Solvent Print out-gassing Roland TR2 Inks, views and opinions please?

[Graham Scanlan]

Hi David,

What gassing off method do you use?

[David Hammond]

Left it on the roll from the take up unit 😂

I know it’s better to stand it up on end, wound loosely, even better still to have a fan drawing air & solvent down and away.

I’ve spoken with Metamark, and they agree it’s probably outgassing. Might try and whack the heaters up to the max and do some experimenting

[David Stevenson]

Hi David, we too have been having huge problems with TR2 inks. I believe we run the same printer (VF2-640). We’ve spoken with our rep and whilst Roland state you can laminate after 6 hours we’ve found for wraps ourselves and others are needing at least 5 days unrolled on a dryer rack!!! Weeding is the exact same as you’re experiencing although I’ve always found printed material horrible to weed at the best of times. We intend now to convert an old steel cabinet into a hardcore drying unit to dump all our materials into. I’ve attached a link I posted explaining the difficulties we’ve been experiencing. I get the feeling TR3 inks will be here sooner rather than later as this is just unacceptable 🙁

https://uksignboards.com/forums/discussion/problems-with-rolands-truevis-tr2-inks/

[David Hammond]

I’m glad it isn’t just me!

It appears to affect the green/orange inks more. Perhaps its the cooler weather making it more noticeable?

Never needed a drying cabinet, or to faff around with the EcoSol inks.

What temperatures are you using on the machine?

[David Stevenson]

We’ve it set to 45c for the Print Heater, and Maxed out the Dryer at 50c. Still doesn’t make any difference. The more saturated the longer to dry and the tackier the glue 🙁 Apparently Oracal are working on a new profile which will hopefully help. You could try metamarks profile for MPI1105 which is their wrapping vinyl. I have it here if you want it emailed through

[David Wilde]

When we bought our Roland, the engineer raised his eyebrows considerably when I mentioned the 6 hour gassing off period. We have found 24-48 hours is usually needed and that’s for flat sign panels.

The issue with the cutting does seem to be a gassing off issue from how you describe it though.

If it helps we have some old milk crates in the corner of the vinyl room which we loosely stand the rolls on to gas off. Definitely improved the times compared to just standing the rolls on their side.

[David Hammond]

I spoke to Roland today, they agree it sounds like outgassing issue, but they were surprised as it was 22 hours. That said it’s not something they’ve come across with the cutting and it only affecting certain printed colours more than others.

That said, they did suggest standing the roll on end, loosely wound, should help the solvent fall away. We’ve some birch ply over from a job so have ordered two fans and will knock up a box to draw the air down over the rolls.

Their other suggestion was it may be the hot laminator causing and issue and to try cold laminating?

I’m confident it’s an outgassing issue, but the 6hr claim must only apply if you’ve printed pantone 7603, on a Monday, following a full moon, with an easterly wind not exceeding 4mph, for a client called Brian. 🤨

No manufacturer of material, inks, machinery, seems to give any indication on how best to outgas prints.

[David Wilde]

To be honest, I doubt that’s the case mate.

Pantone 7603 is a medium/dark brown and heavy in ink saturation….

[David Hammond]

My attempt at humour 🤣

Reprinted, left on end overnight, same issue on one logo. Roland have the print file for them to test and see if they can replicate it.

[RobertLambie]

The best way to work out if it is the vinyl or the inks is to properly test them “as best you can”.

1, Laminate a foot or two of MD5. (no print)
2, Laminate a foot or two of another brand digital and laminate. (no print)
3, Laminate a foot or two of solid panels of Printed CMYK in both brands of digital.
(Allow 24hrs to outgas.)
4, Set the blade pressure and note it down.
4, Now cut the alphabet in lowercase and capitals in the following sizes.
18mm – 30mm – 50mm
5, Now try and weed them all, and note problematic letters and sizes as you do.

Doing this will let you see if the vinyl is the issue with or without ink/print.
It will let you see if the ink has the same effect on both media at the same time, settings and all else.
It could be that the solvent has an adverse effect on the print medias adhesive. because contrary to what many think, it is not just the vinyl that is affected by the solvent, but the adhesive is too. the solvent may have 90% gone from the vinyl, but could be 70% still in the adhesive.

All that aside, it could be that the manufacturer is having issues with their adhesive coating.
Over the past ten years, this has happened twice “that I have heard of” with Oracal 651. Which is NOT a digital vinyl. Many sign makers had a spell where it was weeding very poorly. basically, the vinyl was cut perfectly fine. but those that left the vinyl sitting unweeded, found it a nightmare to weed! Apparently, the adhesive was gel’ing back together after it had been cut. if you just cut and weeded right away it was pretty much spot on. but leave it 30 minutes or so and it was a different situation.

