whats the views on mutoh and the versacamm please?

[Colin Crow]

Funny enough, going through the same dilemma myself at the moment. Sample prints received from VJet 1204 are very high quality so visiting Roland tomorrow to see if the VP540 can compete. Torn also between the print&cut facility versus a high end summa/graphtec + valuejet for similar money.

While on the subject any one recommend summa S/T series over Graphtec?

Colin

PS will report back after demo tomorrow with comparison.

[alan flynn]

hello

i was wondering when people would pick up how good this machines really is, we are going to run 2 1604 machine in our new unit when i can sell all our old machines and trade ins and get in it,
the problem you might have is getting one, they are selling so well the lead time is getting longer and longer,
if you want to talk to people running one we have sold quit a few and my customers are happy to talk to other sign makers,
as for cutters, so all you drag knife manufacturer but there is not a better machine than a t series, but comes at a price, but they go on for ever, so i would say money well spent,

regards
alan flynn

[Nick Minall]

I had a demo with Roland yesterday, I have seen Vjet prints and thought them very good but Roland can match them, I was very impressed with the Roland printers and the cutting from them.

Nick.

[Chris Windebank]

Alan, where is your new unit and is it open yet? I have tried to call and have emailed you but you are a hard man to get hold of

[R Ferguson]

Hello,

I have a value jet 1240, have had it for just over 2 months now. The print quality is good. Having not had a previous machine i can not comment on the i² Intelligent Interweaving system – however you do still seem to get wavy banding in solid colours , though not enough anybody would notice.

The engineer that set my my printer up recommended running a short print job or nozzle check on the printer every day. My machine is used 5 days a weeks and so the need for cleaning (except the automatic cleaning it does) seems to be removed. Once a week i clean the wiper and the damping station.

I think for the money they seem a good buy, I will more than likely upgrade to the larger model next year.

Robert Ferguson

[alan flynn]

hello chis

sorry my mobile is always on and never stops ringing, so sometime you will get my voice mail, but if i see a missed call i will aways ring back,
sorry but i cant put my mobile up but i have started putting on my adds in sign k#link and sign update,

regards
alan flynn

[Colin Crow]

Back from the Demo and sorry Nick I have to disagree about the quality. I took the Vjet samples with me and even the Roland rep had to agree that the top quality on the two printers (VP540 & VJ1204) were quite different.

Since being back I have taken the Lupe to the images and at comparable print speeds the quality is noticeable across the whole range. I realise that most here will probably never use the higher settings or be bothered by the graininess of the print but for the fine detail decals we produce it could be an issue.

However, I have to admit the cutting ability and the user friendly RIP are a huge bonus. The quoted ink costs also seem favourable although I do wonder if these can be taken seriously with variations in coverage quoted.

At the end of the day our decision may come down to the proven track record of the Roland over the relatively unknown Mutoh (sadly).

Colin

[Nick Minall]

Colin, I when to the Roland academy were did you go?

Nick.

[Nick Minall]

and also did you see the vjet printing or have you just the prints they sent you ?

[Colin Crow]

I went to their demo suite in Slough along with our rep from europoint. The roland guy seemed quite knowledgeable but I still think their may be scope for improvement by playing with profiles and media. They printed my own files from a variety of formats which were the same as used fo rthe VJ.

The Mutoh samples were provided by Spandex from files I supplied them. I have only seen the VJ working at the NEC but The prints have all the info detailing resolution, time etc along with the images. Assuming they haven’t faked these(?) then the comparison doesn’t take much effort to see the difference. I would be happy to post a detailed pic of some small text which highlights the quality issue if I can work out how to do it here.

I am really torn on this because my heart says ValueJet but my head is saying Versacam.

Colin

[Nick Minall]

I have seen the spandex prints from the vj and they are very good, but you have seen the roland print your files but you did not see the vj print them so you do not know how long they spent getting it right, I may be wrong but you need to see it print you files out first to be sure.

Nick.

[Colin Crow]

I understand the sceptisism but assuming that they haven’t used a different printer to achieve these results, and we compare the best possible resolution settings for each printer (irrespective of time spent) then there is still marked difference in the output.

Believe me when I say nothing would have pleased me more than to have got similar results today as I know the Versacam is the "sensible" buy, but whereas the VJ gets close to my Canon Pigment printer for quality, the Roland seems to be some way behind.

