Please can I have some opinions

[Peter Normington]

Bob most of the top end cutters will do good work
Graphtec, Summa, Mimaki, Roland etc.
the quality of cut also depends on the fonts and software used, I use signlab as it has its own fonts, which, in the main are very good for small work, and just as important, can be enlarged without any jaggies. There are other dedicated sign programmes around such as Flexi, but many people use Corel and Illustrator with equal success.
Dedicated programs usually have features that are more intuitive to signmakers, and some tools to make the cutting process more simple, sending the data direct to the cutter without the need for an interface between the design program and plotter.
Most software can be downloaded on a trial basis so i would recommend trying a few to see which you get on with the best. What software have you used before?

Hope this helps

Peter

[Chris Wool]

peter said it really except that i think that most TT fonts are at best passable. which are used i think by the majority. there are some very poor TT fonts as well.
you can buy some stunning fonts in TT that are correctly digitized for cutting by sign people and this is possibly what you have seen.
as far a a cutter goes i have used both tangential and drag machines. and for normal sign shop use would only want a drag knife.
the graphtec i think does a tangential emulation if required for tough work.

enjoy

[Martin Pearson]

I can only vouch for Graphtec as that is the only machine I have used. Chris is correct as the graphtec machines have a tangential emulation mode which works well with small text and intricate graphics.

[Mike Grant]

As has been said it is usually the font itself that is bad. Been caught out a few times with that one, what looks good in print can cut like a dogs breakfast. Most good brand name cutters are well recommended.

[David Rogers]

I’ve used graphtecs & presently on a Summa for the last 5.5 yrs.

Either one is up for years of quality service.

Can’t split them on terms of output quality.

Graphtecs tend to look (cosmetically) a bit nicer – Summas very utilitarian.

Each has little features that are handy…but aren’t necessary.

Have also used Rolands – but only ancient ones (CAMM-1) and a colour-camm.
Were OK – just not my cup of tea, although to be fair – was pretty old technology.

Dave

[Bob Clarkson]

The Gerbers I have, are 4Bs, They are around 23yrs old now, thus they don’t use software as are not PC based. If you are unfamiliar with them, they are a machine in their own right, they can do nothing other than cut letters. They are so old I have to cut the "@" symbol by hand as there was no widely available internet when they were made, makes you think. They have the versatility of being able to do upper/lower case, extending/condensing and slant to any chosen degree or percentage in one of 12 chosen styles, they can also write in reverse or in an arc. That really is their full capacity, they don’t even have a memory, so I have masses of bits of paper with measurement on them for repeat work. But what they do have going for them is quality and accuracy that can hold it’s own up against any modern cutter. Design supplies, in London has been the only company I’ve contacted that has shown any true customer service, they have arranged a demonstration of each cutter, the others companies I contacted couldn’t even gets the samples right (:) The Graphtec is around 2k cheaper than the Summa, so I really have to know I’m getting my monies worth if I go Summa route. The whole file/program quality issues seem to have presented themselves in a few of the samples I have received. One of the companies blamed a bad file when I said the sample they’d sent me was rubbish in my opinion, if it was a bad file why send it as a sample if you want best part of 3k for the cutter, it amazes me sometimes. Get the impression an expert with a modest cutter can do a far better job they an armature with the best one in the world, am I wrong??

[Bob Clarkson]

Can’t split them on terms of output quality.

Thanks everyone, but David, that’s exactly the type of thing I wanted to hear. I’m happy to pay the extra money (well I think prepared to pay the extra money might be more suited to my thoughts than happy) but as I said before, I don’t want to pay more than I have to, so if you can’t see a difference, I’d save 2k and have the Graphtec.
I know I shouldn’t write this next bit, and don’t want to offend anyone, but the sample Graphtec themselves sent me done on a FC8000 was far worse than Spandex sent me done on a Summa D600. Graphtec blamed the file, Spandex has now told me twice their rep will be contacting me, but no one’s actually bothered, it’s nearly a month now, so I wouldn’t deal with them either way now. Must also point out neither company sent me what I asked for either. This was however where I came up with the theory of "pilot error" so have no alternative but to see each cutter in action for myself. Thanks again to everyone.

[Liam Pattison]

Hi Bob,
i am incredibly fussy about the quality of the cut, to the point of annoying anybody who tries to work with me!

I use a Graphtec CE5000-120 which was recommended to me by many of the helpfull people on this forum. I can vouch for it’s quality 100%.

I recently did the signs for a small shop – i could see their previous sign on which the lettering truly looked as though it had been cut by scissors. I asked who did it and they mentioned the name of one of the biggest sign companies near me who are long established.

I know they have a ‘better’ cutter than me, so it is correct what you say, a lot of it comes down to the user.

Some people are not that fussy about the cut quality of their work, so would not even bother to adjust the blade offset correctly- i have seen this several times, most evident in circles. It’s just like with any kind of art work, what is acceptable to some is not to others.

