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Stupidly cheap competition
Was asked today to price a relatively straight forward job on the back front and sides of a LWB sprinter . I priced it at what i believed was a competitive £200 all in, as I sort of know the guy and his father. He was shocked as he said another guy in the area who is pretty new has quoted him £90 fitted and all Yes NINETY quid , I told him to go ahead and get it done , id love to see what he gets. What are some of these guys thinking ? and breathe . rant over… (:)
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44 Replies
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Even £200 for a vehicle that size is very cheap mate… but £90 is just stupid!
inferior vinyls that may shrink, fade peel, crack etc, poor application and bad design all come into place here and something you should point out to the customer. there is more to a vehicle graphics than just the price!the good thing is that the £90 cowboy wont be around for long… they never are.
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Rob i know i thought i was being generous only quoting £200 as i knew him . Hopefully hes back to me next time with a horror story lol.
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The trouble with some of the £50 or £90 vans is that the public (if they don’t know what it costs or what a GOOD job is) think you are ripping them off something silly when you say a couple of hundred.
They honestly can’t see the difference.
"Look – it’s the same…it’s got my name and the phone number on it…."
Rob’s right – they are never around for too long, either their suppliers, landlords, inland revenue or ex-customers end up chasing them for unpaid bills, tax or shoddy jobs.
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the best thing to do to combat this is every time you see a really bad job, grab your camera and take a picture. i don’t mean take pics of just poor designs, more so recessed areas pulling back, vinyl curling, shrinking etc etc print them at good quality and make yourself a small wall display showing what can go wrong if your customer doesn’t buy his signage from a reputable source. we all see these types of jobs everyday so the customer will acknowledge what you are saying to be true.
below the pictures have a logo/s of the brands of vinyl you use and stating the life expectancy and the like. you can easily make up a small sample sheet of same for when your out on-site quoting.
show the customer it and explain the pitfalls of investing with the wrong type of sign firm. as a professional sign firm it is up to us to educate the customer because 9/10 are completely ignorant to it all.
at the end of the day they may still go to Joe Cheap, but if it all goes wrong, you can be sure who he will come back to if he wants it redone properly. -
We’ve noticed stiff competition around here.
I had to quote for a ldv luton van at £200 last Monday as somebody else quoted at £200. It was basic text and full colour photo of a cake! But to be fair its going to cost around £50 in materials so I’m not to cheesed off about it. Its it definitely going to get more cut throat as time goes on.
James -
quote David Rogers:The trouble with some of the £50 or £90 vans is that the public (if they don’t know what it costs or what a GOOD job is) think you are ripping them off something silly when you say a couple of hundred.They honestly can’t see the difference.
“Look – it’s the same…it’s got my name and the phone number on it….”
Rob’s right – they are never around for too long, either their suppliers, landlords, inland revenue or ex-customers end up chasing them for unpaid bills, tax or shoddy jobs.
Problem is they give us all a bad name. 👿 before they go broke..
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This is probably an extreme case, but as this year progresses i think a lot of businesses will be cutting their prices (read margins)to the bone to keep their heads above water, not just the cowboys.
We have a situation where our suppliers in general are increasing the cost of materials, and I think we will all be looking to the supplier who keeps the costs down, the same as our customers will be doing.
Pricing in our market is always an issue, and I have no time busy fools.
But,Its a long haul ahead guys, we will all have to cut our cloth economically,
Peter
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Fair comment Peter…. 15% price increase from some suppliers here from today..
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Until you see the vehicle completed you don’t know it’s not a fair price. Might be a bit of text in one panel on each side and then a wee bit of text on the back.
If the job is much more than that then the guy is making no money no matter what material he uses. The main thing is to make sure your quote is looked at on a like for like basis and not just slagging people for being cheaper.
People get slated on here for being cheaper all the time, I think it’s unfair, if they earn enough for what they want then fair enough, good luck I say.