I have until the end of the month to take advantage of the Europoint offer for UKSG members so need to make a decision soon. If you have any advice I would be more than happy to listen. Equally if you want to see pics of the two top quality prints perhaps you could advise how to post them here?

Cheers

Colin

[Chris Wool]

colin do you know the actual settings used on the roland

res
no of passes

and have you proved the cutting work flow to the other machine

chris

[Colin Crow]

The roland was set to 1440 x 720 dpi bidirectional for the highest quality print but I couldn’t judge the number of passes easily as he was controlling the rip.

Phil Donoghue, the Roland Man, said that he wasn’t even aware of a profile that used the full 1440×1440 res. He also said that unidirectional printing wasn’t really used for conventional media or didn’t have any significant advantages.

There are many pros and cons for both of the options, but the overiding one that I think will make up our mind is the simplicity of production with the Roland. If I hadn’t seen the VJ output I am sure I wouldn’t be feeling like this but its a real niggle knowing there is a 4 colour printer out there with a significantly better print qulaity for similar money. Of course there is no guarantee that this can be reliably repeated but….

Colin

[alan flynn]

hello all
why dont to try speaking to end users already running the value jet and take there advice, ask spandex for reference sites, or you are welcome to talk to some of mine, some of which were running roland machines,
one thing i can say is we have a cadet plus, jv3sp and value jet in our sign business, the the value jet gives the best output and give us far less trouble
regards
alan flynn

[Chris Wool]

alan i understand colins perceived use of the machine and is far different from normal usage one mans quality is another mans rubbish if you see what i mean.

chris

[Ade Ward]

well ive been speaking to a few people..
Apart from the awful name Value jet!! seems crazy to think a company would use such a name, sounds like something tesco’s make.
The samples i received from spandex seemed good and so did Roland’s.
gonna need to see both working..
I have heard reports of the v jet stopping when ink runs out, once a new
one is installed it was supposed to carry on but the guy said it just gave a error reading and ruined a banner?
maybe a one off problem but interested to find out..
is the vjet old technology reboxed, maybe thats the reason for the price..
think we need v jet and versacamm users to speak and put us at rest..
im not sure which one to buy..
Im not a huge spandex fan to be honest so im leaning towards rolands
versacamm for the print, cut and its rip looks user friendly at the mo
The vjet maybe has a slight edge on print quality but that i need to see first hand before i decide which one.
tricky indeed (?)

Ade

[Chris Wool]

ade unless you have a need for that extra print quality that i have not seen yet so cant comment on it.
but as a general sign machine the print and cut workflow of the roland is superb and the max inks are well up to it.

chris

[Colin Crow]

I am going through the same roland versus mutoh problem and tend to agree with Chris that for the general signmaker who wants to be able to tick all the boxes and have a simple and efficient throughput then the Versacam is probably the best all round solution.

However in comparing like for like deals at the moment, you need to consider that the versacam doesn’t come with the take up unit as standard which is essential for unattended printing larger than the height of the printer. Also, it is not possible to print and cut when using the take up. Therefore don’t think (like I did) that you will able to leave the printer running, producing quantities of of print and cut without attending every metre or so.

For me the extra resolution of the Mutoh allied to the take up and superior plotter in the package probably just pips the extra convenience of the Roland deal, but we do have unusual requirements for printing fine decals along with our normal sign work.

Colin

[Kevin Flowers]

Hi
the inks in the Mutoh are the same as the Roland, the Mutoh up to now seems to have been more widely accepted in USA and gets some rave reviews on the sign forums there

Kev

[Lorraine Clinch]

quote Ade Ward:

Im not a huge spandex fan to be honest so im leaning towards rolands
versacamm

Ade

Ade, you don’t have to buy from Spandex, there are other suppliers of the VJ…and it would be well worth anyone’s while to get at least 1 other quote for comparison to Spandex’s – believe me, it’s worth doing (unless they are not treating you like some sort of numpty!)

[Colin Crow]

In Spandex’s defence, they have tirelessly supplied samples, details and a price that at least two other suppliers have said is unbeatable and all without massive haggling. Their knowledge on the subject has also been extensive and they pointed me to previous customers who have given me even more information and confidence. Overall I am very pleased with their service.

We do have experience with Spandex, having bought our edge system 2-3 years ago and again the niggles after installation were very quickly sorted.

Sometimes I think its easy to knock a big organisation like Spandex when in fact your experience may have only been with one or two individuals? I know that they have had a few changes of staff in the last couple of years.

