The cheek! Competitors using your design

[Paul Goodwin]

Phil unfortunatly it does happen 🙁

in future put on any image you design and give out a copyright notice which may give you some comeback , or as some members do charge them a design fee but knock it of the final bill once you have got the order and completed the job

[PhilB]

Stuff is going to get a copyright notice on in future.

Annoying the tho, the local sign shop who is doing the work has two spelling mistakes on it’s own front window. Yet he has still managed to take work from me.

At least it shows the customer was happy enough with my design, although I never gave him price because it was just roughed out and I wanted his opinion before I did further work.

Phil

[Kevin.Ryan]

hi Phil
for years we sat designing layouts for customers who just took off with the design and went to as many different shops as poss to get the price down.
we did start putting copyright notices in the bottom corner but unless you do copyright the design it means nothing.
we no longer hand over layouts, they are welcome to come to the unit and see the design on screen, or if they want a copy or email we charge design time and knock it off the price of the finished job as was said earlier.
to date we had no complaints, a few ‘ill call back then’ types who obviously weren’t genuine customers anyhow.

it is anoying that you use your design abilities for someone, just for them to go spend money with the next guy who maynot have any skills other than fitting it on.

regards
Kevin

[autosign]

Put a copyright notice on your designs. If they get copied send them a bill.

We just did this with a company who ripped off a load of Smartcar designs we did. The boss of the company phoned up to argue about it. Gave him an earful and then so did my partner when he came in.

The guy from this company spoke to his solicitor and gave us some excuses why he shouldn’t pay.

I doubt we’ll get anything out of it but it was worth it to make him waste a day argueing about it and consulting solicitors etc.

[Neil Davey]

Same happened to me about 18 months ago, designed a logo for a guy starting a tyre company and forgot to put a copyright note at the bottom of the drawing. next thing i knew someone else had lettered his van and supplied a unit sign and banners for him.

Annoying thing is i drive past his place everyday so i can’t even forget about my mistake.

I now always put a copyright notice on drawings.

Does get yur back up tho. 👿

Neil

[Simon Clayton]

Put copyright warnings on your drawings, and explain to the customer about the time involved doing their designs and if they take it elsewhere you will charge them and if they do and don’t pay take legal action, some of these designs could take you days or weeks to do, so why should they be allowed to go elsewhere without paying for your time. I’ve not had this happen (i don’t think) but i would take legal action, through small claims court to get back the design time costs.
Have a look at this link which explains more. http://www.is4profit.com/busadvice/copy … yright.htm

Simon

[Marekdlux]

I could tell you what I would do, but I don’t think that kind of language is acceptable on this site. (chat.) (:) (:) (!)
-Marek

[storeinet]

I’m sure it was carrie that posted a file.

copyright_template.ai

It’s some where on this board but i’ll be buggered if i can find it.

Dan

[PhilB]

I wouldn’t care if I had a load of work lined up but it was only going to be second customer.

Oh well, you live and learn I suppose.

Phil

[Peter Normington]

Sh*t happens but at the same time remenber that if a potential customer turns up with a design from someone else, are you going to turn him/her away? As they say alls fair in love and war, always look after youself first.
Peter

[Phill Fenton]

I really do sympathise Phil – it’s really annoying when this happens. It’s happened to me and most others before. It’s not just your potential customer that has cheated you – but the sign company that carried out the work is just as responsible for agreeing to copy your layout.

By the way you do not need to put a copyright notice on your work – the copyright is automaticaly yours. So in this instance you still hold the copyright and could still claim damages.

I think if I was in your position (and knew who the company was that copied your design) I would write to the sign company that carried out the work and explain that their customer did not hold the copyright for the design that was applied – and could they contact their customer to arrange for it’s immediate removal. 😉

This may put the wind up the Sign company responsible for allowing your design to be copied, and make them think twice about running their business in an unethical way.

In the past I have been asked to quote to reproduce layouts presented to me that have obviously been drawn up speculatively by some other signmaker. In these instances, I have declined to reproduce the design but have offered a price to do a sign of similar complexity. Usually the person leaves never to be seen again (these days I ask for a small deposit to cover my design time) and presumably goes back to the original designer and accepts their price – or finds another unethical company that Is prepared to copy a design without questioning its origin.

