and would not look back.
Rob I agree with all your points but not your militancy – in my opinion, on occasion wet is better and quicker with no risk of failure. These times are few and far between but they exist.
Bob, if you did this full time as your only source of income you would now apply dry, materials have changed dramatically over the years and if you were doing it all the time I have no doubt you would have adapted like most people in the trade. With your experience you would very quickly adapt your existing skills to suit dry application. Your methods or not ‘wrong’ in my mind and I agree that you are not guaranteeing failures but you would be unable to compete on speed and therefore price using these methods.
Just my honest opinion.
G
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quote Gavin MacMillan:Did anyone starting in the trade circa 25 years ago with a spandex gerber 4b ever get told to apply dry? Spandex were one of (if not the) original suppliers of vinyl and I very much remember reading spandex literature explaining how to apply wet and even going so far as to name the chemicals to avoid in your chosen brand of washing up liquid.
I am sure we were the first! if not the first in scotland, then first in central scotland to have the spandex gerber 4b with Apple digitising tablet & computer, way back then because we were the first. Spandex used us to demo the machine on their behalf if someone north of the border was interested in buying one.
Spandex were not the first, they were in competition with Grafityp back then… but think Spandex had the edge over them at the time. still all these years later and Les Gilbert is still the man behind the UK devision of grafityp, where i think spandex has changed faces many times over the years.
as i said gavin, the suppliers had to sell their products. if the sign makers couldn’t apply the vinyl they would have went bust, followed by the supplier.
what is being forgot here is, vinyl CAN be applied wet. nobody is saying it cannot be used as a method of application. but it IS the inferior way to apply vinyl. in this case of WET & Freezing Cold…. then i stick to my guns and say, forget it or learn how to apply vinyl better.quote Gavin MacMillan:Rob I agree with all your points but not your militancy – in my opinion, on occasion wet is better and quicker with no risk of failure. These times are few and far between but they exist.no disrespect mate, but again, it comes down to personal preference and ability. you have said it yourself. you have gained experience and wouldnt look back now you apply dry. but not for everything… so this indicates you are still not 100% confident in all applications. but given time you will be…
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Robert, rightly or wrongly wet application must have been accepted as a recognised method of applying vinyl at some stage.
You know how I started which was only about 10 years ago if not less and that was the only way I was shown, there is a signmaker I know locally who went to college and did signmaking, mostly traditional but with some vinyl work and that was all taught wet. That was maybe 15 years ago and they were applying everything wet until fairly recently because like Bob they thought that was how it was done.
It wasn’t until I joined the forum and started to get to know other signmakers that I realised that dry application was even an option.
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Again, agree with all your points Rob. Though the few occasions I do things wet is when it’s faster, not because it’s the only way I can do it.
Sometimes that situation must arise when you give give up speed for fitting dry? when wet wouldn’t be an automatic failure? Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you on fitting method but plenty people get by without fitting dry.
If you were the first to have the gerber then surely you applied wet back then? As far as I can tell it was the only way suggested by maufactureres, whatever there motives and who would make up there own way to do things and waste lots of expensive cast vinyl?
Great machine though, we nearly got our hands on one a couple of years ago, was the first machine I used when I started and we nearly got the very same machine.
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Gavin, I bought a 4B from Spandex in that era, it was 1986, the 4d wasn’t their first computer, not sure what was, the first one of theirs I ever used was a grafix 4. That used to space/kern like a typewriter, and as you only had a LED screen adjusting from memory on specific letter combinations was nigh on impossible. When the 4b with auto kern came out, I bought one straight off, they said I was the youngest person in the country to own one. It didn’t take me to long before I had two of them though. They need very little attention paying to the kerning, infact they are better than pretty much anything available now.
I can’t honestly remember too much about the opposition to Spandex’s 4B around that time, there was a Roland, but that wasn’t all that special, friction feed didn’t seem to have been mastered.
With regard to application, I don’t wet apply everything, I usually dry apply to foamex, and anything handpainted, small delicate stuff, and small stuff to vans etc in colder weather. I will always wet apply large lettering to acrylic, vans etc.
I have wet applied for so long, my wet application is is surprisingly fast, I also never need to replace anything due to getting bubbles in it or having stretched it or the like. I have no real interest in changing my ways, I only do this because I enjoy it, not for the money, although it’s always nice.
I have no urge to try and encourage anyone to follow my ideas, I’m purely saying they have consistently worked since 1986.
So much of the work seem now is not level, full of creases, rips and bubbles. The fact I don’t have any of these issues with my stuff made me assume I was right.
