what are peoples views on sign failure and insurance issues?

[Hugh Potter]

quote Warren Beard:

Hi All

Just wondered where I would stand in worse case scenario 😕

Cheers

Warren

worst case? if it landed on someones head,you could be in the dock with a chap in a wig looking over his specs at you, face with manslaughter.

you’d have to be prooved very negligent for that to happen, but generally that’s why we have public liaiblity insurance, it covers you mainly for that kind of thing, ie, pays out should a civil or insurance claim be made against you.

Hugh

[Martin Pearson]

It’s a difficult one this Warren because the Company are always going to look to you to repair or replace free of charge on the basis that you couldn’t have done the job correctly in the first place.

Obviously we do get freak weather from time to time and this causes signs to come down that would have been fine under normal conditions, in that case then the Company would normally either pay for a repair themselves or make a claim on their insurance.

Even if this is quite a small sign the wind loading on it could be quite high. and protruding signs always tend to move or vibrate just by their nature.
I always use anchor bolts with protruding signs no matter how small they are as I always feel that screws and rawlplugs can work lose much more easily.

[Russell Spencer]

Once the sign is fitted to your customers premises it is part of their building and covered on their insurance, it is their responsibility to maintain it in good condition, as they have done by calling you out to fix it.
As a sign maker it is your responsibility to fix a sign securely to cover most weather conditions unless you have written a disclaimer into the contract.
If the sign caused damage or injury the first port of call would be the building insurance, if the insurance surveyor feels the sign has been incorrectly fitted then they would come after you/your insurance for compensation.
If the installation was deemed dangerous then the HSA would be involved and a prosecution could arise from this.
The pivotal point is ‘Extreme Weather’, I would say if the Met office had issued a weather warning then this would be sufficient to negate most claims.
You have to weigh up your customer relationship, is there more work on offer or is it just a one off, do you want this customer to recommend you to others.
Personally I couldn’t sleep at night if I knew that signs had been poorly fitted because ‘we didn’t have the right screws’ or ‘time was running short’, plus I think it is bad economics to think like that. But unfortunately some signmakers do and it reflects on us all.
I’m sure we all have horror stories about signs we have visited to replace or re-fix and wonder how they have stayed up for so long and not killed anyone in the process.
I always find that projecting signs on corner buildings cause the most problems, I think the wind curls round the corner and buffets the signs, sometimes to destruction..!!
For what its worth the only way we fix projecting signs is with chemical anchors, they are not too expensive now and are well worth the money. You cant use Rawlbolts any more on new construction buildings because the newer bricks have hollow ‘frogs’ (holes through them) to reduce weight and there is nothing for the bolt to grip to, or it just splits the brick.

[Warren Beard]

Thanks for the info, good to know. It was the other day after there were warnings of high winds. The signs was not going to fall down but did pull a few mm out of the wall (I had used 100mm screws) I have since put a bracket on so it will be 100% now.

The situation just got me thinking about it and thought I would ask.

All my signs are top notch 😉 :lol1:

thanks again

Warren

[James Martin]

whats a chemical anchor?

Are there any courses out there that deal with fixtures and different types of fitting: It horrifies me to think that I could have set up a booby trap somewhere that is just waiting for the right meteorological trigger to set it off.

weather, gravity, electricity……..its all a minefield.

Vehicle graphics are a bit safer, worrying about paint work pales in comparison to exterior signage.

[Steve Underhill]

I always use anchor bolts too, its just not worth using anything less, obviously on smaller fittings screws and masonry plugs may have to be used but I would use a resin based bonding agent to fix the plug into the wall before fitting, the wall would come down before that resin comes out, fischer or suchlike do it, not cheap but good gear.

I also on the bigger signs make up a little cable, attached to the sign, and also the wall, with a O bolt and either carabiners or suchlike on the sign, the cable can be pretty thin as its so strong I use 3mm, that way if the sign falls it will only fall as far as the length of cable supporting it.
Its a good backup plan and could be a life saver,
Belt and braces and all that.
Also the public liability will only pay out if it can be proved you were not negligent in fitting and took every reasonable precaution to make sure of this.
I know this because I rang my insurers to clear that up the other day.

quote :

You cant use Rawlbolts any more on new construction buildings because the newer bricks have hollow ‘frogs’ (holes through them) to reduce weight and there is nothing for the bolt to grip to, or it just splits the brick.

Unless of course its a block building, not that many new buildings are made from bricks round here, all 9" blocks.

[Russell Spencer]

quote James Martin:

whats a chemical anchor?

you drill a 12mm approx hole about 50mm deep, clean out the dust and half fill the hole with a special 2 part resin, you then push a threaded rod, approx 6-8 mm dia and 70mm long into the hole. As the resin cures it expands and sets like rock inside the hole, only takes about 6-8 mins depending on the temperature, you then have a 20mm threaded projection to fit a nut and washer to.
Hilti are the masters at it and we use their ‘HIT’ system, but they are very expensive, there are other manufacturers at reasonable costs.

[James Martin]

Tks mate!

[Russell Spencer]

quote Steve Underhill:

quote :

You cant use Rawlbolts any more on new construction buildings because the newer bricks have hollow ‘frogs’ (holes through them) to reduce weight and there is nothing for the bolt to grip to, or it just splits the brick.

Unless of course its a block building, not that many new buildings are made from bricks round here, all 9″ blocks.

Only concrete block, rawlbolts are not rated for ‘thermalite’ blocks as used in the majority of construction these days.

[Steve Underhill]

Who uses thermalite on external walls????

Certainly nobody I know, they are all concrete 9" blocks.
Thermalite on an external wall wouldnt last 5 minutes you can pick them apart with your hands. 😮

[Russell Spencer]

quote Steve Underhill:

Who uses thermalite on external walls????

Certainly nobody I know, they are all concrete 9″ blocks.
Thermalite on an external wall wouldnt last 5 minutes you can pick them apart with your hands. 😮

They are rendered or faced over, see the Hanson website for more details.

But we are getting off topic, save it for another thread.

[Steve Underhill]

Its not off topic its certainly relevant as it was a safety issue regarding wall fixings.

If someone has used regular thermalite blocks not high strength and just rendered over them, that does not give a good enough surface to fix anything to, render is about a quarter inch thick and is only a weak mix of sand and cement, weaker than a thermalite block in most cases.
most buildings will have something fixed to the face of them and this is why thermalites are not used. I spoke to 2 builder friends last night and they have never heard anything like it.
Thermalites are only used on internal walls, but externally they are just not strong enough, also when using frog bricks they "should" be filled with cement, so even if drilled they shouldnt crack.

If someone had used thermalite blocks on an external wall, I would refuse to fit any kind of hanging/heavy sign to it, put it that way.
Normal thermalites are for internal use, Ive worked on tons of building sites and only ever seen them used on internal non load bearing walls.
If you look at hansons site, there is quite clearly a picture of a builder using a layer of house bricks for the outer skin of a house and the thermalites on the inside skin.

Thermalite do a whole range of blocks so I think the moral of the story is if they have been used, ask what type, unless they are the high strength ones dont hang heavy signs.