Your views on Monitoring Staff?

[Robert Lambie]

elite keylogger doesnt slow the machine down, but you do have to have some place for the info its gathering to reside. its 100% untraceable on any computer and even if someone knows about the software you can change the command password to un-hide it. also, if someone is searching for it, THE SEARCH is also logged… screen shots etc
we have a few ahrd drives in our server which the logs are stored on.
you simply delete them after a few months if its taking up allot of space.

there is actually a good few stealth loggers of computer activity. som better than others, as always… i tend to think the ones that you pay a bit for are much better than the free ones.

[Ruairi O'Boyle]

Thanks Rob

I think I have done a few jobs lately I know nothing about!! So I definetly dont mind paying for it. If you find it good that will do for me!

Thanks again by the way

[Phill Fenton]

I would install a CCTV system into the workshop. Tell the staff it’s to film any burglars that may break in. Then if any of them are too stupid to take the hint and continue stealing from you, you will have the evidence to prove their dishonesty should they try and make a claim for unfair dismissal after you have terminated their employment.

[Matty Goodwin]

Sounds like big brother to me..

If you don’t trust your staff, employ trustworthy staff.

I couldn’t work thinking other staff were ripping me off, the stress would kill me!

On the same note, spying or checking up on staff would kill me…

Management and work downwards..

[Matty Goodwin]

For Phill!

I worked for a big sign company who had the same problem. We worked 24hrs on a shift pattern due to a country wide contract. We all had keys to the workshop. Not only was CCTV installed but sound recordings also. All it did was get the staffs back up and one by one we left. Although there was the odd one ‘moonlighting’ it accused us all.

Innocent until proved guilty, but if there is evidence of wrong doing ask them. Mutiny amongst staff ‘aint good!

[Phill Fenton]

Matty

It’s difficult to get rid of staff (without proof of gross misdemeanor)) with all the employment laws that encumber small business

Alternatively – do as Matty suggests and get sued for unfair dismissal 😕

[Robert Lambie]

i understand what you say matt, but i dont trust anyone 100%.
im 39 years old and had the p**s taken out of my good/trusting nature far too many times to care what the odd staff member thinks of my ways of covering my back in business. if someone has a problem with video surveilance or computer surveleince then they are hiding something. simple as that… as an employer we pay them for their time, not for lining their own pockets or giving us half baked man hours…
i am not saying everyone is like this… i am just saying we do what we do to protect ourself. if the person does not like this, (and it is 100% legal) then they should look for a job elsewhere.

[Ruairi O'Boyle]

Phil, I probably will install CCTV at a later date but if I can monitor jobs sent to the printer then I can check what is being done the info this produces would do the same job as cctv.

Matty, I employ quite a number of people and I have always found given the chance a certain percentage of staff will not perform as you would like them for a large percentage of the time. I don’t see this as demotivating staff just protecting a business you have worked hard to set up! I am a very fair employer and have a good relationship with my staff but lately I have concerns over what my machines are being used for! Hence the need for monitoring. If an employee has nothing to hide this shouldn’t be a problem and if it is then they are there too long!!

Sorry if this sounds tough but if i took the lend of your car, drove all the fuel out of it and left it back empty you wouldn’t be best impressed! 😕 😕

[Phill Fenton]

quote Ruairi O’Boyle:

Phil, I probably will install CCTV at a later date but if I can monitor jobs sent to the printer then I can check what is being done the info this produces would do the same job as cctv.

I understand what you are saying – but if there are more than one member of staff using the PC how do you prove who is the culprit?

[Matty Goodwin]

For Rob..

Do you trust your partner/wife 100%?

I certainly wouldn’t set up CCtV to check up on her while I was at work! Saying that I wouldn’t with staff also.

If the trust issue is a problem then maybe the CCTV is a good option, but to me, personally. I’d take the honest approach.

