Views on modern day college courses

[Gareth.Lewis]

Well for the theory, he could read through the archives on the various forums on here. For the practical there are loads of tutorials on here. He could do alot worse than to have access to this site for a few months, surely. And cheaper than a course too I would imagine………

[Gary Birch]

Hi Gareth
I hadn’t considered that mate but a good suggestion.

I just think that it is time wasted going to college and not learning. He has done it for a year and I think that both him and the business would benefit from him not going next year if you see what I mean. Sad but true I think.

Cheers

Gary

[Gareth.Lewis]

Hi Gary,

I know it is a hard decision, but two/three things….

I left school with nothing, I realise that was over twenty years ago but I never went to college to learn any of what I now know, all learned on the job. I have no way of knowing for sure if the college course would have been of benefit to me, but the other way seemed to work ok for me, being shown by my ‘elders’.

My dear old dad always used to say (when I was learning to drive) ‘you’ll only start to learn properly once you’ve passed the test and go out on the road every day alone’.

So maybe that is true in other situations (like your chap’s college course) too.

There may though be some benefits from a specific course like the roland wrapping one for example. But only if it is backed up with day to day ‘real life’ experience afterwards.

Cheers!

Gareth

[Robert Lambie]

I’m going to be blunt, but these college courses, well two that i know of in Scotland. are crap!

i spent a few hours talking with those teaching in Glasgow school of building and printing. very nice guys and lovely surroundings etc for students to work in. but it is FAR from reality and "no disrespect" but those teaching are too far behind in modern ways of making signs for the students to have any real kind of benefit.
i left a pile of job applications with them and i recon i have had about 15 employees from them over a three year period. and you guessed it… none lasted. two of the guys i took from college told me they reconed they had learned more working with me for two weeks than they did the full 18 months or so, that they were at college. so that, coupled with my own views on sign colleges more or less made my mind up for me. i dont see the point in putting them through college and gaining papers then to walk out on you the next day. yes i know its a gamble you have to take etc maybe just me…
i heard of sign firms sending staff only for them to start ditching classes a month or so into the course. whilst others that hardly ever attended where still given papers at the end of the course…
dont get me wrong, im not trying to tar them all with the same brush, just giving my views from a fair number of EX-Students views passed onto me as well as my own experiences.

[Gary Birch]

Thanks for your views guys, I appreciate it. They pretty much mirror what my thoughts are.

At the college he goes to they have a Versacamm and a router. Joe hasn’t seen either of them even turned on yet.

Like has been said the tutor seems way behind the times and doesn’t seem to have any grasp of how things are done in a modern day sign business.

Rob I know you have mentioned about you running courses before, is this still going to happen??

Cheers and thanks again

Gary

[John Harding]

Well i went to college and got my NVQ in signmaking, I wanted a paper quailification and I did it in no time at all, some numpties were there when I started and still there when I left and will be at it for years and at the end of it they will never hold a job down. Does it prepare you for the practical aspects of the job -no, it does scratch the surface but no more.

It did make getting a cscs card easier and guess it still does and we probably all have to have qualifications to fart one one day. Im already qualified in that too btw. 😀

john

[Gary Birch]

Thanks John. To be honest the piece of paper is the only positive I can see if he stays at college.

I am not going to make any rash decisions but am going to have a good think about it.

Cheers

Gary

[Paul Hughes]

those who can, do……. those who can not, teach (!) 😀

I did a city and guilds in sign work just over 20years ago and my employer did not think much of the course then, looks like nothings changed.

i would be telling the tutor all the time that’s not how we do it, my employer came in the one day to observe and he started offering other students advice and tips, which they thought were much better than anything they were being told on the course.

i had a girl come in for works experience who had done a graphic design degree, she was useless, had not even been told the basics, she said she had learned more in two weeks with us than in 3 years on the degree course. mad.

Paul

[Gary Birch]

Cheers Paul

I have to say that the tutor sounds like the same guy who taught you. Setting projects which would never have a place in a modern day sign shop and when told so just won’t have it.

I’ll be honest I am 90% certain he won’t be going next year. Maybe not even the 4 weeks he has left this year too.

Thanks for your input.

Gary

[Alan Stuart]

I share the view that there is no effective course as yet.

The ex full time students that I have come across have a very in-adequate grasp of the work required in exchange for pay.

Knowing a few tutors, I thought they were great and knowledgeable but it was the class room environment and curriculum that was wrong.

Instead of taking 9 months to teach letter construction and finish up with one nice board at the end of it, it should have been an industrial workshop that on day one they were shown and involved in, safely building aluminum towers, using chop saws, welding,large vinyl applications, hard fixings to walls etc.
Immediate demonstration and involvement in a working situation is the only thing that works.
Instead we have a generation that can only do a bit on the PC and stick small stickers on vans.

Yep I am a bit frustrated with the situation, as we are all looking for staff with some type of qualification,
but as such they want top pay when they really are of little immediate benefit, hence the teaching on the job starts again on your pay roll………

It must be on Saturdays that I vent my simmering whingey-ness !!!!!!!!!!

