should sign makers have a formal certificate?

[Andy Gorman]

No….and yes.

I think some certification might be appropriate before letting someone fix a potentially dangerous item onto the front of a building. A certificate isn’t really necessary in order to put some writing on a van though. Passing a training course doesn’t necessarily guarantee competence, nor does having a certificate. Ask any Guild of Master Craftsmen member ! 😉

[Paul.Hill]

😕 I’ve no certificate but done it for twenty years as they say you learn from experience. Was the British sign assoc. not trying to enforce some kind of fixing certificate to ensure the safe erection of signs but that was a couple of years ago.

[Chris Stansfield]

i think it sounds like a good idea like andy said, certainly for any type of construction or erection work.

and were can i buy one of these certificates, 😉

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Paul Hill:

😕 I’ve no certificate but done it for twenty years

still doesnt make you the best signmaker (not meaning you) paul 😀 …but i know someone who has been doing it longer than that and he is still not very good…he just does not have an eye for it, he still churns out which i think is terrible work 😕 so i think a certificate would be a waste of time 😉

nik

[Roy Roffey]

I’m up for that idea,

i personally have a BTEC Diploma in Sign work, Creative Lettering and Graphic Design so to my customers that is there proof I’m qualified in my field where as any one with a few grand, no knowledge and the gift of the gab can start a sign firm and as said fix a potential dangerous sign

( theres plenty of them in my area !!!! – i should know )

Lets face it you wouldn`t use a plumber or sparky if they wasn’t qualified

[Peter Normington]

`Qualified dosnt always mean a bit of paper. Experience and experience is what counts. I know lots of graduates with paper qualifications, dosnt mean the have any common sense or can do any job though
Peter

[Peter Normington]

sorry got to add this’
sign maker?
sign fitter
sign writer?
sign manufacturer?
sign artist?
which one would need a cert?
peter

[southernandy]

I would say sign maker should cover all the aspects Peter mentions. To be as good as you can be you need to know as much as possible about how to design, manufacture and install.

No one limits themselves to just designing or making or fitting.

It’s a pointless argument as the established, more competant firms will be branded as anti competitive whilst the newbies will hate having to spend money getting properly qualified before starting out.

Personally I think things as they stand are a mixed blessing- no regulation means people piling in and doing daft things with prices but opens up opportunities for the established people to go round fixing some of the rubbish being turned out and up the quality level and get the customers who will pay for the best.

One thing is for sure the genie is out of the bottle and there is no real way of getting any rules in place to ensure that people starting out are not going to be a danger to themselves or anyone else.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Chris, just say you’re an erection specialist.
Love….Jill

[Vince Francis]

I think anyone can make a sign, and make a good job. I think where there needs more regulating, is Sign Installing. After all, they can still be very dangerous.

[Hugh Potter]

but where will it stop, next thing we’ll have artists claiming that they should have a certificate to work ! looking at some of the tat in the so called art museums makes me sick at what these people earn and call art. but, everyone has their own idea as to what art is,

i agree that mabe some kind of basic course for fixing facias and poles etc safely might be handy, but you couldn’t feasably set a signmakers certificate as each maker has different idea’s regards design etc, if everyone conrofrmed to a set way of making signs, it’d be a pretty uninteresting business to be in !

at the very most, you could only expect a short course in competence, not design or pricing methods, as eveyone is different ! as i’ve said before, it matters not whether you’ve done it for 50 years or 10 days, your work wil speak for itself and if you dont care for your standard of work, you’ll not be n the biz for long.

imho !

edit, what he said above !!!

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Jill Marie Welsh:

Chris, just say you’re an erection specialist.
Love….Jill

only you… could have spotted that one jill 😉

nik

[Simon Clayton]

quote :

No one limits themselves to just designing or making or fitting.

I know a sign company that only did sales, they subbed everything out, and had an annual turn over of £2m. plus

I sub out 95% of all my sign installations, firstly i don’t have time to do it, secondly, it normally works out cheaper than me doing it, and lastly they have all the equipment and experience.