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no disrespect Gavin, but come on mate?
we are talking a LWB Sprinter here… and we just need to look at Neils comment as he has been generous already by offering it at £200, but regardless…Lets say the whole job is one colour…
£30 Bonnet [simple design/graphic]
same on back, so another £30 [even though i very much doubt it as its normally up-sized or more on it]
we now are sitting at £60 which leaves us £30 to charge for both sides of a van the size of a small workshop? 😕 :lol1:
as for work constantly being regarded as too cheap… yes in fairness we should be judging on them on a like for like basis. but lets face it, most posts made by sign makers gobsmacked it what someone else has charged as they simply cant compete. they post up a rough idea of the layout and then yes, we go in and scream cowboys etc etc
I also have to disagree with the comment:
quote :Its a long haul ahead guys, we will all have to cut our cloth economicallyit has already been noted our suppliers are increasing their costs. so we drop our prices???? ok fair enough people are penny pinching but this is one sure way to cripple your business. you will then have the same struggle trying to get your prices back up to where you where once things begin to level out again….
by competing, why not just keep your prices the same whilst all else raise the bar, educate your customer more on the work you are selling over the competition?.
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Rob,
I didnt say you should drop prices,
but if you keep your prices the same when materials are rising,
without doing other things to keep your margins constant, then you are lowering your prices are you not?Peter
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I’ve just mocked up a very bad van layout.
My point is that until you see it you can’t say what’s fair and what’s not. If someone is making a living then who are we to complain?
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The basic rules of supply and demand……..
If there is over capacity in any industry prices will drop……..so if there are not enough people able to produce signage …..prices will rise.
Let others do the stupidly cheap jobs and stick to the profitable ones yourself.
Just my thoughts.
John
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I did a van and a recovery truck for a mate when we first started up.
It was the first ones I had done.
He knew it would take time and might not be 100%, but I done the jobs and they came out a lot better than I thought.I also did him extra vinyls for his garage, and some large print outs of his logo
Charged him £150.00!
His reaction was "You can buy them off ebay for £70… and you took ages to get them done" 🙁
I went to his place a couple of weeks ago and he was telling me about a van he had there.
The owner paid £90 for the vinyls off ebay.
All text was stretched up to fill the panels. and it’s all way over the top and not a good job at all.Some people are just too stupid for words 🙁
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Gavin, do you think Neil would not be able to compete on the quoted £90 price if that layout was close to what he was quoting on? that is my point… nobody is knocking competitive pricing.
anyway, you have 3 sides and i assume you recon £30 for each section is reasonable, fair enough, but when you add the bonnet on which you have missed and Neil has stated is included. your up at £120 so even this "rubbish design" as you have tagged it, using one colour and fitted IS still too expensive! which again is my point…
Undercutting happens all over the place, no denying it. But i simply hate cowboys devaluing our industry for beer money. they go bust a few month later and we are left to pick-up the peaces.
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Ok, point taken. I still would not be surprised if Neil sees the van running about totally different to what he was asked and quoted for.
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Sorry Rob I’m with Gavin and Peter on this, I work from home so my overheads are as modest as they are going to get I can easily be cheaper than sign firms in Cambridge who have premises and loads of staff. I don’t regard myself as a cowboy just because I’m cheaper. I run SL V8 – Corel X4 plus other software all legit and paid for, I have a Graphtec and Summa plotter so my software and hardware is as good as theirs if not better and I know how to use all of it. I have 34 years in the sign business starting from using a brush through to the computer stuff (18 years ago) to now so arguably I will have as much if not more experience as they have probably more.
So I am cheaper because I have lower overheads, does that make me a cowboy? I hope not, am I better placed to survive? I hope so, my motto is ‘if there is competition – then compete’. If they can’t (or wont) it’s their problem not mine.
I’ve done LWB Sprinters for £200.00 and I’ve made money and I’ve no intention of raisiing my prices so someone else can compete more easily.
I don’t argue there are some rubbish jobs done but I’ve seen them from larger firms too, please don’t (I’m not referring to you Rob personally here) label all people who work from home who do stuff at a competitive price as cowboys. Suck it up guys its tough out there – get on with it.
Alan D -
Thats a really good point Alan and I agree with you, Just because you work from home and can do jobs cheaper than the big firms it doesnt mean you are a cowboy. (:)
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Hey guys, I don’t think anyone, like myself, that can do the same job cheaper than a larger company is a cowboy. Thats just business. A bigger business than me can do many jobs at a better rate than me (or us) because of their staff and ability, whereas I need to outsource some work in that instance, forcing me to be dearer.. Does that make me a rip off though? no.
I think a cowboy is the company that tries to make a better margin on a cheap job by using the inappropriate material. Monomeric when you should use a cast for instance.