I agree that if you had nothing to hide it wouldn’t be a problem, but again isn’t it big brother? Maybe cameras in toilets to stop staff using there mobiles in works time…

[Ruairi O'Boyle]

quote Phill:

I understand what you are saying – but if there are more than one member of staff using the PC how do you prove who is the culprit?

Indvidual logins for each user. The tracing software will pick up who is logged in. I use a much simpler method for our construction office which just picks up each persons internet history under their user account. A free piece of software called iehv.

[Robert Lambie]

Not the same thing Matt, yes, we could take it to the silly level… but why…

if you are 100% comfortable with your staff then that is great.
i am comfortable with mine and get on well with them. but it wont stop me taking precautions to cover myself. you may think i am playing big brother and over the top, i may think your naive, at the end of the day, we do what we think is best for us.

The question has been raised asking our own views and opinions, i have given mine. i am not saying you or anyone else is wrong. but you seem to be griped by my view.

[Shane Drew]

quote Robert Lambie:

i understand what you say matt, but i dont trust anyone 100%.
im 39 years old and had the p**s taken out of my good/trusting nature far too many times to care what the odd staff member thinks of my ways of covering my back in business. if someone has a problem with video surveilance or computer surveleince then they are hiding something. simple as that… as an employer we pay them for their time, not for lining their own pockets or giving us half baked man hours…
i am not saying everyone is like this… i am just saying we do what we do to protect ourself. if the person does not like this, (and it is 100% legal) then they should look for a job elsewhere.

Couldn’t agree more Rob.

My family employed 8 staff, upto 14 at one point, and we trusted them all without question. We treated them like family.

But we couldn’t account for missing stock, so we started to take notes on a friday night of the common items that seemed to be missing on monday morning. A simple trick was to put clear sticky tape at the top of the door to the frame. When we came in early on monday morning we found the tape broken, so we knew that someone was helping themselves.

That made us suspicious of everyone unfortunately because they all had keys.

So, I did a print out of the directory of our graphics database, instigated a log of jobs worked on during the day under the guise of a time and motion study, then compared the database directory at regular intervals.

We discovered a lot of new database entries on some evenings when the place should have been closed. These were not in the log either.

By some clever investigative work by our family, we discovered that two of our longest serving employees, and our most trusted employees for that matter, were doing there own work at night.

One guy went further. He approached us to sponsor ‘a mates off shore racer’ which we did. We signed the whole boat, with the only payment being our logo in a prominent position. It was not until he’d left the company that we found out that the boat owner had paid him over $3000 for the work we’d done on the boat. He turned out to be a real conman, but the point I make, if the staff feel they are worth more, or they think they have your confidence, and they know there are no checks in place, the temptation to ‘steal’ can be enough to see if they can get away with it. And if they don’t get caught, they do it again, and before you know it, it will be a regular occurrence.

I was shattered that the people I trusted abused that trust, but in truth they just thought they were entitled to some ‘extras’ and saw nothing wrong with it.

I’m of the opinion now, that if staff are uncomfortable with my security precautions, then they have something to hide. Simple as that.

Comparing the trust of your wife to that of staff is a no brainer. Its a silly argument. I trust my wife implicitly, but I can’t say that about people outside my marriage for the most part.

[Matty Goodwin]

Rob, I’m not gripped at all, especially not with you and your views.

I guess we all have different views and opinions, right or wrong.

Maybe I’ll look back and regret my trust one day but up until then, my guys are my ‘wing men’.

[Faisal Ali]

Extra surveillance won’t really sort out the management/organisational issues you have. I don’t believe long term you will be able to grow unless you have people you can trust as your employees.

What are the businesses you run and how many people are you employing? How many people in your signs office and what are their roles? How did you find these employees?

[Ruairi O'Boyle]

See the post below it hit submit twice!

[Ruairi O'Boyle]

Up until last year we employed approx 100 but we are at half numbers at the minute.

The sign business was always a sideline that I started through uni and as we were very busy with construction activities I just done our own vehicles, friends and locals.