Colin

[Lorraine Clinch]

Hi Colin, have sent you a PM rather than reply here.

[Chris Wool]

quote :

Hi Colin, have sent you a PM rather than reply here.

bet i know what that says 😉

[John.Taggart]

Hi guys my Vjet1640 arrived today and hopefully will be installed and working next week. Will be happy to report feedback then. Anyone with any questions about deal negotiated with Spandex and service I’d be happy to help.

John

[john butto]

Have been using the printer with Shiraz RIP and the PhotoPrint RIP that came with it on a Mac for almost a year here in the US. It is a wonderful machine with not one problem. Colors are right on when using the profiles. Compared to the Rolands I feel the real difference is the wave pattern since both printers use Epson heads and the same ink. I have a Summa D750 plotter for print and cut since I laminate almost everything you still have to take off the print and then put it back in to cut for the Roland, but with Mutoh and Summa it frees up my printer when cutting decals. Using Orajet 3951 adhesive vinyl with 290 laminate and for photo work Ivivid papers. I have owned Epson, Roland and HP printers.

[Neil Herbert]

Hi we have been running VJ 1640 + Onyx for 2 months with a summa D1600 with out any problems.
We took our own files to Sign UK and had them printed buy both printers there was a noticeable difference + a separate print & cut setup I think is better.

Cheers
Neil

[Ade Ward]

Well after a few weeks i have decided its the Versacamm vp540.
went up to roland in bristol on thursday for a demo and was very impressed by the machine, not yet seen the Value Jet and to be honest im not going to either..Im sure its a good machine but in the end the versacamm ticked all the boxes for me..
Print wise its great and it cuts at a good pace.
The rip was simple and easy to use.
Was going to get the 300 but price wise it better to get the 540.
Just need to get bigger unit to make it fit! 😉 😀

cheers
Ade

[Gareth.Lewis]

Don’t forget that space above your office! A neat set of wooden stairs and you’re away.

[Ade Ward]

quote Gareth Lewis:

Don’t forget that space above your office! A neat set of wooden stairs and you’re away.

Cracking idea Gareth…?!?!
might well try that (-)

[Colin Crow]

Valuejet for us! At the end of the day quality is a big issue for our products and the mutoh is proving to meet all our expectations, bettering some. Had ours for a couple of weeks now and constantly surprised how close the print quality is to our 6 colour Pigment printer which was using coated materials. The Mutoh seems to print on anything and really isn’t fussy about profiles, despite spandex providing around 130!

Also came with the take-up as standard (quoted +£1400 on versacamm) which is essential given that if the printed surfaces touch when just printed they stick badly (even though touch dry). If you want to run unattended budget for the take up unit (the roland rep forgot to mention this during the demo).

For the same price as the VP540 we also got an S class Summa in our valuejet package from Spandex which leaves the roland standing for cutting speed and versatility. The flex cut facility is sooo good almost eliminating guillotining of decals.

Can’t praise Spandex enough for their service from both the sales team and the service team who have bent over backwards to help with both installation, samples and advice. And before anyone asks, no, I am not being paid by them – I just think credit where due!

Colin

[Neil Herbert]

Hi Colin

Our VJ is the same as yours a dream to use. we also have the summa D1600 SE you mention The flex cut facility what is this?

Cheers

Neil

[Colin Crow]

Hi Neil

The D160 SE is different to the S Class series and I don’t think this offers the flex cut facility. If you check out the Summa site here http://www.summa.be/pages/d120se.html you can see the differences.

The flex cut facility uses a second path to cut almost entirely through the vinyl and backing so that the decals just push out of the sheet when finished. This saves a lot of time cropping down and means that they are all uniform.

Colin

[Warren Beard]

I was told by Summa at the SignUK show this year the the SE range can do it, I have not tried it but he said it can be done with the SE machine.

There is a setting to allow this in the manual apparently.

cheers

Warren

[Colin Crow]

We have a D60 SE also and I can’t recall seeing the facility in the manual but they may have updated the firmware now. On the S Class it’s available on the plotters touch screen. The D60SE certainly has the ability to produce a variable pressure cut if driven through software like Signlab 7.1 to emulate a flexcut but so far I have not had much luck with this facility in SL.

Colin

[Alan Drury]

Did your Cutter come with Summa Cutter Control software? This enables all settings to be done on the computer and then sent to the plotter, I’ve never done it but if your cutter supports it I would start with the software its much easier than going through menu options on the cutter.
Alan D