[Jon Aston]

OK Bob.

Glad we’re square.

You didn’t really state whether or not you were satisfied with the qualification I provided, though — as (rightly) requested.

Satisfied?

[Jon Aston]

Bob:

Not my intent to offend…apologies to all if I have done so. Poor choice of words. Very pressed for time of late…haste makes waste and all that…and you’re right to call me on that, Bob. Not the first time in my life that I’ve tasted crow.(…YECH!).

Plenty of little things above got stuck in my craw…advising Cabbage(?) to switch ink systems without any consideration given to media profiles sticks in my mind. Strikes me as trading one problem for (potentially) many others.

I wasn’t privvy to the conversations that led to Cabbage’s buying decision…but it sounds to me that perhaps the sales rep in question didn’t fully qualify his client’s intentions/needs…maybe Cabbage wasn’t clear at the time eaither (it happens…happened with the first post in this thread). Personally, I wouldn’t sell Jetster (nor any of the other eco-solvent machines) for doing vehicle wraps.

Jetster’s primary strength as an entry level system is ease of use…in large part because Spandex include media profiles for an excellent range of treated, ImagePerfect media…for the existing ink set, using their Mistral RIP (ditto for ImageRIP users, BTW). Jetster’s percieved weakness (moderately higher printing costs) is negated by the minimal learning curve required to start printing for profit within hours of uncrating it…all with nowhere near the materials and time($$$) wastage (from Trial and error) that is so often the case with many other entry level inkjets. No need to jerry-rig a dryer or buy a third party dryer, either.

It isn’t at all unrealistic to project ROI in 6 months for Jetster. At which point Cabbage can look at expanding again…perhaps by investing in a Tomahawk, or an ARIZONA.

IMHO Cabbage(?) should persist with Spandex…go over his current contact’s head if necessary and get the answers he needs from them.

I hope that (in part) serves to clarify my comments above.

[Jon Aston]

The amount of (albeit well-meaning) mis-information above is staggering.

I would recommend contacting Spandex for clarification about what you should be using / doing for this application. They know more about the system than anyone else.

Personally, I don’t care for the AVERY SEM 1005 product. Avery didn’t get the print treatment right…stays tacky. I believe that Spandex recently introduced a new (conformable) cast film for Jetster in their ImagePerfect line.

If you want long-term durability, you would have to be nuts not to overlaminate inkjet prints for vehicle applications, in my opinion — regardless of what you might hear. Choose whatever conformable, pressure-sensitive vinyl overlaminate that Spandex recommend. I wouldn’t recommend using heat-activated overlaminates — However,you will find that running a bit of heat will help you get better results faster with pressure sensitives.

Hope that helps a bit…do talk to Spandex, though.

[Jon Aston]

Try SERICOL, in Kansas City…this sort of thing is right up their alley.

[Jon Aston]

Ooops….

Sorry folks. Kept getting an error when posting…figured the post wasn’t taking.

[Jon Aston]

Jetster is more than capable of delivering very fine looking hi res prints. You might want to have a look at the original artwork you are working with…file format, file resolution, size, etc…probably best to throw this question of the folks at Spandex.

[Jon Aston]

Jetster is more than capable of delivering very fine looking hi res prints. You might want to have a look at the original artwork you are working with…file format, file resolution, size, etc…probably best to throw this question of the folks at Spandex.

[Jon Aston]

Re ARIZONA prints…As he so often does, Rodney hit the nail on the head.

Re EDGE prints…there are PLENTY of happy end-users out there with panelled graphics that don’t fail as you’ve described and graphics that don’t fade.

In both cases above (whenever you are outsourcing, really), I would recommend becoming somewhat familiar with the technology and specifying the use of certain materials.

In the case of ARIZONA printing, had your supplier chosen to work with ImagePerfect brand media (only example I am familiar with), they (and you, and your client) would have benefitted from the great lengths and expense that the supplier (Spandex, in this case) has gone to in creating media profiles that ensure optimal colour reproduction.

In the case of EDGE prints for vehicle graphics, I would strongly recommend specifying Gerber/3M 220 series vinyl, printed using GerberColor cartridges and Gerber Abrasion Guard.

Yes, I am totally bias — but not soley on the basis of who owns ND GRAPHICS or whose products we carry. The materials outlined above have a lengthy, PROVEN track record…as do the majority of firms who use them.

[Jon Aston]

Mark:

I disagree with your suggestion that thermal transfer printing has “almost had its day”…let me explain.

We sell solvent inkjets, “eco-solvent” inkjets, and thermal transfer printers…so although I often appear biased toward thermal (Gerber EDGE, EDGE2 and MAXX2 in our case) I’m not. As I may have mentioned previously (too busy to check) all of the various digital printing technologies have their place. All have their advantages and disadvantages.

Until you understand the advantages of thermal transfer printing, I don’t think you should rule it out…especially as your first foray into the world of digital printing.

One of the greatest advantages of thermal transfer is that the printed product is ready-to-apply…without overlamination. If added abrasion resistance is necessary (ie vehicle graphics application), you can print abrasion guard. No laminator to purchase, no new lamination skills to master, no waste.

