vehicle wrapping and box van, advice needed please?

[David Hammond]

No you don’t need to use a cast wrap film for the sides of the box.

We’ve used MD5A in the past, and whilst some may disagree, a quality monomeric MD3, would probably suffice too (assuming you’re printing it) even cut vinyl, M7 would suffice, and the M7A will make fitting large panels much quicker and easier.

If it’s already wrapped, and you’re intending to go over the top, it may be worth using a blockout vinyl. Or just strip the thing.

Something like this – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7TQ8ninPGc&list=PLrl9cl8ANt03XCqOnzGfIuCE3fIiYin8h&index=2

[Gary Forbes]

Or just strip the thing.

exactly what I was thinking david. just strip the vinyl and then letter it?

[Jeff]

Agreed, stripping the vinyl would be the better option.
I would strip the vinyl and use polymeric digital vinyl with a gloss laminate.
has the cab been wrapped also?
have you to wrap the cab?

[Robert Lambie]

It really depends on what part of the vehicle you are working on.

* For anything on the sides and rear, I would use grey-back adhesive, Polymeric Digital vinyl with a Laminate.

* Unless there is actually complete coverage of the front cab unit, spoiler etc, then again, Polymeric digital and laminate would be what I would use.

* If the cab unit and spoiler have to be completely covered/wrapped, then I would use a digital wrapping cast and laminate for this area only.

* As for covering over the existing box wrap. Personally, I would rather remove the existing wrap, clean it and start fresh. Just explain that ANY imperfections of the existing wrap, from bubbles, scratches, chips, shrinkage, grime and in particular, “panel joins”, will ALL be emphasised and stand out more, once the new vinyl is fitted over the top and will only make your work look bad.
Put that in writing in an email, but state you are only advising on this, and will fit on top of you would prefer NOT to incur the removal charge.

Ask your fitter how much he wants for removing the vinyl first and add a “minimum” of 50% to that for yourself, and tell your customer there will be a “Graphics & Adhesive Removal Charge” at ex-amount£ per hour. Remember, all chemicals, paper towels, rags, bin bags etc for the removal will end up out of your costs unless your freelancer includes this in their price.

[Karen White]

i have done a few box vans over time and like you i have had to sub out the installations.
I have used image perfect and MD5 polymeric. no problems whatsoever.

best of luck 😃

[Leslie Anderson]

Davi, Jeff, Gary, Robert and Karen, thank you thank you! ❤

I went for Image Perfect polymeric digital in the end. There has been some delays with the vehicle, so I will let you know how I get on.

I think the fitter is reluctant to strip it and probably why he didn’t suggest this to me in the first place.
he says a full days labour. how long would something like this take to strip? just an approximate time?

[David Stevenson]

He’s probably reluctant to strip it as there’s a possibility it’ll leave all the glue and he’ll have to spend hours removing it. Been there, got several t-shirts lol. If he strips it and doesn’t remove the glue and someone wraps over it it’ll look horrendous as the glue never comes off uniform and will show under the new vinyl 🙁 Got a t-shirt for that too as the customer wasn’t willing to pay for the extra time to remove the glue. That van looked nice from afar but far from nice!

[Robert Lambie]

There are a lot of things that can come into play when removing vinyl.
It really depends on what type of vinyl they are stripping, how long it has been on, whether it is being removed in cold weather or warm, indoors or out blah blah.

A good honest freelancer is hard to come by. and by good, I mean at their job!
I would ask for a fixed price for the removal, but remind them you are also paying them for the installation, so a competitive rate is expected.

[Leslie Anderson]

Thanks again Robert and everyone for your advice. 👍
I have emailed the fitter and outlined some of what has been said here, so I am hoping to hear back with more definitive prices.
i think I am going to have to make myself yet another job process sheet for reference when work like this comes in. 🤓

[Robert Lambie]

Job process sheets are a good thing, Leslie. They are things we should all have within the workplace. it’s a thing you can always chop and change to improve over time. very good for when you bring in staff and want them to follow your lead. 👍

[David Hammond]

Agreed, I like having a process/system when working, as soon as I start free styling it, the wheels usually fall off pretty quickly

[Dan]

Do you have an example of one you can share, Rob?