I’ve been beaten on many jobs that, 4 years later look crap because the sign shop reduced his price based on promotional grade or Real Estate vinyl, when my dearer quote was based on 3M cast material that easily lasts 7 to 8 years.
Based on my price being probably 30% dearer, 8 years later I was actually the better price because it would last twice as long.
In terms of the original price of 200 quid being over twice the price of the winning quote in this thread, no one can tell me that the shop is doing same for same – material, artwork or application, and be able to charge less than half the price of his opposition. Unless you guys over there work on bigger margins than we hope to get here, that is a big reduction in anyones language.
The problem is, so many small shops don’t know their real operating costs. They fly by the seat of their pants thinking they are making good money, when in actual fact, it will take a recessed economy to discover they have little in reserve to get them through the lean times.
I always like the sign "good service, cheap prices, quality materials – pick two". Rings true in so many ways.
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quick reply as i have a meeting in 5 minutes…
Shane has beat me to some points already here… 😀
but can anyone tell me where i have said or even implied homeworkers are cowboys?
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Firstly a couple of points id like to make . Gavin the layout was nothing like your one panel design . He wants it on the complete side not one panel and back doors and bonnet . He used my van as an example and said about the same amount of text etc as i have on mine . Ive worked from home myself for years now and have only just last year built my new workshop so please anyone that works from home dont think im saying homeworkers are cowboys as id include myself in that category. (the home-worker not cowboy that is lol) :lol1:
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Not me Rob and I said comments were not referring to you but home workers who are more competitive than some larger firms do tend to be labeled as Cowboys or similar. My point really is that just because it is cheaper doesn’t automatically mean that 1. it is done by someone less skilled either design or application. 2. Materials are sub standard 3. software or hardware is not ‘as good’
Another point is your client base may also set your ‘charge level’ If you are working for mostly small companies or self employed you will not get the same price as if you are working mainly for designer/blue chip companies. You can quote it but if my experience is anything to go by you won’t get it.
Alan D -
quote Robert Lambie:but can anyone tell me where i have said or even implied homeworkers are cowboys?
Sorry Rob, didn’t mean to steal your thunder mate.
The problem that I see here all the time is that with small businesses these days, it seems that if you want to make a profit, you are deemed to be ripping someone off. Unfortunately small business owners don’t give themselves enough credit for their ability. They undercharge so often because they have this ‘I’m only a small operator so I have to be, or can be cheaper’ mentality. I had the same mentality for years until my clients started telling me I was way too cheap for the quality and service I was offering. I had one client that would tell me to rewrite invoices for a dearer price because he knew I was undervaluing my service. Didn’t make me a cowboy though, just made me stupid in truth.
Now, over time, I’m not the cheapest, nor am I the dearest, but I don’t see why I should apologise to anyone for making a reasonable margin. The fact that I’ve arranged my affairs so that I can reduce my out-goings, doesn’t mean that I have to pass those savings on to the client. Is that dishonest? No. Am I ripping anyone off? No.
My accountant sat me down one day, one on one, as a friend – free of charge – and went through all the costs that I need to account for in running a small business, and make a profit – from what it costs me pr kilometre to run my vehicle right through to my life insurance so my wife and kids would be debt free if I was no longer around. It was the best advice I ever got. The second best advice I ever got was to keep monitoring your outgoings and incomings in the business on a regular basis.
Let me ask you guys and girls this…. How many cost increases have your suppliers passed on, and you have absorbed them? I’m guessing a fair few. That relates to less margin in its simplest terms. Too many increases without passing them on to the consumer, and you may well be losing more than you think.
Just my 2c’s. No offense meant in any way.
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We’ve had this in the past where you quote a price and see the van two weeks later done by someone else and its obviously been done cheaper because its nowhere near the same layout that you quoted for. If you quoted for what he’s now got then your price may have been the same. The customers don’t understand the differences if he says he wants his name on the van and you price for what you would normally consider a signwritten van and he goes somewhere else and gets the job done as the illustration shown, just the back panels then he thinks your a rip off merchant, but if you explain that if its the whole van then it will be £200 or if he wants a cheap job then it could be as cheap a £90 for the back panels only.
They really need to be shown it in black and white. -
Martin in agree what your saying if id been at the computer id have quickly drawn it up for him. He pointed at my van and said roughly like that so if i see it with only back panels or something i will tell him accordingly what I could have done it for as I know him well enough to do so . Time will tell. Maybe i’ll get a shock. (:)
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Cattle Rustlers……..