I know you have tried various vinyl etc. and did not have a problem. but i would suggest trying a brand new blade and getting the pressure to cut light, but not making a mark/score in the carrying liner. see how that goes?
Also, looking at the freeze frame of your video, I can see that the pressure is too high on the blade or the blade is on its road out. this creates the appearance of more of a chamfered cut, which catches the light much more, making it very visible like in the attached photo.

either way, it would be great to hear how you get on with this David. makes great reading and help for others with the same problem, mate. 👍

David Stevenson, sorry mate, I missed that reply in that other post you made mate. definitely, a better solution for out-gassing than just sitting. 👍

[David Hammond]

You’re right Rob, the pressure is too high on the green, but then too low on the grey, despite it being fine on the test cut on the unprinted area before cutting.

I’ve ruled out the blade using a new blade.

The cutting strip is OK, and if it was the strip would affect all areas that are cut in the same spot. I’m reluctant to change it just to damage it whilst we have the issue.

I need to do some testing that sounds like a job for Tuesday.

[RobertLambie]

Having watched the video again mate, I think I have sussed why things are difficult to weed.
It’s that bloody background music, please ask Paul to turn that off during all future tests and trials. 🤨🤣🤣😉

[David Hammond]

My choice of music, I find it keeps me calm when silly things like this happen… listening to death metal results in the offending item being launched around the workshop 😂

[RobertLambie]

I always had the radio playing loud in the workshop or while driving. but the past 10 years, it just irritates me and i turn it off. Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with some good background music but Christmas songs etc 😳😩

🤣

[David Hammond]

Classic FM, we’re very cultured, and the music tends to be longer, with less talking

😂

Back to the problem in hand, we’ve to two large extractor fans, and will be modifying a cupboard into an drying unit, with heater element at the top, and fans to draw the air down through the bottom.

[David Hammond]

2x 10inch, 240v fans have arrived to aid the outgassing process…

They certainly shift some air – https://youtu.be/I8mAr0M3wP8

[David Hammond]

Did someone say air flow aids outgassing 😂
Fans are fitted, in the new year we’ll make to ‘chimneys’ to fit around them, to house the graphics, and install a double switch so they can be turned on & off separately.

[David Stevenson]

Tidy bit of work there David. I built something very similar a few years back to aid drying although we still struggle with the prints from the VF2-640. Your fans though are huge compared to what we’re using, time for an upgrade for us I think. Where did you buy the fans if you don’t mind me asking? Something you might want to bear in mind if you intend on sitting the rolls directly on top of those fan guards is they’ll bend pretty quick with the weight of the rolls. Might do no harm to make a “X” shape out of some 25mm H x 15mm W laths to take the weight.

[Chris Wilson]

Hey David,

Hope all is well.

Are you enjoying the machine overall? I’ve got a VG2 lined up with the orange ink. Worth it? Or do you find yourself swearing at it more than you thought?

[David Stevenson]

Here’s a comparison of the orange from our CMYK LC LM LK XR640 vs the VF2-640 with orange ink! Results speak for themselves .

[David Hammond]

No issues with the machine, had to have an engineer out early on as it wouldn’t print in the centre of the media, a small batch left the factory with something incorrectly set.

The green/orange work well for us as we do mainly vehicle graphics so the extra vibrancy comes in handy.

This outgassing issue is a first for us after many years using solvent machines, but we’ll suss it out, I have the customer bringing two Van’s in the new year so we’ll see if the new fans help.

[David Hammond]

Here it is in all its glory, the MK1 drying unit.

Got the same customer booked in on Monday, and the artwork still on the rip, so intend to print the same file, and drop it in here to help outgas, and see if the results are the same.

I’ve another smaller job at the moment, so have one in the dryer and one hung over the laminator and will see if there’s a noticeable difference.

[RobertLambie]

I love the fact you have spent time and money to try and eliminate this problem for your business, David. So many complain about this long term issue, yet none try to properly solve it!
I do not just mean sign and print companies, but more so, the solvent printer manufacturers. As it would be in the very best interest to help reduce the wait time or better the result after the wait time.
I have spoken about this for 15+ years on UKSB and it was included in part of my UKSG wrap training course, and I am no expert in it all. yet the basic principles of reducing the drying time and residual solvent in the prints, seem to be ignored by our industry!

Anyway, it’s great to see what you are doing and it’s very interesting to see how you get on with it.

Do your fans have a forward and reverse option?
Do they have speed settings?

