What printer and cutter for doming

[Andy Gorman]

I’ve only ever used a Gerber Edge (plus cutter) for doming. You don’t really need a large printer for domed badges. Should be able to pick one up fairly cheaply second hand, but watch out for the price of a replacement print head.

[Chris Wool]

i will be ringing these people tomorrow to see how much there carts are.

http://www.liquid-lens.com/index.php

lots of printers to use but desk top types are limited by cut material supplies.

i use PC60 & a soljet plus a laser all got different properties.

chris

[Jason Davies]

I’d be interested in the professional machine, good find Chris. I’ll give them a call in the morning as well. I wonder if they are interested in some dye sub equipment. 😉 😳 😳

[Chris Wool]

come on jason where is your spirit the next builders van gets 5 shirts and 2 high viz. 😉

[Jason Davies]

I spent it on a Ricoh 🙁

[Rodney Gold]

A small print and cut Roland like a 2nd hand sp300 is the best.
However your profitiability on doming will not be dependant on the printer – its the doming method and the cost of material (doming resin) that will count. You will need a dry environment to dome , use a dehumidifier , drying racks (shelves with a plastic builders sheet curtian and light bulbs screwed into the tops) and a decent mixer/dispenser (look at cammda or camda for a small setup)
The orrect doming resin is a 2 part polyurethane and you will need to get it at about 10 quid a litre to be competitive.
In general , pricing of about 350 quid per sq meter on decent runs is a rough guideline of what to charge , 1ml of resin will cover one square inch or 6cm2. 1 sqm of print will cost at max 10quid including inks and premium vinyl , and you will use about 2 litres of doming stuff , ie about 20 quid – 1 m2 should NOT cost you more than 40-50 quid including the labour of doming.
You should be able to dome around 2-4000 items a day depending on size and complexity.
Sharp corners are a no no when doming , the doming will struggle to get into them so round off sharp stuff when cutting.
You can use sheets of glass and use Pritt or a low tack glue to stick the vinyl sheets once cut and weeded to the glass.
Your biggest enemy when doming is moisture – being hot does not mean there is no humidity – buy a cheap dehumidifier!!!
I recon total cost to set up a decent doming operation is round 10k for the printer and around 10k for the rest.

[Andrew Blackett]

quote Chris Wool:

i will be ringing these people tomorrow to see how much there carts are.

http://www.liquid-lens.com/index.php

lots of printers to use but desk top types are limited by cut material supplies.

i use PC60 & a soljet plus a laser all got different properties.

chris

Far too dear in my opinion, ring acuflow – 0121 3782289, speak to Eddie or Mark and tell them I sent you. They are about half the price but its automotive grade stuff

Andy

[Chris Wool]

owe you a drink Andy just placed a order 😀 thank you

chris

[Jason Middleton]

Great replies and information thanks all.

Rodney thanks for your detailed reply however I am not looking to set up on that scale at the moment I’m starting from scratch so wanting to get set for a lot less than 20k I was thinking hoping I could get a printer and cutter for around the £1500 – 2k mark. I will be Doming be hand using cartridges doing smaller runs and badges ect although I do hope to build it up to the level you are talking.

As I was looking at buying the equipment with the business I never really looked, but know I am starting from scratch I’m just trying to find out what kind of printer and cutter would be worth starting off with.

Thanks

[Rodney Gold]

I cant see you getting away with anything less than a sp300 , I would not suggest a thermal printer (we used em before inkjet) as they are very expensive to use re consumables.
Do not buy a Roland thermal if you do go that route as heads costa plenty – a gerber edge is prolly a better bet.
At one stage I used an dektop type printer and a laser cutter , but the laser cutter is VERY expensive.
I cannot see you getting away with 1500 quid start up unless you use a desktop inkjet printer and inkjet vinyl and cut it by hand , not a major issue if you use simple shapes and have very limited production.

[Chris Windebank]

Cheers Andy, called them and ordered too. What a helpful company

[Jason Middleton]

Thanks Rodney for you reply after a bit of research i’m thinking of getting a desktop inkjet printer and a Summa D60 cutter, I’m hoping this should at least get me started and then hopefully I can build up from this, any thoughts on this and suggestions on a desktop printer would be greatly appreciated

thanks

Jason

[Chris Wool]

if going for the desktop type then remember that some have pigmented inks some dye, and not all the specialist vinyls like the wrong ink.
dye will fade quickly if used outdoors even under the doming.

with the cutter make sure that from where you buy it they understand what you are doing cos you will have problems to start with with registration. when you understand whats happening it will be quite easy.

chris

[Rodney Gold]

Im not sure you will get it right with a4 sized stuff re the cutter and registration , so I suggest a3 …

I used an Epson 1290 with its inks , but currently for fotos use a canon , colours supposed to last 20 yrs..