I think everyone is making valid points.
Pricing has to be competitive, but many who think you just buy a cutter forget the associated equipment and depreciation / replacement costs of a cutter etc.
We have all met those that moan about a quote along with those that expect prices to be higher than quoted as they valued what they wanted done at a higher cost.
In respect of Robs reply I think he has never been against Home based outfits, his only intention to promote good practice and workmanship through the boards.
just my 2p’s worth ………..must go and feed the horse…..:lol1:
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No offense taken my end Shane and also to quote for like for like is very important for obvious reasons. I have put my prices up over time both to cover costs (which I am well aware of) and my labour but another thing has become apparent is that technology and trade services have made jobs previously not practical to the small signmaker now very practical and profitable, in the case of digital print without the costs of equipment purchase and maintenance. A small signmaker working from home or not is now capable of supplying digital print, routed stuff, litho, vinyl and everything in between. Obviously larger firms are better equipped for larger jobs but for the smaller ones the gap in closing.
Alan D -
I have nothing against home based Signmakers and to be honest if my house was big enough then i’d do it, why not save on the huge overheads of running a premises if its not necassary?
The main issue I have is when the "companies" who are pricing these ridiculously low jobs blatantly use copied software. They occasionally pop up on here saying how they can only afford a Chinese Plotter, however they regularly have the latest FlexiSign, Signlab or Corel installed and come here asking advice.
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I’m not sure that size has anything to do with it. No ribald comments please. 😛
I’ve built my business up and have premises, staff and overheads. But that was my choice, and my way of doing things is no better or worse than another person who has decided that they preferred to work from a garden shed. Because of that there is no way that I can complete with the garden shed man on price but, by the same token, he cannot handle the volume to serve my customers.
My opinion is that, whatever we are as individuals, times are going to be a lot more difficult and, if we want to survive, then we must cut our costs and overheads, and, speak it quietly, maybe even our profit margins, if we hope to be here in a year’s time.
Obviously I’d prefer to keep my margins, but if accepting lower rewards for a year or two means that I will still be here in 2011, and be in a position to take advantage of the next upturn, then that’s what I have to do.
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John, once more the voice of reason, I agree with you completely.
Apart from having some work I reckon the key things this year are going to be costs and cashflow, gets these right and the rest will follow.
Alan D -
The thing is many enquiries are just plain stupid..
I have just come off the phone from someone wanting a quote to signwrite some vans the same as an existing van. When I asked to see the existing van I was told it was out on a job and anyway it was impractical for them to send the van around all the sign shops in the area to compare prices.
But if you really want to compare prices you need to ensure everyone is quoting like for like I explained.
Ah well – if you don’t want to give us a price we’ll just go with someone else that has given us a quote he says!!
I give up???!! 🙄
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You really do take these things to heart, don’t you Phill? You know better than anyone that the world is full of idiots, so just forget it and move on. 😀
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in Cornwall, we have many pretenders.
Only really us and our main competitors have it in them to be a bit classier than the rest. We price competitive, but never stupid.
We take jobs off them, and id be gutted to think if they werent trying to take jobs off me!!
The cheap and nasty sign boys dont even compare, so they can keep pretending.
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Sometimes I have to step back and ask myself – are we our own worst enemies?
This and other sign forums offer up free advice and guidance to anyone who signs up and asks a question. In many cases these are from enthusiastic amateurs keen to learn about the business. But often also from individuals who are outwith the business looking for information on how to run a cutter and produce their own signs as (often in their words) "they have been quoted silly prices by a signmaker".
Yet many of us continue to offer free help and advice to anyone who happens to ask a sign related question.
Perhaps we should be more discerning who we offer answers to? My own thoughts are that only fully paid up members should receive guidance and support. This way we continue to help out only those that are serious about the business and not those that are simply "dabbling" in signmaking.
Having said that there are many regulars here that are not fully paid up members yet are still clearly fully committed and professional signmakers
Just my thoughts – or am I being unfair by suggesting that the free exchange of information be limited ?
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I know im cutting my nose of a bit here.
But i have to agree with phill. Maybe not go to the extreme of stopping free membership, but limit freebie accounts to only certain questions. Because to be honest, we have all learned a skillful trade and it has taken me 8 years to learn how to work in the sign making industry and to see some new comers have questions answered, within minute’s which i had to learn over years seems to take the skill out of the trade.
