Which way to jump?

[Robert Lambie]

Hi mate..
I have been looking for the exact same thing.
For what you need I would suggest going for what we plan to buy.
The grenadier, does everything you just mentioned and I think its about 54” or 60” wide. Can’t remember exactly the width now…
Anyway with the new rip package they supply all in it’s 21 thousand.. For £25000 you can get the same size top spec laminator thrown in..
I received sample prints on vinyl.. Top-notch stuff… I was very happy. 😉

[Lorraine Buchan]

Rob,

Have you looked in to the offer on the grenadier with regard to buy two sets of ink a month and get the machine free?? I did post about this some time ago, but i still can’t get my head around how much printing your’d have to do to make this a viable option.

[Robert Lambie]

not sure lorraine maybe the ink costs £3000 each 😆

where did you see this.. was it on a site?

come to think of it was it not buy one machine get another free or lease one get another… 😕 🙄

[Lorraine Buchan]

lol nope it was definately inks, but….. you could be right about the cost i’ll see if i can find the thread

[Lorraine Buchan]

Here we go:

https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=3526

Rodney Says its a rebadge roland solijet,

I never did get that demo, in the end. I’m sure it was re-jogged in my memory as it was in this issue of Sign-link mag, possibly a company called print max.

[Roger T]

Welcome –

I’m in the same boat as you, have money to spend and trying to decide on machinery, same critiria also…!! funny that! 😀

Not sure about either eco solvent or solvent, will be viewing a Mutoh Rockhopper 2 (eco) shortly!! matched with a Summa T1400 cutter…

good luck, theres too much choice out there…!! the jungles deep…! (?)

[3 wise monkeys]

thanks for all your imput..

Robert – where are you thinking of getting your machine from???

Can anyone confirm that eco-solvents are better / worse then normal solvents????

Like most companies we really cant afford to buy a machine and find out 3months later that we should have got a different machine!

rick

[Roger T]

Hi Rick,

I sort of know a sales guy (motorbike buddy) who works for Andersons who are a mactac suppliers mainly, they seem to be offering a good package, tho Im am awaiting 1st view of full costings, then demos… I Know Andersons as they were one of my main suppiers back when I used to do stickers years ago… always had a good rapor with them, which helps I hope! ha!

There is a digital print show on next week I am visiting (on 27th) with the sales guy in Olympia, London…thats all I know about the show at present! I can find out more later if you wish? its on next week for 3 days (25th, 26th, 27th)…hope that helps… 😮

[3 wise monkeys]

roger,
that would be excellent. Any info you’ve got about the show is great,
please please let me know.

thanks

rick

[Lorraine Buchan]

The Grenadier is in this months sign-link page 61

quote :

Buy just 2 sets of ink per month & get a complete Gredadier printing system FREE!

[Rodney Gold]

Mutoh , Mimaki etc use the same inks as the Roland as well as the same Epson printheads (tho the Mimaki JV4 uses a head a generation above) , so what you get from one , you will get from another – the major differences are RIPS and motion systems and the machine itself.
But at the end of the day they all produce similar results , are similarily priced etc etc – either you buy a Beemer or a Merc , chev or ford and so on.
I have an Soljet and am very happy with it , does fantastic work and is versatile and is almost maintenance free – best is to take what you want printed to the various dealers and see how easy it is to do and compare apple to apple and paers to pears quality wise.
There is a thread here re the Versacam prints rubbing off- if the versacams prints rub off , so will all the other makes using the same inks and heads (I dont really want to talk about that thread , cos I feel there is something very wierd going on – non users who are testing are having this “problem” and users that actually run the machines not – make of that what you will!!)
As to solvent vs Eco solvent – solvent inks are toxic , you cannot run the machine in unventilated space and transportation of the inks is a problem , latent and exisiting legislation is too – apart from subjecting yourself and your workers to something that might cause a long term hazard – Essentially a solvent will “dissolve” the pvc and enable the ink to penetrate it or etch it so the inks “bite” , the soljet uses heat to enhance this and “open the pores” of the pvc ???
Whatever you do and however you print , mechanical and chemical attack are bad news – if you want to give a customer ANY guarantee on logevity – you have to laminate or protect the print in one way or another if it is remotely susceptible to this – so whatever printer you buy , you are in the same boat. In terms of a solvent “disolving” there is another innate problem and that is dot gain , IE the dots that head lays down “spread” to adjoining dots – this either reduces resolution seriously or makes the printer so non linear , its impossible to profile – this is dependant on the dot size , strength of solvent and media – kinda like printing on blotting paper to put it simply. True agressive solvent machines might be able to print on more substrates , but they wont print as well.
Should you want a machine to pump out a trillion sq ft per day of billboard , the soljet or the other machines arent really for you – they dont have the thruput or the ability to print fast enough without some banding , the lowest resolution of a soljet is 450 x 360 – variable droplet tech and the extra 2 inks make the apparent resolution higher. ALL these machines suffer from banding problems when running low res high speed prints – so take the max output figure quoted as a little pie in the sky , cos the output at that speed is not acceptable for high quality work.The only time I have had good results at really high speed is on banner.
No digital printer is a press and play machine , should you want to get into digital printing , be prepared for a steep learning curve , a lot of wasted ink , plenty wasted media etc – if you DONT fiddle with profiles etc you will NEVER get to know the capabilities of the rip , the machine etc etc.
What option IS there but inks – Thermals will blow you out the water with price of consumables.
You can make a lot of money with a digital printer – leasing a 25k machine shouldnt cost more than 850 a month , cheaper than an employee and that translates to 40 a day or so , youyr cost of print wont be more than about gbp 1.00 per sq ft and you would be making about gbp 2-4 per sq ft , you need to print about 20 sq ft a day to break even , you can print up to 1000 sq ft a day , but realistically , 30 sq m (300 sq ft) is a very comfortable figure – small decals can sell easily for gbp 10 pper sq ft.
I repeat , digital printing is NOT signmaking , there is a paradigm shift – you move far more into advertising etc and you deal with different clients , your skills a a vinyl cutter are to a large extent not that relevant , even design skills need to be looked at – you are dealing with PRINTING and COLOUR here and have production capabilities far more extensive than you have ever had —- you will be dealing with a different breed of clients and will have to know more about file formats and colour transforms etc than they will!!!!!
It’s the way of the future and those that kick and scream and are luddites regarding this – well – they are lost!!!
It’s very similar to property – if you never make the commitment to owning a home , whatever the condition , you will never be able to afford that dream house , you might take a beating , but you write it off to school fees 🙂

