[Paul Hodges]

We have been down this road with LED’s and done quite a few jobs using them.

It seems obvious to me, that if you want the absolute best effect for an illuminated sign you have to use neon, nothing touches it.

LED may have niche uses such as small scale work but ultimately, the only real reason to use them is because they are supposed to be a much cheaper alternative.

Planning issues sometimes favour LED, but otherwise i would always stick with neon.

[Paul Hodges]

i will try to post a photo of it.

Chris, your comment about customers not noticing etc, i do agree with also, i know exactly what you mean, although in this case, it is very noticeable because it’s happening in solid colour blocks.

Dave, it’s happened on all the media types i’ve used, not just vinyl.
I think Chris is right about the problem though, it does appear that the ink has not blended, the best way i can explain it is as if the ink was momentarily running out so it starts to just fade but then it is suddenly back to normal and it only happens in small amounts, no wider than about an inch.

It would make more sense if it was the media surface just not being as good as it should be all the way through the roll etc, it would account for the unpredictable nature of this problem.
If it is that then it’s pretty annoying because it’s pot luck as to when and where it happens, and as of yet, i haven’t been able to get any of my suppliers to acknowledge that this could be their material. I have been told by one supplier that their digital vinyl is flawless.

[Paul Hodges]

Chris, I agree, it does seem to be open to a lot of variables. One day, i can print on any given media with the correct profile and it’s perfect, another day, i can get this problem again. I have tried a few different vinyls and banner medias and it has happened i think, on all of them at one time or another.

I recently printed a 12′ long banner with a large green rectangle on it, and it was perfect all the way through until the last two inches where the stripy lines came in!

My main concern would be if the printer was making this happen, if it’s not and it’s just a known problem with inkjet systems generally, then i would assume everyone has this problem occassionally?

[Paul Hodges]

Dave, what do you think is causing this then?

[Paul Hodges]

quote Dave Rowland:

hmm.. think i might know but it is horizontal lines?

Can you photo or scan and attach to the file swapping forum or members gallery/babble forum?

Dave, if i remember correctly, the lines are always in the same direction as the print head travel.

so far, i’ve had it on white vinyl, banner media and art canvas, so different suppliers and different profiles etc, and it doesn’t seem to happen every time, just quite often. you could also describe it as a dirty mark running through the print.

I don’t think it will scan in well enough to really see it properly but i will try

[Paul Hodges]

quote wannousnancy:

Jill your asking for a demo for you / Dave .

the Beauty is that i totally work alone de best unlimited freedom .

You mean you never get people calling in on you when you work? (you may get a few now though) lol

[Paul Hodges]

quote Richard Urquhart:

hi guys
just to fill you in the women is a customer but we are not doing the work because the ads are going to buses and some one eles will do the printing

well we could say let them sort it but i wanted to ask for you help i think as she is a graphic designer see wanted to give the file at the best it could be

dont ask me why she would not know how to do this but i dont think she has got to grips with photoshop

im sure nancys help will work for this job

rich

That does sound a bit suspect! you would think she would be an expert in such software lol

[Paul Hodges]

probably spandex would be a first port of call, i would imagine looking on here or similar sites might be worthwhile also.

[Paul Hodges]

Cheers Rodney,

by my reckoning i should get at least 60 linear metres off my 1370 rolls then. That’s pretty much the way the figures are looking anyway.

[Paul Hodges]

quote Dave Rowland:

normally ask.. but most printers should be accepting the PDF format with Press quality settings or PDF/x-1 settings.

Good thing about PDF is that you can see your output in the PDF before passing it on, this way you can see any mistakes that might have cropped up or colour corrections.

If they don’t support PDF then I suspect I would dump that printer and move on to the next.

Dave, do you print from PDF’s yourself? can you set them up so they are as good to print from as full size tif files etc?

[Paul Hodges]

Matt,

I think you have to be a full member before you can swap PM’s, i didn’t know that either until recently

[Paul Hodges]

Matt, they are not the cheapest machines to buy, some good second hand deals around but i take your point about starting costs etc..

If you’re getting a lot of car sticker work have you considered out sourcing it?

