Start Up

[Rodney Gold]

Part time anything is part time – either committ yourself or dont dip your toes into the water – Professional folk and bigger customers (thats’ where the money is) dont like dealing with “hobbyists” – Yes you might get a few piddly jobs but its not going to make you any serious money.
At the end of it all , fiull time signguys don’t like the type of thing you are doing and you will find a hostile environment out there if you dabble in a market and especially if you get your prices wrong. 👿 admin edit
Merely vinyl cutting graphics is “old” tech -you gonna find yourself competing in the digital print market with guys that can offer SERIOUS graphics near to your prices or even bleow them.
Im not being pessemistic here – just realistic.

[Martin C]

I have to disagree with you Rodney! 😕

I started Part-Time and am now full time. Yes, I’ve a way to go to before I make what some would call ‘serious’ money but I’m living and working …..and happy 😀

As for a hostile environment and messing it up pricewise for other sign companies?????????? Business is business isn’t it, should Forbie, or I really give a damn if we’re happy with the profit we make?

As an example a recent job I quoted for was pitched in at £3k by a ‘serious money’ sign group. I went in at £1500 and made a profit of £950 for 2 days work! Did I lose £1500, did I mess it up for the other sign guys?

As for old tech and new tech, it’s been said on here more than once that so many people are now digitally printing for the sake of it that keeping it simple but effective will always have it’s place. And if you want to sell digital print, farm it out, that’s what a lot of people do anyway.

I would say though Forbie, that the difference I noticed from working part time and thinking I could juggle my other commitments around full time work with the aid of a mobile, an answerphone and e-mail didn’t plan out. Until I became available to take calls personally the part time business was going nowhere!

[Rodney Gold]

I think my prior post came off as rather too abrupt and re-reading it , somewhat rude. I was dashing off some points and I apolgise for that.
I rather think that today opportunities as a start up vinyl cutter are rather limited especially as technology moves forward and you are one of many competing agianst seasoned veterans .
The problem is more whether you can actually get enough work as a part timer to branch off by yourself these days – make a living for your family and put a bit bye.
Very difficult to do if you dabble , often you find the time you spend might not be worth the effort – what financial freedom you hope to achieve for your family – you work too hard at 2 jobs to enjoy , if indeed you actually make any money out of it.
A decent sign shop – even at home cant run to less than 5-8k? Thats a sizeable chunk to invest in stuff that will be idle most of the day and , even longer considering the poster said he would be away a lot (thats also not that great for business) I dont think it will be all successful for him on that basis?

I really feel that the finest incentive is neccesity – commit yourself and you are driven to succeed. If you don’t well youv’e given it your best shot.

[Phill Fenton]

I also believe that part time isn’t the answer. If your not convinced enough to do it full time then you should probably be thinking about doing something else. Either that or just do it as a hobby – but don’t expect it to grow beyond that. You have to work at it full time to make it grow enough for it to become a reasonable way to make a living. This is true for most types of businesses. I believe the reason many businesses fail (not just sign businesses) is because the owners aren’t committed enough in the first place

I had other commitments when I left my job seven years ago (a wife and two kids to support) and the requirement to make a living is a great incentive to find work and make it all happen.

Good luck 😀

[Nicola McIntosh]

spot on phil! imagine if you added up all the extra hours everyone does, to the commitment and love of there job!! priceless!!!!!!!!!!

Nicola

[Martin C]

On reflection my start up came about by chance and developed into a psychological cushion, (i’d been made redundant twice before and was unhappy in the jobs I’d had since).

But the learning curve, which I’m still on, was less harsh and from day one I knew I could get by without having to sell my soul 👿

I get the impression that Forbie may be better suited to easing into the business rather than the grab the bull by the horns approach which can put pressure on to make things succeed and doesn’t work for everyone.

[storeinet]

It is possible to start on a part time basis but, and it’s a big but, it’s not just you who’s going to need commitment, your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend needs commitment too.

They will need to back you all the way and that includes helping weeding and doing the books.

I gave up my job, moved 250 miles in the opposite direction, started a job with a bank, but started cutting graphics, but I was lucky due to the low wages I was earning at the bank, I was soon earning the same cutting. But I also have the experience of my business partner (20 years) to back me up. But I did give the job at the bank up after 3 months, and am now doing this full time. Hated working at the bank  now I’m paying them.