As work is slower now I decided to invest a bit more time to the signs and bought a new print and cut set up along with employing a full time, experienced, sign maker.

The signs office is away from the main office and factory, where I spend most of my time, but I need to be sure what Is going on when I am away from either.

I have a bit of internet abuse in the office but the monitoring software put a stop to that! Without any ill feeling between staff- as they are in general they are mostly very good they just push the boundaries to see what they could get away with. When I produced the reports they were so embarrased they could hardly speak! Now I hear them telling the rest not to abuse the internet outside their lunch breaks!

Each to their own in terms of what way they approach staff – I would give mine the shirt off my back if they ASKED for it but god help them I they just assume they can take it!

Hopefully this reads ok as I am typing it on my phone which isn’t easy when I’m writing a big long rant!

[Richard Martin]

It is a tough one especially if you have staff that you don’t trust. CCTV and other measures are good but you can’t just go sticking CCTV up to monitor staff. Thanks to stupid arse regulations you need to ensure their contracts state something about monitoring etc etc, if it doesn’t you’ll need to get it changed first. The problem with that like matty said is the innocent will feel victimised, which can sometimes work in your favour as they will rat out the culprits, but it could also go the other way and they lose trust in you decide they don’t want to work for someone that doesn’t trust them.
You need to have trust in staff but you also need procedures in place that gives staff enough rope to hang themselves. Keylooging/screen logging would be your best way to go but you would also need to make sure everyone has proper log on procedures to the system as it would be very easy to catch the wrong person doing something they shouldn’t be doing.

[David Rowland]

i would like to setup cctv to watch the staff but it’s so wrong!
I have a few cameras monitoring corridors, entrances, exits etc for burglar reasons mainly but i learnt that there would be a backlash if we did go all the way. I would like to put up freeze frame cameras where they take a photo when a heat/movement sensor triggers so it just shows a photo whos in the room at that time. The main reason is for reception to be able to find an individual within the building, i dont want Live feeds back to reception as that is spying on your staff and if i did I would show each member of staff why, how and how the images is to be used.

It’s all about keeping the staff happy imo, they soon want to leave if they are intimidated and the last thing we want is staff setting up in competition against us.

And Key loggers, well need i say more. Bang goes privacy, staff need to do things sometimes that require a few moments so let them have it, as long as it doesn’t take up too much time then their is no problem.

[Ruairi O'Boyle]

Windows logons are simple – monitor it for a while to see who is doing something they shouldnt then pull all the staff in and tell them that a logging system is in place, its based on logins under individual usernames so it is crucial that they kept their lo gins to themselves. I dont think they will chance swapping logins!

I have plenty of staff i can trust but there is no one can tell me that even the best of staff don’t slack now and again!! Hell even I get off days and I am the boss! I dont intend it to be a new police force just a mechanism to ensure that I dont carry freeloaders.

As I said earlier each to their own but the more employees you have the more you need to monitor their output/productivity! And, in my opinion, the only person you can truly trust in business is yourself! Even the odd wife has run off with another man and half a business in the past! (Just in case anyone thinks I dont trust my wife then thats definitely not the case but it does happen!)

For those of you who operate swipe card systems – how do you find this works? More particularly to anyone who does not always start from base each day. i.e many of our staff go direct to site if that is a shorter journey.

[David Rowland]

few snags with win login ….

1: yeah it secure but its not… all our designers have swapped passwords as they can easily check each others email when they are away from the office.

2: people dont press <Windows> <Lock> button when they move away from the screen for a toilet break

3: i have 15 minute timers to lock out, but if it quicker then they type it in all the time and get annoyed, especially if on a phone call and too long it becomes pointless.

4: we have machine logins and same passwords downstairs for all other computers (cutters/printers), but they can actually access the same files as we can, so that screws logins up (except for email/private areas of system)

So as a network admin and a sign maker, i am trading more towards the sign maker side of me and relaxing my network admin side more these days, if a legal thing happened then it would be difficult to prove that person was on that computer at the time.