Paul

[Paul Hodges]

I’m so glad i’ve still got my Gerber Edge… 😉

[Paul Hodges]

They normally say up to about five weeks…

[Paul Hodges]

lol, they’re not exactly known for their competitive pricing are they?!

[Paul Hodges]

quote Robert Lambie:

£3500???? not sure where your getting that… i could be wrong but im sure we just took extended warranty out and it was £1800 for our grenadier.

smells? eco or solvent both are whiffy… OK so solvent is more so but a small extracting fan does the job fine. I’ve had ours now well over a year. no problems…. eco or not, i think you will find you should have some sort of vetilation regardless.

i would never slant a Roland machine. they are great makes and i have had many over the years. the gren is converted one. however, i have had nothing but bother with after sales for my Roland’s since day dot. probably why its free! that was one of the reasons i switched to graphtec for our cutters and now b&p for printer.

Rob,

That’s the exact figure Spandex quoted me for the maintenance on the Elan, and to be fair, it didn’t vary much from a few other suppliers, a year on and that figure may well be £1800….well that’s still nearly two thousand pounds a year you have to pay out over the cost of the consumables!!

I really have to disagree with what you said there about the smell of the ink, we don’t vent out at all, we don’t need to, you can stand next to this machine and very rarely do you smell anything, it is that good, maybe that’s something particular to eco max….

I can’t really comment about Roland’s service because this is the first machine i’ve had from them, but there are plenty of other firms out there doing inkjet that people complain about, bad service and support etc..

[Paul Hodges]

you’re probably getting a better deal on the inks anyway i think, everything seems more expensive in the UK 🙁

[Paul Hodges]

quote Shane Drew:

I think we have to agree to disagree Paul.

I have had my machine a few years now, didn’t take up the warranty extension, and I don’t think I’ll need it frankly. 3000 quid is way out of my price range anyway. I think the ones here are in the $100’s not $1000’s.

The print heads have a life anyway, whether solvent or eco inks, so I’d expect to be up for new ones eventually.

The only thing that will be a problem with solvents is the pump. The piping is replaced for stronger material at the upgrade, and the pumps need replacing when they wear anyway. When I had my unit as an eco solvent printer, Roland still advise on regular servicing of the pumps because they are the thing most likely to fail.

Rolands marketing dept are in overdrive trying to convince everyone that the new max inks are the bees knees. And, don’t get me wrong, they are obviously good, but they are not as good as the real deal.

My research found that as far as the safety aspects, the max inks still have some pretty nasty incredients, so the safety argument does not really wash with me. I work beside my solvent printer and it does not worry me in the least.

You are right about the inks tho. I think you’ll find that most of the ink manufacturers are already researching alternatives to beat the new EU rules on chemicals by 2010(?) We see citrus based inks out already, and they are still better, from what I have been told, than the eco inks. My opposition has just converted his JV3’s over and he is getting stunning results.

Of course the best thing about converting a roland, is that you can go back to eco inks at any time.

Cheers

Shane, the maintenance contracts here are around £3000 – £3500 per year with the full solvent machines, Roland have told me they don’t generally offer a maintenance contract because there is no need. That extra cost actually put me off the full solvent machines quite a bit, but i was told by all the other suppliers that the cost of the contract was ‘easily absorbed’ by customers running the machines. Of course, they will change the heads for you in that contract but to buy them, they are in the region of £450 – £700 per head depending on the machine…

I think with the max inks they are on to a good thing, the only difference being they are slightly less abrasive resistant than full solvent, but even when I was getting trade work done with full solvent, i was still having it laminated, so there’s no discernable difference there.

If you’re working in close proximity to your machine you must be venting it out i assume? We don’t need to do that, there’s literally no odour, and i find that a really big plus, especially around an office environment.
Which machine have you got Shane, Is it a converted versacamm?

Paul

[Paul Hodges]

Martin,

If you go the inkjet route for stickers, then be sure to get a machine which prints white (check to opacity on that) or source white laminate (for which you need a laminator and a print/cut machine, or at least a separate cutter etc)

[Paul Hodges]

quote Shane Drew:

Mel, Roland were banking on the less smelly inks that eco sol produce. I’m not sure how Paul came to the conclusion he did, but my research didn’t come up with this conclusion at all. Paul may have access to info I didn’t tho.