I joined this forum to get in-put on a new cutter, from 1986 till a few months ago I’d had no outside contact with the sign trade other than helping a colleague asset strip a large sign company that was going to the wall. Unkind thing to do, but there was more money in crashing it than trying to build up and sell it. Thousands upon thousands of pounds worth of equipment, a lot of it I had to websearch to know exactly what it was. Ironically my original trade, yet one of the blindest things I’ve ever done.
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quote :I am sure we were the first! if not the first in scotland, then first in central scotland to have the spandex gerber 4bor the first in our street 😉 😀
back in 1985 it was wet wet wet except for small stuff it was not till about 5 years ago i went dry.
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I think we are veering OFF the point here… It is NOT about wet applications that i am knocking. it is about wet application in severe cold weather.
Gavin… fitting dry is so much faster than fitting wet mate. do you mean you fit wet to speed you up? 😕
When i started out i fitted wet. but i hated it, it was messy and very slow. i quickly moved onto dry application of letters, then panels. i have an old polaroid picture of a transit van i part wrapped in mactac 9800, will see if i can still find it. this was many years before wrapping even came about. i would imagine it failed further down the line, but didnt stop me experimenting. i did give the customer a heads up on what i was doing, they told me to proceed whilst stood behind me watching. i was pleased with the finish too…
anyway. my point is, you are only as good as the person who teaches you. back then there was no such thing as the Internet. no such thing as wrapping, no training etc etc you were very much on your own. so i was always trying to push the boundaries which could only be done thru trial and error.none of our staff have ever been shown wet application. so none of them fall into the hold it has on folk.
i have always said that if you really need aided by wet application, then you should use something like rapid tac which has stimulants in it to excelerate the adhesion. still no use for recesses, wrapping etc though.
martin wet apps been around from the day dot. im not denying that. im just saying that its not a "warrantied" method of application. it came about because of what i said earlier… people struggling to fit dry. the suppliers had to come up with a way to help application or they would not sell as much vinyl… so here the wet app was born and many many turned their hand to it.
heres a different twist on it…
"Easy Apply, Bubble Free types of vinyl… why hasn’t "the manufacturers" said… soap and water is fine, everyone does it, and its cheap… leave things as they are!"
why spend hundreds of thousands on developing and marketing an air escape adhesive system?
its because they need to sell the products to the masses. not just the skilled wrapper. they want everyone and their granny using their vinyl because it performs as it should and its easy to fit. newbie to the trade or old hat….
The trouble is, even the dry applied easy-apply type vinyls failed too and no longer suitable or warranted for recessed areas for applications such as vehicle wrapping.anyway… im going on and on here… :lol1: take what you want from what i have said. im not out to prove anyone wrong or appear rude… im simply giving advice as "i see it". i will always advise on dry app until someone can prove to me there is a better way. just my opinion of course…
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Rob
I believe Avery warrant their "supreme" easy apply, as I am sure Mat will confirm.
That is I think, used on the Yodel wraps, done on sprinters.
so things are moving on, 3m I have heard, are working on air release for their ij380,
So not applied wet, but soon there will be no option to do it wet, as any Tom Dick or Harry will be able to use easy apply, with minimum training, like you say.Peter
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quote Gavin MacMillan:on occasion wet is better and quicker with no risk of failure. These times are few and far between but they exist.quote Gavin MacMillan:Though the few occasions I do things wet is when it’s faster
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Robert, I’m not doubting you for one minute. Obviously there’s a lot I don’t know and I can fully understand the reasoning behind suppliers actions and the reasoning behind me being taught that way but what I did find surprising was that a college was teaching this as the only method of applying vinyl.
I would have thought that a college would be teaching people the way the manufacturers warranted a material not what may be the easiest way to start learning. Mind you I don’t think they do the course anymore and maybe that’s the reason why :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:
Like Gavin I now apply most things dry but do use a wet application from time to time if I feel I need to but that will be down to my level of experience and the amount of work I actually do as you have already mentioned.
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quote Martin:I would have thought that a college would be teaching people the way the manufacturers warranted a material not what may be the easiest way to start learning. Mind you I don’t think they do the course anymore and maybe that’s the reason why
martin, ide like to think you are right mate. because thats how it should be. the person teaching should know what they are doing. the reality is, "they dont". i have taken on over a dozen folk from college. only one was ever any good.
i took 6 or 7 on at one time, after 2 weeks, they actually said to me they had learned more in the week than the 2 years doing the college course.
in fairness, the teachers at college and the like are retired sign makers… standing in a warm class drinking coffee. they have no reason to learn how to wrap and pass on what they learn. they will teach what they know and how they did it. and as i said earlier… you are only as good as your teacher. 🙄 :lol1: -
I was a little put out by the fact it seemed assumed I could be fitting lettering for 25yrs wrongly and it failing without having the sense to think "hang on, I must be doing something wrong". But am happy to move on from that.
