Versacamm print/laminate/cut

[Kevin Flowers]

Gavin
its to do with the expansion & contraction of the vinyl, when you print & cut the heaters are still on & the vinyl is hot. When you remove it vinyl cools & contracts, it will also not expand as much even when warm because of the laminate. All you can do is do the adjustment whilst cold & know the setting when you are going to do a normal print & cut.

Kev

[Peter Mindham]

If I read this correctly, you are laminating prior to cutting? Could the laminate be interfering with the sensors and distorting the location of the registration marks? Just a thought. Does it work OK if you do not laminate?

Peter

[John Childs]

Are you sure about expansion being the problem Kevin?

Our JV3 is set for 35 degree pre-heat and 35 degree print heat. A day later we laminate at 50 degrees and then contour cut cold and we’ve never had any problems such as Gavin describes.

We have had the cutter wandering off over long lengths, we’re talking over five metres here. I put it down to high acceleration making the vinyl slip in the pinch rollers. Slowing the cutter right down cured that.

[Gavin MacMillan]

I hope it’s not expansion. I would say this seems unlikely as were talking about 5-10mm over a 500-1000mm job, surely that’s too much for expansion? Would the image not start to distort?

Peter, I’ll try it leaving the laminate off the reg marks. I also think this is unlikely as it has to line up with all 4 reg marks? Not sure, this is new to me so I’ll try any suggestions.

It’s a nightmare problem as by the time it goes wrong there’s already a lot of work and time put in. I’ve a couple of pint/lam/cut jobs to do today so will try as above and any other suggestions

Cheers

Gavin

[Chris Wool]

i presume that the cut is only adrift in the length not the width.
make sure that under media options in the rip you have media calibration turned off.

chris

[Gavin MacMillan]

Hi Chris,

I’m using signlab p&c manager and can’t find this option, any idieas?

I have found another option though – in print cutting – this has a drop down box with options print only, cut only, print and cut, print laminate cut. I wonder if it would help if the machine new what it was doing? But then it’s sent as a print/cut with reg marks so it should know anyway?

[Stephen Morriss]

As Chris said and also cut with the heaters off and do an environmental match (in the menu)

If you have the heaters on the vinyl gets heated up while the printer is aligning with the marks so by the time it’s done that the vinyl has had time to heat and expand just before it’s cut.
It shouldn’t make as much difference as you’ve indicated though, usually only a few mil.

Steve

[Gavin MacMillan]

That makes sense, I’ll try having no heat and see how it goes. I’ll be delighted if this works, a nice easy fix!

[Kevin Flowers]

quote John Childs:

Are you sure about expansion being the problem Kevin?

Our JV3 is set for 35 degree pre-heat and 35 degree print heat. A day later we laminate at 50 degrees and then contour cut cold and we’ve never had any problems such as Gavin describes.

We have had the cutter wandering off over long lengths, we’re talking over five metres here. I put it down to high acceleration making the vinyl slip in the pinch rollers. Slowing the cutter right down cured that.

John
you are cutting on a seperate cutter, with a print & cut machine there is a issue with leaving the heater on when cutting as others have said, just didn’t word it correctly.

Kev

[John Childs]

I understand that Kevin, but if expansion due to heat was a problem surely it would be more likely to manifest itself on my equipment than on a Versacamm.

If the vinyl did expand noticably by being heated during printing, then surely I could never get an accurate cut when doing it cold after it had contracted back

Likewise, on a print and cut machine, any expansion that did occur should automatically be accounted for by doing both operations at the same temperature,

Does that make sense?

[Gavin MacMillan]

Yeah, I’m with you John. Only thing about a print and cut machine is that while printing the vinyl has much more time to heat than while cutting?

I’ll be laminating later and cutting probably in the morning so will do this with no heat and see what happens.

Gavin

[Stephen Morriss]

John the software takes size changes into account when checking the marks so even though the vinyl will be slightly larger when printing your separate cutter won’t heat the vinyl part way through the measuring/aligning process.
This is one of the problems with a print & cut machine, most of the time though it’s not a problem, and if you remember to turn off the heaters then there’s usually no problem.