I guess are staff numbers of around 8-9, has something to do with it, everyone is working together more and that is what we are finding, we are rewarding more and they reward us. Look after your staff and they *Should* look after their job/employers.

[Richard Martin]

By the sounds of it your main concern is productivity rather than anything more sinister like theft etc. What about productivity sheets. You could simply explain them by your looking at cost saving/streamlining the business and you need to keep a record whats happening hour by hour, minute by minute. Staff simply record everything they do during the day including all down time. You should be able to see where people are slacking by the times logged for certain jobs. I don’t know the business your having problems with but if they are listing 2 hours for a job you know would take an hour its an area to look at, maybe they are slackers or maybe they just need some training.

As for keyloggers, I do agree with Dave. If I had to do I certainly would keep it to myself and I would have to have good reason to do it like theft etc. Even then when you caught them you would have to still try and find a way to catch them at it rather then present the key logs as that would cause a lot of dis trust that would go through the business like a tidal wave. Still not an honest method but would help you to look at areas that needed attention.

[Ruairi O'Boyle]

Dave,

You are 100% nothing is full right proof but as employer you need some sort of tool to use to discourage people from getting up to things they shouldnt be. As I said I dont intend to take it too far and I dont see it being needed as evidence etc. I gave our office girl 2hrs on the internet the other day to book the F1 at silverstone on my time. She’ll make it up some time when there is a rush on but she knows to ask as I can monitor the web activity of all our PC’s.

Its a bit of give and take on both sides but surely no one can advocate homers without the permission of the owner???

Richard,
in my scenario productivity and sinister are linked but the sinister bit really aggravates me! I think that when I am not here I have jobs going out that I know nothing about! Thats just not right in anyones book!

I would rather put monitoring in, tell all the staff and let them grumble for a while and eventually it will blow over. I wont be annoying them as long as they keep their nose clean! There shouldnt be a problem!!

Again I dont want to be a police force just get a fair days work for a fair days pay.

[Richard Martin]

Just make sure you look at the requirements for monitoring or you could face a constructive dismissal case, that’s all I am merely pointing towards.
You say "you think" jobs are going out that you know nothing about, is it just a hunch or are you noticing low stocks of items/excessive stock ordering compared with the output of items?

some good info on the business link sitehttp://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdot … 1074461782

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/ac … =RESOURCES

[Shane Drew]

My wife works at a place that has 300 staff.

The staff are blocked from social network sites, banned form sending and receiving personal mail, receiving pics or attachments. Only the managers have attachment rights, so if you need them to see a design, you must send it to the department head.

Answering or talking on personal mobile phone is also banned.

Phone records are checked at random, and the IT department also randomly check incoming and outgoing emails, and files stored on individual hard drives.

Most of the staff have been there for a long time and they know the rule. But, they still catch people with games or porn that have been saved on the drives.

I’m sorry, but familiarity breeds contempt, meaning the more you know something or someone, the more you start to find faults and dislike things about it or them. Before you know it, long term staff can decide they are being taken for granted and see nothing wrong in taking longer lunch breaks, starting later, finishing earlier…under quoting on a job for a mate… the list goes on.

It doesn’t hurt to let staff know that systems are in place to combat these things, as a protection to the honest staff. If staff feel its big brother, then perhaps they have a guilty conscience.

Its all about being fair and upfront though. That said, employers that are using security measures as a ‘fear’ enforcer are going to be a pain to work for anyway.

[Ruairi O'Boyle]

Richard

Thanks, having a brief look at those articles they will be quite useful and, like shane says, given that I intend to tell all employees about the monitoring in place from the outset they hopefully shouldnt be up in arms over it. With out reading through all the information yet I am pretty confident that if you have a "no personal use of PCs Policy" then monitoring shouldnt affect the employees human rights.

