CNC routers & 3d software – advice please!

[Jon Aston]

We sell both AXYZ and Gerber (don’t rule them out!) routers here in Canada. I’m not familiar with the other products you mentioned…routers are a bit of a weak spot in my personal knowledge base.

AXYZ routers offer great value for money for their price range (here, at least) and can be built to spec with custom tooling…everything from drills to plasma cutters. Gerber routers offer superior engineering, supreme accuracy and throughput…but with the exception of a few simple options (ie. high speed spindle, vacuum table, etc), they come “as is”.

Based on my experience, very few of the customers who purchase the AXYZ Millenium or Gerber Dimension series routers don’t outgrow them quickly…and wish they had invested in a larger table from the start. If your budget or space won’t allow you to consider a larger model, be sure to discuss an upgrade path with the router distributors you are meeting with to discuss your needs.

If production throughput seems like an important consideration to you, think hard about vacuum tables as well. Faster set-up and change over in a busy shop can make a world of difference. If you plan to do alot of bit changes, you might want to consider an automated tool changer.

From a 3D software standpoint, Artcam has been a pretty dominant player (and innovator). The software is good, but pretty expensive. As an alternative, you might want to look at Gerber’s AutoCarve 3D…not a true 3D software but a pretty clever approach to simulating 3D.

[Robert Lambie]

we have had AN axyz millenium for a few years now.. brilliant machine!
we looked at loads for about a year and purchased the AXYZ one at the sugn uk 3 years ago.
like john has said we have grown out it now.. we have been wanting a 3m x 2m router now for some time. our problem at present is space!
vacuum bed is a must!
if you have a millenium then i dont think the oil mister is really necessary..
but thats upto you.
the software is very easy to learn also.

give stuart a call at axyz & ask him what demo machines he has on the go at the moment..
also let him know where you have been told this 😉

as for 3d machining.. artcam is popular but the easiest one i have looked at was type3.. AXYZ is also a supplier of this software.

[Rodney Gold]

I cannot tell you what machine to buy , but I CAN tell you what to look for in a machine
1) DC servo control x, y, x do NOT get a stepper based machine !!!!!!!!!!!
2) at LEAST 100mm Z clearance
3) At least a 3-8 hp high frequency spindle that has from 3mm to 13mm collets
4) Automatic tool changer (if you can afford it)
5) Rapid movement and feed speeds, look ahead functions etc
5) A controller that is VERY configurable
6) VACUUM – if you dont get a vacuum table , you are in for a lot of problems
7) Really HEAVY duty lead screws and the best precision bearings – do NOT buy belt or chain type systems
8) BIG table sizes , whatever you think you need , quadruple , you will soon be running machines 12 hrs a day and you want to load standard sheets , not cut to size sheets
9) Dust extraction systems and automated lubricant systems
10) An open architecture controller – NEVER buy a proprietory system that works of a proprietory software package
11) An experienced operator!!!!!!!!
12) As heavy duty and as rigid a table/gantry system as is possible
13) A configurable machine (like the ability to use a trailing knife , laser , etc etc)
14) A guaranteed upgrade path (like being able to convert a non auto tool changer to one)
15) the ability to recover from bit breakage , power outages etc etc ,

There are tons of other things you want and “need” but these are sort of the essentials.

doing 3d overhead routering is NOT a cheap option , vacuum alone on 2m x 2m table can run to 12 hp let alone the table , tools , software etc.

As to software , artcam is pretty good , we use various packages for various jobs , signlab and profilelab for “2d” stuff , artcam for small intricate stuff and mastercam for the heavy duty “industrial” stuff Autocad for precision stuff and other plugins and 3rd party stuff.
You machine will only be as good as your programs and some of these can run to the price of a small table

3d packages have VERY steep learning curves , no matter what a salesman tell you , give yourself at LEASt 3 months to get the tables running to break even levels.

I dont think that using a GBP30-50k macine to do 3d signage is a profitable undertaking , you have to job out the machine (like cut stainless steel letters , ally , supawood , brass , making woodwork , vacuum dies and so forth)

Be aware that 3d stuff can take huge amounts of time to run , especially if you are doing intricate stuff or want VERY smooth surfaces – a 20cm x 20cm x 5mm max depth 3d master with super smooth surfaces can take 30 hours to run!!!!!!
Do NOT buy what you percieve as the best bang for the buck on your budget , rather buy something smaller and sturdy than go for sheer size cheap.
You need serious spindle power to get clean cuts fast——- do NOT think wood only ,think metal !!!!!
BACKUP and SUPPORT – VITAL – rather buy a lesser machine with better support and training.

A knowledge of basic milling , tools , metalurgy , cutting technology and engineering is vital – these machines will NOT slice the bread , butter and chew it , output is ONLY as good as the operators knowledge!!!!!!!!!!
If you are not into this type of machinery , software and dont have the engineering knowledge , you are treading on very thin ice – do NOT beleive salemens promises!!!!!!!!!!! – you might end up not making a cent for months!!!!
Once you do get into it and master stuff , if you are creative you have a HUGE income earner – the applications are truly endless , chocolate moulds , moulds of all sorts , spin cast masters , electrodes , metal cutting , machining , signage (which I assure you , once up and running will take a major back seat to other more profitable stuff) , woodwork , dies …..and on and on.

