woudl i apply etch wet onto large windows?

[Phil Halling]

I’d do it wet with no paper. How come you cant use steps etc. ?

[Peter Normington]

Hugh,
first thing to do is learn how to use a step ladder 😉
Then, if I were you I would do wet, no tape and cut to size less about 3mm, this will alow the fluid to escape.
What etch are you using? does it have a paper or film backing?
A good tip for window film with film backing is to spray the widow, put the film on upside down (non adhesive side to the glass) You can then remove the backing, spray the adhesive side remove and reverse it onto the window.
Dont try this with paper backed film though.

I would be reluctant to do this dry, unless you have gained enough experience to be confident with the client helping,

Just a thought if the shop owner was an ex sign guy, how come he has asked for you to fit, Probably hasnt done windows himself?

Peter

[Robert Lambie]

i would suggest you do it wet hugh. personally, ide advise using rapid-tac, but if you cant use whatever…

me? do i even need to say it?

DRY!

😉

[Hugh Potter]

cheers guys, i think it’ll have a paper type backing Pete,

cant use a step ladders because of the display area, there’s a low stage which isn’t dismantlable (made up word !), i have to stand n the edges cos the centre isnt supported ! i’ll see if i can take a big chunk of ply to spread the load maybe,

[Richard Urquhart]

hi mate
i did 3 windows like this the other day no application paper i use mac tac frosted etch vinyl
the vinyl was hung up in one long strip and the backing removed then i applied rapid tac 2 to complete piece then with some one at the other end slid the vinyl in to position
it went very well ,make sure there is no fluff around or any dirt another thing when removing the backing mind you don’t mark the vinyl it will not come out !!
i went back to the job 2 day later and it looked real nice and no trace of application fluid

[Peter Normington]

Hugh,
I cocked up last week, doing a window in an awkward position. thing is, never attempt to do anything unless you can reach comfortably, you will have problems if you can’t. Always include in the job enough to cover access, whether that means moving stuff or scaffolding. otherwise make sure the client is aware that he is responsible for making the window accesible
Peter

[Robert Lambie]

this being the case mate, before you start, tell them this isn’t perfect fitting conditions so they will have to realise the finished job may not be “perfect” that’s not a cop-out, but reality. if you cant fit it under the right working conditions, why should you guarantee a perfect job under these circumstances.

oh yeah, sorry…. i use the paper app tape too…

[Peter Shaw]

I would do this wet with no application tape using water and baby shampoo mixture.

How do you guys that do dry applications deal with the milky effect that the glue show through which I think is minute bubbles of air?

Peter

[Peter Normington]

peter,
I think you are more likely to get the Milky effect done wet. I dont reccomend home brew app fluid, would always use a proprietory fluid like Overlay from cherwell. It dries much quicker and is also good for prepping the substrata. It also is formulated to “dry out” into the adhesive
If you must use anything else, just use distilled water. any soap, is only added as a wetting agent, i.e. to destroy the surface tension of the water, so it spreads in a film, rather than droplets
Peter

[Hugh Potter]

hmmmm ! lots to mull over ! i’m tempted to go the wet route still, i would like to do dry, but due to the possible difficulties in application, ie, i cant guarantee keeping it off the glass if ‘m trying to watch where i step, i think this will be tricky,

i think i will go the route of cutting it slightly smaller than the actual window size, just a few mm, and use app tape to be sure to hold it right, if i can get a reliable hinge on it i may well go dry, i’m just a little worried at fluffing it ! although i’ve priced 3x the vinyl cost (which will give me an easy £35pr hr if done in less than 2hr… ontop of mat’l costs), i cant really afford to screw it !

the only reason it’s going up is to hide the light fittings o the ceiling from outside view, but he didnt wanna go with regular vinyl cos it would block the light !

can ya tell i still havent made up my mind yet ? 😳 funny really, cos i’ve not been worried over any application for a good number of jobs now !

[Peter Normington]

Hugh. etch will still block a load of light, if you need to block the view without to much light loss you need to use a mirror or copper type film, not vinyl, its much more expensive, and is nearly always applied wet.#

Peter

[Peter Normington]

Not the only supplier but the site will give you lots of info on window film
http://www.llumar.co.uk/home.html

[Hugh Potter]

thanks Pete, i’ll check it out,

[Robert Scullion]

If the main reason for installation is to hide lights etc from outside but still allow as much light as poss in via the glass you would be better using a window film, not a vinyl.

