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where has all the neon signage gone?
Where has all the neon gone?
In my area neon has slipped away and there’s virtually no signs with neon components in them.
From my own experience getting neon at a reasonable price is nigh on impossible in my region- even window strips are top money so this might be why?
Do you use a lot of neon? Is the cost of neon not working out for you in your quotes? Would you be using more neon if you could get it at a reasonable price?
I’m just wondering why neon has started dying out a bit?
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36 Replies
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Think the trouble is too many foamex brigade about, knocking signs out for a oner… Most people don’t care what their signs are like, as long as its cheap
Simon
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yes, Simon is right and to be honest the time it takes to sort out Neon, our design department rather not bother. LED has had an impact on Neon a little as it lasts longer, but Neon is nice and bright
The only Neon we sell often is pre-packaged “OPEN” etc
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Thanks for the replies lads,
The reason I’m asking is I’m trying to work out whether or not it’s worth setting up our own neon shop- I’ve been offered a complete setup for a reasonable price so it’s a question of do we don’t we and I’m finding it hard going making a decision either way?!
As you say Simon the daft pricing for most signwork is probably the biggest problem I’m going to come up against and I can’t afford to have manufacturing equipment sitting around gathering dust.
I know we’d use neon more if we could get the price right- people do ask for it quite a bit but the costs usually have em running for the hills 🙁 it’s a question of whether or not I can generate enough interest to make it all profitable?
Need to think long and hard on this one me thinks- not an easy decision.
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A mate of mine was a neon bender for a BIG sign co. for 16 years, now he works at Tescos! I think he said that all the internal illumination that was previously done with neon is now made with LEDs. It’s a great shame – there’s nothing like a good neon sign but I can’t think of one in my town.
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people dont seem to care much about signs like has been said. but in all honesty… the apopearance of a sign/shopfront for almost anything but especially food places is what makes me walk on or walk in…
signs play a vital roll on putting a face to a business… if you look cheap from the outside, more than likely inside the product and how it is run isnt much better.
fast food places seem to be shaping up if you get a good one. looking more toward stainless builtups with “some” neon. wether it be to creat halo letters or trmmings.
i love neon, but i have seen some bad ones in my time too… the biggest problem i have with a complete neon sign is it looks terrible during the day. very unclean looking. good if your a nightclub only open at night but night and day food places… 😕 -
Rob,
That’s what I really don’t get either. Everyone judges by appearances- whether they realise it or not. Why these people go to all that effort of setting up their shop, restaurant or whatever and then right at the last bit- which is probably one of the top 3 things they need to get right- they settle for some pile of old tat that makes their shop/ business look at best amateurish and at worst screams “don’t bother coming in here”.
If I see a nicely turned out shopfront I’m always tempted to have a closer look- the horrid looking ones just don’t appeal at all and you find yourself thinking they must be a cheap business cos they look like they have done everything on the cheap.
LED’s are taking over to some extent but I’m finding that they are a pain to layout to overcome dark spots and reflection of the diodes which look plain nasty. I also find that LED’s aren’t as good is medium light conditions- some neon is clearly visible during the day- LED’s aren’t anywhere near this yet.
I’d like to do be doing neon for channel letters and border highlights and things- I don’t like pure neon signs either as they look very out of place in daylight. I’m still looking into the whole subject but from what I’ve found so far is that the consumables like tubes and such are surprisingly good value for money. I’m trying to figure why all the quotes I have for trade supply have been so stupidly high- all that happens with these is customers who were looking for neon just drop the whole subject and go for something else- which is a bit of a shame. Plus I’ve usually spent a few hours faffing about getting quotes from the few neon people I can find- who are always pretty slow getting back to you.
Do you think if the prices were a bit more competitive people would be more willing to use neon? My feeling is that the demand is getting smaller as the number of suppliers get smaller which means the prices are going higher as there isn’t the competition there is for other parts of the signmaking spectrum- what do you think?
