Stick with Versacamm or switch to Cadet?

[Chris Wool]

i have to say WHY bother
unless you have a problem

chris

[Rodney Gold]

I would look at all the pros and cons first before making such a move.
What I would STRONGLY suggest is print a high definition file on both machines , especially something with “difficult” colours (like orange) and see whether the full solvent machine gives you as good a continuous tone and the colour gamut is right.
Print a full ink coverage decal with some bleed and cut on the printed section and see if you have worse edge curl problems with either inkset.
Changing inksets throws every profile out the door and makes life difficult when matching exisiting work or repeats.
In terms of a more agressive solvent (both inks ARE solvent based) the upsides are better abraision durability , better adherence to “difficult” substrates and if you can use aftermarket 3rd party inks , slightly cheaper print costs and far better resistance to solvents.
The downsides must be considered too. Agressive solvents do not allow the same definition and resolution of milder inks and often have a reduced gamut, they tend to attack the substrates more in terms of thining them or promoting puckering when a heavy colour is printed. They are much harder on machinery and need special pumps , tubing , wipers etc etc and if spilt on the machine can cause serious damage (like a leaky head) , heads tend to dry out (albeit the capping station on the roland ameliorates this).
I’m of the opinion that toxic fumes are a bit of a overblown issue (I think the move to eco friendly inks was more about legislation than concern for the user), a decent extractor fan and a good supply of fresh air will help – HOWEVER here’s the rub , air flowing over a digital print is somewhat of a no-no – airborne dust particles will cause all sorts of problems so you need to filter the air too. Apart from which , most of these machines work best in a constant temp/humididty scenario and thus airconditioning might be the answer if you run full solvents.
(maybe one of those cooker extractor hoods above the machine is an answer??)
In terms of reducing material costs , printing on cheaper media and saving pennies there is somewhat of a false saving , the glues and the media generally are poor and often one cant get a decent print on the real cheap stuff whatever you do.
I dont think there is a saving on inks at the present moment , I think the Cadets cart price is much of a muchness with the rolands one.
Im pretty much amazed at this durability issue – at the end of it all , any print from any machine needs to be laminated under harsh conditions , if you are thinking of doing naked vehicle graphics with a full solvent cadet , then modify you guarantee on them – mine is as far as I can see the vehicle after it leaves my premises if not laminated.
Both the Versacam and the Cadet are new new machines , in terms of getting unbiased or time tested proof of the advantages and issues of either , they have not been out there that long and undoubtedly some stuff will still surface.
Finger rub tests etc are meaningless , some folk say the ecosolvent inks rub off in seconds and some destroy the vinyl before the ink comes off. Obviously media and profiles are playing a part here – the same can happen with any print technology including full solvent or thermal. If the settings arent right , the print wont be and no print technology can cover this up.
I can’t tell you about leaving the solvent machine standing , but can tell you my soljet was left for 3 weeks over our shutdown and was printing straight after it fired up (went thru its usual startup clean cycle)
Find out about the maintenance required on this upgrade in terms of flushing etc.
The biggest problem is that in this industry all the mnfgrs basically gloss over realities and dazzle you with “best case” figures. Like print speeds , yes the machines can spit out a zillion meters an second but the print isnt saleable , yes , the ink costs are 2 pence per square kilometer (1% coverage , worst resolution etc etc) and yes , durability is 3 years (indoors , with the wind behind , going downhill and no uv , no polutants and not touching and the gods must be smiling)
I . like the other poster , am of the opinion that if it isnt broken , don’t fix it , apart from which I think solving one set of issues will introduce others.

[Pryam Carter]

Cheers Rodney, as usual you are a mass of knowledge and your time to post has been very much appreciated with this one.

[Robert Lambie]

hi billy.. now that you have used the versacamm how do you honestly feel about the unlinated durability for signage and the like?

just asking & i maybe wrong mate as you seem to have some experience in print failure in some form or another? 🙄

[James kelly]

I’m over the moon with my Versacamm prints. Prints on Metamark Digital vinyl pass Robert’s finger tests with ease! I use the Roland profiles with Colorip and the Cadlink profiles with SignLab 7.

As Rodney recommends, I laminate prints for harsh environments, as I would for any printer… cheaper to laminate that re-print.

[Bill Dewison]

quote JSK:

Prints on Metamark Digital vinyl pass Robert’s finger tests with ease!

What, you mean you can whizz a drill bit through it and the prints still look good? 😉 😆 😆 😆 😆

Cheers, Dewi

[Pryam Carter]

I’m going to have to get some Metamark Digital Vinyl in then because l honestly think the print durability is poor. 😕
I did a couple of signs for a guy who was collecting on Tuesday, he didn’t show up until Thursday. By then both signs had scratches on them, don’t ask me how because l’m always very careful with the printed stuff, had to knock a tad off the price which is nnnnnooooooo good for me. 🙁
The thing that gets me though with this subject matter, the samples that roland sent out to me that had been printed by the Versacamm were very durable, l rubbed until my fingers bled and only then did we see a difference. (?)
This is why l raise the question with the Cadet, do or don’t l?