I started small time don’t get me wrong, I didn’t even try to compete with local sign writers. I’ve not done a van yet, or a shop.

Now that’s not because I don’t want to, it’s because I’m waiting on the skills of my business partner to move into the area.

Once that’s in place then all hell is going to let loose. But what I’ve done is concentrate on a niche market. One it’s building us a reputation in that area, and brining in repeat business, but it’s hard going at this point in time, because it’s generally small work./items.

So if you’re looking at this as a part time venture then you have to do all the jobs that other sign writers don’t want to do, and customers won’t pay the minimum order value that most have in place, we sure will be going down this route of imposing a min value shortly.

One thing that I think is important is look at the other companies in the area, see what services they offer i.e. colour printing, routing etc. get friendly with them, you may or will need their service’s at some point, so you can outsource to them, and you don’t want to tread on these boys toes, at the end of the day they hold the trump card, when you need them. They may even send you the work they don’t want to do.

But as has been said before, full time is really the only way in the end, running two jobs will kill you, creating graphics for others and getting feedback from your customers is rewarding in it’s self, but at the end of the day it’s all down to a pound note as they say.

At the moment your earning money with your job, and that’s all you will ever be doing. Going full time in this game your be making the money how much you make is going to be down to your input and commitment.

Dan

[Kevin.Beck]

I started part time, bought 2nd hand tee shirt printing equipment, put it in my garage and 2 sheds(thats right mike,2 sheds)

Slowly building up the business. Then taking the plunge to go full time 4 years later.

In my case, I wouldn`t have lasted long, by jumping in full time straight away. I just didn`t have the customer base. or indeed the experience in business.

I do feel its down to the budget available aswell. Lets face it 5K can soon get swallowed up, in equipment/software/rent. Theres so many things that you will need.

One things for sure. its better than working for someone else……
I should have do it 15 years ago 😀 😀 😀

[Martin C]

I dream of having two sheds! 😀

[John & Dawn Roddick]

I personally think its down to individual circumstances and choice. We started up in May of last year and are steadily building a good customer base. I work full time for the Fire Brigade and John is a lorry driver, doing about 60 hours a week so the business involves many late nights for us but it is the way in which we are most comfortable working. I do the computer side of things and John doeds all the fitting. Long term, we would like for at least one of us to concentrate on the business full time and that goal gives us enough of an incentive to push ourselves.

As for expensive equipment such as digital printers, we only have to look at Mike to see that the only real limitation in the business is your imagination and not your equipment.

[Phill Fenton]

Can I first of all say that I would like to wish anyone the best of luck in running their own sign business – be it full time or part time. 😀

However:-

quote Forbie:

Do you peps honestly think that it is possible to start up kind of part time doing mostly vinyl stuff and kind of wait and see how it goes.

To reiterate my original answer – I have to say I think the answer is no. If you really are serious you need to be in it full time before you will ever get anywhere. Don’t waste your time doing it part time unless you are content for it to be a hobby

That’s my honest opinion.

As for digital printing – I’m convinced that this is a must in the future for any serious signmaker. I believe if you fail to recognise this fact you will find your business becomes highly limited in much the same way as a traditional signwriters business has now become highly limited

These are only my opinions – but that’s what the original post asked for 😀

[Martin C]

quote :

As for digital printing – I’m convinced that this is a must in the future for any serious signmaker

Are you saying you think it is imperative that Signmakers themselves invest in the equipment to do this Phil? It’s one thing recognising that that’s the way the market is going and another trying to keep up (financially) with technological developments.

When I started selling signs, Banners actually, some 10 years ago I hadn’t a clue about the technology involved with screenprinting but picked up several orders for 200 pieces. What I mean is it doesn’t really matter if you have a 610 plotter, some screenprinting equipment or the latest Mimaki Digital printer you will always have to turn to someone else for framing, engraving, neon, cut letters, etc., BUT you must be able to sell a service.

[Rodney Gold]

Firstly , we are all in this business for the money – regardless of how we creative we are , it’s the money that ultimately counts (and of course enjoying the job)

Outsourcing is fine – providing you have a good supplier and you are as au fait with their products and services as they are. You obviously face the dilemma that your customer can also “outsource” and get the job a lot cheaper.
However business is changing , gone are the days when a customer orders 5000 decals for 6 months stock – with changing technology customers want stuff on demand , they want more sophisticated stuff too and shorter runs.