So i would say if you can get the graphtec cheaper than the other make it should be more than suibtable for you

Liam

[Chris Wool]

like i said before crap in crap out don’t matter which plotter.

the 4B used hand digitized fonts and are of generally high quality. after all remember what they cost when new each.

most TT fonts are electronically generated and will have flaws in them. as they were developed for desk top publishing not big signs.

the fonts from letterheads etc. are created by hand and show in the way they cut.

i have 2 graphtec’s and bought instead of a summa would buy again tomorrow if i had too, i like the summa T but not at that price difference.

chris

[David Rogers]

Check with various suppliers as some do ‘free’ media baskets & stands…and some just deliver a plotter…

That’s what swung me in favour of the Summa v Graphtec.

Some also do ‘money off deals’ from time to time.

Dave

[Bob Clarkson]

I hoped to establish the cutter I wanted/needed first, then I was going to start grinding the price down. I’ve noticed very much with both cutters and software that the prices are literally all over the place.
Especially after what Chris said, I shall be careful with software, and Liam has confirmed the operators efforts will pay dividends.
Gerber fonts were getting toward £250 each back in the late 80s, but at that time, anything other than a Gerber was about as good as a using a Stanley knife after a couple of cans of Stella 😕 In 1987, a 4B was about a third of the price of a three bedroom semi, and very hard to negotiate as they were the only thing on the market worth buying. Fortunately things have changed on the comparison front now. As I was only 20yrs old when I bought them, I had enough energy to work them hard and make them earn their money, added bonus to that is I’m still using them now, so they weren’t a bad investment really.

[Mike Grant]

I still have a working 4b. Mine will run off my PC but you have to get the appropriate upgrade that makes any font you have for the machine absolutely useless. Great machine but slow as hell compared to the modern stuff.

[Bob Clarkson]

Ok mike, now that sounds interesting. I’ve got two 4Bs, how do I go about using one of them in conjunction with a PC?? The amount of work I do these days that would probably surfice at least in the short term. If you can help me make this happen I will be more than grateful.

[Mike Grant]

Probably couldn’t do it now, this was done donkeys years ago by their engineer when we upgraded to a Pentium 133 😮 He had to swap out the mother board and take out the font module board or something like that! Big bucks back then. 🙄
It wouldn’t hurt to give Spandex a ring, you never know they may still be able to do it.
Just realised you would probably need to run it with Graphics Advantage program, so with hind sight you would be better off getting modern kit. Read into that "cheaper"

[Nigel Pugh]

Take your pick, most cutters from £800 plus offer a full lcd control panel, most operate with servo motors, have optical eye for contour cutting and most all come with a print driver / plugin to allow you to cut from you existing software along with free software with the cutter.

You will also find 1yr, 2yr and 3yr warranties on various machines just depends what model you go for.

Cutters now days in the price bracket of £800 – £2000 are so much alike when you get past the look and the badge on the front, underneath they are using pretty much like for like parts.

[Bob Clarkson]

My Summa demonstration is this week, then a week or so after I get to see the Graphtec. Spandex have got back to me, and reckon I’ll be happy with a D600. If that is the case, (they are sending more samples) it’ll save a few quid, which can only be a good thing. You’d really thing companies in general would pay a bit more care and attention to what they send out. Give a bit of effort on the sample, and sell a 4k cutter sounds like easy money to me.
I’ve not seem any of the samples sent to me yet, that would prove Nigel wrong, and I know if you buy a watch for a £10, it’s generally got the same insides as if you buy one for £50, it’s just the case that’s better. But I also know a Land Rover Discovery is no BMW X5. So believe it’s not necessarily a straightforward decision, to buy a cutter, just because on the surface it’s the same sort of thing. If the quality of product and standard of it’s performance is important to you, there are always swaying factors in whatever you’re buying…

[Bob Clarkson]

Right, well it’s hardly all gone well this week. Think I’m about ready to either buy from Spandex, or just not bother at all and stick with my 4B’s till we’re further into recession and people can be bothered to make an effort. Now I’ve had my little moan, let me explain.
Summa guy was suppose to have turned up Tuesday 24th, he phones half hour before he’s due and tells me he’s broken down, ok, fair enough it can happen, but the rest of the week goes by without further contact. If it’s left like that when I’m prepared to buy a Summa Tangential for over 5 grand, what sort of service will I get if I buy a little D60 for under £1500 and for some reason it won’t work properly.
Graphtec didn’t get back to me at all regarding confirming a day for demonstration, that was promised over 2 weeks ago, but would it matter as they sent me two lots of rubbish samples, so what’s the point! Thing is, it does matter, as it must be a good machine due to the amount of you guys that use them. If the samples I was sent were typical, no one would ever buy one.
If I buy from Spandex, the warranty is their own, but it’s only a year, on site and a year parts only. Summa is 3yrs as you all know, but if it takes a week to get back to me when buying, how good is warranty. Spandex warranty may be a lot less, but the service so far way exceeds the other few places I’ve contacted. They are also the best price, trouble is they supply, Omega 4, which none of you seem to use, there must be a reason for that? Do I just expect too much, or do others on here feel the same?? There is way more knowlege on this forum than the dealers have, I don’t mean with regards to making signs, I mean knowing their products, some of then might just as well be selling garden furniture! Have to say though, Ben from Spandex does seem to be able to answer all the questions, shorter warranty or not, don’t think I have an option…