Secondly, Everyone is buying inkjets these days. How will you differentiate your products and services from the rest of them?

I would challenge anyone to demonstrate a wider range of marketable products that can be produced with off-the-shelf products than you get with the Gerber EDGE and EDGE READY materials. When you also consider the fact that you can print white, metallic and “medal” colours, transparent colours, etc, the unique range of attractive effects that can be acomplished gives you more lattitude for designing/producing highly effective graphics solutions for your customers…unmatched by inkjet.

The EDGE is a proven, highly reliable machine; inkjets are…”improving”.

I could go on, as you might well imagine such a verbose fellow can.

The point is…Plan ahead based on a series of investments, starting with the machine that is capable of delivering ROI as quickly as possible. “Entry level inkjets” — in my opinion — are not your best first step…and when you are ready to re-invest, they will have evolved into something beyond what you can purchase today. (BTW, you’ll still be making money with that EDGE ten years from now).

[Jon Aston]

If only guys like Bob, Rodney and myself were paid by the word!

This fixation with printing costs and selling based on price is a bit nutty…and bad for business.

As I alluded to above, I find that too many people focus too much of their limited resources (time, energy and money) into buying/producing for less so that they can sell for less.

Odds are (insurmountably so) that there will always be someone who is prepared to sell for less than you…it doesn’t really require any special skills, so anybody can do it.

Selling at discounted rates also inevitably results in having to do more work to make the same amount of gross profit (this is easily demonstrated in a spreadsheet). Can you imagine answering an ad in the careers section of the newspaper that reads “Work more for less!”? Doesn’t sound like a promising career to me.

IMHO the smart money is on the people who invest their time and energy in acquiring / honing their marketing, technical and sales skills — or those of their team. Understanding what the market (or on a “micro level”, your customer) needs, how to develop/produce a better solution, and how to sell it isn’t constrained by the law of limited returns.

For some, this approach leads to redefining their business…from “I run a sign company” to “I’m in marketing communications, specialising in outdoor advertising” (a whole other subject). Maybe food for thought for some, or a load of rubbish to others…but my 3rd and 4th cents on the subject.

[Jon Aston]

Gents:

The ARIZONA 180 printer in question is a six colour (CMYKcm) printer that employs something called ColorBlend technology.

Contrary to popular belief, the addition of light cyan and light magenta do NOT increase colour gamut. What they do (using ColorBlend) is facilitate smoother transitions from highlight areas of the image; facilitating greatly improved overall print quality. Choosing to print without them will only lead to reduced print quality.

Eliminating light cyan and light magenta from the print routine will NOT reduce printing costs — which I assume is Joserijo’s objective — because the ARIZONA 180 only ever prints cyan OR light cyan and magenta OR Light magenta at any given time.

Reduced print quality with no benefit…hence the question “Why on earth would you want to print in CMYK only?”

[Jon Aston]

We have been VERY successful with TransTec premask (a Spandex brand)…in just a few short years it has displaced a LARGE portion of what was our leading brand. Good, all-around product – very attractive pricing (in Canada, anyways….don’t know about in GB…but you might want to sample a roll and enquire about pricing).

[Jon Aston]

Why on earth would you want to print in CMYK only?

[Jon Aston]

SENSORED 👿

I don’t really mean that – it’s just a great British expression (from a Canadian perspective) that is sure to get attention.

The best advice is to start by thinking about what you are hoping to accomplish in the long-run, then plan beyond simply this equipment purchase.

Choose to invest in a system that has the greatest potential for speedy return on investment, with the intent of re-investing in the next piece of capital equipment that fits your plan. Ideally, this should be done on a cyclical basis: every 12-24 months if you want to maintain your ability to compete with your equipment before new technolgies make your existing equipment obsolete.

What system can offer the best opportunities for return on investment?The answer lies in other questions: What factors are likely to affect return on investment? What are the tangibles? What are the intangibles? These are all important questions to ask prospective suppliers as you conduct your research. I would also ask what the supplier’s most successful clients are doing right and ask for a list of references.

As you develop your plan and research your purchase, understand that no single technology today has all of the answers (nor is one ever likely to). People are enamoured with wide format inkjets today for many reasons, but to sum it up: the technology is sexy…and is being widely promoted based on relatively low print production costs per square foot and relatively high print speed — all for a “low, low price” of X. This is driving some disturbing trends in the market, IMHO.

For starters, everyone seems to be focussed on low output costs so that they can “compete” — investing good money (for many small sign shop owners quite a large amount of money) in order to sell signs for less money. Does this make good business sense when you stop to think about it?

From my perspective, a large part of the problem is that too many signshops are chasing the same business — more often than not trying to sell on a price-per-square foot basis, rather than on a value added basis — instead of focussing resources on developing the market for themselves. If you want to be successful in this rapidly changing market, I don’t believe that simply depending on a passive marketing strategy (yellow pages, referals, website) is going to prove effective. I would instead recommend micro-marketing / key account management.

Focus on maximising the business that you do with existing customers by offering them a wider selection of graphics solutions. Become familiar with their plans, goals and market communications objectives…or better yet, become involved in developing them. Become a partner in their success.