We do a huge amount of work for the signage trade , I see signmakers right from the hand to mouth guys (one of my customers actually HAND CUTS vinyl) who only have enough cash to buy the next 2 meters , right thru to the really big guys who use our speciality services.

Its tough out there and the smaller guys are falling by the wayside – they are scrabbling over a shrinking market share.
As customers see the advantages of digital printing , that market is growing hugely and not only in the signage sector and the “humdrum” cut vinyl letter sector is being overlooked cos It’s not much more more expensive to print and cut than just to cut – and in certain cases is a LOT cheaper
Yes – you can do layered vinyls to get the same effects as a digital print – but at a much higher cost and with a huge amount more effort as well as facing problems like delamination and so forth.

5 years ago , there really wasnt much of an option barring vinyl cutting , digital printing was just not acceptable and screenprinting was too expensive or long winded for small runs.
It was the same when the first CnC engravers came out – unless one is doing speciality hand engraving , any engraving shop with a manual machines is doomed to muddle along – the quality , precision , turnaoround , repeatability and ability of a CnC machine cannot be beat.

The profitability of a digital printer is VERY high , we print to the trade at round gbp 2.50 per sq ft and can print round 60 sq ft an hour (the machine can print faster – but there is cuttting , media changing , profiling etc involved) and one can print round 500 sq ft a day at a profit of about gbp 1.80 per sq ft – It gets a LOT better if you print for the customers where prints can sell up to gbp 5-7 per sq ft and small decals can go to gbp10+ per sq ft (Ie a 2″ x 1″ decal would sell at about 15 pence)

If you finance a gbp 30k machine , I dont think that you will be paying more than GBP 800 a month , if that , thats only gbp40 per day (20 days per month) and all you have to print is about 25 sq ft to break even.
What would one pay a basic worker a month ? I would imagine GBP 800 wouldnt get you much ? Often looking at it that way puts things into perspective.

Thing is , with your own machine you have control , and in digital printing proofs go back and forward from you to the customer , coulors need matching etc and there is a lot of interaction with the customer – outsourcing becomes a problem in that case as the time you spend on this mounts if you can’t do it yourself.
If you go for a smaller machine – like a Versacam – it looks even better – albeit that machine cant print the volumes , however I dont think it would cost more than gbp15 per day to finance – ciggie and beer money!!!

At some stage – especially if an area of your business gets big or you see an opportunity – you have to take the plunge and buy your own – you can get from A-B in a taxi or a bus – but your own car is a lot better.
Waiting for the next best thing to come out is waiting forever – there will always be something better around the corner – however if you dont invest – others get the market share and when you do come in , you face established markets which are very difficult to penetrate.

Just one thing about a digital printer – these are NOT just replacements for Vinyl cutters , they do a WHOLE lot more and will empower you to offer a ton more services and build your business.

[Gordon Forbes]

Well thanks for your replies all taken on board.

I feel that I agree with Rodney on some points (even though going by his first post that he had been smackin his head against the wall toooo much)
No offence taken at that post though to be perfectly honest you sounded as though you had gone to bed and got up the next morning knowing it all and thats where I find myself in a bit of a dilemma. My knowledge is limited I have learned a lot from these boards.

I feel that digital is the way forward as you can offer a much wider service and am very glad at mike’s recent post about the new versacamm as I was seriously considering buying one of these machines with and am waiting to see what the results of this post are . It can’t be right that it performs like this something must be wrong somewhere like a dead short between the salesman and the computer.

By what I am also able to discern that the PC600 bands a lot and is comparately expensive to run and is by some reports on the way out.

But the thing that really has got to me in the last year shall we say (not related to here I might add.) is that at work I took a step “forward” and went up the promotion ladder to the next oportunity that was open to me promation if you like the man in charge of a small work team resposible for aquiring data and providing services in my work environment to customers ie running jobs offshore for the customers.

Well since I have done that the company has offered voluntary redundancy to people but because of my position I don’t get offered it. If I apply it won’t be accepted If I was in my last position I could have walked away with approx 20K sick or what.