These machines are also pretty powerful and thus dangerous , you need a dedicated room for these , do NOT think of putting them into the middle of the factory floor , dust , swarf , lubricants , chips and pieces that come loose fly around all over

good luck and be prepared for exciting challenges.

[Deleted User]

Firstly thanks for replying so quickly.
Jon, We will certainly look at Gerber products.
From what you and Rob say it may well be worth considering what might be on offer at AXYZ (Rob_ we spoke to Mark Sweeney, sales- is Stuart on the technical side? )
Rodney, you have given us alot to consider and working our way down the list No 11 is daunting! (we are a partnership- he works the chainsaw etc and I do the keyboard stuff so not much experience on the operator bit!. Learning curve looming! ).Sometime before Led Zep were famous the first time,I took an engineering degree so I will have to get the books down out of the loft!
I`m sure we will have alot more questions and its nice to know people are willing to help.
Cheers

[Robert Lambie]

yep mark sweeney is sales director i think.. nice guy and also knows his stuff.
im sure he will be very fair with you & give you a good deal. but remember unless you are going into routing in a big way.. you dont necessarily need all the toys, although good to have. 😉

stuart is the owner of AXYZ a great guy & very honest. he is also a signmaker “or was” so knows where you are coming from and my impression was sold you what you needed. rather than how much he could make from you.
being the owner i was also surprised when he was the one that drove to scotland to deliver ours! showed me the ropes and away we went..
the technical support and maintenance contract is worth alot itself. not that we have had andy real problems. but when i had a glitch with my software. they said email us the file and we will run your job and send it to you in the morning! that cant be bad? 😉

AXYZ has grown a fiar bit inthe last few years so it maybe the case that stuart doesnt deal with the sales as much. im not sure… 🙄

[Jon Aston]

Hilary:

Rodney could obviously teach me a thing or two about routers. He is absolutely right about the vast range of profitable “industrial” applications beyond signage. It is adviseable to consider these posibilities but don’t let them become your primary focus…the decision to purchase should be made based on your core business.

If I may suggest, consider using his list as discussion points with the various distributors / manufacturers / agents you will be talking with while you try to make your decision. You probably don’t need to have it all at once. Do pose “what if” questions…like “what if we want to add a tool changer later”. Get the answers to your key what if’s written into your sales agreement.

Rodney is also dead right about training and support…your supplier of choice needs to help you speed return on investment by shortening the learning curve.

[Rab]

I built our own flatbed router after realising what we’d have to pay to get an off the shelf one of the type we need, not that I’m suggesting that you take this route, just saying that it is possible and many others do this.
For software, we use our own plugin-script for 3DS MAX.
The main advantage to this approach is being able to modify the machine and software to the job in hand, ie. we’ve just cut some vinyl on the router as our Star Cutter was too small for the job.

Rab

[Robert Lambie]

just being nosy rab.. do you have a picture of your router mate.. and what size did you make it?
😀

[Rab]

Hi,

It’s got a work area of approx. 4′ x 2′ in XY and 6″ in Z while doing 3-axis work, but this is reduced quite a lot if doing 5-axis movements. I’m working on a design for an 8 x 4 table which will give the 4th/5th axis head more room to play. (Actually, I’m always on the look out for components, or a cheap old router for parts and I don’t suppose anyone has an ATC sitting in a corner gathering dust (?) )

Anyway, here’s some pictures, please ignore the cable mis-management 🙂

Regards,

Rab

[Texcat]

Personally its got to be AXYZ.

The service is second to none. We blew a special fuse on Monday. How do we know whats gone wrong. Phone AXYZ, described problem “its stopped working” is the best we had. 5 mins on the phone, new the problem, part sent in post next day, back up and running. Perfect.

It stopped 3/4 through a job on a 3m x 2m 19mm foamboard. Thought it was written off. No, it picked up on its last path and continued. Excellent.

We was going to by a system from Pacer. I am sorry but we has SH** service. We paid a deposit £1000. They gave us a delivery date and then said we hadnt ordered one. What was the £1000 for then. They still have our money and have said it was for Admin charges. They didnt like it last year at the sign show when my guys stood at their stand slagging them off but still refused a refund. “give us our money back and we will leave you alone” Didnt want to play so hopefully they lost business like we did with no router for 6 weeks.

AXYZ flew ours in from Canada and fitted in 10 days.

Well done AXYZ.

P.s Vac bed essential, auto tool changer good investment if you can afford it.

[Westcoast Sign Guy]

Wow this thread is old & i’m probably to late

But my two cents is http://www.shopbottools.com

A red hot little company over here in the US that is selling over 50 per month. Great product and great, very GREAT customer service. I have one.

Oh and Artcam Pro or Artcam Insignia for software

[Mark Lines]

Personally I’ve been engraving and routing for over twenty years and currently run a Sabre and Tornado in tandem with two laser engravers. We were unfortunate enough to own an Axyz machine but were lucky to sell it on as it gave us nothing but problems and a whole lot of expensive scrap.