Anyone who knows me knows that I could drone on and on about this until my eyes roll back in my head and I fall over backwards, foaming at the mouth…but I won’t.

Suffice it to say that making a very good business decision when choosing to invest in one piece of equipment over another should start with a business plan…including a good marketing plan.

…and everyone was expecting me to (all too predictably) respond with “I strongly recommend that you consider the Gerber EDGE!”…Damn, I guess I just did.

Good luck!

[Jon Aston]

I would go with tangential…assuming you can afford the difference. Why limit the number of materials you can use if you can afford not to?

[Jon Aston]

This post might also be of some use…
https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=21692#21692

[Jon Aston]

Richard (and all):

You’re right to practice “due diligence”…and especially to try to speak with existing owners of the equipment in question. Your “Tiara” dealer ought to be able to direct you to some, if you don’t find any here. Their willingness to direct you to existing owners of their equipment should speak volumes.

I’m willing to bet that my friends at Spandex can direct you to satisfied Jetster owners.

Even then, it is always good to qualify the opinions you’ll be given by asking questions such as “How long have you had the system?”, “Beyond ink and media, what are the other costs of ownership?”, “How was the training and how good is tech support?”, and “What other digital printing equipment have you owned prior to this and how does this compare?”.

Beyond that, take the time to have the supplier in question thoroughly demonstrate the machine…your files, long prints of very large files, that sort of thing.

There is alot of “snake oil” being sold with wide-format digital printers these days…caveat emptor!

[Jon Aston]

Hi John.

If you’re looking for standard “metallic” film in colours like gold and silver, they are available from a variety of manufacturers in cast and calendared films. Beyond silver and gold, some manufacturers have a wider variety of colours, but they are difficult for distributors to inventory because demand is generally spotty.

You’re right to ask about shorther life spans. Even 3M’s cast metallics are only rated for 3-5 years outdorrs, depending on the application…see http://gspinc.com/support/fastfacts/ShowFF.asp?ff=5574

If you’re looking for something a little more dramatic, check out Gerber Stardust http://gspinc.com/products/materials/GerberStardust.html

[Jon Aston]

I agree with Gav!!

Anyone considering any new piece of kit should look at competitive systems in order to be able to ensure themselves that they’re making an informed decision….one that is right for their business.

In the grand scheme of things, what you pay “up front” for the equipment is less important than the profit that you can generate with it. Pay close attention to the factors that are likely to affect your return on investment — such as production costs vs. market pricing for finished product, reliability, cost of ownership, etc.

You generally don’t get what you don’t pay for.

[Jon Aston]

Do you want the blow to the head or the dagger up the… 🙂

[Jon Aston]

That’s the spirit Lorraine!

Like the Letterheads movement, there does seem to be strong desire to help one another out at UKSB…certainly in terms of sharing advice and experience. The buying group thing seems to be working for its participants. It strikes me that the combination of specialties and design/production capabilities of UKSB members as a whole is another resource that could be harnessed by members to a greater degree…or is there more trade going on within the network than meets the eye?

[Jon Aston]

😆

Now that WOULD be a “neat little prize”…but my budget for “promotions” is a bit to small for that!

…I’m about to order some “neat little” promotional items for use in a trade shows, open houses and the like. When we receive our orders, I’ll send a “care package” to the address you provided.

[Jon Aston]

Precisely Phil!

I honestly don’t mean to be annoying about it…and I found that I’ve been saying it too much in response to alot of recent posts.

Please e-mail me your delivery address and I’ll forward your prize.

(…and don’t worry, I’m not planning to add you to our mailing list!)

Any takers for prize number two?

[Jon Aston]

Two words come to mind…

I’ll send a neat little gift to the first uksignboards member who guesses them and another to the first [insert the two words here] owner who offers to supply Ian with fridge magnets produced on a [insert the two words here] at a decent wholesale price.

[Jon Aston]

Hail Norman.

Fogive the question…do you mean “BJ W9000”?

What sorts of applications did you have in mind?

This is a nice printer for indoor applications, but I wouldn’t recommend it for outdoor signage. If you’re looking for a machine that offers outdoor durable printing and really fantastic “indoor” (ie. close in viewing) print quality, I would suggest getting a demo on the Spandex Jetster.

[Jon Aston]

This sounds like a strange activity…Is “bunting” a verb?

[Jon Aston]

Simon:

‘Nuff said indeed!

Do your estate agents “over there” love to have their faces all over everything? (especially their lawn signs)? Ours do.

I recently heard of a company here who sells “for sale by owner” packages (saves the cost of commission) who is having photos of the best features of the home put on her signs…and thought this was a fresh (if not brilliant) idea.

If you (or anyone else reading this) deal with alot of estate agents, you might try pitching it to the more progressive of them. Of course they will need a bigger more expensive sign to have the desired impact…

[Jon Aston]

Hi Mark.

The amount of time (time = money) that you spend mixing a colour, the time it takes to spray and the paint you probably store as waste probably costs a good deal more than having the colour printed on the EDGE…and I’ll bet a one of the “clan” here would be willing to give you a very decent price.

Anyone?

[Jon Aston]

Cheers Simon.