If I need to fit vinyl into any sort of recess, if the surface has any imperfections, or the weather is very cold, I fit dry. I also fit dry on small and delicate stuff pretty much always. What I was saying initially is, you can fit vinyl when it’s cold! I can’t see that as being wrong, if you write a van outside in the temperature it is now, there is no reason to expect any problems. If some cheap or indeed purely other vinyls than 3M, Avery, Fasson or Ultramark will not tolerate this, then I have no experience to question that.
I still can’t see how anyone could get large lettering onto Perspex on a hot day, quicker, better and with no imperfections doing it dry than I can do it wet. I would be only too pleased to put a significant amount of cash on that statement.
As I’ve said before, I don’t work with anyone else to share opinions or techniques, but the work in my local are of say 20 miles, is generally pretty bubbled, you can even see bubbles in the "youtube" clips of people demonstrating dry application.
If I’m one of the only people on the planet who feels that air bubbles are an issue, why are companies spending thousands on air release vinyl. If it is so that it is totally idiot proof, which would in turn mean I would have to acknowledge I was an idiot, then we’re all in trouble. If the vinyl is made so it can’t bubble even if it’s applied by Mr Clumsey, and a decent cutter is far less than I paid for my mountain bike. The trade is going for yet another downturn.
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Bob, I don’t believe for one minute your the only person who is worried about bubble free application. Any signmaker who takes a pride in his work will want every job they do to be 100% in every aspect. Unfortunately in the world we live in today I think there are far to many people who will be happy to do a job that wouldn’t reach others standards. Not just in the sign industry but across the board.
I do pretty much everything dry and don’t have problems with bubbles but that is because I have spent time and effort learning the right techniques to do this. I don’t believe that intelligence comes into the equation for something like this as it’s often the case that intelligent people can’t use their hands in the same way, if you are one of those that are able to do both then you are very lucky indeed.
I do still sometimes fit wet because working on my own I sometimes find it easier especially with very large graphics but if I was more experienced then I am pretty sure I would be able to do some if not all of that work dry as well.
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I am more academic, than manual, but I am a signwriter, coachliner and I can gild, I also sprayed the couple of cars I posted as well as numerous salvage repairs. I’ve also done a mass of refits, fitting countless kitchens, bathrooms, fascias, windows etc, so I’m pretty hands on. Don’t touch electrics much though, but I’m an approved PAT tester.
In fairness I’m more at home with a white paper or an act than I am a hammer, but I still do the odd refurb and I still roll my sleeves up on my own properties. I do know a city economist that couldn’t put a flat pack together though, so I know what you’re saying.
However, I still can’t see fitting large letters on a sunny day onto perspex dry being that successful, but by the way you post and the manner you have Martin, I do completely accept you can do what you say.
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Bob, it’s not just the sign industry as I said before, someone I know has just had a kitchen fitted and I can’t believe how bad it is. Find it hard to believe that these people call themselves professionals and it wasn’t done by the local handyman.
As for the large letters on an acrylic panel on a sunny day well it would depend on how big they were lol. As I said I do fit some stuff wet and I might decide to do a job like that wet especially if I was fitting onsite and didn’t want to have to go back if I made a mistake but that would be down to my experience or lack of it rather than the actual job itself. If your technique is correct then the size shouldn’t make any difference really. Working on my own then the limitation may be the length of my arms or my ability to hold the graphic away from the substrate prior to application.
I use to do quite a lot of vans for ANC, the graphics were all printed by a company down south somewhere and then sent to each depot as required. I always had to get someone to help me with them on the larger vans as I couldn’t hold the graphic and apply at the same time due to the size of them.
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Most appear to install dry and in the warm as I also do mainly.
But this video seems to show Rapid tac 2 can make a good bond in the cold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDcNpVugma8&feature=relatedanybody tried it?
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I notice he did say the surface was 40 degrees, so not freezing, quite a few vinyls can be applied at this temperature anyway, it is the bottom limit for some, including 3m. but some can be done colder.
I recon I could do that in one piece, dry, in half the time.
even allowing for the commentary. and "humidity"
it still does not guarantee the vinyl will still be there in 12 months time.