[Brenton West]

I am (er um ) mature, have just been back to art college (sorry we are meant to call it Uni.) to do a degree in photography. It is something I have always wanted to do and have come out of it will some skills that I thought I would never have. Unfortunately the skills I have learned ( I wont bore you with details) I had to learn myself from books an manuals, many (not all ) of the tutors are there because its a cushy job. The people who wanted to learn just got on with it , the others did as little as possible.There is little discipline and poor attendance from some of the younger students. To obtain a degree all you basically had to do was turn up! I was shocked at the standards that you need to get a qualification. So if anyone is employing anyone with a bit of paper make sure that you get lots of references!

[Mike Fear]

I think the problem is what others have pointed out – it would be far more effective to take someone on, and either teach them yourself, or send them on any short specialist courses they need for the job ( like wrapping etc… ) as part of their work.

Lets be honest, if any of us were looking to take someone on, would the fact they have an NVQ in Signmaking or whatever the qualification is, actually impress us, or make us think ‘great, they must be full qualified already and will be able to start tomorrow in the thick of it’ ?

The college should be teaching them how to create vector graphics from scratch as a main point ( how many so called signmakers come on here every week who cant do this most basic thing !) , then how to turn that graphic into cut or printed vinyl ready for applying – I’d bet this is what covers the majority of the work most of us do day to day ?, and probably covers 90% of what most of our customers need.

Making signs ( the actual panel ) isnt particularly hard, and there are plenty of suppliers who sell all the parts needed – making the stuff to go on there is the part that takes skill and cant be bought off the shelf.

[Gary Birch]

Thanks for all your responses guys.

I have pulled him out of college now, I knew the answer already but just wanted someone else’s input, from people in the trade.

I will start and look out for courses now which will be beneficial to the company, they may not be sign related though.

Cheers and thanks again

Gary

[John Wilson]

Funny enough I went to a "college" in Glasgow to do signmaking…. what a waste of time, I was only going to try getting away from garments and into signs more

Lucky enough I missed the first 3 weeks or I would have been even more bored, think I lasted about 2 weeks before chucking it in

No digital plotter, scarce resources was only part of the problem

The lecturer was so out of date it was unreal, telling pupils that you’ll make £500 on each job you do at least…. even on simple vans

Before starting a shop frontage he got everyone to draw a scale drawing of the building on paper and design the sign from there…. by time you’d done that the other guy would have fitted the job already

Honestly it was a joke, i ended up leaving when I was asked where I was going one day, I replied the toilet only to be told to sit down and ask if I could go :lol1:

[Gary Birch]

quote John Wilson:

Honestly it was a joke, i ended up leaving when I was asked where I was going one day, I replied the toilet only to be told to sit down and ask if I could go :lol1:

Lol Did you have to put your hand up first ?? that is bringing back those dark distant memories of school back.

Cheers

Gary

[John Wilson]

quote Gary Birch:

quote John Wilson:

Honestly it was a joke, i ended up leaving when I was asked where I was going one day, I replied the toilet only to be told to sit down and ask if I could go :lol1:

Lol Did you have to put your hand up first ?? that is bringing back those dark distant memories of school back.

Cheers

Gary

Honestly that’s what he expected me to do aswell, ok maybe if it was in the middle of a lecture then yes I’d excuse myself but just sitting "drawing" my sign

I’m not going back 10 years here, this was only about 2-3 years ago…. late 20’s at the time so no way was I asking a old guy if it was ok to relieve myself :lol1:

[Liam Pattison]

I personally think every day he’s at college he is loosing experience he could be gaining working with you.

[Neil English]

I have an NVQ in signmaking, obtained from Hammersmith and West London College, It was a one day a week course for 2 yrs, I was working for a sign company at the same time. Basically the tutor learnt more from me than I did from him as he wasnt up to date with the industry. Only good thing really is the qualification.

[Jason Davies]

quote Neil English:

I have an NVQ in signmaking, obtained from Hammersmith and West London College, It was a one day a week course for 2 yrs, I was working for a sign company at the same time. Basically the tutor learnt more from me than I did from him as he wasnt up to date with the industry. Only good thing really is the qualification.

I think that this is probably the most important comment so far – the qualification, you both have already committed a significant amount of time to this course it would be a shame to lose the qualification. Okay it may not be much use to you, and it is pretty low level but I’m guessing your apprentice isn’t too highly qualified (no disrespect intended) and if he does succeed at least it shows to possible future employers that he is able to commit and obtain an academic qualification which should stand him in good stead.
In my experience many lecturers come from industry with the best intention (especially at this level) but have no idea how to teach or to construct a suitable and relevant programme of study, they just look at the requirements of the qualification and rely on their experience to slot projects or assignments into it and of course as they stay in the job these become stale and infuriating to many of their students. The sad thing is is that most of the time they are completely unaware of what is actually happening in the real world and what the students think of the course.
However the final qualification in my view demonstrates a commitment above and beyond the content of the course. Send him on extra courses but I would insist on completion of the academic qualification.

My two penneth