[Phill Fenton]

In case any one is wondering, I had not read Peters post before I submitted the above (sorry Peter) It was posted while I was in the process of typing my post – I was not having a dig at Peter in particular – merely expressing my view which is aimed at all signmakers

[Mark Candlin]

This subject must be one of the most popular “gripes” that we talk about on this site.
My aproach is this, and it aint failed me yet.

I dont do artwork at all before Ive had a signature on an agreed price.
Once i get the signature then i start work on designs.
I show customers a folio of work and give them an idea of how much something similar would cost.
ie:simple lines of text with or without logos or perhaps full colour elements as well.

This allows the customer to see that your work looks good and they get a good idea of the costs. THEN you do the artwork only after they sign your estimate. If a customer asks for designs upfront ask for a fee

Any graphic designer wouldnt give artwork away without an agrement so why should you.

[John Harding]

just had a call from a prospective client who I did a design for, he explained that he was using another co instead of myself because they owed him money – so he was going to use them and offset the work they did against the money they owed him.

Fair enough, but then he asked if he could have a hard copy of my design for the other company to use. (hot)

He seemed perplexed when I explained copyright but offered the designs on disk – for a fee :headbang2:

John

[Paul Franklin]

Haven’t experienced this in my time running a sign writing company but when I was in shop fitting many of our designs / floor plans ended up being blatantly used by other companies. Plagiarism, piracy etc is rife in this day and age and unless you are a large company with a lot of clout, and proof, to come down upon the people ripping you off, unfortunately it seems you just have to grin and bare it. The only other option as previously mentioned is to at least try and get an up front payment before you undertake any design work or don’t give anyone a hard copy of what you have been working on.

[Peter Normington]

No apologies necasary phil, just trying to point out and perhaps I didnt express it very well, look after yourself, is always good advise. as for the other bit just saying the same as you, if approached with another signmakers design, we will always tell the client that to reproduce it would cost far more than starting from scratch. it either sends them away or they accept our conditions. We always get a deposit before handing over any designs.
Peter

[John Childs]

Now we’ve got that sorted out and all agree………..

Anybody got a Berlingo outline? 👿

🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

[Paul Franklin]

what format do you want the berlingo outline and where do i send it???

[autosign]

Yep, done a design for a company a few months back which included making up a logo and sourcing a picture good enough to be reproduced 2m x 1m on the side of a van.

The company called recently asking if they could have the artwork to get some banners done by some cheapskate signmaker.

Nope. We’re not giving you the artwork so someone else can benefit from it just beacause he does things cheap. Of course he’s cheap, he didn’t spend 3-4 hours doing any design work.

They then asked for just the font. Tough luck, it wasn’t a font, it was my own handwriting that I scanned!

[John Childs]

baship….

I’m sure you realise that my “request” was a bit tongue in cheek!

https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p … ht&start=0

Sorry, it’s my strange sense of humour.

[Phill Fenton]

In case you haven’t realised – John is being ironic.

(i.e he does not need a Berlingo outline – he has already paid for a disc of outlines – Vehicle outline software is also copyright – so don’t ask for it – and dont give it away)

[Paul Franklin]

John my brain is too addled at this time off night especially on a Friday to know what reality is. Thought I’d stepped back ten years as the other half was watching ‘game on’ and I’m casting an eye on that while doing a few designs. If i click my heels together maybe I’ll be back home with aunty Em. Still, I didn’t get your humour, sorry!

[Paul Franklin]

John just followed your train of thought after reading posts on earlier thread, however if you look far enough you can find almost anything online.

http://www.citroen.nl/CWH/nl-NL/Corpora … swagen.htm

[Andy Gorman]

That’s a very nice drawing. Now scale it up to full size and change it to a red van! 😉

Vehicle outline CDs are worth every penny – for one thing you don’t have to spend hourse searching online for a drawing.