[Rodney Gold]

Lorraine , the grenadier is going to use 2.5 more magenta and 1.8 more yellow than ANY other cart , so if you have to buy a complete inkset at around $75 per cart (x12) and you cant buy individual , you will be – to put it bluntly – screwed. the soljet (grenadier) does NOT use every cart equally . Find out the price of a complete inkset – one inkset SHOULD print round 240 sq meter (2400 sq ft) at worst , thats 5000+ sq ft a month , ie 500 sq meters a month and about 25 sq meters a day – thats a LOT of digital printing if you arent well established – cos at best resolution , you can do about 2-3 sq m per hour at max!!!!

[Lorraine Buchan]

Rodney,

Thanks for that info, it puts it in to more perspective when you have the figures like that, I myself am not looking into the digital print market for real at the moment, but i like to try and keep up for when the time comes to dive in.

But as your figures show to make the inksets deal worth while you’d need to be churning out solidly 8 hours a day 5 days a week. unless you were happy for your ink supplies to build up – or you could sell them on.

[Roger T]

Hey Rodney,

Thanks for that very informative usefull info… I know it will be a big learning curve, but its something I’ve always wanted to do & master!! My window tinting will aid the costs in the beginning I hope… the road starts early next year!! 😮

[Peter Richardson]

I have been Digital Printing for 8 years now mostly for the indoor market,
we have a wide range of printers and bought a 74 inch Grenadier two monthes ago. I can highly recomend it, you woul want the 54inch print and cut version which would come within your budget. They have 2 inks for this printer I would recomend the Screen inks as they are more agressive, and print on to a wider range of media.

[3 wise monkeys]

rodney,
thanks for the advise.

So are the soljet (sc504-ex) and the grenadier the same machine?

is it good enough to ‘grow into’? What i mean is we spend between £700 and £1500 per month with a bureau. This is mostly company logos and large 6ft square external posters and without promoting imagery.
Once we have a machine and start activly pushing will the machine be upto the task?

I’m not trying to sound funny in anyway but want to buy the correct machine for our needs and really have no idea what above machines are capable of in terms of speed and quality!

I’m hoping that having a machine on site will allow us to move into slightly different areas once we’ve started to learn it.

cheers
rick

[Peter Richardson]

Hi Rick

The Grenadier is a modified soljet. I looked at nearly all the wide format solvents for quite a while and purchased the Grenadier for its speed, quality. We have Encads, Xerox X2 and a Zund flatbed the Grenader compliments this line up very well and as for market development I think it is a good machine to grow with. BP will be launching 2m and 3.5m Uniform branded machines at the next sign uk, if you can wait. The main issue with printers is support and I am impressed with the support that BP give. The level you are printing at at the moment is enough to install your own. Dont for get a basic laminator, it makes mounting alot quicker.

ian

[3 wise monkeys]

ian,

thanks for that.

What laminator would you recommend and how much should we budget to spend?? Is there anything we should look / be weary of in a laminator ?

thanks

rick

[Peter Richardson]

We have Neschen and Seal machines, they are anything from £7000 to £15000 for basic hot machines. I would have a look at the BP Uniform branded ones as they are more cost effective for lower throughput. If you are only going to be mounting vinyl all you need is a cold one. A heated top roller can be helpfull though. I do know of a nearly new Neschen 1600 wide heated top and bottom, but its not going to be that cheap, however they do last nearly forever.

[3 wise monkeys]

thanks again for the advice ian

i owe you one!

rick