In regards to wrapping the vehicle, I can’t really add anymore than what’s been mentioned. Polymeric on the side and Cast on the front.

Personally I would remove any existing graphics.

[Myles Brewer]

Hi All,

I’d just like to resurrect this post if I can as I have a request for a very similar job but it is purely to cover the flat side panels on a box van that has no current graphics.

The customer is just wanting to cover the shadow left after previous cut vinyl graphics were removed, because when it’s washed, the previous name is very visible!!

It will all be just white with no print for now. He may decide in future to add his name/contact etc.

He plans to keep the van for at least another 5 years.

So my question is, would you use a laminated unprinted digital vinyl or just a white sign vinyl?

I presume a laminated digital would be more robust against potential scratches & general road wear?

I have good experience in fitting large window & wall graphics using full roll width (1220 & 1370mm) vinyls but wondering if an air release type would make fitting quicker/easier? The surface is completely smooth with no rivets.

Thanks

[David Hammond]

I would just use a sign vinyl, air release would be even better.something like M7A or Image Perfect will do the iob

[David Hammond]

Do your first drop square to the edge, then with tape mark a 15-20mm overlap, align.next drop to that and away you go.

[Myles Brewer]

Perfect thanks David,

Not forgetting to work from back to front, so overaps are facing backwards!!😁

And do you think that the opacity of the white M7a would be sufficient to completely cover the shadow writing? see attached

[David Hammond]

Hmm, I would try something like G101 and a clay cloth on that first. Depending how badly it’s engrained you still might see the old lettering through it, regardless of brand or even greyback.

[Myles Brewer]

Ahh, that’s interesting David. I know the owner said that it’s actually got worse the longer he’s had it & the more it’s been washed! You’d think over time it would blend in more as the previously covered areas weathered.

I’ve never tackled cleaning something like that or using clay cloths. I’m presuming that would be pretty time consuming?

[David Hammond]

I had a customer come in with a similar van, wanting it wrapping for the same reason. I took a look, got some adhesive remover and rag, tried a small spot and it came off.

Sold him a bottle of adhesive remover and sent him on his way 😂

If it’s got glue still on the body, it will get worse as more dirt sticks to it.

Clay cloths are great for getting rid of contaminates, I use G101 as it’s a.degreaser too and a little bit goes a long way when diluting it.

[Myles Brewer]

As far as I can tell I think this is pretty much just the contrast between the really clean original paintwork where the lettering was & the weathered oxidised rest of the panels. No real issues with adhesive needing removal. I had thought about something like T-cut or something similar but again that’s a long job!!

I think I may have to have another chat with him & see how he feels about getting a detailing/valeting company to give it a go over 1st or else trying a sample patch of M7a maybe over the worst bit & seeing if anything is visible through it.

[Gordon Smithard]

Whenever I get ghosting of previous lettering showing up, I go over the edges of the ghosting with a bit of T’cut to blend it into the background. I won’t get rid of it but it makes it stand out a lot less.

[Myles Brewer]

Hi Gordon,

Is that before you cover it & if so, can you ever see it still through the vinyl?

[Gordon Smithard]

Depends what you’re covering it with, I find yellow is the worse for showing up stuff that’s underneath, but I can’t imagine even that’ll show up any ghosting if it was cleaned up properly. When I’ve T’cutted the edges of old, removed lettering I didn’t cover it at all, I was simply replacing the old lettering and didn’t want the edges of the old bits to show up.

[Robert Lambie]

@Myles-Brewer
I would send him a quick email outlining the basics of what’s required and let him decide.
What you have been told, is pretty much what you need to put to him, mate.