Muddy green? What does he sell…goose poop?! 😆

As long as he’s willing to pay a fair price to get the colour he wants, why not?

[Jon Aston]

Simon:

Did you manage to get any response to this?

If not, this post might be of help…https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=21523#21523

[Jon Aston]

This recent post might be of some use to you: https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=21523#21523

[Jon Aston]

Unless you need to buy large quantities of these products, digital printing might be a good alternative to consider.

I’m actually surprised that none of the Gerber EDGE owners in the wings have popped into this discussion to offer their services…so this is on their behalf.

One of the unique features of their equipment is the ability to print well over 3000 different SPOT COLOURS, using Gerber’s Spectratone system. There is a Spectratone guide available to EDGE owners to help you specify your colours.

In addition to amazing colour matching abilities EDGE owners can also offer you thousands of catchy special effects.

[Jon Aston]

A few quick additional comments:

Traps and bleeds and choke/spread are tough to wrap your head around without qualified training — which is an investment. By taking the training, you shorten your learning curve, thereby giving yourself a better chance at faster return on investment.

Without traps and bleeds and choke/spread, registration isn’t outstanding (which is why these tools exist) but it is consistent. Proper use of the software yields very good results (ie. registration problems go away)…particularly so if you use Gerber EDGE READY materials (punched with gerber’s punch pattern, not “edge-stripped”).

You will also find that using EDGE READY materials in combination with GerberColor foils provides for consistently better print quality…and therefore less waste and more satisfied customers.

Gerber’s LT series foils and heat transfer paper work great (use a heat transfer press for best results). The print will fade noticibly after the first wash, but then has great permanency. I have a ratty old T-shirt that I only where around the house that has an EDGE transfer on it from about 10 years ago…and the image still looks great! Expensive? Compared to what? It is a great way to produce highly customized shirts and stuff in small numbers, very competitively.

One last comment (echoing another, above): Service Contracts are cheap insurance!

I know that this sounds like one great Gerber commercial (so Rob – if you delete, I will totally understand…) BUT since the decision to purchase an EDGE2 appears to be made, I think it worthwhile for you to consider how you can begin to get the most out of your investment.

[Jon Aston]

My 2 pence worth:

Most of the people working for big multi-nationals are decent, honest, hard-working folk like the rest of us…and none of us are perfect. People make mistakes and — occassionally — you do get the odd bad apple. Life is like that.

I don’t dispute that there is strength in numbers, but if there is a good business lesson to be learned from Kevin’s recent experience of a “rep” making a commitment that he wasn’t in a position to keep (and subsequently “vacating” his position with the company) it is: Get it in writing!

Putting it in writing is equally important! When I was in Sales, I found that customers occassionally heard what they wanted to hear and — as a result — always made a point of following up important conversations in writing in order to avoid any confusion. I quite often follow-up discussions with our vendors in with a “here’s what we discussed” note for the same reasons, today.

[Jon Aston]

Thanks “WP” but I can’t really take any of the credit.

By the time I mentioned Kevin’s situation to a colleague, Spandex was already in the process of sorting it out…

[Jon Aston]

Kevin:

Thanks for posting the update! I’m glad to see that Spandex sorted you out.

Jon

[Jon Aston]

Becky:

I mentioned this post (and the other on 4EDGEtalk.com) to a colleague of mine at Spandex a few days ago. He was aware of your situation and believed that a solution was in progress.

Has the situation been resolved to your satisfaction?

[Jon Aston]

Nice job, Henry!!

But I will have to disagree with you…replacing graphics every year or so (assuming that you ARE charging for your time) doesn’t do your customer any favours.

Robert:

The 3M Rep who was involved with this project is on holiday ’til next week…so I won’t be able to offer any answers to your questions for a wee while.

[Jon Aston]

We also charge a premium for short lengths…to cover cost of labour and inventory “shrinkage”.

I’m curious to know the Spandex UK price per metre at 10m and 50m, if anyone knows.

[Jon Aston]

I wasn’t at all involved with the project, Robert…just aware of it…so I’m afraid I cannot answer your questions about why ford chose to go the way that they did.

I’ll drop a colleague of mine at 3M a note to see if he can shed any light on the subject…

[Jon Aston]

Rob:

My pricing on the stuff will be more-or-less irrelevant to you…different market, different factors affecting market pricing in different ways (ie. freight to Toronto from Conneticut vs freight to Bristol).

Give my colleagues at Spandex a call to enquire. The price of this material is likely going to floor you…but for the right application / right end-user it is a valuable solution. Once someone like Ford decides that the material fits with their concept, price becomes somewhat less relevant.

Here’s a bit more on the Ford of Canada signage…the picture in my mind’s eye and the reality are somewhat different. Blame Bombay Sapphire (great stuff — do you have it over there?).

http://www.3m.com/intl/ca/english/centres/graphicarts/ford.html

[Jon Aston]

Robert:

Both adhesion and chrome effect of the Gerber/3M 210 Deluxe Silver last 5 years outdoors (210 Gold lasts 3 years). The product is suitable for flat and flat-with-rivets applications. Durability and the wide range of suitable applications is due to its vinyl construction — as opposed to the mirrorized polyester most people are familiar with.