[Paul Franklin]

very true big G.
and I was one of the very first to have the 2005 impact CD.
however there are still many vehicles missing from it.
needed a Citroen C4 recently but unfortunately it wasn’t there.

[Andy Gorman]

I’ve held off buying 2005 version. I would like to see a list of what has been added since last year before I buy. I think they are good value but you don’t get hundreds of new vans every year and 100 squids is 100 squids!

[Paul Franklin]

I hadn’t updated the impact CD for a few years and thought it was about time I did. A job i did on a fleet of new Fiestas paid for it. However, I’ve found that several vehicles now that I would I’ve had to do work on have not been there. I also did a Fiat Scudo recently and noticed that the front view of this had a Citroen logo. Had impact assumed that this had the same front end. Not knocking there drawings though, as I find them indispensable.

[Andy Gorman]

Yeah well, some of them are the same. The scudo is the same as something else, can’t remember what though. Perhaps they should repeat the outlines under both names.

[John Childs]

Scudo / Expert / Dispatch.

Then there’s the Sprinter and VW LT vans as well. As they both have round badges I change them to a smiley face and use the same drawing.

[Brian Hays]

quote baship:

I also did a Fiat Scudo recently and noticed that the front view of this had a Citroen logo.

If you have the 2005 disk the new Fiat Scudo’s no’s 55-57 have a Fiat badge on the front? not sure what you are looking at? 😮

[Andrew Bennett]

Copyright notices.

I take it we are talking about watermarking work here please (?)

[Simon Clayton]

you need a written statement.

Simon

[Peter Normington]

Just a thought, can anybody define who the copyright belongs to?

A large corporate has signs made by several companies, Im sure they own the copyright, and not the original designer, Or the signmaker.

A small sign firm designs a logo, or a van for Joe Bloggs the builder, and fits it to his van. Does Joe Bloggs now own the copyright? I’m not talking about the art work, But if the signmaker owned the copyright, then he could force Joe bBoggs to remove it at any time.

If copyright passes to the customer, then he is under no obligation to go back to the original sign maker, and following on from that, has he a right to demand the art work from the designer?

answers on a postcard……….
Peter

[Robert Lambie]

if you sell/offer someone your design/sign/product/whatever in return for money/services/goods/whatever. the customer owns it. you will always be the originator but thats about it!
the only way around this is to clearly state what it is the purchase covers.
there are many different methods to copyright. 🙄

[Paul Franklin]

quote :

If you have the 2005 disk the new Fiat Scudo’s no’s 55-57 have a Fiat badge on the front? not sure what you are looking at?

Try looking at the from the top / plan view and there are the chevrons.
I’m just being picky I know.

[Dave Bruce]

You see Rob I am not sure you are right there. If you remember one of my earlier posts (last year) I looked into this, and even spoke to the main people (Trade description/Copyright folk). I understand that you (the signmaker)own it automatically when you originated the design, UNLESS THE CUSTOMER STATES that they want all copyright when the job is done. In that case you will be able to charge alot more for the design work, because you are unable to use it again for other jobs.

Me thinks that anyway

Dave

[Deleted User]

Oh good, now i can trip you all up 😀

I had this about 10 years ago when i designed a satellite trailer and it goes like this:

The “Originator” holds ALL copyright unless the customer specifically requests “outright” purchase of the said copyright at which time the copyright changes hands, however, even when the copyright has been sold, the “originator” still holds “intellectual” copyright.

Which basically means that the customer only gets copyright of a design IF they request it AND a separate price is agreed on it. Even when this is the case, the designer still has intellectual copyright to which he/she is at liberty to use the design as long as 1 item is changed.

I wouldn’t have known if it was not for Bradford University Remote Sensing nicking my design and eventually having to pay me for it (and huge court expenses)

Hope it helps

[Brian Hays]

quote baship:

quote :

If you have the 2005 disk the new Fiat Scudo’s no’s 55-57 have a Fiat badge on the front? not sure what you are looking at?

Try looking at the from the top / plan view and there are the chevrons.
I’m just being picky I know.

Well spotted, shall have to change that 😳 The front is ok though.

And as John says the Scudo / Expert / Dispatch are all the same van.