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Uniform Grenadier
Hi all
I am very interested in the Uniform Grenadier and would appreciate any
feed back – Negative or positive from people who use the print
& cut version of this machine on a daily basis. I also need an indication
of the UK price. I am particularly interested in the quality of print of this
machine in comparison to other printers like the Seiko 64 ( Now HP )Many thanks in advance
Mel
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39 Replies
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I run the Roland sc540 print and cut unit, having converted from eco sol to TechInk true solvent inks.
I think they are similar machines? Excellent quality, although I’m pleased I upgraded to the better inks.
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Hi Shane
Are you able to print small text and graphics clearly without graininess ?
Do you think that the quality is at least as good as when you were running Eco Sol Inks ? The reason that I am asking is that a lot of the larger true Solvent machines while very fast and relatively cheap to run seem to struggle with small text and the dot pattern is big.Kind Regards
Mel
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I have been using inkjets for the last 4 years,
from the terrible (jetster or jester!!) to grenadiers/resolves/jetsolvers etc etc, the best one for quality and speed is the seiko 64s, not the cheapest but the best… do not confuse this with the HP9000 that is a downsize version of the seiko 64s… the uniforms are roland machines converted…. -
Hello from an Mimaki JV3 user, you find lots of talk on these machines and particularly the Cadet version of the Uniform products.
We didn’t opt for the print & cut solution as prefer to have cutting done on a seperate machine in a different area of the building, we prefer to keep the printer in a warm room and tidy etc.The sister Mimaki CGFX cutter works well as an companion cutter.
The technology in the Grenadier/JV3/SC540/Cadet is the same, it uses the Epson DX3 print head, so all quality will be equal. The differences will be the handling, take ups, ink quality, firmware/control panel, heaters, RIP halftones, holding the material, cut or no cut. etc.
If we printed small text onto vinyl with Shiraz RIP with the headheight switch set to low, we could easily do 1-2mm high text printing, I was amazed when I saw it. Graininess at 1-2mm is never an issue as it is lines however if you don’t look after your printer and keep it clean then the print quality of a line will be fine. Shiraz RIP has some nice printing patterns when it comes to printing solids, in 2003 it was the only printer that was colour matched at the time, really liked the output as a lot of our work is pantone matching or top quality printing.
If you are after a printer to print minature text and doesn’t need any outdoor durability, then I would tell you to consider Eco-Solvent or Dye based things like HP 5500 and maybe slap some lamination over it, the different inks are not air drying and this can play havoc with a solvent printer.
Hope that helps.
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Mel,
I wouldn’t personally buy a Grenadier, i know eveyone can have a different story relating to how good these machines are, but i know of a trade supplier that was using one and it wasn’t that successful, so that’s usually a good indication.
As has been mentioned, the machine is a re-badged Roland, but has been converted to run full solvent, so it’s a machine being asked to do something it wasn’t built to do, unlike the original machine or the Seiko etc.
I would consider one of the other printers in that price range if it were me.
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when you talk converted, are we not just talking about the tubes that carry the ink being replaced with tougher tubes to stop curode from the solvent?
if your printing small text, im assuming small labels, signs. this being the case contour cut fascilities are needed? this being an important factor when purchasing your machine ide opt for an “all in one” roland sol, versacamm, or grenadier or cadet.
NO machine on the market is a true winner, all have their faults. some more than others. buy whats going to best suit your needs.
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Conversions are not an issue… the heads are proven to work with solvents and many different types of ink. As a JV3 user, we did heavily think about the Grenadier for our purpose but decided on JV3 in the end.
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quote cosign:Hi Shane
Are you able to print small text and graphics clearly without graininess ?
Do you think that the quality is at least as good as when you were running Eco Sol Inks ? The reason that I am asking is that a lot of the larger true Solvent machines while very fast and relatively cheap to run seem to struggle with small text and the dot pattern is big.Kind Regards
Mel
I print 1 & 2mm text all the time. Never an issue here but your heads must be firing well, that is with few drop outs.