Here’s a bit of product data for anyone interested:
http://gspinc.com/support/fastfacts/ShowFF.asp?ff=5542

I don’t know if Ford goes for the same “look” in the UK as here…but several years ago, the “pylon” signage at all Ford dealerships was updated. Picture a tall pole, with the word “Ford” in chrome, in a chrome-bordered blue oval…very sharp looking representation of the Ford “badge”…all done with 3M’s version of 210 Deluxe Silver (which Ford specified for the job).

Maybe there’s an opportunity for someone such as yourself to “point” to Ford’s satisfaction with their signage in Canada…and propose converting all of their signage in the UK…you never know!

[Jon Aston]

You might want to enquire about Gerber 210 Deluxe Silver, from Spandex (also avail in gold, BTW).

5 year outdoor durability, EDGE Ready…you will pay quite a bit more for the product than you would less durable films, however.

[Jon Aston]

Hilary:

Rodney could obviously teach me a thing or two about routers. He is absolutely right about the vast range of profitable “industrial” applications beyond signage. It is adviseable to consider these posibilities but don’t let them become your primary focus…the decision to purchase should be made based on your core business.

If I may suggest, consider using his list as discussion points with the various distributors / manufacturers / agents you will be talking with while you try to make your decision. You probably don’t need to have it all at once. Do pose “what if” questions…like “what if we want to add a tool changer later”. Get the answers to your key what if’s written into your sales agreement.

Rodney is also dead right about training and support…your supplier of choice needs to help you speed return on investment by shortening the learning curve.

[Jon Aston]

We sell both AXYZ and Gerber (don’t rule them out!) routers here in Canada. I’m not familiar with the other products you mentioned…routers are a bit of a weak spot in my personal knowledge base.

AXYZ routers offer great value for money for their price range (here, at least) and can be built to spec with custom tooling…everything from drills to plasma cutters. Gerber routers offer superior engineering, supreme accuracy and throughput…but with the exception of a few simple options (ie. high speed spindle, vacuum table, etc), they come “as is”.

Based on my experience, very few of the customers who purchase the AXYZ Millenium or Gerber Dimension series routers don’t outgrow them quickly…and wish they had invested in a larger table from the start. If your budget or space won’t allow you to consider a larger model, be sure to discuss an upgrade path with the router distributors you are meeting with to discuss your needs.

If production throughput seems like an important consideration to you, think hard about vacuum tables as well. Faster set-up and change over in a busy shop can make a world of difference. If you plan to do alot of bit changes, you might want to consider an automated tool changer.

From a 3D software standpoint, Artcam has been a pretty dominant player (and innovator). The software is good, but pretty expensive. As an alternative, you might want to look at Gerber’s AutoCarve 3D…not a true 3D software but a pretty clever approach to simulating 3D.

[Jon Aston]

😆

You’ll be ‘OK’.

Just repeat after me…I am Elmer Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion und a yacht.

[Jon Aston]

Brian and I were getting off topic, no doubt about that…but I still find this turn of events odd. Anyway, no harm done.

[Jon Aston]

I think you’re your own worst critic (I like them both…especially the first one).

[Jon Aston]

Martin:

In my experience, selling domed decals doesn’t really require alot of marketing savvy. Buy an inexpensive resing doming kit and show it to every decal customer. You’ll sell more than enough in a month to recoup your investment.

[Jon Aston]

Ian:

Good comments and observatons above.

The EDGE2 prints at up to three times the speed of the EDGE (depends on which EDGE Ready material / which colour(s) you are printing), and does a MUCH better job of printing small text and fine line graphics. If you’re planning on short-run label work etc, it is a superior choice. If you can create enough demand, it will also allow for faster return on investment.

Good luck!

[Jon Aston]

Chalkie:

We do sell the EDGE…in CANADA.

I don’t have anything to gain from Jom choosing an EDGE over another system. I’m simply encouraging him (and anyone else facing similar decisions) to consider all the options…and I think my post is pretty clear as to where my bias is.

I, for one, wish that user profiles on this site were open to viewing by everyone. If that were the case, anyone who had any concerns about the man behind the post could quite easily discover who I am and what I am all about.

[Jon Aston]

Unbiased opinion? (Does such a thing exist?)

50,000 decals is not a job suited for digital printing.

For short runs of decals, don’t rule out the Gerber EDGE…far more versatile and cost effective than any Roland thermal printer.

Sorry…I know that reads as rather “stand-offish”…just the cost of brevity.

[Jon Aston]

Gents:

Signgold and Sticky Stuff doesn’t have to mean the end of the craft of sign making in your business.

With all due respect, if you’re capable of painting & guilding AND cutting vinyl, why not offer your customers both options, priced accordingly? If you REALLY LOVE guilding, your enthusiasm for it might just be contagious. If you can excite someone about the real deal, you can sell it to them (and for top dollar).

To be perfectly honest, I never really thought much of anything about guilding until a customer of ours (Pat Welter in Unity, Saskatchewan…a real master craftsman) tried to teach me how to guild glass. The process is almost magical…fascinating to watch. If your customers could actually see you doing it (at an open house, for example…do you ever hold open houses?) they might just line up for it, cheque book in hand.

