Should we charge for proofs!

[David Rowland]

yep… indeed… tho proof should have a copyright message on it to warn off the customer a little.

Also sending artwork as PDF is practically giving away the artwork and hi-res JPEG also.

[Pat Byrne]

This has probably been covered before, but is there any wording re: copyright etc. that can be attached to proofs
Thanks
Pat

[Martin Forsyth]

I watermark ‘ designed by …… Ltd’ in any artwork – just in case.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I never give out proofs without a deposit.
Tell them it is deductible from their order if need be.
I don’t care how desperate I am for work,
I am NOT giving my time and talent away.
Yup…I’ve been burnt too.
A watermark is a great idea.
Even a subliminal "You are a w@nker" somewhere in the design that you can point out to them later on the work that they got someone else to do.
But I still won’t give proofs away anymore.
If they are serious, they will give a deposit.
love….Jill

[Les Woods]

quote Dave Rowland:

Also sending artwork as PDF is practically giving away the artwork and hi-res JPEG also.

Did you know you can assign a password in Adobe Acrobat which prevents the recipient from printing or editing the artwork?

They can still pinch the idea but so long as you have your copyright symbol & company name on it it’ll give you a stronger case if you take it to small claims court as you’ll be able to prove they had to go to some extreme lengths to recreate it which therefore is proof that they’ve deliberately & blatently broken your copyright.

The thing is not to get caught out in the first place though – not easy when you want the work…

[David Rowland]

yep.. indeed.. shame Corel doesn’t add passwords on Publish to PDF.. well i dont think it does. The acrboat password thing has improved over the years and can restrict the use of a PDF

[Nick Minall]

X3 will add a password Dave.

Nick

[David Rowland]

ace 😛

[John Childs]

Should we charge for proofs? Of course we should.

So naturally we often don’t. 🙁

If I am failry confident of getting the job, and I am lucky with my customer base in this respect, I dont bother. However, some unknown who walks in off the street will be made to pay.

[Paul Hughes]

totally agree with Jill, spot on.

it does not matter how desperate you are for work, doing a proof for nothing is working for nothing if you don’t get the job and that does not help you if you need the work/money.
a better plan is build up a good portfolio of your work, use that as a selling tool to convince the client that you are the man for the job, then when he pays a deposit then do him the proof never before.

see how many architects you can find who will design you a house for free 😮

don’t let them steal your time and talent (!) (!) (!)

Paul

[Checkers]

Your portfolio is a tool that should be used to sell the client on your design talents. So, as Jill mentioned, if the client is serious about an order, he shouldn’t hesitate when you ask for a design fee. If the client balks, you don’t need him or his headaches.
And for the record, just about any PDF document can be easily hacked with or without a password. So, if you’re going to send a pdf proof, do like like I do, send it as a screen reolution JPG.

Checkers
a.k.a. Brian Born
Harrisburg, PA USA

[David Rogers]

I hate to say it, but if you are gonna get screwed over – screen resolution, watermarking or pdfs will do nothing to prevent it. After all, it’s NOT the vector artwork they are stealing, it’s the concept as it’ll need to be re-originated anyway.

Let them see it on screen – they can have a hard copy when cash changes hands. Only my loyal customers get vehicle proofs to take away -but most of the time when a customer leaves the unit after being shown it on-screen I know I’ve got the sale 99% confirmed, only the scammers get uptight and all "I’ll get XYZ to do my transit for £60".

Dave

[Graeme Speirs]

i sat in on the Corel X3 workshop at sign uk, there is def a password sysytem for proofs, just not sure how to access it just now, sorry!

[autosign]

If the design you did was fairly unique (i.e. not just a standard layout anyone could do in 5 minutes) , then send the customer an invoice for the job. You designed it, you automatically have the copy right.

[Les Woods]

quote David Rogers:

I hate to say it, but if you are gonna get screwed over – screen resolution, watermarking or pdfs will do nothing to prevent it. After all, it’s NOT the vector artwork they are stealing, it’s the concept as it’ll need to be re-originated anyway.

The main point is to make every effort to stop it being easily reproduced – if they have it redrawn but it looks very similar then they’ve still breached your copyright. Its your intellectual property they’ve stolen.

So send them an invoice.

If they don’t pay, you take them to Small Claims Court (you’ll need all your evidence, printed proofs, emails etc), it only costs around £30 and you get your costs back too.

So, what’s worse than complaining about the theft of your copyright? Not fighting for it.

[Alan Drury]

X3 definitely can password pdf it is under ‘publish to pdf’ – settings – security. for those with other programmes Acrobat obviosly does it but Jaws pdf creator is also worth a look, fully featured and a fraction of the cost.
Alan

[Stephen Morriss]

I use jaws pdf and you can password protect the pdf, I don’t bother though as it’s easy to bypass one way or another.
If your customers going to steal the idea there’s not much you can do about it other than taking them to court.