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quote :reflection of the diodes which look plain nasty
this is my biggest hate with LED’s i have even resorted to putting defuser plastic backs to the letters to help prevent this. I’ve also noticed with ashby leds you can each individually not to point directly at the backing board helping reduce the dot effect on the sign face.
i think the cost of neon is sometimes justified to be honest. its the customers that are getting too cheap.
what i mean is… a good neon bender demands top dollar as a wage. neon is not like vinyl text were the machine can spit it out in seconds.
you need design, templates made up, the glass actually bent and then there is installation and all the new regulations that go with that. so you need a proper spark fitting too at times.. depending on the sign of course. add this time and skill up and i honestly think its justified in most cases.
the more the customer turns their nose up at the neon prices the less demand there is for it. the knock on effect means less suppliers or higher rates to justify doing it.
personally, i “never” see leds taking over from neon, it has something about it…
that said, i see more and more of these flexible tubed setups giving off the same sort of effect & possibilities, but again, never as bright. -
Cheer rob,
This is the kind of info I’m looking for- a BIG worry for me is going to all the aggro of getting setup with neon making kit and then finding LED’s leaving me high and dry- not a happy thought.
With the layouts I’ve got a software package taht automates the layout and design of the tubes- this really does simplify things a lot on that side- I can put in the returns and bend styles where I need them.
Neon probably does justify the cost cos of the labour and equipment but there might be a case of this part of the trade getting itself into a vicious circle of diminishing demand which could kill the whole thing dead. I don’t see the point of pricing yourself out of the marketplace.
What I’d be looking to do is make up neon for my built ups and other bits and bobs then offer an on demand service to anyone else in the trade wanting to make a few bob out of neon- I can’t even sell to my customers at the trade rates I’ve been quoted so it’s a stupid situation where no one benefits- the customer don’t get their neon, I don’t get to deliver a decent job and the neon suppliers are sitting there looking at their equipment rather than making stuff and increasing the market- a lot of times in the past I’ve done a job for someone and their neighbours come in a few weeks later wanting the same kind of thing for themselves- maybe if there was more neon out there- done as you say Rob in a sympathetic way- there might be an upswing in demand.
I’m not saying neon’s easy and I’m not expecting to pick it up in 5 minutes and I’m not for certain I’m going to go that route but it’s something that I’m very, very seriously thinking about?!
I’m going to have to ponder on this for a bit aren’t I 😀
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I wouldn’t rule out LED completly, I would offer both as “illuminated signs”
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That’s why i think all signs should have to have planning permission, the local council planners should get involved more, and not allow shoddy looking foemex tat type signs, on another thread, people were asking should signmakers have certificates, if councils took an interest in the look and style of signs what should be allowed and what not, not allowing the cheap foamex black and white sign to be stuck on a 300 year old exposed timber framed building.. many of these cheapo signmakers/people getting in the business for a quick buck, would leave, and the majority left would be half decent..
As said here, a really nice sign is an asset, but most of the corner shop brigade don’t care about looks just profit, and when all the signs look sh*te in the street, it doesn’t matter what shop you go in..
Simon
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I want to offer the balance of LEDS & neon if at all possible- as you are saying each has a place and each are more suitable for specific things.
Simon- do you think the councils will ever get their ar$es into gear and do something useful like you suggest? From what I can see the highstreet is pretty much a free for all- like you say stuff which should really be consigned to the bin is being pedalled as signage and people are accepting it. Years back the council would be sniffing round any half decent shop making sure that corners weren’t being cut.
I try to explain to people that the big retailers spend big money getting their brand image looking right- maybe they should think about what the heck they are getting for the bargain basement price?! Doesn’t make much difference though! Is it me or do we drive past these cheap jobs a few months later when everythings peeling off or fading- don’t these customers go outside and think that’s not good for business? Why don’t they get these things fixed properly when they are quite obviously falling apart?
What I also don’t understand is how the people turning out this cheap tat hope to build a long term business? A vinyl cutter is fine for a while but you have to step up the equipment level sometime or you are for ever stuck feeding off the bottom- perhaps a little more thought before they start out would be in order.
None of my mates who are in other trades can quite work out what the score is in the sign game- after all the hoops they have had to jump though the last thing any of them do is go out wildly slashing prices and working for beer money. The whole reason they are now electricians or whatever is they knew the prices that they could command for their work and the pain of getting through college is now paying off with loads of work and top prices- callout fees and extra for Saturdays- when was the last time any of us got things like this?. We seem to be an industry that’s back to front and ar$e about face.