Option 1
Wrap the box van in a white Polymeric vinyl.
Bubble-free or not, this will need fitted, but first, tapped up with application tape.
92% blockout

£00:00+vat

Option 2
Wrap the box van in a white, grey-backed Polymeric vinyl.
Bubble-free or not, this will need fitted, but first, tapped up with application tape.
98% blockout

£00:00+vat (more expensive option)

Option 3
Additional Service
To T-Cut and Polish each side of the box. This will reduce the old text
Ghosting and help prevent being able to see it once covered by Option 2

£40+vat per hour

If you feel you need to speak to the customer face to face. Still send him it in writing to avoid any follow-up issues. However, if speaking to him in person, i would take two offcuts of Option 1 & 2 vinyl.
Get the truck parked in direct sunlight and put the two bits of vinyl over the most visible area of text ghosting. This will let him see first hand how it might look once completed. (without t-cut)
He can actually see how it will be and make his decision then.

Specifically make it 3 teir pricing, so you are upselling as you go along.

best of luck mate. 👍

[Myles Brewer]

Hi Rob,

I actually know the fella pretty well & he’s a decent sort, but I always prefer to email anyway if only to keep a reference for myself as the old grey matter doesn’t keep information as well as it used to!!🤣

I think the greyback may really be the best/safest option anyway as that definitely shouldn’t have any show through.

I’m surprised to see you suggesting adding application tape to the vinyl before fitting!! Surely you would only need this on cut vinyl graphics but not when applying full sheets? This job is specifically just to cover the flat sides with white unprinted vinyl to make it look tidy & hide the shadowing of the old graphics.

I do just wonder if it would be any better to add a laminate for extra durability against scratching etc. ?

[David Hammond]

I did wonder the same re app tape. I would do it off the roll, no need to laminate.

Regardless of how well you know the customer, always cross the T’s and dot the I’s. From experience they are typically the worse ones! Especially if you don’t follow the usual process.

Good idea to educate the customer, it’s also quite intimidating if they go elsewhere and starts asking about things they typically wouldn’t know about.

[Robert Lambie]

Well, I am assuming you are fitting it dry, and you are NOT going to laminate, unprinted vinyl.
The material will be around 1370mm wide, so not the easiest to handle.
Depending on the weather in your area just now, or if you have a heated workshop to hold the box van, handling it can be even more difficult to floodcoat the sides of a truck. Even a cool workshop, a colder vehicle body and unlaminated digital media can be very temperamental to repeatedly lift and lay without creases, vinyl shattering, etc.

However, if the plan is to floodcoat the sides using a wet application, then handling it will be easier to position and get it into place. but that’s where the benefits stop and issues can rise.

Here is an old video of me installing solid colour panels of Oracal 751 Cast, only 1200mm wide. (17 years ago) and I still have an application tape applied. this time it was for the complete opposite reason. The weather was very hot, but I only apply vinyl dry and lifting and laying in direct sunshine is a no go due to high-tack on contact, as well as the vinyl creasing, stretching, etc. However, due to the humid hot weather, a downpour happened, followed by thunder and lightning. At the time I thought it would be funny to just keep the video following, while Andrew was hidden under another truck, out of the way while filming. 🤣
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFtGJnA5v6Y

[Myles Brewer]

Ha Ha!! Yes I’ve watched that video before on here. That’s definitely just like the North West of Ireland!! 4 seasons in one day!

I’ve never had a shed to work from so have 22 years experience of working on all manner of vehicles & other exterior signage in all weather conditions from rain, sun, wind, hail, snow etc!!

With a job like this I’d probably be most worried about wind as you can dodge in & out of rain showers & just chamy down & continue, but wind would make this sort of fitting nearly impossible!!

I also find that making a horizontal hinge by slitting the backing paper around 1/3rd down & folding the backing paper back by approx 2cm either side of the slit allows you to line up the drop easily & tack it down along that point, then work up whilst gradually rolling the backing paper up as you go which helps hold the remaining vinyl in shape. Then just work down with gravity. The curve created by the backing paper as it’s removed also helps to keep the vinyl just off the surface until squeegeed if you hold a little bit of tension on the remaining vinyl below that curve.