Roland have not wanted to go down the full solvent path simply because it goes against their original plan. They have invested massive money into the ‘eco’ inks and people converting are a thorn in their side. I have experienced their ‘attitude’ here, but I think the aussie operation is fairly ignorant, or perhaps arrogant may be a better description.

I would not be suprised tho, if some time in the near future, they embrace an oem solvent supplier to capture a market they are obviously losing.

As far as the reliability of solvent over eco, I had more warranty complaints with my heads and pumps when it was running eco, than since I have moved over to solvent. That is not to say I have not had blockage problems with solvent either. I think the hot weather we have here over such a long period does create issues with the inks drying in the tubes if you don’t use the machine for a few days.

The secret to solvent is to keep up with your maintenance. If you are sloppy in that respect, it will bite you. 🙄

Shane, I was recently talking to some people at Roland about the various pro’s and con’s regarding eco and full solvent, so this info came up in that conversation. Apparently Roland (Japan) won’t go the full solvent route (at least not with the versacamm). Bearing in mind new health & safety rules and the change in what machines we will be allowed to run, the days of full solvent are probably numbered anyway, UV curable seems to be the next forward step etc.

When you see what the max inks can do, and you stand next to the machine with virtually no odour whatsoever, you can see the logic in this machine.

I think the full solvent machines are good if you can run them more or less all the time, but obviously the full solvent destroys the parts eventually, so although replacement parts are a breeze if you’re under warranty, what about if you’re not?

That’s another issue…warranty cover, annually around £3,000? plus the relative cost of each machine should be considered because they are different!

Just a few helpful points here for anyone considering a purchase 🙂

[Paul Hodges]

Rodney has some good points on the thermal vs inkjet argument, although one thing that always swings in favour of the edge for car stickers is that they are normally reverse printed, so they are easy to back with white foil. True, the inkjet will print better four colour images, but most labels we print are all solid colour, and to be fair, you can get a better solid spot colour on the edge than most inkjets.

A typical two colour sticker reverse printed on clear and backed white should cost you somewhere in the region of £3.15 per linear metre to print.

[Paul Hodges]

Gerber Edge is the way to go.

I’ve had one since ’95, and i have a versacamm also, but for labels or car stickers, you can’t really beat it.

[Paul Hodges]

quote cosign:

Thank You all for your input. The converted Soljet certainly seems to be very popular. I am also considering the Eco Sol Version but am concerned about the longevity of the prints and the ability to print onto uncoated media. It has certainly been thrashed out a lot here, however what are the results of late with the new Maxx Inks and the ability to print onto uncoated media.
Any news ?

Another thought occurred to me, Why does Roland not offer a modified machine ? They are obviously aware that many people are converting them to full solvent machines.

Regards

Mel

Hello Mel,

Roland don’t do a ‘full solvent’ machine because of the problems that the solvents cause, i.e. repairs breakdowns and general unreliability as well as maintenance issues, so they have stuck with an easy to use, reliable method and are obviously trying to close the gap in the difference of the ink technology instead.

[Paul Hodges]

Basically, all the machines that have had some kind of conversion have run in to problems because of the nature of the full solvent, i discovered this when i was researching inkjet for a full year before i bought one. when you start talking to people who have run the various machines, the same names tend to crop up, positively and negatively.

The whole issue about the Elan was a good point. I nearly bought that machine but it turned out to be a failure. Having said that, the print output from that machine was at times, outstanding, and for as many people as i know who returned the machine, i know one who really likes it and continues to use it, so like i said, you can get a different story from different people.

Inkjet media suppliers are a good source of reference, they can tell you a bit about reliability seeing as they deal with lots of different owners

[Paul Hodges]

Mel,

I wouldn’t personally buy a Grenadier, i know eveyone can have a different story relating to how good these machines are, but i know of a trade supplier that was using one and it wasn’t that successful, so that’s usually a good indication.

As has been mentioned, the machine is a re-badged Roland, but has been converted to run full solvent, so it’s a machine being asked to do something it wasn’t built to do, unlike the original machine or the Seiko etc.

I would consider one of the other printers in that price range if it were me.