Moan, moan, moan 🙂
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Spot on there Andy, years ago as you said the councils would insist on decent signage, now they don’t care, i spoke to my local lot asking when the last time they enforced someone to comply with their notice ( i was enquiring about a projector sign that’s not allowed in this particular area), the guy i was speaking too, said he been working in the planning dept 5 years and never heard of one.
This trade (can you still call it that) has gone right down hill, i would say on par with painters and decorators
(sorry to say anyone can pick up a paint brush and wall paper, i had a few decorator round to give me a price on papering a ceiling, “sorry mate i don’t do that or i don’t do any type of papering” FFS whats that about), i am charging far less that my last employer did 15 years ago yet have around the same out going costs, i know prices of material has come down quite a bit but all the same… not that much.This trade will only get better when the local councils step in and start demanding higher quality jobs..
Simon
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What’s the answer- it’s just weird how things have got to the stage they have. I dont’ know about you Simon but I’ve invested in lots of expensive kit on the basis of earning money back and making a planned longterm investment.
Now you drive past and there’s good old joe bloggs on the wifes kitchen steps slapping a lump of foamex on the wall- and they have amazingly sold this pile of cr*p to some mug as a proper sign- WTF!! Next week he’ll be nailing up a few fairly lights from ASDA on the job you drew up and quoted for a troughlight or whatever- AND he’ll get away with it!!!!! I’d be too ashamed to turn up proferring drawings of some of the suff I’ve seen out there!
Materials have come down a tad from what they were but the stockists aren’t happy with the rates they are getting- most of them grumble that the sign biz is a bit of a dog and they make most of their money from engineering grade plastics and other industries. Most of the ones I deal with now only trade with us out of habit or tradition- the profit is generated elsewhere. Thing is cheaper material costs don’t help because any saving you make you don’t get to keep.
I haven’t got a clue as to why the councils who used to be red hot on standards and “in keeping with” have gone completley the other way and don’t care who does what- some junk out there would have been laughed out of the planning department at first sight “go away sonny and don’t come back until you’ve got a proper sign to show us”. Standard practice for projectors or anything illuminated used to be a formal application with engineering drawings didn’t it? or was I dreaming?!!
I didn’t really slog my ar$e off for years doing the real rubbish jobs as a youngster to get where we are now- I thought I’d be getting into a real, reputable trade with the chance of earning a decent living- now if I tell anyone I’m a signmaker their reaction is like I’d told em I was bin man or window cleaner (no offence to either occupation). Being a professional sign maker wasn’t supposed to be a pocket money bargain bucket occupation but something on a par with all the other trades!
What a bummer 🙁
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Not sure Andy, been thinking of investing in digital, but that too has become or is becoming swamped with Joe blogs doing it.. I started years ago, when everything was done by hand (bit out of practice now) when skill was involved, I find most of my time is spent designing and getting nothing more in return, years ago people came to you with a design and said can i have that on my van etc.. now they want blood..
I’m in a lucky position, as I’m subsidized by the wife..lol but the way things are going I’m not sure where this industry will be in the 10 years (how long can you flog a dead horse type of thing), i have two sons and was hoping they would sort of take over, but now I’m thinking they should become dentists :o..
only time will tell…
I’ve seen a classic sign in yarmouth, absolute fantastic design, and it has been unbeleivable defaced.. i will take a pic this weekend while i’m up there and post it, this sums up the sign trade todaySimon
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Feel for you mate- handing the business on to your boys would be a great thing to be able to do- that’s how things went in the dim and distant.
Take it easy & good luck- would hate to see an experienced guy forced out by these new to$$pots- goes right against the grain that does mate!!!
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strange world eh. Our planners are not keen on “any” signage on a near-high-street pub we was helping, seems like oldie wood only for them. And I do know they don’t like A-Boards where people will bang into them.
We seem to get by thru without much other niggles.
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It’s funny you should have got round to planning departments, I think every local council interprets the advertising regulations differently and because of this what one council may allow another will reject.
Round here you will not see a lot of neon and the main reason is not down to price. The local council do not like it and almost every application involving neon is rejected, they are not keen on spot lights either and if an application has anything other than a troughlight has a good chance of failing, even if the job has been designed to look best with the use of spots.
IMHO most of the jobs do not have a planning application anyway and the council will only take action if they recieve a complaint. When they do get a complaint they take action and will either insist stuff is taken down straight away or allow a planning application to be made. The problem is if people are putting up cheap tatty signs which may or may not be safe and no-one complains then nothing will get done.
