what would you do !!!!

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Brian, it happened to me ONCE with a wall mural. A hand-drawn sketch, which I was paid a whole $25 for, that the guy wanted revisions on. (I kept a lot of the details out of the first sketch) He kept the second sketch without paying for it and now has my mural on his saloon wall.

Happened to me once last year with a camper cap for a truck. I had dealt with the guy, it was a “sure” bet, he was coming in the next week, etc etc. A year passed and his wife came back, sketch in hand, wanting to change the colors HE chose. (he was out of town) I felt real weird about doing that, so I told her to come back with him the next week, which she didn’t. Saw the truck with her pukey color choice driving down the road 6 months later.

This is what I do now:
If they give me a deposit, sure, they can have the computer sketch. No deposit, no sketch, it’s that simple. The sketch I give out is one that is difficult to photo-copy too. If they want something on a floppy disc, I charge them $75 if they are getting lettering. If they want JUST the sketch and a floppy of it, it’s $150 and they can go to whoever the hell they want to go to for the stickers. For a hand-drawn sketch with no floppy I would charge $75 for a mounted-on-board-covered-with-tracing-paper jobbie. Minuimum.

I feel your pain, buddy. Remember that feeling and NEVER give out a sketch again.
I also make them sign a proposal describing the work, colors, specs,etc and we each get a copy.

Love….Jill

[Shane Drew]

Mate, I feel for you. Had this happened to me a few times. Done all the hard yards, gave the customer a printout, then they give it to another sign shop to reproduce at a cheaper rate, because they did not have to sit for an hour or two and do the original art.

I no longer give artwork out to the client until I have an undertaking that I have actuall got the job.

I let them see a copy, but they don’t take the copy with them until I have been given the go ahead, or I have a deposit to start.

If I don’t know the client at all, I’ll price the job first, and not do any artwork until I have the go ahead based on the price.

Either way you will upset some people, and it is unfortunate that some sign shops will welcome the opportunity to steal another shops artwork.

If I am approached by someone with ready made art, I’ll ask who did the original design. If it was an opposition sign shop, I tell them that I’d prefer to do my own artwork.

If it was a designer, they will have their name on it somewhere.

Until all sign shops are united on this, the idea of giving artwork out without a firm go ahead, will always be risky business.

I quoted on one job that took me 2 days of measuring and design, quoted over $5000 for the job. The client gave my artwork to another shop. He saved the 2 days to do the measure and design, and undercut me by $500. I still get upset everytime I drive past the now completed job (hot)

[Jill Marie Welsh]

AND
Just to be cheeky, send them a bill for the design!
What the heck….they won’t pay you, but it might make you feel better.
That and a bit of brake fliud….NAH, nevermind.
Love….Jill 😉

[Peter Normington]

Yeah its happened to us as well!
We dont give out printouts now without a deposit, If we get art work from another signshop now, we always quote a high price, we tell the customer that it takes us just as long to draw it from his printout, as it does from scratch, He can take it or leave it.
Peter

[Robert Lambie]

ive got the t-shirt too mate, your not alone. 😕
without going into it all, one guy that i spent hours with and then used his “brother in law” to do the work. actually came back to me about 6 months later asking for some work. i shook my head and said “com’on what do you think i am?” he went on to saying in the end his brother in law that done the work and he only did it because of that.
i said,”you knew your brother in law made signs before coming to me, so that doesnt wash” i was lettering a van at the point he came in, so i said i was busy and if he wants to leave £100 cash, ill arrange something tommorrow. the £100 wasnt a deposit. it was for the my time he wasted before.
always get a deposit and say it will be knocked off the overall bill when the work is complete. doesnt matter who it is, the guy i was talking about was a long term customer and “i though” a good friend.
the only reason i recon he came back was, although the design was almost the exact same, it was fitted so bad you would not believe. it had lines of text running off a mile 😕

ah well, we all live and learn.

[Brian Little]

yep i here what your saying folks and beleive me im taking it all on board….especially like the brake fluid bit from JILLIBEANS!!!!! but altho weve all thot of it unfortunetly it puts us on the wrong side of the law. Hey jillibeans its a pity we dont have Judge Judy in the uk!!!

Regards Brian

[Brian Little]

Oh sorry just a quick question for DSI I lived in Brisbane for a while & i remmember there was a lot of lettering on windows…brush work with really attractive bright colours do they still do that ….for some reason they dont do this in the uk so much, dont no why

Regards Brian

Ps lived in wynumm near manly ….& worked for a company called Des greenwood signs in capalaba sorry spellings mabe a bit out

[Mike Grant]

Yep! don’t give out your artwork unless they PAY FOR IT!

I will gladly do artwork as the customer will always want to see the finished article but I have learnt the hard way too, so now I have a polite letter that I show the customer stating that if they wish to take the artwork away (to show the wife 🙄 ) they have to pay 20squids which will then be knocked off the final bill. Needless to say this normally sends them on their way with a cheery “ok no probs I’ll bring the wife around to see it”………Not!

Once bitten twice shy! (:)

[Beej Curtis]

Agree with everyone else, and its happened to me too. I ‘ve even had an agent take my finished airbrush artwork, sell it to the client and not pay me OR give me back the originals! Bummer!