[John Singh]

Thanks Rodney for all your time 😀

It always makes for interesting reading

John 😀

[Robert Lambie]

I was sent some samples very recently.. and some a while ago.
Both set of samples were eco solvent and also solvent.
as always I do some of the versacamm tests. now the thing is.. i know most of the prints were NOT solvent prints! while one or two were..
You only need to wipe them with meths to see what is and isn’t solvent..
(and i do know meths is not a day to day chemical but a good way to see if you have genuine samples)
anyway.. my point is.. Roland or whoever that sends out samples can easily get them mixed up and send you solvent prints.. or in my case sent my eco prints.
e.g. Billy, “MAY” have been sent solvent prints. so tests proved good…
how would he know otherwise? he then buys the machine and now isnt convinced about durability. its possible 🙄
the ones i was sent wasnt for these sorta tests. was for vibrant colour comparisons.. very different indeed. one versa prints or the like and the other solvent.. out of curiosity i wiped with meths.. both went white!
sooo.. was i sent real proofs? or are they set-up to look that way? I know none were solvent as they wiped away to white in one swipe..?
whos kidding who.. or is it a mix-up? 😕

[Rodney Gold]

Some vinyls do not hold the inks well , solvent (even the guys pushing out big volumes on full solvent roll to roll printers use specific materials) or no solvent
Some really well known makes of tried and trusted cutting vinyls cant be printed at ALL.
Most vinyl makers make a range of vinyls that match their “normal” offerings but are optimised (and actually sometimes CHEAPER) than the normal sign making vinyl (like the Grafityp s22p which equals their 181 but is optimised for digital printing and is polymeric) Avery , Mactac , Grafityp, Orocal etc ALL have digital specific ranges and these are further split into ranges optimised for full solvents, mild low volatile solvents , dye and pigment inksets.

Prints done on the s22p or Starrex (x-film) 5-7 yr polymeric vinyl are nearly indestructible , that same print on grafityp “promo” (a 1 year vinyl) are dreadful , if you do get a print , it has NO abraison reisitance at all. Worse than that is the fact that often the vinyl guys change stuff in production , so one month you get stunning prints on 181 clear and the next batch of rolls is dreadful??
I have also found (unsurprisingly) that reduced inklaydown does NOT produce as durable an image (there is far less ink on the vinyl- duh;)
At the end of it all , its pretty silly to try print on vinyl that is not meant for digital printing , there are TONS of specific vinyls available from a zillion mnfgrs and these are way better than the sign stuff for a few reasons. .
1) the liner is specially treated so it does not cockle , ruck or “warp” with or without heat , the liners are treated for water absorption and they are usually “lay flat” liners (the print does not take a set or curl according to its roll direction)
2) Rolls are continuous , wound with constant tension and are dust free with protector plates so the edges of the rolls dont get graunched
3) Vinyls are not overcoated with anything that can affect printing and the plasticiers are not a barrier to ink penetration
4) Profiles are available for specific machines for that vinyl , developed by the vinyl guys , which work a lot better than some of the profiles supplied by the machine mnfgrs.

As I say , many of these are cheaper than standard vinyls cos they are produced in one colour in large quantities.

Billy , the local guys here use spray and cook or Mr Min (Pledge?) on thier graphics for scratch resistance if they print on less than ideal media and it works like a BOMB – especially the spray and cook.

[Pryam Carter]

Rodney………….Pledge as in furniture polish? 😕

I’ve tried different vinyls, APA, hexis poly and cast, Grafityp S22P, now on with another which name escapes me at the mo. 😳
Love the colours and tones from the versacamm, they are truly fantastic. But they do need laminating.

[Chris Wool]

billy
i am using metamark md5 on my soljet ex durability is just above satisfactory unlaminated on my car door for 3 months now i have not had a warranty job yet after 5 months of using it but as far as the customers are conserened if i think its going to be rubed in use its laminated
the real problem i have with md5 is its so thin compared that i have a lot of trouble fitting it dry laminated no problem so selling a 2 ft sq sticker unlaminated to a customer to fitt is doggey.
much to my amazment image perfect 5700 prints very well and durable enough and easyier to handel – black print on to there coloured vinyls excelent.

chris

[Chris Wool]

oh yes and pledge does work but dont get it on to the substrate before fitting so the cloths that are used are kept out of the way of normal work
chris

[Bill Dewison]

Will the ‘pledge’ trick work on PC60 prints as well Chris? And how do you go about laminating prints, clear vinyl overlayed or??

Cheers, Dewi

[Chris Wool]

dewi yes it does & mrsheen gives them a higher quality feel as well.
clear vinyl works well but real laminate is slightly better.
its usualy thinner and clearer glue
if you want to put them back in to the machine to cut shapes then a different story i never got on with the book meathod so devised my own if you want to ring me i will explane.

chris

[Bill Dewison]

Nice one 😀 Thanks for that Chris! I’m off a wandering today, lovely weather but I’ve got to work 🙁 Bet its nice down your way as well.

Cheers, Dewi