Not sure about pauls comment about the conversion, as they replace the pumps and tubing to cope with the solvents, and the heads are the same as solvent units.
Techinks are exceptionally fine, I think the finest on the market if you believe the ‘blurb’ which helps with the clarity I’m told.
I use colorrip too and have no problems.
I am happy to post you a sample if you want to let me know your address.
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We have a Roland SC540EX which we we had loads of troubles with until we moved over to maintenance with B&P Lightbrigade (they sell the Grenadier) our Roalnd has been converted to full solvent, uses the same pumps, heads and tubes as before conversion. If you want to come to our office I will show you photographs blown to 6ft by 3ft that you cant tell the difference between them and their 6″ by 4″ inkjet printer versions.
All cut using opos on Summa T160 (we can cut out 2mm letters), its not the machine its the operators and the maintenance
Reagrds Adrian
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We have just ordered (and take delivery on the 21st Feb) a 74″ Grenadier.
We looked at the Seiko, and went off it fast (primarily the price, by the time all the extras were added, and something to do with the ink it wasted when it was left on).
There are some good deals out there on the Grenadier, and definitely worth a look.
Chris.
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Basically, all the machines that have had some kind of conversion have run in to problems because of the nature of the full solvent, i discovered this when i was researching inkjet for a full year before i bought one. when you start talking to people who have run the various machines, the same names tend to crop up, positively and negatively.
The whole issue about the Elan was a good point. I nearly bought that machine but it turned out to be a failure. Having said that, the print output from that machine was at times, outstanding, and for as many people as i know who returned the machine, i know one who really likes it and continues to use it, so like i said, you can get a different story from different people.
Inkjet media suppliers are a good source of reference, they can tell you a bit about reliability seeing as they deal with lots of different owners
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chris, with that avatar mate, I think I’d better put on some more formal clothes :lol1: :lol1: me in my daggy jeans, your raising the bar on a dress code here mate 😉
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the JV3 will waste ink, say every 20 minutes or so when it is on standby or just resting, it has to or we end up with dodgy heads. The first generation solvents like the Mutoh Albatros printers wasted ink every 3 seconds!
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Thank You all for your input. The converted Soljet certainly seems to be very popular. I am also considering the Eco Sol Version but am concerned about the longevity of the prints and the ability to print onto uncoated media. It has certainly been thrashed out a lot here, however what are the results of late with the new Maxx Inks and the ability to print onto uncoated media.
Any news ?Another thought occurred to me, Why does Roland not offer a modified machine ? They are obviously aware that many people are converting them to full solvent machines.
Regards
Mel
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quote cosign:Thank You all for your input. The converted Soljet certainly seems to be very popular. I am also considering the Eco Sol Version but am concerned about the longevity of the prints and the ability to print onto uncoated media. It has certainly been thrashed out a lot here, however what are the results of late with the new Maxx Inks and the ability to print onto uncoated media.
Any news ?Another thought occurred to me, Why does Roland not offer a modified machine ? They are obviously aware that many people are converting them to full solvent machines.
Regards
Mel
Hello Mel,
Roland don’t do a ‘full solvent’ machine because of the problems that the solvents cause, i.e. repairs breakdowns and general unreliability as well as maintenance issues, so they have stuck with an easy to use, reliable method and are obviously trying to close the gap in the difference of the ink technology instead.
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Mel, Roland were banking on the less smelly inks that eco sol produce. I’m not sure how Paul came to the conclusion he did, but my research didn’t come up with this conclusion at all. Paul may have access to info I didn’t tho.
Roland have not wanted to go down the full solvent path simply because it goes against their original plan. They have invested massive money into the ‘eco’ inks and people converting are a thorn in their side. I have experienced their ‘attitude’ here, but I think the aussie operation is fairly ignorant, or perhaps arrogant may be a better description.
I would not be suprised tho, if some time in the near future, they embrace an oem solvent supplier to capture a market they are obviously losing.