I am still determined that I want to do this in my area as I see not a lot of digital is being done but that then might be the customer a lot might not want digital prints on their livery.

Anyway for now its save save save need some mortgage money put away and a versacamm to save up for. Luckily I’m in a position to do that at the moment.

There are a few niche things I have been looking at and I can stockpile for them.

[Phill Fenton]

One of the advantages of the new versacamm (if it turns out to be all that it is claimed to be) is that you can offer a multicoloured layout featuring outlines, drop shadows, colour gradients and halos, for a similar price to a conventional vinyl operator offering a simple two or three colour layout. The print and cut method means that the application time will be much shorter for a complex design. This will allow you to produce superior designs that set you apart from the competition that is still offering conventional vinyl layouts for a similar price.

If I was new to the business – this is the route would be taking 😉 However there is a very steep learning curve before you will become profficient at it if it is something you haven’t done before.

And of course there are all the other opportunites that exist using digital print.

[Will]

A word about outsourcing or farming as we call it-I think it only really works if you (the outsourcer) have a fairly well-rounded knowledge of the processes involved otherwise you tend to end up with egg on your face frequently. what i mean is say for eg. someone phones you asking for a quick quote, you think it looks straightforward enough & quote on the job, also saying yep itll be ready in 4 days – then your printer/cutter looks at it & says, Well you will need to print that colour as a third colour it wont work as a tone of the other + you cant print that image in reverse on white self cling & expect it to stick-must be done on clear with an extra screen for a full white overpass, oh & you havent got a hope for 4 days time” this sort of scenario happens in my place all the time because print farmers just dont know how what they are quoting on will be produced so do yer homework! Also dont lie to people that you yourself are doing the work-most people dont mind if your outsouyrcing, just as long as the job will get done & is no longer in their in tray is many peoples main concern. We had a customer once who landed a big job with an american firm who needed fleet graphics, T-shirts, stickers you name it- produced for their UK office. She had said she did all the work herself & ran several factories. The MD came to britain one time & phoned her saying he would love to meet her & visit one of her factories! now get this-she came to me & explained her predicament and then asked if she could bring him to MY place and tell him it was hers and that I was one of her employees!! My reply was suitably succinct! best of luck mate It can work but it is no get rich quick scheme, Will Phantom screen

[Dazzel]

PC600 bands a lot and is comparately expensive to run and is by some reports on the way out.

friend went to Roland today for a demo. He was told that the above is being deleted !!

[Robert Lambie]

quote :

friend went to Roland today for a demo. He was told that the above is being deleted

why is the pc600 being deleted.. to make way for the versacamm?
or due to running costs?

[Dazzel]

Robert, only brief info gained, but it seems that Both are motivations. The demo rep was real down on the cost of thermal print.

May find out more, will post if i do

Paul

[Robert Lambie]

cheers mate…
how does the price of running the thermal number plate printer compare to that of printing with a pc600 or edge?

[Dazzel]

Talking about 0.20p for a full block A4 size. I hope to get more details soon.

[Robert Lambie]

so am i right saying 20p for the numbers etc on a plate. 40p total?

i have a good friend that has recently bought one of these.. hes fully registered and has been doing plates for years now.. hes looking into the colour setup for same thing.. inkjet version ive told him to be very wary of uv stability.. 20p is cheap considering what they charge..

[Phill Fenton]

I’m not at all suprised that Roland are planning to drop the colorcam now that the versacam has been released. Who on earth will now buy a colorcamm when there are machines available that cost little more to buy yet are a fraction of the price to run.

What I really can’t understand though is why the colorcamm is so expensive to run. This is purely a political decision to keep the price of consumables high so that inkjet machines can be sold instead. There really is no reason at all why the running costs of thermal machines like the colorcamm couldn’t be lowered.

Come on you aftermarket ribbon producers, lower the costs of ribbons now before these perfectly capable machines become obsolete 😉

[Dazzel]

Robert i think for a “plate” it would be cheaper. The price was est. 0.20p for an A4 total coverage at 0.20p.

[Dazzel]

ps. This machine is not good enough to produce plates anyway. As plates are white/yellow the inks do not cover yellow properly. Need a white behind the blue to stop it going green and this is not possible. Great for white one’s no good for yellow.