upgrading- to which machine?

[Robert Lambie]

if it were me in exact same same position ide say grenadier… it has come down in price and also good deals available on upgrades.. i wouldnt do the cadet plus… although wider its still same speed etc ide also insist on the machine comig with a bulk ink system. (these days that is not much to ask for)

[Colin Hibbitt]

hi robert,
Was recommended the grenadier or jv3 by my supplier of the cadet – are the inks the same as the cadet (actisol)
do you know any good suppliers or get striaght from bp

Also spandex trying to get us to look at their hp machines their popping down on tuesday

my biggest problem is getting it upstairs into my workshop??

[Robert Lambie]

Ink supplies… who are you using?

JV3 and grenadier are good machines, but grenadier (in my view) has the edge… i think its faster printing and has in built cut facilities.

I’ve had grenadier now two years, great bit of kit…

buy a few lengths of 2×2 and cut them to form a 3d rectangle, 9 rectangular box) will cost about £15 at most and take 15 minutes.
regardless of how, if that can be taken upstairs the machine will too…
(its just heavier, allot heavier)
ide rather buy the better kit than worry about a burst partition wall… 😉

[Colin Hibbitt]

hi robert,
weve had this converstation before – got ink down to £106 per litre from silverskies

print max phoned us 2 days ago offering it to us for £80.00 per litre ( i will wait and see when information comes through – they said it was actisol)

as for the stairs – where in a old warehouse upstairs to which its impossible to go up
the only way would be through the old fashion side door to which their are no stairs just an old hoist on the roof – i think it has to be a forklift or something

As for the grenidier who did you get yours from??

colin

[John Simpson]

quote Colin Hibbitt:

Also spandex trying to get us to look at their hp machines their popping down on tuesday
??

Colin,
I have just had engineer to my machine & while talking to him in general conversation i asked him which make of machine are you always going out to repair?
His reply was the HP machines.
Just thought i would mention it.

L J

[Wayne Cruickshank]

Hi Colin, we’ve had a JV3 for about 6 months now, best thing we ever bought! We considered a print & cut machine but now we have the Mimaki with separate cutter we can see the benefits…

Just a word of advice… when we took delivery of our machine the 2 guys who delivered it refused to carry it upstairs and said they’d happily watch us do it but if we "bend it, we mend it!" We sent them packing, with the machine, they came back the next day with 2 extra pairs of hands and, it seems, a better attitude!

[David Rowland]

as a solvent printer user (jv3 in my case), my advise is to look carefully at the small print, make sure you get a warranty/support package that caters for bulk ink, this is the most important thing as you are kinda alone and the ink is agressive to the parts of the machine, if used often you normally dont run into problems. Ask lots of questions so you got some form of understanding of how it works.

The new JV5 is amazing bit of kit, not sure on price tag but its very fast. The JV3 is fast and can print at various print resolutions and passes,

The good thing about a printer is no more weeding and layering of colours, so they are a worthwhile investment.

[Colin Hibbitt]

Thanks for input guys – im slowly narrowing down to grenadier or jv3/jv5

I like the print and cut as i already have the cadet but does it lose quality in print against the jv3

Does anyone know any decent suppliers – ive seen the grenadier anything between 16,996 – 19,995

And what about prices for jv3/jv5

Whats the best rip to get pantone colours correct = signlab rip isnt great on cadet – we aslo have roland rip which is much better

Colin

[Simon.Johnson]

A good and very typical question with replies which are good but perhaps ask more questions than they really answer.

As a company, we are involved in this situation nearly everyday, therefore, for my reply I would like to give you (and others here) what I hope may be a clearer way of thinking about the issue of upgrading capital equipment as opposed to a first time investment.

(1) Don’t speak to suppliers about upgrades – with the best will in the world, and even if you have had a good experience in the past, we can only make money selling what we can supply today and this may not be what you need!

(2) Integrated print & cut versus printer and separate cutter. Suppliers can make an equally good case for either system dependent upon which they can supply. Print quality is the same for either system, and the end result can be the same from either system. The differences are that an integrated system takes up less space in your workshop and does not require manual intervention to complete a job therefore offering a potential saving on labour costs. A system based on separate components gives you the option to do two different jobs simultaneously provided you actually have this kind of work load. You will not get a better result from one of the other. Therefore, how much room/work have you got?

(3) Unless you plan to import some unknown system from the Far East, you really can’t buy bad equipment anymore – you can only buy equipment from bad suppliers. If you reflect on all the comments back and forward in this forum, you hardly ever hear anyone complain about their equipment, only the support pre and post sale and whether they have been well advised. Think of the old debate over Eco versus true solvent ink that raged on for ages. How many posts have ever come back actually stating that there has been any problems with one or the other solution which wasn’t down to the post sale support from the supplier or to the wrong advice given for the application in the first instance? Check your supplier as thoroughly as you check the system you intend to buy.

(4) JV3 versus Grenadier. Please consider this first. Both the JV3 and the Grenadier are actually older technology than the Cadet you are planning to upgrade. Both offer a wider print width and higher performance but neither can actually produce anything you cannot already produce (given the size limitations). You need to consider if this is a capital investment looking forward 3 years or a stop gap investment to solve an immediate problem. If the latter is the case, look at the buying a second user or ex-demo system, ideally from the original manufacturer. As the newer systems have come onto the market there are a lot of existing users upgrading meaning there is now a reasonable supply of very well maintained second user systems. If the former is the case please look at the new generation of machines such as the Roland PRO111 series or the JV5 which offer huge increases in performance.

(5) No bu sines should make a capital investment based on cost – it must be based on the revenue which the investment will generate which determines the return on investment based on the final cost. JV3 versus Grenadier in terms of integrated or separate print and cut is as (2) above.

(6) A final point for all players in the Sign Industry. The Sign Trade has for many years been a trade manned predominantly by well intentioned and skilled craftsmen who have been able to make up for a lack of business experience by being their own labour force and working with very low capital investment. Unfortunately or perhaps fortunately, as the Sign Industry matures, the successfully players will be those who can grow through sound business practice not just hard work.

If you want something to consider for the future, we are now a very over capitalised industry ( How much of your equipment is running 8 hours a day 5 days a week?) – in order to flourish, we must now get out and sell our services to make more use of our investment. Should we see "white vans" as a sign of our own failure?