I see it does say that monitoring is ok to prevent crime so therefor if it is preventing "unknown homers" should also be acceptable.

[Robert Lambie]

i have a sticker on every computer monitor in our work stating that the computer has 24/7 monitoring software installed.

i have also told them that what the software does and that even if they use the software for things like ebay, bebo etc all their "passwords" get logged too!

i had a member of staff i knew wasn’t pulling their weight.
asked them into the office and outlined this and that. of course they denied everything. i then opened a window on my pc, randomly picked and day and opened the computers use history for that day. it pulls up screen shots, typed info, web URLs the lot… went something like…

09.00am computer is turned on.
09.05am bebo is accessed
09.15am ebay is accessed

it went on and off like this for nearly 4 hours in a single day.
yes, their chin did hit the floor….
but where would i have been without the monitoring software? it would have been their word against mine! and we all know how much the law is in favour of the employee!
thats potentially 25 hours of paid work for someone messing around on the Internet!

do not get me wrong, i don’t go in monitoring anything on a daily or even weekly basis. but should something happen or should i need to check up on something, need proof, whatever… its there!

[Jason Davies]

Would you tolerate/be happy with them doing this if it is slow or if they are multi-tasking. We allow quite a bit of flexibility with personal online stuff as long as they don’t take the proverbial and the work is done.
Seems to work, not keen on the big brother bit.

[Gert du Preez]

I have a novel way of preventing my staff to moonlight on the side.

I simply ALLOW them to do "privates"!!

There is only 2 staff members (me aside) who can operate the printers / cutters. The rest have to ask me to cut their private jobs for them!! Sometimes I charge them the cost price of the matrials used, but if they rock up from the workshop with a piece of offcut in the hand, I let them have the job for free.

The only rule is that they have to ask/inform me about the job.

I went as far as giving one of my employees a small vinyl cutter ( Roland Stika !!), an old heatpress and a few of my old silkscreens, squeegees etc. This young lad had a very tough time. Single parent, and he was taken out of school in the 9th grade so he could work and help support his siblings. Yet he is friendly, eager, and he loves making signs and screenprinting. Since he lives in the neighbouring town (as most my employees, and myself do) he does not "compete" against me. For the "price" of a few pieces of redundent equipment and offcuts I can maybe help keep his younger brothers and sisters in school.

Humans are "response based" creatures. Treat them like thieves, and they will steal. Trust them, and they become trustworthy.

[Matty Goodwin]

:yeeha:

[Neil Speirs]

quote Gert du Preez:

Humans are “response based” creatures. Treat them like thieves, and they will steal. Trust them, and they become trustworthy.

So what about Politicians, councilors, bent police, store managers? all trusted positions but you still regularly read about them being caught with their hands in the till 🙄

Some people will rob you blind and some won’t

[Shane Drew]

quote Neil Speirs:

quote Gert du Preez:

Humans are “response based” creatures. Treat them like thieves, and they will steal. Trust them, and they become trustworthy.

So what about Politicians, councilors, bent police, store managers? all trusted positions but you still regularly read about them being caught with their hands in the till 🙄

Some people will rob you blind and some won’t

:lol1:

Thought the same thing myself Neil 😉

[Gert du Preez]

Exactly my point, Neil,

We treat politicians (and used car dealers….) like thieves and crooks, hence they tend to react in a like fashion….

Look at your own words. Does not seem that you trust politicians??

In any event, I was talking about trust "from the top down" (boss to subordinate) whereas with politicians the scenario is "from the bottom up" (subordinate to boss)

[Ruairi O'Boyle]

Gert,

There are good and bad and I do agree that sometimes trust people can instill responsibility but if you dont have protection methods you leave yourself open for all sorts.

You wouldnt go a way for the weekend leave your front door open and put up a sign saying you’re gone for a few days! Instead you would lock the doors and turn on the burglar alarm and if very advanced check the cctv from your hotel!

I dont see the difference in protecting your business and your home, bearing in mind it is the reason you have a roof over your head!