[Paul Hodges]

I didn’t really get much of a curling problem Dave, more a case of the machine pushes the material forward as it prints, but the material doesn’t actually move forward, it just snags around the rollers, it doesn’t seem rigid enough to actually move forward through the printer. If you can imagine trying to feed a flimsy cotton sheet through your printer, this stuff reacts in the same way.

For a while, i overcame the problem by continuously pulling the material taught as it came through, but that eventually results in the polyester stretching and the image just comes out blurred where you’ve pulled it out of synch with the machine.

I intend to phone the suppliers today for an explanation.

[Paul Hodges]

Cheers John,

I have an account with grafityp so i could easily go that route. the two materials i am looking for are printable flag material and lightweight textile banner, as opposed to banner pvc which i already use.

[Paul Hodges]

Shane, those products all look good, they are nothing like what i have! i think i might have to check out the other UK suppliers, someone must have similar stuff to what you’re using.

[Paul Hodges]

Hmm, that’s interesting….

so far as i know, suppliers here don’t sell a carrier backed version, they do sell a mesh banner material which has a backing to catch the ink that goes through the perforations. i found that quite hard to get through the machine but it worked in the end.

So far, the only material i haven’t had major problems with is vinyl and art canvas, everything else seems to be problematic….

[Paul Hodges]

Shane,

Neither product has any backing at all, they are being sold as ‘polyester textile banner’ – as a lightweight alternative to standard pvc banner material, and ‘polyester flag material’ for printing flag designs, both products are very similar, may even be the same stuff actually.

They are basically really lightweight, thin materials but because they have no rigidity in them, getting them through the printer is a nightmare, there is no real weight to the material.

[Paul Hodges]

our ink levels didnt display properly from versaworks or the machine…in fact, the carts actually ran out whilst showing three quarters full on the machine. we have since had a firmware update which apparently fixes that.

[Paul Hodges]

Yes, I’m starting to get the picture with what you’re doing, I though there might be people out there doing these kind of modifications. what kind of results do you normally get?

[Paul Hodges]

John, we don’t have a take up roll yet on the actual printer, it’s more a case of handling the prints as they go through the laminator, ideally you need to feed them in flat and they need to come out flat the other side or they can crease when they fold up. are other people using flat benches with their laminators?

[Paul Hodges]

Alex,

our laminator is on a stand, at this point we’re not getting too bad results actually, we’ve cut the dust down by hanging the prints in a cleaner environment prior to laminating.

what is more of a problem now is just handling the printed sheets without bending or creasing them so i think ideally, a table or bench would be better to lay the prints on whilst feeding them into the laminator, and preferably out the other side or it gets difficult to keep a large printed sheet flat.

it’s all very well doing small prints, one at a time but if you want to nest jobs and be as economical as possible, then you have to print large sheets

[Paul Hodges]

Dave,

the silvering will disappear, you don’t really even notice it when the print is outside anyway, it’s just under close inspection you can see it.

cold or hot not sure, we have a cold laminator, we don’t suffer from creases at all, dust getting trapped under the laminate is our only concern with it.

Judging by what John just said about using heat and the vinyl stretching, i’ve heard that before about hot laminators, inkjet printing appears to be more suitable to cold laminating, generally speaking.

one thing i have noticed also, is that you need to ‘run in’ a roll of laminate to get it to start working well. the problem being, chopping and changing different types of laminate will be a pain in the ass because you will constantly be trying to run in each roll, therefore you won’t really want to change rolls very often!

[Paul Hodges]

3M 100 series vinyl is a thin cast vinyl, seven to ten year, if it was faulty due to age, you would know because the adhesive would probably have failed.

The problem you had with heating the vinyl up and stretching it is because the 100 series is not really designed to do this, it tends to become transparent when stretched even if it doesn’t break.

So yes, it is a cast material but it doesn’t have any real conformable properties other than being okay to use over rivets and such like.

[Paul Hodges]

quote Shane Drew:

quote Paul Hodges:

Hi Ste,

Did you laminate the print on your van?