Anglian Window Films do matte films for flat glass, mainly for this sort of thing, films like the matte white will stop you seeing in, unless an object is directly against the glass, then you will see the outline, but still allow 77% light transmission through the glass. When fitted it looks similsr to etched vinyl.

Anglians number is 01603-420574 if it helps

Bob

[Hugh Potter]

thanks Bob, useful info, this time around tho i’ll be using etch, as mentioned, the customer reckons he used to own a sign shop, and this is what he wants, so i’ll do that ! thanks anyway. Hugh

[Peter Shaw]

quote Peter Normington:

peter,
I think you are more likely to get the Milky effect done wet. I dont reccomend home brew app fluid, would always use a proprietory fluid like Overlay from cherwell.
Peter

Thanks for your reply, Peter, but I think your wrong about the milky effect. Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

As far as home brew app fluid is concerned, I have been using it for around 16 years!! It works perfectly well as tap water with a little washing up liquid but is best with baby shampoo. And its so kind to my skin!!

I used Overlay when it first came out and it was s**te. I hope the formulation is better now. Rapidtac is the only app fluid I particularly liked but don’t see any real benefit in paying loads for it when “home brew” costs next to nothing.

Peter

[Robert Lambie]

peter Shaw, you can get a certain amount of whitening when applied dry, but i think that comes down to the type of etch you are using. most cases is like peter has said, arises most when wet with certain adhesives.
i say you can get the whitening when done dry, but that’s “only” because it happened to me many years ago when etch just came out. that said, i thought why has this happened and returned the next day with new panels. only to find the windows perfect, no white blotches.

i wont go into the wet dry scenario on this one as i am sure everyone knows my views.
however, if a home brew i would suggest water only. i know the whole bit about add tea spoon this and that but “to me” this stays trapped beneath the vinyl once the water has dried out. i think because you use so little its never noticeable even up close, but its there. i think if water wasn’t enough on its on to prevent tac then… then…. (ill shut up :lol1: )
rapid tac is much more expensive and is another glorified fluid, but i have tried it and did find it to work well, all things considered. i think rapid tac beats most others because it has an additive to stimulate/activate the glue to adhere, where soap and bubbles, you have to Wait till it drys out naturally before an real adhesion takes place.

[Hugh Potter]

i use a prespray/app fluid i buy from my local supplier where i get my boards etc, i guess it mus be sprit based cos it does evaporate, i find i’m using it ess and less now, it’s about £14 per 2.5L can, much cheaper than rapi-tac, and i dont find much difference tween the two, i tried rapid tac and wasnt keen on it really, personal taste i guess !

[Peter Normington]

Rob said most of what I was going to
But…
I’m a dry guy, but I do use overlay as a cleaner, prep. and on the odd occasion that I need a wet application, (normally it a big bit and I do all apps single handed) I can cheat with overlay, and it will get me out of trouble, Price is not an issue, it takes so little, 5 litres last for ages.
But after using baby shampoo for 16 yrs, Who can argue?

[Adrian Hewson]

We always fit wet for etch, we have a 22M linear window area to front of our building, windows are over 3M high so at least 66 sq metres, we didnt do them ourselves (had them tinted) vision graphics came in and fitted them wet water with baby shampoo (johnsons), these are windows, they are massive, we look out of them every day, there is not a bubble or streak anywhere

Make your own mind up.