Make sure you can actually source inkjet vinyl for A3 , be aware most of the inkjet vinyls are actually polyester with no stretch at all and there is no real guarantee on their adhesiveness.

Check out http://www.papilio.com/ for some papers etc

Make sure your ink is compatible with the resins , cos some do tend to run into the resins

Thats why we went to vinyl cos you can get what you need in all departments.

All our doming is done with a roland print and cut machine with eco inks , we dont have a problem with fading etc – but then we dont guarantee our domed stuff for extended periods. The guys that do the car stuff , the actual car emblems for the factory use fancy resins and inks etc.

There are big markets for domed decals , trophy and medal inserts , product label enhancement , promotional items , branding , rosette inners , certificate seals and so on. You can dome anything – practice on coins first – but anything flat can be domed. You will be limited to about 5" x 5" as the domes sink in the middle too badly on bigger decal unless you use a high viscosity resin

At any rate , like anything else , your marketing efforts will determine your success in this field.

The question you have to ask yourself is "why would ppl use me rather than someone else" and base your marketing plan on that.

[Jason Middleton]

Rodney, I cant thank you enough for another very informative post

if I’m looking at A3 printers and not die based inks then that narrows my choice significantly, but I’m not sure how I can establish if the ink is compatible with the resins before I purchase.

I figure a canon pixma 9000 or 9500 or epson stylus r2880 or r1900 for printers and then a summa d-60 cutter with optical eye registration is what I’m looking at.

Regarding marketing, thanks for you suggestions, since I first came across the process of doming which was only a couple of months ago it just got me excited as I think the potential is huge although I realise given my set up wont be geared for the mass production at this stage so I’m going to target small runs and niche one offs. My target is then after getting experience and established I will gear up for the mass production whilst keeping this going, but I guess I’ll just see where this takes me once I get started.

thanks again to yourself and everyone else who already has or adds to this thread, its a huge helping hand for me.

Jason

[Jason Davies]

Jason, good to see this isn’t putting you off. I wouldn’t discount the large runs. If you can make up reasonable samples etc using your setup you can then sub out larger orders to different companies who can print and dome in large quantities. At least you can build up a strong customer base that way.
Good luck
Jason

[Rodney Gold]

You can actually put stuff in the dome, like pigments , glitter etc. You can also dome clothing labels on heat press material to be applied to stuff.

[Jason Davies]

Rodney, how do you dry these domed stickers if you are running that quantity per day, is it UV, Nitrogen???

Jason

[Rodney Gold]

We use a 2 part polyurethane mix that has a very short pot life but also a very short hardening period – can be handled in 30 mins and packed in an hour. I use pneumatic dispensers , they hold 2 x 2litre pots , the 2 parts go thru a distribution block and only get mixed right at the dispensing nozzle so theres no air etc entrapped.

We actually apply the doming resin by hand in that I have
ladies that hand hold the dispenser needles and let the resin drop etc – They are dab hands at it small decals like 5 secs or less. I have 2 of em

I then have bookshelves with light bulbs screwed under the shelves for heating and use a piece of builders plastic sheeting as "curtains" for the bookshelves/drying racks

I have a small fan on the bottom shelf that makes it a positive pressure enclosure to minimise dust – the racks also shortens times to as low as 15 mins to handle. All decals are weeded and then applied to glass sheets with a bit of Pritt (kids scrapbooking glue stick) prior to being domed
I use a fairly softish flexible resin so my decals can go round tubes etc – also always looks shiny , never dulls or yellows or cracks or delaminates and inks dont run into it.

Works out at about 12 quid a litre mixed , covers 1000 sq inches – a 2 x 1" badge costs like 3 pence to dome and you can easily double the price with doming.
Decals too – you can command 10x the price domd as compared to undomed – 350 quid per sq meter is still "cheap" – try get that with just print and cut…!!

[Jason Middleton]

Thanks again everyone you have been a great help, in light of this I thought it only right that I should purchase a full membership.

