Vinyl sticker weight

[Phill Fenton]

Tell the cyclists to go on a diet or have a good pee (thereby reducing the overall weight of their bodily fluids) before setting off on one of their races

[Fabrice Menard]

quote Phill Fenton:

Tell the cyclists to go on a diet or have a good pee (thereby reducing the overall weight of their bodily fluids) before setting off on one of their races

:lol1:

Many of the bicycles are exposed on fairs, almost never ridden, just to show the "lightness" . As a cyclist and heavy rider (~100kg) I can really feel the difference between a light and not so ligh bicycle, especially on the wheels (think about the inertial effect of weight on rims).

But that’s not the question, If I suggest your idea to my customers, they won’t buy anything from me 😉

[Robert Lambie]

Do you actually have a demand for lighter stickers?

seems bizarre they want to cover 70% of the rim yet weight is an issue?
if weight is the issue, simply do not put sticker on, or cover less of the wheel.

also, if its a road cycle then the graphics should have no problem not being laminated. so your reducing the weight right there.

I am not being funny but when you get the calibre of cyclist that would make such a request, they will have already have paid well over £1000 for a decent bike.
My point is, a serious cyclist will pay good money to have the very best. so you should charge accordingly. your argument shouldn’t be your cheaper than the competition, it should be your graphics cost more because they are lighter.

[Fabrice Menard]

quote Robert Lambie:

Do you actually have a demand for lighter stickers?seems bizarre they want to cover 70% of the rim yet weight is an issue?
if weight is the issue, simply do not put sticker on, or cover less of the wheel.

also, if its a road cycle then the graphics should have no problem not being laminated. so your reducing the weight right there.

I am not being funny but when you get the calibre of cyclist that would make such a request, they will have already have paid well over £1000 for a decent bike.
My point is, a serious cyclist will pay good money to have the very best. so you should charge accordingly. your argument shouldn’t be your cheaper than the competition, it should be your graphics cost more because they are lighter.

yes I have demands from wheel builders as they fight together to win 1gram compared to other builders.

The high coverage is part of what people ask because of the design. Global stock wheels manufacturer do screen print the rims so weight is not an issue.

Here, we talk about custom wheels (rim, spoke, hub, color) that people want to exact match what they want nipple color, rim weight, spoke tension etc… and they expect to have the high coverage they can find on stock wheels.

My main customer told what that since the design changed (coverage increase by almost 4), he sold much more than before but weight increase seems a bit high and think he could sell more if he wins few grams.

Road wheels should also be laminated. At first because of transport in wheel bags in the car scratches the stickers a little each time, second because people who pay a lot for custom wheels expect the stickers to be robus, third because many people clean the wheels with acetone (to remove glue from tubulars) which damages the stickers (although I warn them not to do so)

In the last years, I sold stickers for many thousands of wheels and observed that the bigger stickers have more success than smaller.

For the price increase, I can sell expensive stickers to cyclist as direct customers, no problem there. To wheels builders, I can not annouce them the double price to save 10% of the sticker weight.

The point here is not why they want it lighter (If I argue with them, I would not sell such product 😉 ) but how I could reduce the weight. I don’t expect to win 50% in weight but a solution that I could offer as a weight saver without having the need to invest too much. Maybe there is not.

[John Hughes]

Fabrice, can you print/laminate a cast vinyl then cut small circles ie 2/3mm diameter from the whole sticker – similar to contravision.

This way you could reduce weight by 40% ish but not effect the design too much.
Probs need to experiment a bit tho and weeding the circles will take a while.

John

[Phill Fenton]

These cyclists obviously know nothing at all about physics. For maximum speed and efficiency, streamlining and low rolling resistance are far more important then weight. In fact you reach a point when lighter wheels will actually detract from the vehicles performance due to the flywheel effect. This states that it is possible to store more potential energy within a rotating body that has more mass then a similar rotating body of less mass. In simple terms – the cyclist with the heavier set of wheels when traversing a flat surface at maximum speed will build up more potential energy in the wheels of the bike to be used to good effect when climbing up hill. i.e. the extra momentum due to the higher mass will prevent the bike from slowing down as quickly as the lower mass bike. This also explains why men tend to be faster cyclists then women (cos they’re bigger and heavier). It also explains why women with large breasts tend to be faster then women with small breasts. 😕

[Denise Goodfellow]

quote Phill Fenton:

It also explains why women with large breasts tend to be faster then women with small breasts. 😕

pmsl

[Harry Cleary]

quote Phill Fenton:

It also explains why women with large breasts tend to be faster then women with small breasts. 😕

You can’t catch them either? 🙁 😀

[Doug Pulver]

Fabrice.