I like them wet

Regards Adrian

[Peter Normington]

Etch vinyl and widow film are chalk and cheese, window film is always fitted wet. johnson are a big supplier of window film. not to be confused with the people who make baby products.
Peter

[Robert Lambie]

i have fitted more than 200 large & small windows for royal mail around central scotland. over 50 of those were in their head office in edinburgh city centre. minimum size aboat 3ft x 4ft biggest about 5ft x 10ft, all done with bomb proof window tint, from i think you call them “bronzwick?” anyway… everyone was fitted with fresh water, YES “wet”.
window film, like peter says, is completely different from etch vinyl. window film is a multilayer polyester film with a water activated adhesive. “bit like a stamp” you cannot fit window film dry!
etch on the other hand, you do what you feel most comfortable with. 😀

[Hugh Potter]

one of those days !!

did windows this am, started at 7am 😥 , dry wasn’t an option here as there was nowhere for the hinge to go !

did smaller window over the door (easiest to get to) with no probs, sprayed window, peeled off backing half way on the floor and did with no mask tape, trimmed to edge…. perfect !

did biggest window next, peeled back about 4-500mm at narrow end, sprayed onto adhesive, then got up and sprayed window, 2.4m was a pain, eventually the customer held one end while i peeled off the backing completely, and i eventually made a good job of it, access was a bit of a bugger, though i was just able to get the steps in on the slightly wobbly stage !

smaller window…Grrr, what a tit ! my ruler is only 1m long, measure the metre, added the 160mm and marked it, but i must’ve drawn the cut line on the 1m marks 😳 … too small for window, Lucy dropped of the remainder of the 1200 wide, but it was short on depth by 150mm 😥 , so i suggested to customer that to make good temporarily i’d do two panels, free of charge, and come back and do the rest, shoulda just left and done it in one, the first bit layed bad as i applied it with not enough fluid to reposition, as i went to lift the end it ripped, so the infill section now had to be 420mm wide, cut it out and then noticed a small gash (3x7mm) near one edge, not enough left to recut another bit ! customer said do it anyway for now, so i did, joined up 99% perfect, access to this smaller window was a pig, and it was hard to square up to the window to apply, hence i think, some of the trouble applying, gorra go back next weds as son as i have some more etch delivered and refit that window, what a day !

i’ll pop a couple of photo’s up later when i download from the card, on the long length the initial 400mm i peeled back seems a different colour (more milky), but i guess thats cos i pre wet that bit due to its tendency to wanny curl back on itself, with any luck it’ll be the same colour when it dries n a day or two !!

wish i’d stayed in bed !!

[Carrie Brown]

Oh dear Hugh …… well at least you stuck with it and yet again its all experience for you on the big learning curve. Hopefully it will go a bit easier next week when you go back?

[Hugh Potter]

just one of those things Carrie ! i’ve done five signs this afternnon while a customer waited in the workshop for me, perfect !

part of the problem i think, with the window that was screwed up, is access, to many things to think about, balance on ladder which has one foot right on edge of the curved stage (and slipped off once causing a profanity to echo round the shop… much to everyones amusement 😥 i dint find it amusing holding vinyl in one hand and an old redundant electrical cable (first thing i grabbed) to stop me going over in the other ! )

anyway, i’ve started looking now to see if i can buy a small platform or smaller step ladder, would make life alot easier.

[Nicola McIntosh]

sorry to hear about that hugh….but as carrie said, you’ll learn from it, and good on you for posting about it and being honest 😀

nik

[Hugh Potter]

cheers nic !

[Peter Shaw]

Here’s hoping the HSE doesn’t read this forum !!!

[Hugh Potter]

aye ! it wasnt an ideal situation, i’ll be making sure i got a smaller stepladder next time, i’d be interest to know the hse’s stand on this job anyways, there would be no possible way to get any kind of scaffold or platform where i had to do the job !

[Cammy – Europoint Display]

Hi there,
Vinyl with an emulsion(water based) adhesive will go milky when applied wet as the water will mix with the adhesive and change its structure , it wont harm its adhesive properties which is why some economy films have an emulsion acrylic adhesive , to avoid the milky effect use a solvent acrylic adhesive as solvent and water don’t mix !!

[Hugh Potter]

thank you Cammy, i’m pretty sure its solvent / spirit based,

[Hugh Potter]

phew…. hard work removing vinyl from glass !! me arms were knackerd by the time i was ready to re-apply the new ! went without a hitch though, bought a new smaller stepladder, much easier access, and soaked the window before laying it on, done in about 5 minutes ! wish it had gone as smooth first time around !

top tip…. when removing large flood vinyl, it’s easier n your arms if you cut the vinyl into 4″ verticle strips on the glass, much easier to remove a thin strip than 18″ wide sections !!