Steve

[Rod Young]

Lots of good advice. Here are some more tidbits that perhaps can help.

With respect to scheduling print-cut-lamination jobs:

1. In the Print and Cut Manager, go Queue menu >> Properties >> Scheduling tab.
2. Set "Auto schedule print and cut jobs" = "RIP and Print now, Cut Later"
3. The reason for this is you want the cut portion to be paused until after lamination has been performed.

With respect to compensating for stretching of media:

1. In SignLab, go File menu >> Print and Cut Setup >> Printer tab.
2. Tick the "Account for stretching of print" checkbox.
3. Set the length and width scaling factors as appropriate (see help file for measuring this).

There are SignLab training videos to help you with print-cut-laminate jobs:

Print & Cut to a Separate Printer and Cutter (text only)
http://www.cadlink.com/infoSource/nfo_sl_prntCutSep.php

Printing & Cutting from SignLab (for both hybrid printer and separate cutter)
http://www.cadlink.com/infoSource/nfo_sl_printCutSL.php

Printing & Cutting from 3rd Party Graphics Application (both hybrid and separate cutter)
http://www.cadlink.com/infoSource/nfo_s … t3Part.php

Cheers,

Rod at CADlink

[Peter Shaw]

quote :

it can be a complete mile out.

Can you give some measurements to help quantify this?

If it’s .5mm – 1mm out its likely to be the alignment settings in the Versacamm. If its really miles out its something more sinister.

For your interest, I check the alignment occasionally, always forget to do the environment match (!), put bleed on small stuff, always have the heaters on, forget the exaggeration of vinyl expansion and rarely have a problem nowadays.

Peter

[Alex Wilson]

Hi All

I had exactly the same problem with my Versacamm and it took an engineer 2 hours to sort out. It is due to the scan & feed % settings not being adjusted properly and once sorted has been no problems since.

Best wishes
Alex

[Gordon Forbes]

I very rarely get the versacamm (cadet) to cut a very accurate contour anyway no matter what you do. It always out somewhere 1/2 to 1 mm in places no matter what Environmental check, print align, set in service menu etc etc if it does on occasion it doesn’t last very long I am.
I am going to try the bleed as I haven’t done this yet just a bit worried trying it.

Goop

[Gavin MacMillan]

Hmmm. I’ve cut my prints from yesterday. They started off looking good but by the end the cut line is a mile – 10-15mm out and ruined my job! Some of the contours have cut fine but by the time it went to do the weed boxes it has cut through the tops of the letters. I need to study the info on the links (thanks Rod) but that’s not on. In fact it not being very close to perfect is not on, this machine is sold as a p&c machine and I’m sure some messing will get it doing so. Otherwise it’s time to call the engineer.

Gavin… not having a good start to the day!

[Stephen Morriss]

If it’s 10 – 15mm out then it’s defiantly an alignment/setup problem. Is the unit new and was it setup by the engineer who delivered it or is it second hand and you just took delivery.

These printers do need setting up correctly when installed and do need occasional maintenance.

You said you need to adjust the scan slightly, I can’t remember which way that is.
Anyway you have to be very accurate with the setup, 0.1mm out on the setup will get exaggerated over a long job.

Steve

[Gavin MacMillan]

Hi Steve,

I’ve adjusted the scan, hopefully be better now. It’s a new machine and after some messing around in will now print/cut pretty well. I’m trying this job again and going to use 4 pinch rollers. It was so far out it must have slipped slightly?!?

Not following the rules here as I’m going to be doing the whole lot in a couple of hours. Is outgasing likely to be a problem? I know the customer and the vehicle is unlikely to outlast the graphics.

[Peter Shaw]

If the alignment is that far out, you probably won’t correct it with the user adjustment. You need to get into the engineering menu.

As its a new machine, why not get the proper support from the supplier?

Peter

[Stephen Morriss]

Peters right Gavin, the supplier should have set this machine up correctly to start off with.