There is a pub that I know of that put an application in to have new signs fitted the application was rejected and the owner told he was only entitled to one projecting sign, he argued that he had 3 at the moment and the pub had had 3 for at least 100 years. He has photos and paintings done over the years and they clearly show 3 projecting signs. The owner was instructed to remove 2 of the existing signs as they were against the advertising regulations, he is waiting for someone else to make a decission at the moment as he has taken it to a higher level. -
But even with some of the stupid decisions the councils doy the high street/local shops would look a darn site better, and would help bring the sign trade up again, IMHO
The thing that got me was I would have to do TCP applications for major blue chip companies, like Threshers, the council would get you to change things say you need this or change that, (which made live very difficult due to the strict layouts and colours most corp companies use) yet the shop next door would have 5 mile of neon flashing around every window door and surface available, but would never be asked to remove it.. MADSimon
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In my experience our local planning department is evil making up its own rules as it goes along
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Phill, you will love this: a small local airport (light aircraft only) put in a bid to build a tarmac runway to replace the grass one. Anyway, a couple of years later the council are going to set up an inquiry to ascertain how the application was so badly handled and eventually cocked up. Cost to council tax payer……£200,000
A customer of mine has just recently had an application turned down for a lightbox on his shop. In his street are at least 10 similar signs, but his is not allowed because the bloke opposite doesn’t want a kebab shop near him. Oh yes, the bloke opposite is on the council……..
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Somehow I am not all that surprised Andy 🙄
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the councils are definitely as crooked as they come. the left hand doesn’t know what the right is doing and when they do its only because they are gaining something for themselves. bunch of clowns the lot of them.
problem with them regulating any sort of signing is they know nothing about it. they let a company with much more knowledge (and backhanders) state what should and shouldn’t be used, only for the dim guy from the council to try enforce it when he really doesn’t understand why? i heard similar story much further up the ladder with the road departments and 3M. something about 2 of the guys in charge of stipulating whats used on our road signs and the like are actually ex-staff at 3M. im not saying this is in anyway bad as a choice, its not. but kinda throughs any good alternatives being used into touch. -
Our local planning used to object to signs as they would be a “distraction to motorists”. Then someone came up with the wheeze to sell advertising space on roundabouts to generate extra income for the council (and a massive profit for the wide boys that dreamed up the scheme). For some reason our local planning officers never objected to this scheme at all and we now have “official” adverts littered across all our roundabouts in Livingston.
I’ve a good mind to drive into one of them one day and sue the council for damages for distracting me when I was driving 😕
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Councils have their faults but I agree with Simon on this.
If you have to put in applications you also have to explain in detail how things work, do all the calculations for lumens and light spread, and generally have to justify why you are suggesting this or that is used and how it all fits into the overall project.
This is an easy off the shelf way of preventing the slap and dash brigade from kicking the industry to death. Half the people we are talking about here wouldn’t recognise and engineering drawing if it ran up to them and said boo- “why are you recommending this fixing method for the panels” errrr “it’s the only one I know how to do Mr council man”, “please explain the justification for incorporating fairly lights into the proposal”…. “well, they’re on offer at ASDA and I dunno where to get anything else- pretty tho aren’t they?”.
A few years back I came across a few people who had started out in this game but packed it in because they couldn’t cope with the more techincal side of things- you don’t get this now cos there ain’t a technical side for the average fascia butcher- as long as the screws hold it until the cheque clears it’s technical enough.
All this depends on having someone with a reasonable level of brain power and experience of the real world working in the planning office- probably why it ain’t going to happen.
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NO NO NO pHILL!!…..I WOULDNT HAVE THAT SAID ABOUT PLANNING DEPARTMENTS…..THERE GOOD HONEST PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT PEOPLES BUSINESSES …AND WOULD NEVER TAKE A BACKHANDER IN A BROWN PAPER ENVELOPE…….IM RITE AINT I ……..NOT 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
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In my time i have done, hundreds of Tcp applications, and would say only a hand full of them ever needed amending.