[David Hammond]

We’re trying and we have a bit of a conclusion.

The fans don’t have a speed controller (yet) and are set to suck only. They were sucking so hard it caused the media to draw together when loosely rolled, so some masking tape to reduce airflow resolved that.

We left the prints in about 20hrs, and laminated this morning.

1 set we’re putting through our Roland GR cutter, it behaved mostly, with the exception of some smaller text which for some reason it decided would go through the backing! Tried a new blade, and a new red tipped blade which is a smaller diameter point, and the same occurred. Cutting strip is (was) new too. It’s snagging, and dragging the text, lifting if off the backing.

The second set are going to be cut on out trusty Graphtec FC8600, and I don’t anticipate their being a problem..

So yes the unit does appear to have aided the outgassing – However, we’re still not entirely satisfied with the Roland Cutter.

I’ll update how things progress!

[Gary Forbes]

I have completely missed this topic. great idea David, how much did the fans cost? they look powerful!

[David Hammond]

They are powerful, if anything to powerful and overkill, they pull the media in on itself restricting the airflow over some parts.

It has resolved the issue to some extent, although not fully, despite being loosely coiled, left overnight with the fans running, we still found the green weeded easier than the grey, one cut path on the green opened up, compared to the grey (photo attached)

I’m pondering if the colour management (max impact, true colour etc) has an effect on it? Obviously it can’t add more ink than the max limit thats set for each chanel and total, but does it have an effect on the density of the ink?

More testing to be done.

[David Stevenson]

Hi David, we’re having the exact same issue as you with our VF2-640. We’d originally a dryer like you’ve built but even after 5 days constant drying the glue on our wrap materials was still very tacky. I’ve a couple of profiles for wrap material (Avery MPI1105 & Arlon) suitable for your ink configuration (Orange & Green?) if you’d like me to send them to you. It’s been commented by our Roland engineer that these profiles lay down less ink and will hopefully help. Haven’t had anything in to wrap this year to test them but hopefully we’ll see an improvement

[RobertLambie]

I was thinking about this issue earlier on, and I didn’t reply because I was trying to remember the proper name/term of the lining paper that carries the digital vinyl. ( my mind is completely blank on this) Anyway, as may know, there are various types. some very cheap easy tearing thin paper, others heavier and coated… Can you have a look at the paper and have a feel of it, tear it and so on, and see if the one that is performing weeding better has a thinner or non-coated paper liner, than the one that isn’t. or vice versa??
It is just an idea I have but would kill my curiosity on this. 🤔

[Graham Scanlan]

Hi Rob,

There are 2 different types of liner

1. Kraft Clay Coated

1. P.E Coated

Hope that helps

[David Hammond]

Rob its 2x logos that are a mix of greens and grey, and one logo that is blue & grey.

These are all printed at the same time, same media, outgassed the same, laminated at the same time, and cut together – Yet I find the green printed areas week much easier – You can literally just RIP the border off, even on small text. The grey & blue areas need ‘poking’ away as they lift with the weed border.

This is the problem, I do a test cut to get the pressure right, then when it cuts depending on what colour you’ve printed the pressure it too much, or too little.

It occurs on both Graphtec and Roland cutters, new cutting straps new blades.

@David-Stevenson I’m using the MD5 profile, from metamark for our machine & ink. I also have the profile for Arlon SLX too.

I noticed yesterday that the Colour Management Preset in VW was set to “True Rich Colour 3” and it is designed for the green and orange ink, to widen the gamut of colours.

What I’m going to do next week is print a test file, and change this to other presets.

If you duplicate the job in the queue, nest them, you can change each one individually by selecting it in settings and see side by side how they look.

Here’s a link to Roland’s website with the different presets, and there’s an hour-long webinar on YouTube I watched yesterday that explains some of the advanced settings in much more detail.

https://downloadcenter.rolanddg.com/contents/manuals/VW6_English_R6/topic/tSelectingTheColorSetting.html

[RobertLambie]

Thanks, Graham,
much appreciated mate. 👍

David Hammond making it clear for me that it is the same vinyl, same ink, but a different colour printed at the same time, that is the issue! beats my thoughts on the lining paper anyway.

Not that this should matter with regards to the colours, but are you using an air release adhesive vinyl, David?

[David Hammond]

Yes air release using MD5AB.

I’m going to experiment with the colour management and see if a) I can see any visible difference between them b) whether the cut is different (although I’m in and out the unit the next week)

[RobertLambie]

I know it is irrelevant here because one weeds and one doesn’t.
But air-release vinyl is always
problematic when weeding. More so with laminated digital vinyl.