[Jon Aston]

I don’t know whether or not this technology has made it across the pond yet, but if it has/when it does…try 3M 180C ContralTac vinyl (or Gerber 250C), which features 3M Comply Performance Technology.

Even a complete “hack” (like myself) can lay printed and/or cut vinyl graphics down fast and totally bubble free using this stuff…even over corrugations and rivets.

Truly remarkable!!

[Jon Aston]

Signgold is 22K Gold (plus clear Tedlar film and permanent adhesive), so it ought to look pretty close to “the real thing”…which should also explain the price.

IMHO, the “trick” is to play the SignGold card with the right type of customer…someone who is looking to you for something unique…someone who will take as much pride in their new sign as you do in designing/manufacturing/installing it for them…someone who would like to be able to “brag” a bit about their sign having real gold in it…and (of course) someone willing to pay a little extra.

SignGold is not a replacement for guilding, but not everyone has the time and/or the skill-set…so it is a nice alternative — and a means for increasing the elegance of and perceived value of a sign.

In most cases, you only ever really need to use SignGold as an accent, so the price per yard is also a little less relevant…especially (again) when you have a customer who is willing to pay more for something a little more unique.

[Jon Aston]

Gents:

I don’t believe I’ve ever suggested that the Gerber EDGE is the best solution for every job that everyone will land. The point is that the EDGE is (by far and away) the best solution on the whole. No, it won’t print at 1200 DPI…nor will it make your coffee for you in the morning…but it is FAR more versatile, FAR more productive, FAR more reliable and FAR more cost effective than ColorCAMMs are day-in and day-out. This all adds up to make the Gerber EDGE a far better investment.

This is not hype, nor merely my opinion…ask ANYONE who has owned both machines.

(If you own a ColorCAMM and find my opinion annoying, I’m sorry…truly.)

If necessary, we can get into the whole DC3 vs the MAXX2 debate…but I don’t have time at the moment.

Suffice it to say that there are indeed pro’s and con’s with every machine. If you are planning an equipment purchase, find out what these are and develop an understanding of how they will affect return on investment (ROI). Choose the system that will give you the best opportunities for ROI and you will NEVER go wrong.

[Jon Aston]

Gents:

I don’t believe I’ve ever suggested that the Gerber EDGE is the best solution for every job that everyone will land. The point is that the EDGE is (by far and away) the best solution on the whole. No, it won’t print at 1200 DPI…nor will it make your coffee for you in the morning…but it is FAR more versatile, FAR more productive, FAR more reliable and FAR more cost effective than ColorCAMMs are day-in and day-out. This all adds up to make the Gerber EDGE a far better investment.

This is not hype, nor merely my opinion…ask ANYONE who has owned both machines.

(If you own a ColorCAMM and find my opinion annoying, I’m sorry…truly.)

If necessary, we can get into the whole DC3 vs the MAXX2 debate…but I don’t have time at the moment.

Suffice it to say that there are indeed pro’s and con’s with every machine. If you are planning an equipment purchase, find out what these are and develop an understanding of how they will affect return on investment (ROI). Choose the system that will give you the best opportunities for ROI and you will NEVER go wrong.

[Jon Aston]

Phill:

I never said you can’t make money with a ColorCamm…but how much more gross profit would you have made on those very same jobs using significantly lower cost materials; still selling at the same prices?

If you’re commanding 4-5 times materials costs, you are also pretty adept at Sales, I imagine. The Gerber EDGE would have given you the capacity to sell those very same, existing clients a wider variety of products. Call it “hype” if you like, but these are facts.

I happen to agree with you re wide format thermal transfer being an excellent alternative to inkjet.

If you don’t mind a bit of your own (excellent) advice: don’t rule out the Gerber MAXX2 before you fully understand it’s features and benefits. I’m not familiar with the Graphitype machine, but I can tell you that the DC3 has a number of limitations as compared to MAXX2.

[Jon Aston]

Phill:

This perception is that the lower price point speeds return on investment is common…but is (in all but VERY rare cases) totally inaccurate.

If ColorCAMM users would go to the trouble of analysing their numbers, the majority would find that by the time they’ve obtained ROI, they could have purchased a Gerber EDGE with the money they would have saved on materials, alone. 😮

Robert:

I’m fond of saying “You don’t get what you don’t pay for”…

The problems associated with ColorCamms are numerous and well documented and I think you’re letting Roland and their dealers off far too lightly by suggesting that this is “just the way things are with digital printing” or (as some defenders of Roland suggest) that this is somehow the user’s fault (for being too “dim”).

When you purchase a piece of “kit” (am I catching on, or what?!?!) training and support should be considered to be an integral part of the system purchase. They play a critically important roll in helping you obtain ROI faster.

…So too does all of the software/firmware/hardware/materials and compatibility related product development that a certain, other manufacturer’s “Matched Technology System”…by providing the operator with relatively trouble free operation and reliable, consistant output and performance. I can’t think of a better way that a manufacturer could facilitate faster return on investment.

My advice to anyone who cares to listen: don’t just buy a printer…invest in a system!