If you prefer to do it wet, then fine.the demo was using 3m, but the question then must be, does 3m warrant their vinyl if applied using rapid tac2? or if not, will rapid tac pay for a replacement if it does fail?
If the vinyl specs state a minimum temp for application, then that is what you need to take notice of, why you would need to apply wet for that sort of job I have no idea, other than to market rapid tac, to people who don’t have the ability to to it dry anyway.
Peter
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Peter, sorry to be a spoil sport but he said at the start it was about 33 degrees which ok is above freezing, then toward the end he said it was 30 degrees, but like you say it could probably done quicker dry.
I’ve never tried rapid tac so can’t really comment on it, but as you say it still comes down to applying vinyl below the specified minimum by the manufacturer.
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Stuart, I apply like that pretty much all the time, even at 0.5 degrees above freezing it’ll work. If you have high humidity and can’t guarantee getting the panel completely dry it’s perfect.
What he was actually meaning is, if the humidity is really bad, you’ve got masses on condensation, it’s raining or indeed snowing you can carry on working. I try and avoid it, but you can write a van in the rain with no problems. Apart from being sub zero, or blowing an absolute gale, I’ve never missed an outside job through weather conditions. I’ve also never had lettering fail or had any complaints. I do signwork more as enjoyment than to earn a living, if it gave me any hassle whatsoever I wouldn’t bother doing it at all.
I have to admit he was very slow, but he was putting more effort into the explanations than the job. I would take less than half that time. This is why I’ve no intention of swapping to dry application. The vans I write like this always look 100% at the end of their 4yr leases, some of the shops i’ve done like it are fine after 10yrs.
As has been said, everyone’s intitled to work how they choose, but don’t knock this application medhod till you’ve mastered it. I’ve watch a mass of youtube clips done dry, and I still think my way is way faster.
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Been following this thread for a while now….
As a vehicle wrapper I never go wet. But that doesn’t mean I’ve never applied vinyl wet, I have!
I certainly wouldn’t now but wouldn’t condemn the method of wet applying.
If it works for Bob, carry on doing it! I fit different to my colleagues who are equally experienced. I do believe there is no right or wrong way to apply vinyl, just whats comfortable to the individual.
Matt
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Sorry Matty but I would have to disagree with you, there is definitely a right and wrong way to apply vinyl and if you don’t believe me then come and have a look round where I am.
Don’t know if it’s been done wet or dry but there is a lot of vinyl that has been applied the wrong way :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:
OK the guy was just showing how you could use rapid tac in cold weather so maybe not right to criticise but if anyone watched that and then tried to apply dry they would have all sorts of problems with bubbles.
As I have said before most of the problems people have with dry application come down to poor technique.
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Slightly off the point here, but there’s a lot of mention of recommended temps, wet application and warranty. Has anyone actually done a job, had the vinyl fail and the manufacturers hold their hands up, admit it was their fault, replace the wasted material and stand the cost of the applicators time and inconvenience?? My guess will be no. If they have it’s also more likely to be good will, or buying power that has influenced it.
I’ve only ever had one roll of faulty vinyl, it was 3M and the fault was obvious as soon as I cut the first letter (it had virtually no adhesive)
At the risk of knocking us all, signmaking is now such a hit and miss everyone have a go industry, there is unlikely to be any company stand any real responsibility.
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What I meant Martin is there isn’t a right or wrong way to fit vinyl ‘correctly’.
I’ve just finished a 10 week contract wrapping 400 transits including roofs with 20+ Avery trained and approved fitters.
We all had different techniques and different ways of fitting. All vans were approved and customer happy.
There are good fitters and bad but there is not a right or wrong way to fit vinyl.
If there was, I would be on the band wagon saying that wet applying is wrong and your c**p if you need to apply wet.
Matt
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I know exactly what you meant Matty but like they say you don’t spoil a good story with the truth :lol1: :lol1:
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Wow! And to think i started all this with a cold JCB roof! :lol1:
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quote Bob Clarkson:Has anyone actually done a job, had the vinyl fail and the manufacturers hold their hands up, admit it was their fault, replace the wasted material and stand the cost of the applicators time and inconvenience?? .Actually, yes, I have… on several occassions.
Its one of the main reasons I throw my support behind the better known brands, especially 3M
I had two 3M jobs fail in the same month. 3M initially suggested it was my fault, but when I outlined I’d done the jobs dry, using their recommended application methods, they sent a 3M chemist up from Sydney (1000klm’s away) to examine my claim.
After 7 days, they replaced all the material I had used on the job, plus gave me $1000 of extra material of my choice in leu of my labour to redo the job.