Sign forums are not free technical helplines.
James
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I can see where your coming from Phill but membership to UKSG status isnt expensive enough to scare off "Cowboys" and there are an abundance of other forums out there who can offer good advice (not as good admittedly).
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Phil I’m behind you 100%
But how do you vet new users and how would they know the true value of the site without first having a look?
I try to evaluate new members on how they approach obtaining advice and the sort of questions they ask.A first post:-
"Hi, just bought a 200quid chinese plotter, it was all I could afford, but Im having problems getting cs4 and signlab 8 to run it, can someone call round and set it up for me?"
doesn’t usually solicit a constructive reply from me, but I have seen others reply freely.Maybe a new user should first answer a questionaire, prior to getting any serious advice, , and at the very least post an introduction containing the answers?
We have covered all this on various threads before, but always worth a recap, maybe better to start a new thread and invite a debate from both established and new members?
Peter
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quote Peter Normington:“Hi, just bought a 200quid chinese plotter, it was all I could afford, but Im having problems getting cs4 and signlab 8 to run it, can someone call round and set it up for me?”
Peter, that sentence hits the nail on the head with what I was saying about dubious versions of design software.
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OK – here’s an example (lifted from another sign forum)
"it started out as a job as our boss was quoted really silly prices to do all the signage for the fire trucks and it worked out cheaper for it to be done in house. so i was picked on to try my hand at it."The poster had shown pictures of her first attempt at producing signs. This was met with encouragement and applause from forum members but I have to ask myself "why?"
This individual was taking the bread and butter out of their mouths yet was being applauded for her efforts.
The same sort of thing has happened on this forum too – so I am not trying to rubbish another forum – merely point out that in our industry we positively encourage others and at the same time (as this thread is a prime example of) complain about the "so called" cowboys" in this industry.
I don’t pretend to know the solution – I am merely pointing out what I see as a conflict of interests. Support forums like these and encourage others – then see your business threatened due to increasing competition and the ease of entry into this type of business
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I think that digital print could be the saviour as a lot of people want and expect it now but the hobbyists can’t really do it cheaply. For a good few years anyway.
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quote Jon Marshall:I think that digital print could be the saviour as a lot of people want and expect it now but the hobbyists can’t really do it cheaply. For a good few years anyway.
I wouldnt agree. We dont do digital print simply because at the moment we cant afford the outlay to buy the machine or the work to justify having one.
We do however have premises, a 120 wide Graphtec and a full subli setup amongst other things and we only use good materials which I think still allows us to compete with 75% of signmakers up here. We also have a good contact list of subcontracters who can supply us with full colour if needed.
Its only a matter of time before you can get a cheap Chinese wide format solvent printer, I dont see digital as being the answer at all.
Truth is that there is no answer, customers just need to learn from bad experiences.
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I know what post your referring to as when i read that a while back, i thought why all the praise over a simple application.
I cant see why we should give help to people who are asking (exactly like this person above did.) for help after they said we were to expensive, but can you give me some help on applying some vinyls.
Personally I dont understand it.
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quote Jon Marshall:I think that digital print could be the saviour as a lot of people want and expect it now but the hobbyists can’t really do it cheaply. For a good few years anyway.not true, you can get trade printing done for really low prices which means for a lot of people can compete easier as they don’t have to layout the finances to buy the machine like larger companies do. I know there is many negatives to buying in your print but it is available and therefor they can compete quiet easily.
just like I have to as I can’t afford a printer yet and I compete against all the main sign companies and believe I charge and produce good quality signs.
I want a printer ASAP and only because of minimum order restrictions and turn around times, but if the work is there and you have the time (and make sure you don’t mess up any prints while applying 😉 ) you can compete just as easily as anybody else.
In an ideal world there should not be sharing of information on forum but become an apprentice, not be allowed to buy in trade prints etc and should work for somebody first then maybe be a fitter and then when have grown enough to open your own business and buy a cutter and printer then you can do so.
🙄 man….. now my coffee’s cold 🙄
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quote Jon Marshall:I think that digital print could be the saviour as a lot of people want and expect it now but the hobbyists can’t really do it cheaply. For a good few years anyway.quote :Its only a matter of time before you can get a cheap Chinese wide format solvent printer, I dont see digital as being the answer at all.
They will still be thousands rather than £300!
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