Paul, ste states “this time we used orajet 8571 (i think) printed on our brilliant versacamm and over laminated with oracal 290f. brilliant to use and very very shiny. ” in his original post mate 😉

Thanks for pointing that out, I’ve seen the oracal products mentioned a few times here, probably more often than the manufacturers you might expect, i’ve never used the oracal materials myself so i’m curious now…

[Paul Hodges]

quote Shane Drew:

That is my biggest prob this time of year here as we have a lot of winds, and dust is my biggest issue.

I run a feather duster over the print as it goes thru the laminator, but still miss some every now an then.

One tip worth remembering is that if you are laminating the print over a substrate, spray a fine mist of metho over the substrate after you have cleaned it down, and it negates the static that attracts dust as you laminate. Just spray it and let it dry.

The process of lamination causes static so reducing that is an important step.

Thanks for that advice Shane, that’s just the kind of info i was hoping to find, there are obviously some tricks to the trade with getting good laminating results.

Goop just mentioned wet applying the laminate, i’ve heard of this before and have considered this myself. The only drawback i can see with that is that if you have to laminate then put it back through the machine to cut the print, you probably could do without getting the back of the vinyl wet?

[Paul Hodges]

Andy, sounds like you’ve got a better environment for your laminating then we have. Our printer and laminator are both in our studio which is basically a carpeted office. Unfortunately, the next room along is the workshop where the guys use the table saw and other cutting equipment.

We’re not really getting creasing now, it’s just that even when the print appears to be clean, by the time it comes out the other side of the laminator it has specks trapped in it here and there.

It’s annoying because although our in house printing is of a higher quality than what trade suppliers were giving us, our laminating finish is not as good as the trade suppliers, so i find it interesting to hear what everyone else’s laminating results are like.

[Paul Hodges]

quote Shane Drew:

quote Paul Hodges:

Hi,

Is anyone here actually using a cold laminator for inkjet prints?

Paul

Yes Paul, I use an ezy taper with all my cold laminates, although I only use Oracal 200, 215 and 290 series. All are cold laminates and require no heat.

The silvering if any, disappears when the print is fitted and out in the sun for a day.

Hi Shane,

Yes, we’ve noticed the silvering tends to disappear too, so now i’m mainly concerned about getting a good finish without dust particles getting trapped in there. Have you had that problem at all?

[Paul Hodges]

quote marshy:

Hi Paul, what i now do is use a 3mm foamex to feed the beginning of the laminate into the rollers as normal until it pops out the other end and then stop it. Without the backing paper you will now have the laminate touching the rollers, in effect stuck to the roller. At this point you can feed your print through. YOU MUST HAVE SOMEONE PULLING FROM THE OTHER END TO STOP THE PRINT WRAPPING AROUND THE ROLLER. taking away the backing paper does make it a lot flatter
I hope this helps

Andy

Cheers for that Andy, we’ll try the 3mm trick.
As for the machine being a cold laminator, we didn’t get a choice, it came as a package deal from Roland with the new Versacamm, i just assumed they would put a laminator in the deal that was good enough to do the job properly. The silvering i can live with because like Shane said in the other thread, it does tend to disappear, but the dust is what’s really ruining it for us at the moment.

I’m going to try the tack rags, although we did wipe down a print this morning just prior to feeding it into the laminator only to find stuff trapped on it yet again, so i think we have more of a static problem really with this.

Have you found any successful ways of cleaning prints down with anti static products at all?

Thanks for the help.

Paul

[Paul Hodges]

Hi,

Is anyone here actually using a cold laminator for inkjet prints?

Paul

[Paul Hodges]

quote marshy:

I don’t know if you have sorted your lamination problem yet but we had the same problem with Hexis, On our Mactac Laminator there is a backing paper which runs underneath the print to stop it sticking to the rollers, this was creasing first thus making the print crease, so we now don’t use the backing paper and its perfect everytime

Andy

Andy,

We are having the same problem with our new laminator, i think it’s a GMP excelam cold laminator (i think thats what it’s called) we got it with our new versacamm.
the only way i can see of eliminating that backing paper problem is to make sure your laminate is not as wide a roll as your printed media, but thats not always possible. how did you get around that?

also we’re not getting quite as good a finish as we would like, with dust particles getting trapped etc. do you have a procedure for cleaning your prints off succesfully before laminating etc?

Paul

[Paul Hodges]

Hi Ste,

Did you laminate the print on your van?