Struggling with my quotes. help!!!

[Raman Singh]

Hi David,
We use to be in the same boat before but then we implemented time based artwork charges + Extra’s + Brief form (managing customers expectations from start)

1)We made our set packages for most of the the product groups
Example:
Business cards/appointment cards etc: Basic package 1hrs design time £30.00
Leaflets/flyers/invites: Promotion package 1.5hrs £50.00
Stationery package …

2) Extras will be images to be purchased from Istockphoto, scanning, artwork on DVD, logo improvements etc

3) Design Brief (MOST IMP): To get above mentioned right and to be spot on with your design, you need to be able to take a good brief like content/colours/fonts/ likes/ dislikes from client.

At this stage we make it clear to clients that to AVOID any further charges please make sure that they provide all the details right and if they change information/mind afterwards, it will incur extra charges.

Since we have done this, we have saved alot of money/time wastage.

[Robert Lambie]

Have a mountain of work behind the scenes just now mate, but will try add to this over time as its something allot of folk do not take into consideration.

example…
Folk see a banner online for lets say £30 for an 8×4. personally, i wouldn’t look at quoting for it. but this is typically what we are all up against daily!!
not only is the banner ridiculously cheap on its own. "what about the designing time?" as you have said… in fact, does the sign maker account for his eyelets, hemming, hemming tape and labour?

fact is, they use trade printers prices as a guide.
this is wrong for many reasons… but lets look at what you have said, "design time".
trade printers will not offer the sign maker a design service, they expect the ready made artwork, scaled and in the correct file format before they will lift a finger.
You and i, should do the same!

It is all very well working out a standard price for a sign, banner, vehicle wrap. "as a starting point"… but there is no way you can offer a banner for £50 and then sit for hours on the artwork. the customer MUST pay for this!
it must be added on at an hourly rate…

do not get me wrong, we will do banners with very little artwork needing done and wave the design charge. this normally is bog standard text and clipart type stuff, but again, the banner has to be worth giving that free artwork away for in the first instance…. where you toe the line is really down to you….

[Martin Pearson]

You shouldn’t really be guessing how long the artwork will take David, if you have taken the time to get a proper brief from the customer then you should have a pretty good idea how long it is going to take you to design.
From there you can quote you customer a price, what to do if it takes longer is really down to you. I find it sort of averages it’s self out, some take a bit longer some a bit less so if a design takes longer I won’t add anything extra to artwork charges unless the extra time is down to the customer changing his mind or wanting additional work.

Quite often it is down to me not working as quickly as I should be and I’m not going to start charging the customers for my poor performance.

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

Someone in the trade gave me a great piece of advice a few months ago, I showed him my business and told him I can’t keep up with the orders but I’m running myself ragged for peanuts…

His answer: Double your prices. You will half your work load and make the same money. I did exactly that! Guess what? I halved my workload and still turned over the same… Now I have been in the fortunate position to take on my first member of staff and I can spend pretty much all day quoting, designing, sending samples, printing and cutting the jobs while my workshop manager (makes him feel good) does all the tape, grunt and fit.

Sales are starting to go through the roof and at the right prices too. Because I’m not scrambling for every penny I can get, I can quote "proper" prices and not worry if I don’t get the job (I generally do because my forte is sales).

Sometimes I give higher quotes because it’s a small job and I don’t really want the work. For example, someone wanted 1000 stickers the other day, I normally do one meter (if artwork is good and supplied ready, if not I quote and say in the quote if I need to change the artwork it will cost more) for £35ish (700×1000) it was a 3 meter job and I quoted £150, they also wanted it quite quickly. I got it…. blimey they sent the file, I loaded the media, popped the file in my rip, on the bench, weed cut post job done all in under an hour…! And it’s stuff like that that pays my staff wages for the week, a couple of those and Iv’e covered it. Now, had I been working on my own I probably would have either missed that job or been doing it for next to nothing because I needed the work.

I have to thank my mate Ian for his advice because he really put me on the map and made a big difference… sad to say, I was a busy fool! 😳

When you first do it, it’s a bit scary but when it starts to work…… you will be smiling all over your face. What you have to be disciplined enough to do is to go to work on your business when your not producing, ie: get selling. If I even get a whiff that I’m not doing anything I start looking for sales. I would rather spend 3 hours looking for one £500 sale than 1 hour looking for 5 £50 sales.