I don’t know about durability but have you considered water slide decals? These are the decals you used on model cars and planes when you were a kid. There is water slide decal paper you run through an inkjet printer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_slide_decal

[Steve Morgan]

A couple of years ago I was told that Oracle 751 cast material had a weight of 80grm/m². I have printed successfully onto 751 and it is available in transparent as well so try the clear as an overlaminate. 851 also has clear and maybe 951 which is 0.005mm thinner.

Just a little insight into the world of Road Time Trialling, which is where this type of disc wheel is used. A carbon rear wheel as used by pro riders will cost in the order of £1800 + and complete but without tyre and gear cassette will weigh close to 1100grms, a 100 or so gammes more than a good road racing wheel. Time trial riders are paranoid about the weight of their bikes and if one manufacturers wheel is 100 or even 50 grammes more than his competitors they’ll loose the sale – it’s all about the 0.5 and 1% gains. Olympic Gold medalist, Bradley Wiggins is a big bloke in cycling but he weighs less than 75 kilos. The flywheel effect… well you need a light wheel that will spin up fast out of corners, the latest wheels are very aerodynamic which probably counts for more as it’s the biggest speed killer; and the subject goes on and on and on………….
Sorry about all that.
Steve

[Gavin MacMillan]

Even the cross country riders now often have unpainted frames to save weight (according to Chris Boardman)
Phill your reasoning may be sound on a flat course but it doesn’t work on normal racing terrain. It wont take much of a hill to use up your stored energy and then you are straight back to manually peddling that extra weight up the next 2km of the hill.

[Fabrice Menard]

don’t you have hills in UK ? 😉 (real one I mean :lol1: :lol1: )

As a cyclist for years, I agree with you for the flat roads but absolutely not on hills, experience speaks here, at 40km/h and more you are right, not at 10-20km/h uphill.

I do not use the same wheels depending on where I ride and I clearly see the difference on the chronometer.

As I said, don’t try to find why they want it lighter, it’s up to them 😉

I just try to find a better solution than the one I currently use if there is any.

quote Phill Fenton:

These cyclists obviously know nothing at all about physics. For maximum speed and efficiency, streamlining and low rolling resistance are far more important then weight. In fact you reach a point when lighter wheels will actually detract from the vehicles performance due to the flywheel effect. This states that it is possible to store more potential energy within a rotating body that has more mass then a similar rotating body of less mass. In simple terms – the cyclist with the heavier set of wheels when traversing a flat surface at maximum speed will build up more potential energy in the wheels of the bike to be used to good effect when climbing up hill. i.e. the extra momentum due to the higher mass will prevent the bike from slowing down as quickly as the lower mass bike. This also explains why men tend to be faster cyclists then women (cos they’re bigger and heavier). It also explains why women with large breasts tend to be faster then women with small breasts. 😕

[Fabrice Menard]

quote Doug Pulver:

Fabrice.

I don’t know about durability but have you considered water slide decals? These are the decals you used on model cars and planes when you were a kid. There is water slide decal paper you run through an inkjet printer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_slide_decal

yes considered this but did not find large format rolls in Europe, and it would require varnishing after applying on the rims, for sure the customers will not accept.

[Steve Morgan]

We do have hills in the UK but they tend to be short and quite steep rather than the much longer and slightly easier inclines of the French Alpes for instance. Where are you?

[Fabrice Menard]

quote Steve Morgan:

A couple of years ago I was told that Oracle 751 cast material had a weight of 80grm/m². I have printed successfully onto 751 and it is available in transparent as well so try the clear as an overlaminate. 851 also has clear and maybe 951 which is 0.005mm thinner.

thanks for the tip, I will try this at first.

I will also try liquid laminate over cast vinyl, looks not too expensive for the surfaces I make, it could be ok, not more than 2 or 3m2 each time. Found that http://www.solprotect.com product is easy to apply. If volume goes higher I could go for a daige easycoat liquid laminator.

[Fabrice Menard]

quote Steve Morgan:

We do have hills in the UK but they tend to be short and quite steep rather than the much longer and slightly easier inclines of the French Alpes for instance. Where are you?

I live in north east of France, very close to Vosges hills with both short steep and long (10-20km) easier inclines.