As far as the reliability of solvent over eco, I had more warranty complaints with my heads and pumps when it was running eco, than since I have moved over to solvent. That is not to say I have not had blockage problems with solvent either. I think the hot weather we have here over such a long period does create issues with the inks drying in the tubes if you don’t use the machine for a few days.
The secret to solvent is to keep up with your maintenance. If you are sloppy in that respect, it will bite you. 🙄
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thats just it, maintenance takes 5 minutes on a friday night. not messy at all… just some drops and a few wipes with swabs. done till monday morning. long holiday, complete flush and leave. come back and start again. no problems. if your under warranty you have nothing to worry about anyway.
signwriters, screen printers, spray painters etc etc all have to clean their tools after each job. this is once a week and takes minutes. why this is a problem for some beats me!
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quote Robert Lambie:signwriters, screen printers, spray painters etc etc all have to clean their tools after each job. this is once a week and takes minutes. why this is a problem for some beats me!have to agree….i clean every thursday, and think the same thing (not a problem) 😉
nik
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quote Shane Drew:Mel, Roland were banking on the less smelly inks that eco sol produce. I’m not sure how Paul came to the conclusion he did, but my research didn’t come up with this conclusion at all. Paul may have access to info I didn’t tho.
Roland have not wanted to go down the full solvent path simply because it goes against their original plan. They have invested massive money into the ‘eco’ inks and people converting are a thorn in their side. I have experienced their ‘attitude’ here, but I think the aussie operation is fairly ignorant, or perhaps arrogant may be a better description.
I would not be suprised tho, if some time in the near future, they embrace an oem solvent supplier to capture a market they are obviously losing.
As far as the reliability of solvent over eco, I had more warranty complaints with my heads and pumps when it was running eco, than since I have moved over to solvent. That is not to say I have not had blockage problems with solvent either. I think the hot weather we have here over such a long period does create issues with the inks drying in the tubes if you don’t use the machine for a few days.
The secret to solvent is to keep up with your maintenance. If you are sloppy in that respect, it will bite you. 🙄
Shane, I was recently talking to some people at Roland about the various pro’s and con’s regarding eco and full solvent, so this info came up in that conversation. Apparently Roland (Japan) won’t go the full solvent route (at least not with the versacamm). Bearing in mind new health & safety rules and the change in what machines we will be allowed to run, the days of full solvent are probably numbered anyway, UV curable seems to be the next forward step etc.
When you see what the max inks can do, and you stand next to the machine with virtually no odour whatsoever, you can see the logic in this machine.
I think the full solvent machines are good if you can run them more or less all the time, but obviously the full solvent destroys the parts eventually, so although replacement parts are a breeze if you’re under warranty, what about if you’re not?
That’s another issue…warranty cover, annually around £3,000? plus the relative cost of each machine should be considered because they are different!
Just a few helpful points here for anyone considering a purchase 🙂
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I think that I’ve seen it mentioned that the printing is slightly sharper with the eco sol inks, also people running the versacam as Roland intended are having less trouble with the heads deteriorating than with the full solvent.
As has been said though maintenance is a must, why spend all that money and then just leave it until it’s gone wrong before working on it.You buy a car and either change the oil yourself or pay a garage to do it, these machines are costing the same amount of money as a car, cost less to run and can make a very good profit so why stint on the maintenance.
Steve
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I think we have to agree to disagree Paul.
I have had my machine a few years now, didn’t take up the warranty extension, and I don’t think I’ll need it frankly. 3000 quid is way out of my price range anyway. I think the ones here are in the $100’s not $1000’s.
The print heads have a life anyway, whether solvent or eco inks, so I’d expect to be up for new ones eventually.
The only thing that will be a problem with solvents is the pump. The piping is replaced for stronger material at the upgrade, and the pumps need replacing when they wear anyway. When I had my unit as an eco solvent printer, Roland still advise on regular servicing of the pumps because they are the thing most likely to fail.