I had a failure with Avery last year, when I applied the material as instructed (chrome to acrylic) and it failed also. The avery distributor who told me what I needed to do to maintain the warranty back peddled very quickly. He asked if I’d downloaded the MDS from their website. I said no. He advised me that in the fine print on the MDS I would notice that Chrome on Acrylic is sometimes an issue, and offer no warranty if it fails.
I tried to argue that I went by what I was advised but they declined all my requests to get the product replace FOC. I used 3M to replace the signage, and it is still up with no problems whatsoever.
I no longer use avery if I can avoid it, out of principle
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quote Bob Clarkson:there’s a lot of mention of recommended temps, wet application and warranty. Has anyone actually done a job, had the vinyl fail and the manufacturers hold their hands up, admit it was their fault, replace the wasted material and stand the cost of the applicators time and inconvenience?? My guess will be no. If they have it’s also more likely to be good will, or buying power that has influenced it.
Bob, buying power or goodwill… we deal/buy from the supplier. not manufacturer. if we have a genuine issue with a product and on a large scale. the supplier will pass this to the manufacturer to investigate & compensate if need be. if its a few letters on a van and not worth the hassle. then yes, I’m sure the supplier will compensate by a roll of vinyl or whatever…. but still more than likely claim this back from the manufacturer. at the end of the day… the manufacturers priority is keeping their suppliers sweet and backing the products they sell on behalf of them.
of course everyone MUST follow manufacturers fitting procedure to obtain the proper finish to whatever you are using, whether that be gold leaf, evo-stick or sticky vinyl!
can you imagine me coming on here moaning that my gold leaf job wasn’t up to scratch and blamed the leaf. when i didnt actually allow the size to cure properly before applying the leaf and doing this all outside on a windy day. all you tradional sign writers would laugh and tell me i didnt know what i was doing and that its a time served art form, and that i should learn how to do it correct before slating or preaching. and quit rightly so…I’m with you on that Shane…
I cannot remember the "exact" ins and outs of this as it was a while back, but again, it was 3M that backed their warranty. The story goes along the lines of a 747 Aeroplane which had been fitted with 3M vinyls had failed. out comes 3M specialists to examine the problem. do their tests, ask the relevant questions on fitting procedure and more. the outcome was the "vinyl" had failed… 3M covered their warranty and then some. i hear the costs were in the region of £1million due to the time the plane had to be out of service, being stripped and re-branded. now theres a company standing behind their warranty.
again, memory on exact story is a little off…
Oracal wraps failed for a company which i think was in England. initially they flew Manfred (vehicle wrap specialist) out to see how the guys fitted and to watch how they applied. i think the main cause was they did not use laser tempreture gauges when curing the vinyl in the recessed areas. not only this but none of their heat guns gave off enough heat to cure properly, due to excessive use. elements burning out or whatever…
i dont remember the final outcome here… but my point is…
manufacturers "need to" cover their warranties… if an able body fits to their spec and their product fails, and they don’t… they wont be in business for long… just like i will replace and refit a sign if it falls down due to an error in how i fitted it initially. i think its called being professional. -
Totally correct Rob.
On a previous thread I said about the contract we were on for 400+ full wraps.
After a fair few material failures, Avery flew their guys out for a week to oversee all the fitters were following the correct fitting procedures.
We watched and learned from them and the failures become less and less.
Whatever experience we have, every day can be a school day.
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I tend to take manufacturers warranties with a pinch of salt.
Likewise – if a customer asks me for "guarantees" of how long his signs will last I tell him it depends on the conditions the signs experience – north or south facing, abrasive or non abrasive conditions, atmosphere etc.
Bottom line is a 5-7 year vinyl should last for that length of time without fading, assuming reasonable conditions. In some cases the vinyls will (and do) last much longer.
I also remind customers that any warranty is only as good as the company providing that warranty remains in business.
In other words guys – don’t commit to any sort of guarantee
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I have used Oracle 651 & 751 for about fifteen years. I have recently had a couple of issues. The 651 is a 4 – 5 year vinyl and I have had several occassions on vans where the yellow has fade after about 12 months. I reported this several times to Europoint and they informed the manufacturers but nothing has ever been resolved or replaced, in fact I have never heard a thing. I have never had a problem with any other colour in this range and use it all the time. Secondly I have had several cases of 751 metalic silver going pitted and tarnished after a year (this is a seven year cast material). One I had to replace and the other is on the wifes car. Samples have been collected by Robert Horne but again they have never come back to me.
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