Tiara Opal, whats your opinion?

[Robert Lambie]

I haven’t seen or heard of anyone with the machine mate but will let you know if I do soon.
When you say lamination, do you mean this is a two part print process requiring vinyl lamination to increase the life?
If so…
This is just my opinion mate… I would steer clear of doing v-warps with this sort of vinyl combination.
. (Printed vinyl with lamination) I know trillions of suppliers and maybe some v-wrappers “on the suppliers pay-roll” may say it’s perfectly fine.
I would have to say I disagree…
“I could be 100% wrong” but!
Lets just think about how we apply normal vinyl, with no other job, than to stick were it is put on a flat surface.
1, wash down van
2, clean with mentholated spirits making sure we have no dirt, grime, grease or polish from the vehicle still on it.
3, apply vinyl & in some cases heat to activate the glue in cold weather.

Ok straight forward enough,
Now lets say you print your graphics onto vinyl. This print is not absorbed by the vinyl, so is sitting on top of the vinyl. In my opinion, acting like a sort of polish on a car. Maybe!
Now laminate that with a clear vinyl of equal stretch/life properties. You have an encapsulated print with great life expectancy.
Now apply that vinyl across a van with deep recesses. The bottom layer of vinyl grips the vans pre-clean, degreased surface, as it should. So when it starts to pull back, it’s staying put! As it has something to hold onto.
Now lets think about the clear top lamination vinyl. Same vinyl, same application, but! What is it sticky/adhering too? A skin of ink on the surface of the vinyl below.
What happens when it starts to pull back? All it can grip onto is the print!
I would imagine that unless you apply this type of vinyl to anything other than flat or gentle contours you maybe in for some headaches.

If flat signage is what your tackling constant, then fine. If they say it works then maybe it does.
You mentioned going for the v-wrap market. That’s were my concerns are…

Just my opinion mate 😉

[Rodney Gold]

Vehicle graphics , in fact anything that is going to be abraded , touched , washed , scuffed etc that is digitally printed has to be laminated , no matter what type of printing you use and no matter what outdoor guarantee you get. The graphic wont fade due to UV , it will fade and get degraded via chemicals , pollution, abraision etc.
You cant hot laminate vinyl at all – so you have to use a pressure laminator and have a choice of cold films to use. (Cold films a lot more expensive than hot)
There are solid lamination films that allow conformity as well as “chemical” liquid films like micronex that actually use low heat and pressure to “melt” a conformable 8 /1000’s of an inch solvent resistant film on the graphic (still wont save it against a stiff scrubbing brush)

Most digital print shops will only give an outdoor guarantee if the graphic is laminated unless its billboard or other shorter term untouchable stuff
Any printer mnfgr that tells you lamination isnt needed are being VERY optimisitic or have tested under ideal and perfect conditions that dont exisit in real life. In fact the years of outdoor life havent even been tested in terms of actual time , but mostly under accelerated destructive conditions.

Lamination actually bonds the laminate to the substrate in various ways , and if done properly (and the print is still not wet) will adhere so well that trying to strip it is impossible (Obviously depends on the quality of the laminating film , machinery etc)

To Popcornpro
NO ecosolvent ink can adhere to raw vinyl , only true solvent inks can and despite the “eco friendlyness” of solvents , you have to run the machines in a ventilated space or take whatever risks breathing in those solvents have. solvent inks generally require that you baby the machine a little more , but this is a generalization.
The major problem with solvent and eco solvent is the drying time , almost NO graphics (barring some substrates) are ready to use as they appear , mostly you need 24 hours to cure to handleable. Scratch resisitance is a MAJOR problem on either eco or non eco solvents.
You will have to get a laminator and a decent one can run to $10k or more – however this becomes an income generator in itself as a production type laminator brings its own business.
Always buy a laminator that is a lot bigger than your max width , like if you have a 1370 mm wide printer , buy a 1600mm wide laminator.

Bear in mind the cost of material and inks are not that relevant in how one prices the graphic – coated films are tested and are becoming more ubiquitous – ideally ones machine SHOULD be able to take various inks like UV curable , true solvent , eco solvent etc , but the heads are not built for this , and replacing inks often costs a new set of heads (which can be horrendously expensive) and will void any warrantees.

Get the sellers of whatever machine you choose to dem it AT YOUR PLACE WITH YOUR FILES and APPLICATIONS – do NOT accept excuses if it doesnt do what you want!!!!!!!
Like Digital cameras , no one printer and technology is perfect and does it all
Just one other point , running a large format printer reqiuires a LOT of space , you can’t run it unless you have space for drying , rolling out many meters in front of the machine etc – most cant be run totally unnatended and a laminator will require 2 ppl to run it. you are probably looking at at least 700-1000 sq ft for both , including lay up tables , trimmers etc.
You will also HAVE to network the printer , as the sizes of the data files would make parralel port transfers impossible or an excercise in frustration.
You too will have to buy a decent machine for the RIP , speed of rip depends on the processor – P4 2 gig is sort of a minimum for fast rips (the diff tween a p4 2 gig and a p4 2.8 gig rip can be up to 10x)
As important as the machine is , so is the RIP – thats the engine that drives the printer and if this isnt good , no matter what printer you have , it will never work well.
Get the fastest machine you can afford in terms of print speed – IGNORE the economy print speeds (econmy printing is only useful generally for stuff viewed MANY maters away) , look at 720 x 720 at a minimum or 1440×720
Be aware the “printer resolution ” is a figure that means nothing – The machine may lay down a billion dots , but its how it lays these dots in halftone cells that is relevant , IE the Lines Per Inch of the printer (Which is never given)
CMYK only inksets and non variable droplet technology will limit your colour gamuts and the percieved resolution.
This is NOT press and print type stuff , you have a really steep learning curve , you must be a designer , a puter geek , a top notch printer and know and understand all the buzzwords as well as having many programs to open files you get.
Photoshop is the industry standard , so that is a must , but a lot of ppl use Adobe illustrator , Freehand , Corel etc , so you have to have those too.

[popcornpro]

Thanks, Rob and Rodney…

Rodney, the things you have listed above are the issues I have been examining: you have listed them well!

There is also the start-up costs to consider. Ideally I would like something like an Arizona 180 but my budget won’t stretch to this at present, so I am looking for something to get started on. I am not expecting huge demand in the first six months, so this is why I have spent so long looking for something in the lower price bracket.

To be honest it may get to the point where I have to sub out in the short term until I can guage demand better. Can you think of any machines that would be suitable below £20K?

[Texcat]

There is a post in here somewhere from Racoon digital who is selling an Arizona 180. I think its in your price range as well.

I was interested but got to get the cash toghether first. Do a quick search and you will fing it.

Texcat

[francopas]

hi, just wanted to know if you finally did buy the tiara opal…