I don’t have a fantastic set up either, I have a couple of printers, nothing great, a ropey old Chinese import laminator and benches that I made myself. No board cutter, or any other fancy gadgets, I do everything by hand. I don’t even have an indoor area for fitting vehicles, I rent that ad-hoc. Everything I make at the moment goes back in to marketing. I print my own leaflets and marketing materials (I send stickers rather than business cards). But my customers keep coming back and they bring new people with them. You can buy all the best and latest equipment on the planet, but it won’t make you any more money. I’d rather have a few grand in the bank than tied up in the latest rack, or tape dispenser. I know I could take a few days out to work on getting more work in. I’d only buy stuff like that at the end of the financial year if I was showing too much profit!

Keep going Dave, and don’t be afraid to ask for more money. Work out what you think it’s worth then ad 25% at least. You can come down but you can’t go up (well you can actually but that’s another sales story for another day). Another great piece of advice someone gave me (and for this I am eternally grateful) however long you think something will take, you will ALWAYS underestimate. Even if you THINK you have OVER estimated you will STILL UNDERESTIMATE.

This never fails to amaze me, however long I think a job will take I’m always short of the mark. Not just work but car journeys, walks even shopping… its hilarious.

You’ll make it Dave, I have seen some of the posts you make on here and the advice you ask for, your never afraid to ask for help. That’s an excellent quality mate… Now go get em tiger, and charge them twice as much for the privilege, oh and don’t worry about the cheapskates and cowboys. Let them work an 80 hour week for peanuts, they will take all the crap customers you don’t want, so in a way be glad they are there, I know I am!

[David Hammond]

Thanks for the advice guys.

About 2-3 months ago I actually took the advice of the people on the site and put together a price list to help me quote.

I have in my trusty folder along with some photo’s and prices of previous jobs a list of common media and materials. It tells me how much they are in m2 of ft2, so can quickly calculate material costs. Price it right guide gives me a good indication of what to charge for letters of set heights.

I am extremely interested in the design brief forms, as we get loads of people coming in for business cards, leaflets, etc and it’s basic information they don’t know… like how many? How quick? Is the artwork done?

I have only last week put together price lists for my canvas prints, t-shirts (another bit of advice from these boards seen a £200 investment in some heat transfer and some shirts, there’s already interest) I will be doing a price list for my banners as I will be increasing the prices on those (another tip from these boards). Also now charge a minimum order of £20.00, just to cover the time doing it. (photocopying excluded) I’ve had discussions about charging to open customers memory sticks and scanning files (had about 6 people in 2 days wanting files scanning then saving to their memory sticks).

Since I put the prices up… and it was up, and upset a lot of customers who dealt with the previous owner (my cousin). I had one of his biggest customers at a stalemate after refusing to press print until he paid an overdue invoice! :lol1:

I am going through a quite spell this month with only smaller jobs, but many of them. And taking this time to really look at the business. Whilst I am impressed with how things are going… I know it can and should do better!

I just struggle with quoting for design time, and many of the public who come in don’t realise how much signage costs. They expect a facia board for about £100 designed and fitted!

I explain and show them all the materials, and explain the cost differences but advantages of the more expensive material. I just find sometimes doing a design for a customer, they like it, then when you tell them how much it will cost to produce bugger off.

I just struggle with quoting in general because, I need to quote for the design of the sign, then quote for production of the sign, which you don’t entirely know until you’ve sorted the design, then installation.

There must be a simpler way to do things? I’m getting there but still feel there’s many more steps I need to take.

Just thrown together an initial idea for a design brief… I’d be surprised if my customers can be bothered filling that in. I am open to criticism, to improve it.

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[John Harding]

An interesting thread as its one I have suffered from and still do to a point and for that reason im moving to clarity to iron out some of the vagaries of my current quoting approach.

Mo – I love the sentiment of your post although your friend cant claim that one about doubling prices for himself its an old adage however the principal is reasonable.

quote :

someone wanted 1000 stickers the other day, I normally do one meter (if artwork is good and supplied ready, if not I quote and say in the quote if I need to change the artwork it will cost more) for £35ish (700×1000) it was a 3 meter job and I quoted £150,

Mo I think your still too cheap £35 is a trade/mates rate price you should be nearer £55 p/lm IMHO more if laminated so 3m as a print run should be more like £165 but for a rush job I’d want £200 plus the vodka and tonic

David –

quote :

I just struggle with quoting for design time, and many of the public who come in don’t realise how much signage costs. They expect a facia board for about £100 designed and fitted!