[Robert Lambie]

Gert, we allow our staff freebies for themselves, "if they ask" and within reason… we give heavily discounted prices and going through the proper business procedure’s for goods for their friends, "if they ask to do a job for them"… it is then up to them if they want to charge the Friend more and make something out of it for themselves…
this is all fine and well when they are up front and honest. but when they don’t?
there is nothing wrong in protecting yourself in case the situation arises.
also… this is not all about blatant theft of goods, what about what i mentioned earlier on? someone being paid to work on the computer but spending most their time on bebo, ebay etc browsing the net?

i mean no disrespect here, but i fail to believe that those trustworthy employers here walk around with a proud smile on their face watching their staff work away merrily.

at the end of the day…
Your agreement with your member of staff is:-
that you will pay them the amount agreed for the hours they work.
their agreement with you;-
is that they will "work" those hours to the best of their ability in return for their pay.

now lets say Friday comes and through "no fault of your own", you do not have money in the bank because… business has been slow, various companies have not paid yet, an order didn’t go out on time and the job was canceled… any reason… but you cant pay the full wage to your employee that has just taken on a mortgage or who’s wife has just had a kid or whatever…. watch that same employee turn on you once YOU don’t keep to your end of the deal!

you will be hung, drawn and quartered before you know it!

[Shane Drew]

I’m guessing your staff are just happy to be employed Gert, because your scenario, although admirable, doesn’t apply to just about any employer I know.

[Ian Johnston]

I like a lot of other on here found out the hard way.

"YOU CAN’T BE A FRIEND, AND BE A BOSS"

[Neil Speirs]

quote Ian Johnston:

“YOU CAN’T BE A FRIEND, AND BE A BOSS”

Spot on!

[Neil Speirs]

”

quote Gert du Preez:

Exactly my point, Neil,

We treat politicians (and used car dealers….) like thieves and crooks, hence they tend to react in a like fashion….

Look at your own words. Does not seem that you trust politicians??

In any event, I was talking about trust “from the top down” (boss to subordinate) whereas with politicians the scenario is “from the bottom up” (subordinate to boss)

How do we treat politicians like crooks?

[Richard Martin]

quote Neil Speirs:

”

quote Gert du Preez:

Exactly my point, Neil,

We treat politicians (and used car dealers….) like thieves and crooks, hence they tend to react in a like fashion….

Look at your own words. Does not seem that you trust politicians??

In any event, I was talking about trust “from the top down” (boss to subordinate) whereas with politicians the scenario is “from the bottom up” (subordinate to boss)

How do we treat politicians like crooks?

When was the last time you heard anyone (who isn’t mentally disabled or married to a politician) say they trust one impeccably??

[David Rowland]

we have a positive attitude to work, we are now in a shape that people are paid well, receive bonuses, some have had a bit more (not posting here) and those who have not pulled their weight are no longer with us in one way or another. We want to retain those who work with us now, we dont loose them, so we give slack but facebook and bebo is blocked at the router (except lunch times)

[Andrew Blackett]

You’re too soft Dave, I dont allow facebook and the like at anytime even though the router would allow "off times" – if someones sat at lunchtime browsing these type of sites it normally leads to "oh look at this" type mentality.

Andy

[Peter Normington]

quote Dave Rowland:

we have a positive attitude to work, we are now in a shape that people are paid well, receive bonuses, some have had a bit more (not posting here) and those who have not pulled their weight are no longer with us in one way or another. We want to retain those who work with us now, we dont loose them, so we give slack but facebook and bebo is blocked at the router (except lunch times)

Dave, how do you come to decision about the ones that are not pulling their weight, without monitoring them?
and then how do present the evidence, if they have been taking advantage?
Peter

[Shane Drew]

quote Ian Johnston:

I like a lot of other on here found out the hard way.

“YOU CAN’T BE A FRIEND, AND BE A BOSS”

well said, so true.