I knew that if you were putting signs in a village setting, it should be of traditional construction,
This type of planning, needs to be addressed, but won’t happen until people start complaining about the mess the high street are in.Things like A board/pavement signs, in some places should be banned, our local high street is a paved area, and on saturadays it is jamed packed, as you come to the end of the road, it narrows, and still shops put them out, and i have seen people knock into them, and even trip over them..
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Phil, I have mentioned the adverts on rounderbouts before, dont know about out your way but here the whole scheme is run by the council. Fife used to produce all its signage inhouse, the departments were slowly shut down over the years until all they have left now are the roads department.
The marketing, manufacture and installation of the signs on our rounderbouts is all carried out by the council, I bet none of these applications are refused.
One of my customers had an application turned down for fibre optics on the grounds that it would be a distraction to motorists. How many cars do you see in a shopping Mall ? Might have distracted the guy on his wee sweeping cart!!!! -
Yep we also have the roundabout signs as well…
isore -
i reckon those sponsored roundabout things are just daft, some big snobby Co, like our local BMW dealership, sponsors a little tiny roundabout, do it all up nice with a mariner theme (we’re 10 miles from the sea !) and then leave it for the same strimmer weilding assassins to destroy every living thing on it once a month ! money well spent hey ?!
on another note, ie, the original thread, from your username “southernAndy” i would imagine you’re down this way somewhere, whereabouts dude ? although i’ve never been asked for neon, i would be quite happy to come to you for it if i was asked.
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Roundabout signs seem like a good way to get rid of excess money- down here it’s usually the TEC or some other dumb money wasting quango who pay for them- or it’s suppliers to the councils who feel obliged to keep em sweet by “sponsoring” a roundabout.
Hugh we cover the Dorset, Hants & Wiltshire area with quick nips up the M3 to the big smoke.
Back to the original point of my neon ramblings- I’ve decided that I can muck about umming and errring forever- I want to do neon and I think I can make it stack up so the gear is ordered and the suppliers contacted- think Amari are going to be my best choice for tubes et al as they are the only people who want to talk to me 🙁 Rep was in this morning on the plastics side and I mentioned the neon thing and the guys from Amari’s neon supply shop were on the phone before lunch.
If in the next few months you notice lots of Glass lorries heading daaan saaf it’ll be my fault- making a mess on me practice pieces 🙂
Oh well- too late to go back now so fingers crossed it’ll work out- I will keep you all posted on me progress.
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Good luck with the Neon side of your business. I’m not really sure how much demand there is for it but I wish you well 😀
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Cheers Phill- I can’t be sure of the demand either 😕
I just though $od it why not- I’ve always wanted to be able to make up neon signs and as sad as I am I may well end up starting off as a hobby- as if I don’t spend enough time in the workshops anyway 🙂
The key thing that swung it was the cost of the kit- this makes it feasable cos I’m not sinking a bucket load of pennies into it and can afford to have it on the back burner (no pun intended) until I’m up to speed.
With only two or three other suppliers on the south coast it’s probably a better bet for me than a cadet or mimaki printer and I won’t have the pressure of a whopping great overdraft or loan to pay back.
I will let you all know how I go and give you an idea on the cost of a finished piece.
What have I done…… 🙂
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Yep, best of luck mate, have you done neon before?
I don’t get much call for neon, clients won’t pay for it..shame i like it..
Simon -
Some for a guy before he retired.
The pumping and bombarding is a semi automatic process on the kit I’ve chosen so that should be something I can master in the short to medium term- bending the glass is the bit that’s going to take the time- I’m looking at quite a few boxes of cheap plain glass and then just bend, bend, bend until I’m looking acceptable in terms of bend quality and smoothness of the flowlines. I have Neon tube layout software already so I don’t have to guess on the most efficient design for the glass.
I’ve booked a training course at the equipment suppliers to show me the ropes but saleable product is going to be many months down the line- but I’m happy to put in the time on this- neat and tidy and safe and sound are the things that are right at the top of my list. (my Dad’s an electrical engineer so he’s sorting me out with the electrical side of things- courses and such like).
Thanks for the goodwishes- hope it all pans out- otherwise look for an ad for some “as new” neon equipment in the excess equipment forum 😀
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good luck with it dude (mod-edit) admin@uksignboards.com
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Good Luck to you! I trained for many years to become a neon bender. When you are up and running let me know Good Neon shops on the south coast are hard to find,
good luck
i catchers neon
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