[Jon Aston]

Donnie:

“Eco-solvent” inkjet printers are an excellent choice for your first foray into wide-format digital sign printing. Be sure to check out the Gerber Jetster (“Spandex Jetster in Europe) as well.

[Jon Aston]

Donnie:

There is a “helluva lot” of snake-oil and fu-fu-dust being sold with wide format inkjets these days…which machines are you considering?

[Jon Aston]

Assuming that you can find a dependable, trustworthy printer who can produce consistent results on his equipment…outsourcing is risk free.

In my experience, companies who depend on outsourcing wide format aren’t particularly motivated to sell it. As soon as they invest, they are highly motivated — and many see very good growth in revenue.

If you outsource for an extended period of time, and adopt the technology too late, you don’t ever see anywhere near the same profit margins, either.

If you don’t have the stomach for taking risks, outsourcing is better than nothing…but the returns don’t stack up.

[Jon Aston]

As this is first and foremost a post concerning ROLAND thermal inkjets, I will not go on about a certain OTHER well-known manufacturer’s thermal transfer printer, out of respect for the rules of the site.

However, I think it fair (and within the rules) to suggest that you do your homework before deciding on either of the machines you’re considering.

As a pretty reliable rule of thumb: the lower the capital cost of the equipment, the higher the cost of operation. Materials for those ROLAND machines (and your printing costs per square foot) are considerably higher…which results in poor return on investment. Integrated cutters just add to the dillemna by slowing (already slower) throughput and job turn-around.

Where wide format inkjets are concerned, have a good look at the Gerber Jetster. You will find that it satisfies pretty much all of the criteria you listed. Prints are outdoor-durable for up to three years without lamination for most signage applictions…but overlamination is required for applications requiring abrasion resistance. Print quality is SUPERB and suitable for indoor, close-in viewing applications, in addition to outdoor.

Perhaps the best part: You can be up and printing for profit within just a few hours!

Good luck!

[Jon Aston]

Becky:

Gerber were demonstrating OMEGA 2.0 at their exhibit at the ISA Sign Expo in Las Vegas last week…and it looks fantastic! A large number of the improvements made are based on suggestions from OMEGA users, like yourself.

For more detailed information, download this: http://www.gspinc.com/products/software/pdf/2.0whatsnew.pdf

[Jon Aston]

The Gerber EDGE continues to prove to be an excellent investment and is well-worth your consideration, “outline”.

If you look at the EDGE as an investment, then I would suggest you consider maintaining the integrity of Gerber’s “Matched Technology System” (MTS) in order to facilitate optimal return on investment (ROI). This means buying a Gerber sprocket-fed plotter and using Gerber software to drive the two devices.

The “Signlab E6” thermal module has some admitedly impressive features and is worth your consideration — from the perspective that you are familiar with the platform and may quite understandibly want to minimize your learning curve. HOWEVER, Gerber OMEGA 2.0 definitely closes the gap that Cadlink created for themselves with E6 a short time ago and choosing Gerber software has the distinct advantage of making one vendor accountable for technical support. (No chance of “It’s not the software, it’s the hardware” frustration).

If you’re going to cut EDGE graphics on a friction fed machine (particularly an older model), be prepared to sacrifice print-to-cut accuracy (some brands will be worse than others, as well). Depending on the expectations of your clientele, this may or may not be an issue. It does mean that you will potentially leave your competitors who run both a Gerber EDGE and Gerber plotter with a competitive advantage to exploit to their benefit. Finding work arounds for using non-Gerber plotters might also prove annoying and expensive (if you value your time).

Gerber have fine-tuned everything from software to consumable materials to work together, as a system (MTS). If you “opt in” and stick with all-Gerber MTS components, you can count on your system delivering such Gerber hallmarks as walk-away operation and reliable, predictible performance for the product’s lifetime. The alternatives — however attractive — simply don’t (because they can’t) offer the same promise.

[Jon Aston]

Gents:

After reading the comments that followed, I re-read my “thesis” concerning exclusive distribution arrangements being good for the market…and can see how it might be misconstrued as being somewhat defensive. That wasn’t the intent, at all! I only weighed into this discussion in response to Bob G’s invitation to comment on the subject.

As my opening comments suggested, I am completely and utterly ignorant of the market in Great Britain and so I couldn’t comment on the particulars of the topic…and — based on your description of the situation, Robert — I agree with you.

Perhaps the newly exclusive distributor in question is paying attention and will hire some specialists. If they don’t, they probably won’t be able to maintain their exclusive in the long-run.

[Jon Aston]

I cannot comment on the pro’s/con’s of someone else’s exclusive distribution arrangements…particularly if I’m not at all familiar with their organization.

Given the right circumstances, I believe that exclusive distribution agreements are good for the market, in general.

I suspect that more than a few people out there will disagree with me…perhaps speculating that manufacturers who grant exclusives somehow grant license to distributors to overcharge.

Debunking the “Exclusive distributors are evil, greedy, monopolistic, capitalist pigs” mythology…

For starters – and quite categorically – our customers make far more gross profit on any product they purchase from us than we do. This would logically hold true for all distributors…not just those with exclusives.