How long is the graphic your doing, is it 1m or 10m?

Steve

[Gavin MacMillan]

Aye, cheers for all the help and suggestions. It’s time to get it sorted, the graphic is only 1m long. It does have lots of cutting, but it should be able to handle that.

I’m having to cut the clear separate and then apply it over the face, this was not the plan when buying the machine. The thing is though, without the laminate the cut is fine, I’m sending the same job right now and it’ll cut find when it goes as a p&c?!?

Time to call the supplier/engineer

Gavin

[Philip Houston]

Hi Guys!

Let me tell you my story!
I bought a new 30" versacamm July 2006, installed by the engineer, quick training and then we slowly got the hang of it.
We had trouble printing, then wet laminating then cutting.
It would be in register all the way down the left side of the sticker run but was further out the more it cut to the left hand side.

We neglected to laminate some jobs untill we decided to call out the engineer from Roland.
He came about a week and a half later.
We informed him what it had been doing & showed him the proof of a previous job.
We left him to sort it out while we worked in another area.
One hour later he came into us saying he can find no fault.
I asked him to take us through his process of print-laminate-cut.
We had been doing no different to him but this time the cut results were better.
"Great job!" I thought untill he said he’d send me a bill for £190.00 + vat for re-training me. It caught me of guard while I was dealing with a client at the time. I rang him within the hour because I felt something wasn’t just right with the visit. Asking him why I was being charged, He said I required the training. But I’m curious why it works correctly now even though we were using the same process? There was a silence! Are you sure you didn’t tweek the software? I asked. I’m affended by your acquisitions. he said. And by the way, the bill is only £150.00 + vat. I must note that this engineer did not install the system.
I don’t mind at all, paying £150.00 to get the machine to run perfectly but I sensed something was wrong.

Finding this thread strenthens my thoughts.
Now what should I do about it.
Philip Houston.

[Phill Fenton]

quote Philip Houston:

Now what should I do about it.
Philip Houston.

Don’t pay the bill – the machine should have been set up properly in the first place. If the machine is now running better after the engineers visit then some adjustments must have been made. This suggests it wasn’t set up properly in the first place and you shouldn’t be paying to rectify their mistake

[Ian Bingham]

hi there
ive had this once or twice, is this the problem:
after you put the job back into the versacamm, when you go into versaworks (if that’s what you have) do you reset the media width? DON’T just change the print only to cut only and don’t change any other settings, changing the media width even if the rollers are in a different position will cause miss alignment

[Chris Wool]

quote :

It would be in register all the way down the left side of the sticker run but was further out the more it cut to the left hand side.

this is usually cured by a environment check.
i have never heard of roland charging for a warranty call out or am i behind the times.

when you say wet lamination do you mean applying a laminate wet soapy water or applying a liquid laminate

chris

[Chris Wool]

quote Ian Bingham:

hi there
ive had this once or twice, is this the problem:
after you put the job back into the versacamm, when you go into versaworks (if that’s what you have) do you reset the media width? DON’T just change the print only to cut only and don’t change any other settings, changing the media width even if the rollers are in a different position will cause miss alignment

sorry ian i can not agree with that statement.
as long as the outer rollers are out side the dots and even if they are not in the same original place, once the machine has found all the dots then a new page size and o o is set. sending the cut file to the machine which is altered to suit slue or stretch buy the cutter.

the roland system in my opinion is superb in both ease of use and accuracy as long as you take the time to set it up correctly.

i also use a graphtec cutter alignment system which is very good but the roland is just that bit better.

take time to try and understand what is happening and work with it.

Chris

[Philip Houston]

Thanks guys for the advise so far!
As you can see I’m new to this forum and I’m surprised with your quick response. Thank you.