I won’t do ANYTHING now without 50% deposit (we’re talking mostly finished artwork here.) it’s just not worth it. In the old days you used to get the design houses asking illustrators for their ‘ideas’ b4 commissioning a job. All they do then is give the ideas to someone else to do.

When I get approached by a custome to paint a chopper/bike they are usually coming because they have already seen my work and this usually applies to lots of sign companies too. Why should you lift a finger for free? It’s your job, it’ what you get paind for man! I always say, ‘I can do fully detailed visuals showing you how the job will look completed and if you give me the 50% advance I’ll book the job in and start on the visuals right away.’

I have been burnt too many times in the past, dealing with moiney and customers is THE single most difficult part of learning to run your own business, but once you start getting that deposit time after time from customers it makes it easier the next time and you should always know your abilies have a worth.

Beej

[autosign]

Put a copyright notice on the artwork that states it is your intellectual property and may not be reproduced without your permission. If you later see it driving about call them up and tell them you’ll be sending them an invoice for artwork.

The other day we had a customer call us and ask for the vector file of a logo we designed and fitted for his van. Turned out he wanted some other stuff done but had already given the work to another cheapskate sign company. We wouldn’t even let him have that.

[Shane Drew]

quote signs elite:

Oh sorry just a quick question for DSI I lived in Brisbane for a while & i remmember there was a lot of lettering on windows…brush work with really attractive bright colours do they still do that ….for some reason they dont do this in the uk so much, dont no why

Regards Brian

Ps lived in wynumm near manly ….& worked for a company called Des greenwood signs in capalaba sorry spellings mabe a bit out

Hi Brian, Wynnum/Manly is a wonderful part of town. Really trendy now too, so you will pay a motza for houses there these days.

GREENWOOD SIGNS Unit 5/ 284 Old Cleveland Rd East Capalaba 4157 (617) 3245 4711 ? I don’t have anything to do with them, as I am in Logan City, and I never go to that part of town. They are still around though.

Brush work here is a dying trade unfortunately. A lot of guys are retiring and we have no apprenticeships for hand brush work anymore, although the Sign Association is trying to get one reinstated at the Brisbane TAFE.

I employed two brush signers but had to let them go because of a lack of brush work. Labour rates are a bit high here, and people always seem to be looking to save money. Computer Cut signs have taken over in most sectors of the market here now. Airbrush work is really big here now though, and although it is hard to find a really talented airbrusher, they do exists. A lot of brush guys and gals are specialising in that area now.

No doubt it is the same over there.

[Shane Drew]

quote autosign:

Put a copyright notice on the artwork that states it is your intellectual property and may not be reproduced without your permission. If you later see it driving about call them up and tell them you’ll be sending them an invoice for artwork..

I have tried the (c) notice too. When I challenged the former client, he dared me to take it to court. When I made enquiries, it was going to cost me $150 to $200 for a solictior to draft a ‘legal’ letter, which the client would probably ignore. Then, to take it to court, it would cost me $1500 to brief a Barrister… then there was no guarrantee that the client would not challenge the deision if he lost…. more money for legals….. 😥

I walked away: Client 1 – me 0

As they say; don’t confuse justice with the law

No artwork without a deposit is the best option from my perspective.

Cheers
Shane

[Kevin.Beck]

I never design in front of someone.

Always take a deposit for the art work, which is nocked off the final bill, unless there is a huge amount of time spent on the design.

Yes they can have a printout, after they have paid the deposit.

I`d still put a copy right notice on the art work, it won`t stop everone, but it might stop a few.

Yes they can have the vector file. at an agreed price.

You need to list all the relivent rules and place them where the customer can see them..

[Brian Little]

Thanks Shane for getting back and indeed everyone for there advice on this subject its been helpfull .Theres no way ill be doing artwork as a charity offering again……..Oh and shane thats the guy write enough (Des greenwood) The picture in my profile is me lettering a pick up ..( a ute to you !!!!) for a signwriter originallly from Stirling here in Scotland the companys name was Bayside signs .

Regards Brian

[Bill Dewison]

That sucks Brian, as others have said, you could send an invoice to both the customer and the signmaker who did the job, as neither of them should have used your design. Granted, they probably won’t pay, but it might make them both think a little.

Again, agree with what others have said about no artwork without a deposit, but that isn’t always practical. Fair play, the final draft, but preliminary sketches and the like, its hard to get someone to commit on those and sometimes I can put as much work into those as I do the final design. I have some wierd and wacky ideas at times, and unfortunately ppl can always work out a cheaper way of achieving the same effect, its whether its worth the hassle going to another signmaker etc etc. For instance, I suggested once to a customer that if they repainted the front of their shop, they could get away with having moulded letters applied directly to the signboard above the window… no design as such, but the idea was there. Guess who didn’t get a to stick the moulded letters on 😕

Humble opinion, but if the signmaker who half-inched your design is reading on here, don’t do it! Its not big and its not clever. How would you like it if you’d spent all that time on a design and you saw another signmaker aplplying it to a van and pocketing the cash?

Cheers, Dewi