It will be interesting to see if the colour management will help.

[David Hammond]

Should be equally problematic regardless of colour printed though. 😂

Will keep experimenting

[RobertLambie]

yes, that’s what I meant by it being irrelevant. 😀

[RobertLambie]

did you say that this doesn’t happen with other vinyl, David?
and if so, did that have air release adhesive?

[David Hammond]

Yes normal CAD Vinyl, and Air Release CAD vinyl (M7A, 551) all seem to cut without issue. I understand they’re thinner, but it should rule out cutting strip issues as the cutter performs fine on these materials.

[David Hammond]

Done some test prints this morning with a file I created over the weekend.

Using the True Colour 3 setting, on the photoprint the colours bleed into each other.
Using the MaxImpact this doesn’t occur and the colours remain vibrants

Using the Euroscale, and sign & display some colours loose their vibrancy.

All printed using the correct MD5 profile, just changing the colour management settings. Perhaps MaxImpact lays down less ink?

[David Hammond]

I’ve been in communication with Roland UK who to be fair are next to useless.

Having sent printed samples to them, they’ve not actually tried test cuts, and by the time I did speak to someone would have outgassed themselves.

Their advice was to speak with Metamark, almost with a hint that it was their fault, and find out what testing and settings they recommend.

Metamark in fairness have been far more understanding, and are conducting their own testing – In essence the 6hr outgassing is, well, bollocks.

I then enquired with Roland as to on what basis they make the claim of 6hr outgassing, and what testing they have done in order to make this claim.

Roland’s reply below:

“Tests performed by Avery Dennison™ US on MPI Range digital media. When using this media, prints produced on VF2 and VG2 with TR2 ink can be laminated after a 6-hour period when rolls or images are properly ventilated and loosely wound. For more detail see:”

Anyone that knows me, and my interest in law, I’ve gone back to clarify a few points.

1) The inks were tested with 1 media, and in the US. – Yet the inks, and machines are advertised as “6 hour outgassing” around the glob, with the above detail hidden in the footer. I’m sure most will admit that this restriction was not advertised clearly at the time of purchase.

2) images are properly ventilated and loosely wound” What exactly does this vague term mean? What is “properly ventilated” and what is “loosely wound”.

The entire claim of 6hour outgassing is borderline farcical, unless you’re in the US, using Avery Media, and understand specifically what Roland refer to as “properly ventilated” and “loosely wound”.

This then poses a whole manner of other questions.

What images were printed, the ink coverage, profiles, colour management?
How was it tested after 6 hours? Stuck to a flat board, or applied as a wrap?

What were the criteria for the testing?

I’m very doubtful we’ll ever get the answers to these and Roland won’t back up their 6-hour claim. I might start using Avery MPI myself to test this 6hr claim!

[RobertLambie]

Interesting feedback, David. But I am not surprised, mate…

I understand Roland’s view on this, that it is possibly Metamarks problem because the issue is occurring with their media. But if this is an issue, then they SHOULD be more interested and want to find out if it is affecting any other vinyl brands, or is it isolated to just Metamark?

I am not sure if Matamark is an official Roland media partner as such, but if they are, both parties should really want to find out if this issue has been reported by others, rather than dismissing it or passing the buck! Unfortunately, the problem is most likely going unreported by the users, like you and I, so it flys well below the radar!

What I am more surprised about is the 6-hour claim by Avery on this grade of vinyl. When they will not warrant lamination of their vehicle wrapping vinyl any sooner than 92 hours. Which I am not knocking, as I can understand why, But still!

I think the real issue when making a complaint to any company like this, is who you actually speak with. most, are just a small cog in a huge wheel and their knowledge is limited to textbook information which is never real-world test results and is often outdated.

[David Hammond]

What is Rob is a load of marketing Bull s**t.

Our printed graphics will not fade for 10 years*

Printed on MD5 and locked in a box for 10 years.

To what extent has it been tested? Might get away with a vinyl thats not outgassed fully on flat panels, but what about a wrap?

What if I swap to Avery Vinyl and the problems still occur? Will Roland do something then?

Even the company who supplied the machine couldn’t tell me which media the 6hrs applies too, and are looking into it.