Also there’s the times you take their idea & put it to paper with a few of your own added touches, how much of that is their copyright and how much is yours?

Steve

[Les Woods]

There’s inspiration & there’s blatent theft.

Seeing a red car and using that colour in a logo – does that mean you’ve infringed Ford’s copyright? Nope, that’s inspiration.

Asking Ford to develop a specialist colour and then walking away with the formula without paying for it – now that’s theft!

[Peter Normington]

At the end of the day, if you leave your car unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, and it gets nicked, its your own fault. Its no different with artwork. its up to the individual to protect his/her own property.

Peter

[David Rowland]

this is why we take two approaches to customers now… some folk just want there white van done, some want a customer image…

the ones that want the image are charged for the design, then its used on there bits and bobs.

[Jon Fields]

Hi all again..intertested in all your comments.. i was fairly certain it was comming our way..so i was prepared to pdf at the customer requested..I worked quite closly with the cust on this with some amendments etc..
My tact will change from now on…
price the job..if accepted in writing then pdf..otherwise ill charge for design time and as Jill suggests take off final payment…Im still gutted but can’t do anything about it now..

Cheers

Jon

[David-Foster-]

quote Jon Fields:

Im still gutted but can’t do anything about it now..

I am sure you can think of something (:) Send the heavies round. A baseball bat down the side of his van. 😀

Sorry only joking, I know revenge and vandalism shouldn’t be encouraged. 👿

[Phill Fenton]

The only consolation Jon is you have the moral high ground. Unfortunately there are rats like this going about who think they are being clever -however, If they use too many people like this eventually they will run out of suppliers.

Shame also on the signmaker who re-created your designs!!

[MartinDenton]

We two types of customers, account and non account, accounts are based on multiple business and trusted.

Non – account pay a 50% deposit , before we do anything, if they dont want to pay that then they seriously dont want a sign, process is to provide approx price for the job based on discussion, subject to final proof, get deposit, create proofs until signed off, then make. Anything else is crazy.

i got my first two big jobs by a customer coming to us and showing us there proofs and telling me they didn’t like them, i asked what they didn’t like about, made the changes there and then and go the job, the issue wasn’t even price, it was that the sign company sen the proof in the post, made it easy as shelling peas, but they will never be able to do that to us, cos we dont give them the chance.

it is in all our interests to follow the same process otherwise we undermine each others market

[Phill Fenton]

I’m Puzzled Martin 😕

You say the issue wasn’t price – that being the case why did the customer come to you saying he wasn’t happy with the proofs he had been given – surely he should have gone back to the original sign company asking for revisions? That fact he "hawked" the proofs around to other companies suggests to me that price was in fact an issue.

If it’s in all our interests to follow the same principles you have adopted how does that not undermine each others markets. That fact that you took someone else’s work and revised it slightly to get the job is is fact undermining your competitor so what are you on about 🙄

[Lynn Normington]

Thank goodness we don’t all work like you do Martin.

Lynn

[David Rogers]

OK, maybe it wasn’t me, but say it was another board member that produced & sent that copyrighted material.
Fine, 🙄 create something that loosely resembles a piece of artwork you’re handed because it’s actually as near as damn it to what the client wants as they didn’t want to deal with the other company for whatever reason – but why be proud to say that the other signmaker was stupid for sending their client some artwork that you could use.

quote :

made it easy as shelling peas, but they will never be able to do that to us, cos we dont give them the chance.

I’m sure you appreciate signmakers like to have a good reputation, both with other local sign companies & also the public. Don’t get known as the guy who undercuts quotes or tweaks other peoples designs.

Dave

[MartinDenton]

Maybe my initial mail was a bit flippant,

I didnt ‘merely tweak’ the design, I sat with the customer and asked what it was they didnt like about their current design, spent time with them finding out what they really wanted and gave it to them. As it happened the design itself ended up quite different from their original proof from the other company and included digital graphics at a time when they werent particularly common.

Price definitely wasnt an issue, I certainly wouldnt underprice a job. The point I was trying to make was that if the company concerned (which incidentally was a major multimillion pound sign company) had taken the time with the customer, sold the customer on their being the right sign company to work with and via a deposit had created a situation where they had to deal with them rather than go elsewhere then the customer wouldnt have gone elsewhere. That would have given them the opportunity to get it right.

To simply put a proof in the post without dialogue and an opportunity to get feedback is crazy and is simply handing your business to somebody else on a plate. We invite them in by appointment and our designer goes though the proof(s) with them

Our repeat business level is circa 80 – 85% so we cant be too bad.

As to why they didnt go back to the other sign company, maybe the customer wasnt happy that the other sign company hadnt spent the time with them, to find out what they really wanted?

Quick Question Lynn; As you would work like that; what would you have done in that situation?