Rolands marketing dept are in overdrive trying to convince everyone that the new max inks are the bees knees. And, don’t get me wrong, they are obviously good, but they are not as good as the real deal.
My research found that as far as the safety aspects, the max inks still have some pretty nasty incredients, so the safety argument does not really wash with me. I work beside my solvent printer and it does not worry me in the least.
You are right about the inks tho. I think you’ll find that most of the ink manufacturers are already researching alternatives to beat the new EU rules on chemicals by 2010(?) We see citrus based inks out already, and they are still better, from what I have been told, than the eco inks. My opposition has just converted his JV3’s over and he is getting stunning results.
Of course the best thing about converting a roland, is that you can go back to eco inks at any time.
Cheers
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quote Shane Drew:I think we have to agree to disagree Paul.
I have had my machine a few years now, didn’t take up the warranty extension, and I don’t think I’ll need it frankly. 3000 quid is way out of my price range anyway. I think the ones here are in the $100’s not $1000’s.
The print heads have a life anyway, whether solvent or eco inks, so I’d expect to be up for new ones eventually.
The only thing that will be a problem with solvents is the pump. The piping is replaced for stronger material at the upgrade, and the pumps need replacing when they wear anyway. When I had my unit as an eco solvent printer, Roland still advise on regular servicing of the pumps because they are the thing most likely to fail.
Rolands marketing dept are in overdrive trying to convince everyone that the new max inks are the bees knees. And, don’t get me wrong, they are obviously good, but they are not as good as the real deal.
My research found that as far as the safety aspects, the max inks still have some pretty nasty incredients, so the safety argument does not really wash with me. I work beside my solvent printer and it does not worry me in the least.
You are right about the inks tho. I think you’ll find that most of the ink manufacturers are already researching alternatives to beat the new EU rules on chemicals by 2010(?) We see citrus based inks out already, and they are still better, from what I have been told, than the eco inks. My opposition has just converted his JV3’s over and he is getting stunning results.
Of course the best thing about converting a roland, is that you can go back to eco inks at any time.
Cheers
Shane, the maintenance contracts here are around £3000 – £3500 per year with the full solvent machines, Roland have told me they don’t generally offer a maintenance contract because there is no need. That extra cost actually put me off the full solvent machines quite a bit, but i was told by all the other suppliers that the cost of the contract was ‘easily absorbed’ by customers running the machines. Of course, they will change the heads for you in that contract but to buy them, they are in the region of £450 – £700 per head depending on the machine…
I think with the max inks they are on to a good thing, the only difference being they are slightly less abrasive resistant than full solvent, but even when I was getting trade work done with full solvent, i was still having it laminated, so there’s no discernable difference there.
If you’re working in close proximity to your machine you must be venting it out i assume? We don’t need to do that, there’s literally no odour, and i find that a really big plus, especially around an office environment.
Which machine have you got Shane, Is it a converted versacamm?Paul
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sc540 print and cut
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I had to vent my eco unit as the odour was worse in our high humidity and extreme heat. I have an exhaust fan in the wall vented into the workshop. I use the same fan for the solvent too. I’m also saving considerable cost on the inks.
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you’re probably getting a better deal on the inks anyway i think, everything seems more expensive in the UK 🙁
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£3500???? not sure where your getting that… i could be wrong but im sure we just took extended warranty out and it was £1800 for our grenadier.
smells? eco or solvent both are whiffy… OK so solvent is more so but a small extracting fan does the job fine. I’ve had ours now well over a year. no problems…. eco or not, i think you will find you should have some sort of vetilation regardless.
i would never slant a Roland machine. they are great makes and i have had many over the years. the gren is converted one. however, i have had nothing but bother with after sales for my Roland’s since day dot. probably why its free! that was one of the reasons i switched to graphtec for our cutters and now b&p for printer.
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£3,500 is way off the mark, as you know Rob, we just ordered our Grenadier, and got a price on 2nd year warranty, more like the £1800 figure your quoting.
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Your not wrong about Roland Service Rob. It is only that the machine is so good that they sell.