[David Stevenson]

We’ve tried wrapping with Avery MPI1105 after letting it dry for a few days (printed on VF2-640 with TR2 inks). The glue was extremely tacky and had lost it’s repositionable properties, the air release also didn’t work which combined made fitting a nightmare. We’ve also had similar issues with Oracal 3951GRA which had dried as recommended for over a week, and the same with Metamark MD-C. Trying to wrap with anything printed on the VF is a pain in the arse. Currently in talks with Roland (Rob) trying to get a profile made to work with Onyx as there’s nothing at all available. Absolute nightmare 🙁

[Kevin Mahoney]

When I bought the Epson a while back, I was given a similar story regarding out gassing & drying times. I let most of it go in one ear & out the other & stuck to our regular process & times. No issues at all. The fact that you boys are leaving it for a week & still having issues tells me the ink isn’t fit for purpose, I’d be demanding my money back now. Absolutely outrageous claims by Roland, I don’t believe they’ve tested it at all but rather let some creative writing class come up with the advertising blurb. I sympathise with your predicament

[David Hammond]

You’re entirely correct Kevin.

The 6hr out gassing wasn’t the main selling point of the machine, but it does annoy me when we’re leaving some graphics 24-48hrs, and STILL get the problems. It’s too hit and miss.

It might be fine on a flat panel, but wrapping it could result in a full reprint and re-wrap.

The guidance from Roland is woeful, and totally inadequate.

[Chris Wilson]

Oh great. Ours arrives on the 18th…………

[David Hammond]

It’s a great machine, the colours are brilliant. BUT this 6hr outgassing is utter pish.

Out of interest, ask the supplier of the machine the specifics about the 6hr outgassing.

[RobertLambie]

BUT this 6hr outgassing is utter pish.BUT this 6hr outgassing is utter pish.

no no, David, say what you really mean mate!? 🤣

[David Hammond]

You know me Rob, straight to the point.

However, Roland are sending me some blades for the plotter, not sure how they expect that to help 🙄

[Jeff]

I have always said, we are the guinea pigs for many things.

the manufacturers cover their back at every turn so the warranties mean zilch!.

[Darren Summers]

Hi David,

I hope you ressolve your issues – I’m sorry but, I cannot help in any way. I just wondered if you could let me know where you got the fans from please?

[David Hammond]

I can’t remember the site, but search vevor fans 👍

[Darren Summers]

I found their website but, all seems to be sold out.

Nevermind.

[David Hammond]

We’re still no further on.

Roland haven’t told me what specific MPI media they conducted their test on, or what colour management and profile they used.

There doesn’t seem to be an Avery specific profile for the VF2, with the ink configuration we use.

However they’ll send me some plotter blades, like that’s going to magically resolve the issue! 🙄

As far as I’m concerned they can either stand by their claim, or come and collect the piece of junk and I’ll go with the HP Latex.

[David Hammond]

Well, there it is in Black & white, from Roland themselves.

Can’t see that on their marketing materials and links they provided.

Not that 6hr is what sold me on the machine, as we can afford to leave it longer, but the green and orange inks are why we purchased it. Even after leaving the prints 24+ hrs still it doesn’t outgas fully. Its defies the point of having or & gr, might as well have bought a latex.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by  David Hammond.

[RobertLambie]

I cannot say I am surprised, David.
I wrote something in another post the past fortnight on UKSB. about how manufacturers do not hold all the answers to our problems with their products. they rely on “us lot” as guineapigs to complain enough for them to make right, or they carry on as before, blissfully unaware, whilst we are out of pocket and pulling our hair out.

I don’t blame Roland for not knowing this happens with this specific combination of Metamark and their ink, to then be cut in text at a certain size and colour. the variables are vast and understandable that it is missed. but they are guilty of not being clear that what they promote is based on “one single media” and that is Avery series-xxxx.

It is clear to printer and ink manufacturers that all media react differently to certain inks, or there wouldn’t be a never-ending list of profiles being done.
So if a vinyl manufacturer is profiling for print output quality then logic tells me that they should also be performing laminated and non-laminated vinyl cut tests amongst other tests. However, my guess is that perhaps they are only truly interested in official print partner testing.

[David Hammond]

We’re not being guinea pigs, we’re blatantly being lied to. 😡

Nowhere does it state the Orange & Green inks are not covered by the 6hr outgassing. Roland clearly knew about this, but instead have tried to lay blame elsewhere, before finally acknowledging the fact.

Compare that with the HP latex machines. They have HP Latex Certified media, I can go on the Metamark website, and download the certification, with the specifications of what settings were used for the test.

[Jamie Wood]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest. I was convinced that Roland would try and wriggle out of it, and they have. If they sell a certain ink configuration, there is no excuse not to include it in any test scenarios. So basically, they are bullshitting.

[David Hammond]

I agree, I appreciate the variables involved, but they’ve marketed the machine & ink, whilst being very selective with the truth.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by  David Hammond.