The printed vinyl is layed flat on a clean worktop, water is misted over it using one of those spray bottles from the garden centre. (the plunger type that causes a vaccuum-everyone should have one!)
The laminate backing is removed & the laminate film layed down in one piece sandwiching the layer of sprayed water.
Then a mist of water on top of the laminate.
Then using a 6" screenprinting squeegie (again everyone should have one), I squeegie out the water starting from the centre.
I’ve checked by measuring and there is never a difference to do with stretching.
Regarding the bill I’m afraid the cheque has already gone.
But I feel that with the right information that you can provide me, I should go back to them with my querie.
Maybe send the a link to this thread.
Thanks again .
Philip Houston – (mod-edit)

[Chris Wool]

Philip do you do environment checks ?

and you really need to learn how to laminate dry damp backing paper is no good to anyone or buy a laminator not too expensive for the 30 inch width.

to prove a point
print and cut with the reg marks on. but lower the knife pressure by about a third.

then with out removing the vinyl align the reg marks with auto find, then send the cut file that the program generated.

it should cut over the previous cut

chris

[Ian Bingham]

Hi Chris
maybe i didn’t explain it clear enough
in versa works first you would get media width and adjust setting for your media, the select print only, rip then print,
Next take out the media laminate it,
Next put it back in the machine and the only setting you would change is print only to cut only, if you mistakenly get the media width again and rip it again the machine WILL loose registration even if it dose find all reg marks
I have no problem in registration with the versa camm cutting up to 2mts, using bleed on the image also helps,
I agree it is a great and accurate machine if use properly, but it can be easy to make simple mistakes if your not care full
Ian

[Ian Bingham]

PS Philip
Go and buy an emseal or an easy taper save sooooo much time, well worth it, every one should have one
Ian

[Peter Shaw]

I never cease to be amazed by the number of times people report that they have paid for a machine which is installed, then they have problems and come here for a solution.

Surely part of the price paid involves a decent installation and training program. If this does not take place satisfactorily I would have thought it necessary to deal with the supplier.

To pay another party for training when the original supplier failed to deliver is ridiculous.

The real problem is that this industry has too many box shifter suppliers who do not have the expertise to support and too many weak customers who not insist on getting what they pay for.

I also note that supplier names are rarely mentioned. I wonder if some naming and shaming might help – or would the list be too long!!

[Philip Houston]

Hi Peter!

I may have not made it clear, The supplier of the versacamm & the last engineer who came to fix the problem both work for the same company.

Sorry about that.

[Peter Shaw]

Philip,

I’m not sure that’s even worse! A supplier that you spent a substantial amount of money with wants to use his own engineer to squeeze bit more!!

My rant still stands!!!

Peter

[Philip Houston]

I’m still running into trouble with the print-lam-cut on my machine.
It’s still off on the cutting!!
I am getting better results when I manually alignment but that takes time.
The auto alignment must be off still.
Oh dear!!

[Gavin MacMillan]

I’ve got mine sorted now, the main issue was the sh*t clear I was using that came with the machine, I had to have the weight so high I think the friction was a major factor. I’ve changed to a much thinner film and the results are much better.

Also instead of doing small adjustments on the scan/feed settings, I reset them to 0 and done a test print from there and adjusted the setting accordingly.

I’ve also found that the heat is not a major issue, and often leave the heaters on when cutting as they take a while to cool. Other than that my only other tips are to keep it to short runs, use bleed or throw a wobbly on the phone to your supplier!

G

[Peter Shaw]

For print/laminate/cut, try the following tips:

Make sure there is no laminate in the area where the rubber rollers are.

Ensure the metal guides are clean underneath. They can accumulate glue etc and cause friction. You can remove them completely for the cut.

Reduce the 2 speed settings under Cut Control button to 15.

If it is a long run make sure the edge of the laminated vinyl doesn’t keep hitting the floor

After this you are in the hands of a higher power, so make sure there was enough bleed on the original artwork!

Peter

[Martin Oxenham]

We were getting this a lot. Damn annoying. A few things to try….
Make sure when you print that the wheels and metal guides are not on the extreme edge of the vinyl, have the wheels about an inch in then when you come to cut don’t use the guides at all as mentioned in the last post. Also make sure the cutting pressure does not need to be too high as I think this drags the material off square. if this is the case then Fit a new blade.