[Andy Gorman]

Of course you don’t have to have a printer to do doming. Standard cut vinyl lettering looks sensational with resin on it, especially chrome and carbon fibre. Printing just gives you more possibilities.

[Warren Beard]

quote Andy Gorman:

Of course you don’t have to have a printer to do doming. Standard cut vinyl lettering looks sensational with resin on it, especially chrome and carbon fibre. Printing just gives you more possibilities.

How is it done using cut vinyl? Do you have to have a solid vinyl base with cut vinyl on top or just straight over the cut vinyl on to the backing paper?

[Chris Windebank]

straight over cut vinyl Warren

[Warren Beard]

I’m presuming then the "strength" of adhesive is only down to the amount of vinyl left once weeded 😕

[Andy Gorman]

Warren, I’m just talking about standard cut vinyl lettering and logos in single colours. The only difference is that it is a good idea to put a 1mm radius on all corners to stop the resin breaking out. Then you dispense onto each letter and it spreads, stopping at the edge of the letter. Look on most modern camper vans and caravans, and you will see these individually domed letters. I have made hundreds of thousands of them in the past. Application is the same as normal – just use application tape.
As I said earlier, chrome, metallics and carbon fibre effect vinyls look absolutely stunning when domed.

If you attempt to lay a second colour on top before doming there is a good chance you will get bubbles in the resin as tiny air bubbles will be trapped around the second layer and then released as the resin cures.

[Andy Gorman]

As for the strength of adhesive – it isn’t really an issue. I/we was once an OEM supplier to the motor-home trade and our products met their standards. We did only use cast vinyl but that was because of the popularity of particular metallic shades.

[Warren Beard]

aah, sorry I was thinking a cut vinyl logo with a complete "dome" over the whole logo and not just on the vinyl itself, that’s why I was confused.

So if a full domed label then print, if just letters than cut vinyl (or print and cut)

thanks for clearing that up.

cheers

Warren

[Jason Davies]

Just as a follow up to this thread, I contacted Acuflow as mentioned above and we have now bought a Dopag doming machine (reconditioned). Wasn’t entirely convinced when I saw it because it looks like something I would have knocked up in my O level metalwork class but apparently it does the trick. Just need to get hold of some nitrogen and supplies from Acuflow and we are in business.

I must stop reading these threads because it gives me ideas which = more money spent.

[Andrew Blackett]

quote Jason Davies:

Just need to get hold of some nitrogen and supplies from Acusol and we are in business.

I must stop reading these threads because it gives me ideas which = more money spent.

You might have better luck getting in touch with acuflow but it all sounds good!

Any pics of this machine Jason? I’m just waiting on some samples of glitter, gold, silver and pearlescent additives which we can add in to our cold enamel for some bling effects.

Andy

[Jason Davies]

Thanks Andy, too much vino.

As soon as we get it setup I’ll post some pics. Thanks for the lead on acuflow, they put us in touch with these guys, didn’t fancy importing one for Italy or the USA.

[Andrew Blackett]

Is it a dispensing machine Jason, foot pedal type or one of the all singing all dancing cnc type ones?

Andy

[Chris Windebank]

Cheers for the tip Andy, they are a great company to deal with, second order coming today

[Jason Davies]

It’s a dispensing machine with a foot pedal. Going to order the nitrogen today. The chap we bought it from also gave us 80 sheets of hardened glass so very pleased over all.
Going to order the consumables from acuflow today.

[Jason Middleton]

Andy thanks for the Acuflow details, been there today I’ve never met such helpful people they couldn’t do enough for me, they can count on my business.

[Andrew Blackett]

quote Jason Davies:

It’s a dispensing machine with a foot pedal. Going to order the nitrogen today. The chap we bought it from also gave us 80 sheets of hardened glass so very pleased over all.
Going to order the consumables from acuflow today.

Why nitrogen, ours just ran off compressed air!? Is it something to do with reducing bubbles in the resin?

Andy

[Jason Davies]

Hi Andy, yes, it’s to reduce the air. Acuflow also recommended Argon (I think). However we have a good source for nitrogen so will stick with that. Just waiting for some fixings to turn up for the compressor and the order from Acuflow and we are ready to go.

Jason

[Andrew Blackett]

Sounds good Jase, make sure you get some pics of the kit when you’ve got everything in order – am intrigued!

Andy