[Ian Johnston]

bloody hell, i would hate to be a plotter sales man.
£1500 plotter at 10% commission £150 and you want a demo on site!! 😮

can you scan some of these samples that are so bad so we can see what’s wrong?

Plotters are a lot to do with whats put in. Take for example a font that was specked on a job i did last week, BAUHAUS ttf. It looked perfect on 1:50 plans but was shite in reality when cut a full scale, therefore it required a bit of tweeking from me as the signmaker to make it correct.

Ian

[Chris Wool]

it would be interesting if you could show us what you are not happy with, apart from the service.
for general sign work i can’t see the point of the extra cash for tangential i have used it and understand it just think you are chasing the wrong end of the stick.

chris

[Bob Clarkson]

The demo was for the tangential, and they offered to come to me. Think for over 5k I should at least be able to see something work first. (I only became suspicious/paranoid because of bad samples remember) It was also the Summa rep, so he won’t be on commission as you can’t buy direct from them. I actually said, if you bring it down, give me a demo and I’ll do a cash tranfer there and then, but they won’t sell direct, will only sell through their dealers. I was going to have to travel to London to meet up for the Graphtec one.
It seems most of the dealers just sell them, they purely pass them through in true mail order fashion, they don’t have much knowledge or premises with demonstrators on site etc. I went to Bristol to buy the 4B’s, and really didn’t mind going that far again, it’s not like I buy these things very often.
I will post the Graphtec stuff Chris, it was purely through seeing that I made the assumption I needed Tangential. If that was how a 3k cutter cut, I assumed I needed to pay 5k, does that make sense? Now I’ve had the stuff cut by Spandex on a D60, I totally agree with you, there is no point in me buying the dearer one. The D60 is fine, ideal in fact for the stuff I do now, I really only do vans. I’ll do the odd fascia, site boards and a bit of general too. But I don’t really take on jobs that involve small stuff, ie under 10mm. I’m happy for Spandex just to stick a D60R in the post, if their rep hadn’t been on holiday when I first phoned I wouldn’t have wasted my time with anyone else, I should have just waited. I’m as bad as the customers I get that have driven about in their van un-written for 3mth, then when they decide they want it done, they want it done immediately (!)

[Nigel Pugh]

Bob I got asked for a quote the other week for a Summa S Class Tangential cutter, now we are talking £6k or more for said machine, now in my own opinion unless you are after cutting 4mm lower case sans serif then why spend so much.

As mentioned before a ‘lesser cutter’ depends what you class as that, will do just the same job and cost you 5k less at least. Most machines run the same/ similar servo motors, have control panels to set speed, pressure, offset, optical eye etc.

Nigel

[Bob Clarkson]

Fully agree, but I am prepared to pay whatever it will cost to get what I want, my definition of what I "want", is a best possible cut I can get! But as I won’t take on jobs that involve masses of tiny letters, this may not be as expensive as first thought, though I still have two tangential Gerber’s if I chose to do some really small stuff.
If both machines D60 drag and s75 tangential cut to the same degree, that I can’t tell the difference on letters between 10mm and 600mm, then obviously I’m not going to throw away around 4k for the sake of it.
As much as I do run my little company as a registered business, I write vans/make signs more for my own pleasure and personal satisfaction than as a job these days. I do not compremise to suit the customer, I won’t even do a layout/design they may want if I don’t like it. The quality of what I make is the most important to me.
I know it sounds arrogant, but when I was doing signs full time, my unreasonable standards kept me busy for over 20yrs, without needing to advertise. When writing vans, I will explain roughly what I’m going to do, but then say " I may change this completely if I think of something better while I’m doing it." As long as it says what’s needed, I feel how it’s done should be the job for the person who’s done it for 30yrs to decide. That was how it worked when stuff was written by hand, and I’m not changing for anyone. If I wasn’t confident the customer would be happy with my work, then I wouldn’t do signwork at all.
I know it’s only a matter of time before someone hates what I’ve done for them, but it hasn’t happened in 30yrs, and my work isn’t getting worse, so I think I’m pretty safe…
This is the whole point of my quest for the best quality equipment I can get, the layout, colour, standard of fitting I can control, I can’t allow what comes out the plotter or poor standard of software, to be the bit that lets me down..