I purchased mine thru a sub dealer here who offers the best service of any in our industry.
I have had Rolands now for many years, (as well as graphtec) but I’m happy to stay with them as long as I don’t have to put up with their arrogant manner 👿
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quote Robert Lambie:£3500???? not sure where your getting that… i could be wrong but im sure we just took extended warranty out and it was £1800 for our grenadier.
smells? eco or solvent both are whiffy… OK so solvent is more so but a small extracting fan does the job fine. I’ve had ours now well over a year. no problems…. eco or not, i think you will find you should have some sort of vetilation regardless.
i would never slant a Roland machine. they are great makes and i have had many over the years. the gren is converted one. however, i have had nothing but bother with after sales for my Roland’s since day dot. probably why its free! that was one of the reasons i switched to graphtec for our cutters and now b&p for printer.
Rob,
That’s the exact figure Spandex quoted me for the maintenance on the Elan, and to be fair, it didn’t vary much from a few other suppliers, a year on and that figure may well be £1800….well that’s still nearly two thousand pounds a year you have to pay out over the cost of the consumables!!
I really have to disagree with what you said there about the smell of the ink, we don’t vent out at all, we don’t need to, you can stand next to this machine and very rarely do you smell anything, it is that good, maybe that’s something particular to eco max….
I can’t really comment about Roland’s service because this is the first machine i’ve had from them, but there are plenty of other firms out there doing inkjet that people complain about, bad service and support etc..
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I think you summed up the £3500 in one word there Paul….. Spandex!!!
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lol, they’re not exactly known for their competitive pricing are they?!
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I have been ringing on and off to the company I bought my Roland from
(just under two years ago) whenever I thought I had a problem only to be assured there wasnt one….
however last week the ink started pouring out of the machine 🙁 and I was informed the pump had gone…would cost me about £500.when the pump was replaced I was nicely informed the head had gone
🙁whilst the head was being replaced was nicely informed that two dampers had gone..the other two would go soon so would I like two or four replacing 😕 sooooooooo in for a penny in for a pound……..
the printing is now pristine and I am waiting for a bill in the region of £1000 soooo compared to £3000 – 3500 per annum I reckon I am better off without the maintenance contract….well so far :lol1:
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Oh and in reply to ..is small printing clear with the eco sol…..since the new head its absolutely fantastic to be honest dont think its ever been so good
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Have you started this forum again? Just that I noticed it said I have only posted twice
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Lyndy I’m not sure which Roland machine you are using but I have just changed my pump, capping station and both print heads myself for a total outlay of £180.00 vat. Given that Rowland quoted me £260.00 vat per print head I think I saved a few quid there.
Peter
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Where I can find these parts for 180£ ? Because only pumps are 120 euro’s each here.
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I HAVE THE SP 300 VERSACAM…..I WOULD BE GRATEFUL IF YOU COULD TELL ME WHERE TO BUY THE PARTS FROM
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Pump, capping station and both print heads myself for a total outlay of £180.00 vat???
That sure is cheap.If you buy original Roland heads there is one difference with the (original) Epson replacements, the Roland heads have a handwritten L or R on them. Every Roland head has been tested and checked, the best are selected for left position in machine and the other for the rigth, there are also (handwritten) numbers on for the exact settings in the machine …. the heads that fail their test end up in …..
(and if that aint true then they really fooled me)I have experience with the difference in quality of printheads, but cannot say what is best to use, but I have learned that paying more for a printhead can save you alot of trouble.
Roland Max inks are really much better then the previous roland inks.
JJ
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i have an jetster 62 inch not to many probs so far, but i’ve read here on the thread that they are horrible, do you mean the printer itself or spandex? i know spandex is an awfull partner, the entire belgian division has only 2 sane people who know what they are doing, everyone else i’ve met knows nothing about our bussines.
(i once went trew 5 people on the phone until they understood what i meant by cleaning fluid)staying on topic here are there any things i should beware off with the jetster? really keen to know to be prepared when desaster stikes
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