[Mark Johnston]

have you had the printer for long david?
can you not complain and exchange for a different type of printer or did it come from roland?

[David Hammond]

I was going to update this post on Friday, but got distracted.

Firstly, all credit to Jay at Signmaster who did escalate my concerns higher within Roland.

Roland have looked into the initial reports I made to them, and acknowledge there’s room for improvement, I also appreciate they’re getting inundated with support requests, often blaming the machine or inks, when in fact it could be media, or operator error.

All credit to Roland, they’ve put a couple of suggestions forward, and are actually working with us to try and resolve the issue. They suspect it may be a profile issue, whilst the generic profiles are acceptable in the lab in Japan, in the real world perhaps no so much. Some media manufacturers use the generic profile as a foundation for their media profiles, and whilst they may be happy with the print quality, there may be unexpected things like this.

The issue would probably have gone un-noticed if it wasn’t a print & cut job. As we’ve done a few vans for the same customer we could replicate it, ruling out cutters, blades etc.

Hopefully we’ll be making some headway this week 👍

[Chris Wilson]

Right am in the game.

VG3 comes out tomorrow. Wrong time to buy for me but hey ho.

So I am running versaworks 6. Orange and green ink with the extra magenta. Had the machine a week. Generic profiles are not the best. If I go on versaworks profile centre there is no orange ink option. Changed my region to USA and boom, loads appeared with correct ink configuration.

So far just been printing flat panels. In our normal routine so gassing out for 2/3 days on Avery MPI 2000 and some site signs on 3164. All seemed ok. Printed out first wrap on Arlon SLX on Tuesday. Laminated today. Started applying late today. Seems fine. No tackie-Ness and glides around as should. It is mainly green. 80% of it is green. Bright green.

Onto some print and cut stuff tomorrow. Done a little bit but engineer did terrible job Of setting the blade up. Tweaked this morning with a freshie and will see what like.

[David Hammond]

I’ve got Roland coming Thursday to profile our machine and inks (orange, green, and magenta too) so we should make some headway.

The colours are awesome, so I hope they can sort it out

[Chris Wilson]

Hey david,

How did things go with roland?

I’ve had a couple of weeks at it now. Vinyl does feel different. Not in a bad way. Almost heavier, maybe a wee bit more tacky.

We went with the VG2 and like yourself am struggling with the to get the cut pressures sweet. What I am finding is having the blade coming out the holder where it should be is fine for colour cut vinyl. 60g of pressure and it weeds lovely. However it doesn’t matter what I crank it up to for print and cut its not so good. So I am taking the blade holder out and wee tiny turn of more blade and at 185g it weeds beautifully again. But then even with the pressure right down to nothing for colour cut vinyl, it’s now taking the backing paper with it. It works. But it’s not ideal having to take it in and out all the time switching between jobs.

We don’t have this problem with our old VS. Once blade is set to right depth it’s just a case of adjusting the pressure to suit and off she goes for a couple of months till it’s new blade time. New machine is certainly faster, more streamlined and more accurate.

Did do a wee rush job yesterday. Which was heavy on red and black and left it for 6hrs. It felt fine. Looked fine. Cut fine going off my madness above.. maybe I’ll get a phone call in a few weeks to say otherwise, certainly not what I will be doing regularly but it was ok I guess.

[David Hammond]

The engineer who was coming has come down with Covid.

The engineer I did speak to suggested adjusting the blade depth so that it physically cannot cut through the backing.

Got a few biggish jobs on at the moment but they’re not print & cut, should have an engineer end of this week, or early next week.

[David Hammond]

**UPDATE**

Roland sent out their profiling engineer today with a view to adjusting the profiles.

Within 5 minutes of the engineer entering, he asked about the temperatures the print & drier were set to. These were set when the last engineer visited.

Looking at some of the prints we’ve produced, the orange peel effect, is the ink pooling on the surface, not drying before the next pass, and the ink just building – not good.

Even in some of the colour swatches we’ve printed, there appears to be a darker line around some colours as if the ink is running out to the edges.

Turned up the temps on the heaters, and that seems to be resolved, and we can assume would aid outgassing with less solvent sat on the surface.

I did ask Metamark tech support if they thought cracking the heat up would help, but told it makes little difference. It appears it ‘could’.

The issue with the cutting, the engineer clocked the vacuum wasn’t at its highest, so it set to Auto, and it should pull down the vinyl onto the bed.

Lots of test cuts straight off the machine, laminated, unlaminated, using different blades and holders.

Too early to tell if, or what the exact solution is, but we’re making progress.

Our workshop isn’t particularly warm, the temperatures of the heaters are higher than usual, but the media seems capable of handling it.