Secondly – all things being equal – when several distributors offer the same product: price inevitably becomes THE deciding factor in most signshops’ buying decision-making process. Now, before you start rubbing your hands together at the prospects of benefiting from a price war…consider the fact that developing and managing the service and support infrastructure for providing the level of service that you need to be successful requires investment.

Exclusivity allows the distributor to invest their profits freely…into such things as: R&D, inventory and other areas of operations like inventory management and distribution systems, demonstrations and communications to keep you informed about the latest and greatest ways of growing your business…and all of the other infrastructure necessary to support you…without the risk that “me to, but for less” competitors will negate any opportunity for return on that investment.

Exclusive distributors are typically (and quite rightly) held to higher standards by customers and manufacturers alike. We are forced to invest smartly, in order to be able to offer more value…or no-one will buy from us and ultimately the manufacturer will be forced to seek alternative channels to market.

We also have to remain price-competitive or signshops won’t even give us the opportunity to begin to discuss the inherent value and benefits of buying the (in our case: premium) products from us.

I’m fortunate to have enjoyed a career with an organization which continues to benefit from many long-standing exclusive arrangements — with leading vendors world-wide. To suppose that we managed to be this successful at the expense of our clients (ie. by “overcharging” them) would be truly ridiculous.

At the end of the day, the market will always decide which exclusive distribution arrangements are of real value to the market, and which aren’t, as the case may be.

[Jon Aston]

No, no commissions for me. 🙁

We are a SPANDEX group company…but until very recently, I haven’t had much in the way of direct dealings with them (and therefore didn’t have much of an opinion, either).

That changed when four SPANDEXians came across the pond to teach us all that they have learned on the subject of wide format digital printing, though. Most impressive…even somewhat humbling.

If you are researching a wide-format digital printer purchase, talk to SPANDEX. Even if you decide to buy elsewhre, you will gain a much better understanding of what to look for — and why.

[Jon Aston]

Phill (and anyone else you can name) knows more about the workings of ‘XP’ than I do…I’m just passing along the information I have.

There’s no conspiracy at work here…up until Gerber released a FREE OMEGA UPDATE to 1.56 (from 1.54), Gerber wouldn’t even recommend OMEGA for use with ‘XP’.

[Jon Aston]

The cost of keeping your systems (Software, hardware…Gerber or otherwise) up-to-date must seem a bit overwhelming at times…but the need for it is inevitable.

If you don’t mind a bit of well meaning advice: budget for it…even if it means raising all of your prices incrementally (ie. 2%) and banking the extra profit from every invoice.

[Jon Aston]

If my friends at SPANDEX are anything like us, they probably have a fairly steady stream of used plotters (and other equipment) coming in on trade, getting refurbished and sold. Alternatively, they could probably do a nice deal for you on a new plotter, as well.

[Jon Aston]

NO!!!!

Don’t do it!!!

Graphix Advantage is too old and tired to battle the XP dragon. You will need Gerber OMEGA if you want to run on XP. Talk to my friends at SPANDEX about a deal on an upgrade (I think they have some sort of special running).

[Jon Aston]

Dicko (and any other EDGE users reading).

Try posting this question in 4EDGEtalk.com…plenty of your peers to ask!

[Jon Aston]

Can you get your hands on SEAL Brand products in the UK? If so, you should be able to obtain a pressure-sensitive overlaminate called SEAL WRITE.

[Jon Aston]

Just checking in to make sure that I didn’t get deleted!

I look in on the site fairly regularly, but will only typically submit a post when I feel that I have something relevant to add.

Thanks for letting me stick around, Robert (!)

[Jon Aston]

“The dog’s dangly bits” you say?!

Does that mean “good” or “bad”, exactly?

Oh – and do consider the implications of your response…

(Sorry, Becky, just having a bit of fun…could you tell that I was typing in my best English school teacher’s accent?) 🙂

[Jon Aston]

Tim:

“MYLAR” is a Dupont Trademark for their brand of polyester film. Offhand, I can’t remember the specific qualities or recommended applications for 3M 484 Laminating adhesive…

Gerber offer a number of polyester label stocks that might be suitable substitutions for the spec’d products…HOWEVER, I’m always a little wary of end-user specs that call for uncommon components. You would be best to ask them what the end-use for these polyester labels is. For example: What are the labels being applied to? What is the expected service life of the label? Are they planning on any additional processing (ie…laser printing)?

You get the idea…once you’re armed with the appropriate information you can confirm how suitable Gerber’s labels stocks are (or aren’t).

[Jon Aston]

An interesting dillemna, to be sure, Gray.

If I may suggest, try looking at this from a different perspective…If you are the only qualified installer in the area, you might look at these installation jobs as an opportunity to CHARGE THE MAXIMUM THE MARKET WILL BARE.

If your market is somewhat remote and expensive to access, the”offshore” sign companies don’t have many choices available to them. However, if you wan’t to sell signage on the big island, you might need at least one ally there to do your installations.

The added benefit of this strategy is that signs which are both manufactured and installed by you will be relatively innexpensive (by comparison to signage sourced “offshore”)…either way, you win.

Then, of course, I could be quite mad (<(