Tip Laugh at them (in a nice way) no one likes to think they’ve been foolish then explain why, time taken to prepare a job quality of materials guarantee service you offer etc if they don’t get the value of your product let them go.

Best Wishes all 😀 😀

John

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

quote David Hammond:

Since I put the prices up… and it was up, and upset a lot of customers who dealt with the previous owner (my cousin). I had one of his biggest customers at a stalemate after refusing to press print until he paid an overdue invoice!

There’s a lesson Dave, sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards.. "UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT" signs should say…. "Sorry Customers,you are no longer able to take the piss out of us!"

Thanks John, that wasn’t laminated, just a straight print and only 700mm wide. The material is less than £5 a meter printed (loads of white too) so I think £35 a meter is fair, £50 a meter is just criminal lol. even at £35 a meter for an hours work (mostly sitting waiting for the printer to finish, when I indulge myself in other things such as posting in the forum) I think £90 gross profit is ok…?

[Gavin MacMillan]

Undervaluing the work is criminal

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

quote Gavin MacMillan:

Undervaluing the work is criminal

Good point… but undervaluing is relative

[John Harding]

Mo

I did assume that was unlaminated and you said 700 wide so thats why I suggested the price as lm (linear meter not square meter) the price is a fair retail one I know peole charging more, I think you (and I have and do) make the mistake of comparing the sale price against the material price, what about the cost of the printer and money toward a new one and also your general business overheads – the true profit is I guess nowhere near what you might think.

John 😀

[David Hammond]

Must admit I fell for that the other day. Some posters a custom size. I worked out the meterage, checked the rip’s ink usage estimate and gave a price….. Only when I was cutting them out I realised my mistake!

I have worked out my hourly rate, so now just need to start noticing how long I spend infront of the computer doing things.

Got an enquiry today for some window vinyl. Price it right says 2.60 per letter. 47 letters. I haven’t account for design time as its text only.

They would also like a quote for a full colour foam board sign 5×2. Price it right suggests 90quid, plus design. That sounds expensive to me. Profucing the board I worked out about 40 quid, then design time, to make it upto 90.

I am a bit stumped. I want to be charging the right price, and not selling short and letting people get stuff for free!

[David Hammond]

I am still struggling with this.

I’ve had few enquiries for signs, and all people ask is how much for a shop sign.

I am pretty sure I am loosing business because I don’t commit myself with out first knowing what’s involved.

I need to know sizes, style of sign, illuminated, cut vinyl, digital. Raised lettering.

The kind of clients I’ve had recently want cheap- and want a price there and then.

They cannot be arsed filling in design briefs, can’t wait for me to measure up, and most aren’t interested in what material. They just want a price.

Price it right guide is great if I know some more info.

But how to give a reasonably accurate quote, including design time- I am working with complete idiots!

[Martin Pearson]

Easy for me to say in my position David but these are the sort of people you don’t want anyway. As for losing business you are only going to lose their business if you are the cheapest quote they get on the cheapest materials you can find.
All you can really do is TRY and educate them on what is required to give a proper price.

You could when you have time just knock up a couple of pictures with a plain board & single colour text that you could give them a quick price from, no real design time involved if basic text in vinyl.

[David Hammond]

I might be passing judgement on them – but it’s the impression I get.

I think the main issue is that they come to me and I ask questions and need to measure up before I give a price.

Whilst my competition probably give a price there and then, so the client doesn’t need to mess around.

I have some pictures in my folder of work I have done with what I expect to get paid for such a job. I give dimensions, a price + vat & fitting.

I might do as you said and draw some simple samples with a guide price.

[Martin Pearson]

David, I would do exactly the same as you do, how can you give the customer a price if you don’t know what they want or what sort of size it is going to be. Plus you have no idea what the installation is going to be like until you have had a site visit. Don’t really see it as messing the customer around but more making sure they get what they want at a fair price.

Maybe your competition don’t give a price on the spot but give the customer some sort of idea by saying a simple one colour sign at whatever size would cost x amount manufactured and installed. You could go on to say that the price would be subject to a site survey.

I don’t actually like doing that myself to be honest because I believe that when you give the customer a price then that should be what they pay and although it might be a little cheaper it would never be more expensive than the price I gave them.

[David Hammond]

Its not just me then!

I have got some photos of signs I’ve done a simple description, sizes, and my price. I might have them easier to hand.

I’ve got my prices sorted for materials, and just estimate the time required, f
or installations (1/2 or full day) and the time to design and make the sign at my hourly rate.