We’ll do further testing when I get time, see what the outgassing times 6hrs & 24hrs make, and see if I can find a definitive solution on the cutter, whether it’s a smart knife causing issues.

[David Hammond]

Well 2 weeks ago it all became too much for me. The issues persisted, totally unpredictable, and increasingly frustrating. Even the simplest of jobs were becoming hard work.

The final straw was having to reprint part of a wrap, after leaving it to outgas for 24 hours in the cupboard. Using 1600mm media, and a 1600mm core on the take up, the TU doesn’t align with the print bed, so it begins to chew up at the end, and sticking.

On my hands and knees wrestling with the take up, I bang my head on the drier unit. That was the final straw.

A few conversations with some members on the forum, and others in the industry who run HP latex machines, the trigger was pulled on a 335, that was installed today.

Of course no Orange and Green inks, but for 95% of our work it won’t be noticeable. The print quality out the Latex is incredible considering the lack of spot inks. there’s no outgassing concerns either.

The engineer watched me bemused, as soon as I was able to print off some of the problem print and cut files in this thread, exactly the same artwork, the colours were acceptable, laminated straight off the machine, then cut and the weeding was consistent.

An over reaction? Nope, shear frustration!!

Already I’m impressed with the HP, the speed it heats up, the quality, front loading, and the things you can do from the touch screen… Oh and HP certified media and profiles… It’s almost like they have the operator in mind.

[Colin Crabb]

HP Latex system is spot on, we moved from solvents when the 360 was first launched and have been very happy.

L700 series has matured now into a great machine thanks to the work HP do behind the scenes with firmware updates and talking to end users like myself, have been really impressed how they work on these improvements.

Sure all machines & systems have quirks, but for us, we’d not change ink types now. Don’t forget you can now ‘upsale’ the Greenguard certified inks alongside PVC free media.

[David Hammond]

Yes, I know all printers have their quirks, but so far I’m impressed and it’s evident that HP has put some thought into it.

With hindsight I should have gone and looked at the Roland and HP, had I seen the two side by side I’m fairly sure the HP would have won back then.
An expensive lesson.

[RobertLambie]

The engineer watched me bemused, as soon as I was able to print off some of the problem print and cut files in this thread, exactly the same artwork, the colours were acceptable, laminated straight off the machine, then cut and the weeding was consistent.

This is obviously the key point for you, David…
The exact same job file, vinyl etc. run in a different machine but without an outgassing period, laminated and contour cut straight away, and no cutting or weeding issues resulting in the manufacturing time being greatly sped up and the job completed at the quality expected. “Problem Solved”. 👍

An expensive lesson, Yes, but we don’t always make the right choices every time mate.
I have spent £85k on a UV flatbed, only for it to have to be returned 6 months later and refunded.
sh1t happens, but a positive is we educate ourselves Better, “the hard way”, and won’t make the same mistake twice. 😎

I am glad you are happy with your HP mate, and although there are pros and cons of every type of machine, HP latex certainly does tick a lot of boxes and as you have said. They appear to continually adapt what they do by listening to their customers.

[David Hammond]

Yes I’m aware the latex isn’t perfect, and it has its quirks, but as you say it ticks the boxes I need.

One additional, unexpected benefit, I’ve rearranged the workshop with the printer pushed up to the wall, giving me another 2-3ft of floorspace, which when there’s a van in the workshop is valuable.

[RobertLambie]

You could also SELL your old printer ink drying unit if you haven’t already given that with the sale of the machine.

[David Hammond]

Approaching 1 month with the HP, and I’m continuing to be impressed.

I didn’t think the instant cured ink would be a big deal, but I’m filling days/mornings/afternoons that would otherwise be empty, and work is flying out the door, but with very little stress.

The print and cut issues have vanished. No complaints from customers on quality (OK 1 but that was customer error not printer related!) Image quality, vibrancy, even solids all seem spot on but it’s still early days at the moment.

[RobertLambie]

Good to hear David and thanks for updating your post again mate. It is definitely a journey you have been on trying to resolve the problems.

It is great that your workflow is becoming stress-free and faster for you. I am sure you will continue to adapt your processes over the company months.

This may sound daft, but having had Roland machines of all sizes for so many years, the grey cloud that hung over me was “print head” damage! The downtime and cost really did make me dread it, not that it happened often, just when it did. 😣 Nowadays a damaged print head is changed in a few minutes by the operator or myself and costs about £100.
Back in the day that was £750 for one head and £200 call-out for the technician, so you could be out of the game for a day or two.