It used to take me hours fitting large wide graphics as I found I was tense & terrified of messing up & creating creases & bubbles which in turn was almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. But gradually I learned to relax & also learned how the media reacted & moved. I also think (but it may just be in my head) that media in general has become more user friendly over the years & I’m not talking about air release which I’ve never really used & also never used wet fitting, other than for large frosted windows.

Not sure H&S would approve of straddling an A frame ladder like that now!!🤣 Sure we’ve all done it though!😱

[Robert Lambie]

@Myles-Brewer

Not forgetting to work from back to front, so overaps are facing backwards!!

If you want to be politically correct, start at the back and work your way forward. Otherwise, it makes no difference mate.
I have sat with a 3M technical expert of 30+ years and argued my point on several different instances of vinyl application on vehicles and this was one of numerous that i raised with them.

Does a layer of vinyl on the surface of a vehicle create drag?
Yes, it does. basically anything exposed, no matter how small, sitting proud of the flat surface creates an element of drag, including a layer of vinyl.

Will this layer of vinyl fail because of this drag?
No, not if it is fitted correctly, without application fluids.

Basically, due to widespread failures of the leading edge of vinyl on the likes of box trucks etc, it was decided by, let’s say “whoever”, that the drag was the cause. “In my view”, it was because they would not blame the widespread use of application fluids, such as soapy water, which was commonly used and advised by suppliers of the vinyl way back then. Understandable, because there was no bubble free vinyl, low tack adhesive, etc. Regardless, this is the real cause of vinyl overlapping panel failures which led to the myth of application direction being to blame.

Have a look at the attached image.
This side view of two overlapping panels of vinyl that have been applied wet. It shows the best case outcome of the application, and that is. Moisture trapped in the overlap.
The squeegee will hit the overlap like a ramp and will not be able to expel the soapy water trapped at the panel join. It will also lose pressure on the top flat of the vinyl due to the ramp motion, again, leading to the lack of properly expelling moisture beneath the two bits of vinyl.

Along comes contnual wind drag as the truck is traveling, coupled by possible shrinkage tension of the newly applied vinyl, and those overlaps will start to lift, leading to a fail.

It could be argued, this is just my opinion. But its an educated opinion of persoanly installing tens of thousands of these overlapping panels on thousands of trucks i have wrapped over the past 35 years and i can honestly say i have never once had a “truck panel join” fail.

Lets look at other scenarios…
If the wind drag on the side of a truck is enough to lift the leading edge of vinyl and make it fail. Why does every single vinyl graphic on a vehicle, not fail on the side that faces the front of the vehicle?
Because it has the same amount of drag, it is just not sticking to a layer of vinyl, but the actual paintwork of the vehicle.

Now lets say it is because the vinyl overlaps onto vinyl?
This being the case, every multi-layer cut vinyl job in the world would be failing on the leading side of the graphic.

Tram and train wraps travel in both directions. what happens there?
Again, it could be argued “some” of these may have edge sealent, butt-joins or even primers used. but the bottom line is, most dont.

Anyway, I am rambling on, so i will shut up. 🤔😂

[Myles Brewer]

🤣 Great rant there Rob & point very well made!

Like you say it’s obviously one of those odd things that has perhaps become an accepted way of doing things but without any real scientific or logical thinking.

I did actually think about the fact that most other vehicle graphics don’t fail at the leading edge which does make the argument null & void. But having said that, there is certainly no harm in doing it from back to front if it makes anyone with a little hint of OCD feel better!!🤣

I do 100% subscribe to the dry fitting method though & have never felt comfortable using liquids in any situation bar large interior windows.

It intrigues me these days to see all the paint protection films being fitted wet!! I presume they must be using specialist liquids which promote adhesion very quickly after fitting?