[David Hammond]

Agreed, we had to have one head changed on the Roland because one nozzle deflection resulted in being unable to produce a solid green. I know some argue that Solvent heads will last longer than Latex, but I know many latex users still running the heads the machine came with years ago.

I’ve also had my electric bill this morning, I know the latex gets hotter than the Solvent machines, but it does it in no time at all, our electricity bill is around £10 less than previous month’s, but that could be down to less usage but I’ll keep an eye on it.

[Hugh Potter]

Funny you should mention using the heads the machine came with, I know I’m not using the mahcine heavily, at all, but the machine is over 2.5yrs old now, had around 60 various carts through it and it still printing fine (touch wood!) on the original heads!

I had a wobble about 4 months ago when a few prints came out wierd, and I panic bought a full set of heads, but I did a load of head cleans and re-ran the old ripped files and they were all perfect, I probably didn’t even need to do the head cleans, it was the old ripped files that had gone weird! The new heads are just sat there waiting patiently!

[David Hammond]

Reassuring to hear, do the heads have a shelf life?

[Colin Crabb]

Official, Yes printheads have a shelf life for Warranty. No idea in real world, but have got 8litres through a black 381 printhead before!

Have just replaced a few 832 (latex 700) printheads that where 12-14months old, still going strong, we just had spares on the shelf with warrantys running down.

There’s a new HP latex coming out very soon, it should be the L600, a entry level machine in the new L700 + L800 format, but without the moving heat unit for loading, so watch out for deals!

[David Hammond]

Got a deal on the 335, I can see why HP are so popular, miles ahead of others.

[Martyn Heath]

As your talking about the latex, if i can jump in…. so, if the heads are cheap and easily replaced, there is a mainenance cartridge i believe that gets full and needs replacing….. what else is there that needs to be maintained or can be problematic? maintenance stations? pumps? not sure how different the guts are compared to a solvent.

[David Hammond]

Very little, oil the carriage but it’ll notify you of that. I’ve not heard of many issue with other hardware going wrong.

At least the HP shows you the usage of the cleaning unit so you can order one in ahead of time… whilst that stupid Roland didn’t on the cleaning solution and if it ran out you were stuck unable to print untilmit arrived.

[Martyn Heath]

ok, interesting. Are you cutting with it aswell or using a plotter side by side? Does hp have its own rip software?

[David Hammond]

I already had a graphtec FC8600-160, so wanted to keep that. The printer comes with a version of Flexi which is OK, however I would then need to start adding registration marks in illustrator to all the artwork, so I upgraded the RIP to Onyx, and it’s the bee’s knees.

Or you can get a deal with the HP which comes with a cutter (rebadged summa) which works with their Flexi version, very similar to how Versaworks does print and cut (but with a barcode) @Iain-Pearson has that set up, and possibly @Hugh-Potter

[Martyn Heath]

cool. Yes i am running onyx also, very smooth operation

[David Hammond]

Thinking of coming over to the dark side 😂

[Martyn Heath]

always keeping my options open 😁

[David Hammond]

Well, there’s the new 600 series out, and the option to print white on it too. Just look into how the white ink works compared to Solvent and you’ll see why HP are miles ahead, they deliver what user want not gimmicks.

I’m not sure what the other benefits are over the 300 series machines

[Hugh Potter]

I use the latex 365, As David says, just oil the carriage once in a while, wverything else is just consumables which it tells you are getting low, with time to spare.

I use onyx postershop 12 I think, good bit of kit. I also have a stand alone Summa cutter. I don’t think HP make a printer with plotting facility.

[David Hammond]

You’re correct HP don’t have a print & cut machine (they know what they’re good at) and instead package a Summa Cutter with the printer as a Print & Cut solution… and very good it is too by all accounts.

[RobertLambie]

It is HP latex, Onyx, Summa, and Signlab combo that we use.

[Colin Crabb]

Adobe – Onyx – cutting from onyx to Summa.

Printheads & maintenance cartridge is user serviceable parts with the machine informing you to perform tasks, oil track rods, clean platen etc.

L700 / 800 series has a few more items that are user serviceable (if under service agreement, you’ll get a authorization code when time) like the fan units.

Inks great, 300 series will pause for changing, 700/800 series has internal tank allowing change of ink while printing, with safeguard of not being able to print if supplies are to low when you send a job (pause mode).

White ink is very, very good, best I’ve seen, AND you take out and store the printheads when not being use, with the ink being pumped between to cartridges, therefore not wasting ink unlike the solvents machines.

Only word of warning, if you machines out of service contact or you purchase a second user 3 series – trailing cables!!!! they will require replacing at some point.