I would say that was also a problem with sign makers and their pricing today, most don’t charge for fitting signs, or design them, (yet designers are earn hundreds just doing designs)…

And no type of qualification will show who is good or bad, its down to their portfolio

Simon

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Simon C:

And no type of qualification will show who is good or bad, its down to their portfolio

i totally agree simon….just wished i remembered to put that in my post 😉

nik

[Simon Clayton]

😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀

[Steve Maple]

http://www.pasma.co.uk/

[John Singh]

I remember watching a programme which demonstrated that anybody and almost anybody could easily apply for and receive certificates showing they were ‘master craftsmen’ ‘registered builders’ and all the rest

and just to prove the point they got a youngster from primary school to apply, filling in their forms and lo and behold he got his certificate!!
Apparently he was now a qualified certified tradesman

Some of us have a portfolio of work we have done to show the customer our capabilities and design qualities

[southernandy]

And some of us are members of the BSGA

[hullitec]

As mentioned earlier, the BSGA have been putting an official installation qualification in place which has been available for quite a while now.
You could get this via training from private companies up until April this year, since then fitters will now only achieve the CSCS card by doing the installation unit on the BSGA NVQ. (Young or old)
The smaller premises having signs fitted may not be as stringent on you having the CSCS card to carry out installations but the large retail parks etc are now following the new rules in place and safety officers do carry out checks on occasion.
Here is some info relating to the above mentioned.

As many of you will be aware, sign installers within the industry could obtain the CSCS sign installation card, by the industry accreditation route, until 15th April this year. Since then the requirements of the Construction Industry Training Board, who approve the issue of the CSCS card, have changed and all sign installers who now wish to obtain a copy of the CSCS card must achieve unit certification for the S/NVQ Sign Installation unit (either illuminated or non-illuminated).

More info can be obtained from the BSGA but members are probably already aware i would imagine.

Hope this helps a little

Mike

[hullitec]

Dont know who this guy is though in the picture???
No pic on for us yet!!

[Hugh Potter]

so Hullitec, are you saying that if i want the cis, or cics card as it now is, i have to do an nvq to get it ?

i was about to look into the cis card as i will from time to time be working on sites,

funny thing is, i worked on sites from factories, office blocks and shops, clambering over builders etc, i’ve never onc been asked to show a cis card, i’ve done anything from installing equipment (electical / plumbing involved) to fitting machine ventilation systems up to 15m in the roof of the factory, never once have i been asked for a card.

far more beneficial than any specific course, would be a mental aptitude and common sense test.

i know Dr’s and lawyers who wouldnt pass the second test ! common sense it really all you need, if you’re not sure, you ask, or over engineer to be safe !

so, cics card…… what is required of me to obtain one ? surely a labourer on a building site doesnt have to do an nvq in mixing cement !!

[David-Foster-]

quote Vince Francis:

I think anyone can make a sign, and make a good job.

First part yes, anyone with a bit of paper and a marker pen, but GOOD?

😮 I must get my camera out and show you good. I think we should start a rogues gallery for all the poorly designed signs we see around.

(:)

[Martin Pearson]

I can’t see why some people are so against a qualification, OK so it might not make everyone a good signmaker but a qualification would go someway towards teaching people about different substrates, methods of installation, manufacturing techniques and design layout.
Everyone moans about the people that think they can just go out and buy a cheap plotter and hey presto instant signmaker, the people who are spoiling the industry with bad designs and cheap pricing. If these people had to go to college before they could start I bet a lot of them would think twice about doing it.
I agree with Simon that a portfollio is the best indication of how good a signmaker is and I am guilty of not keeping mine up to date.
Hugh you are right common sence goes a long way and that is true of almost everything not just signmaking and it sounds like you have a background in engineering which is extremly useful when it comes to installations but what of the people who don’t have the common sence that you have, some of the questions asked on these boards about installing signs have been quite frightening.
As for the CSCS card, don’t know how easy it will be to obtain now but prior to April you could vouch for yourself so obtaining one was easy and you needed no skill or experience to get one, just the money they were asking.

[southernandy]

The purpose of the CS card is to show the site management that you have some idea of what the hell you are doing. Construction firms and the HSE are Red hot on all this. Major construction firms just don’t want joe schmo the sign wallah wandering around their sites causing safety problems for themselves and all other trades on site.

Last site I worked on we had to supply risk assesments, method statements full PPE, public liability coverage of over £20 million and still we all had to do a whole mornings worth of inductions. The site we worked on had buried cables and pipes everywhere and we had to pour 12 concrete bases with over 3 tonnes of muck in each one to support the steel framed sign we had to errect- all this in spagetti junction of water pipes, gas mains and pant wettingly high voltage cables.

Just cause you wandered around a site doing this and that before does not mean you will get away with it now- no CS card, no ppe, no valid insurance and the foreman will tell you get off the site pronto. Even if you are just whacking stuff on existing hoardings you need to report in and shown your tickets- if you don’t the site agent will go nuts.

This safety stuff is just good working practice- whatever we do in the public arena full ppe is worn- hi vis bibs and jackets so the public can easily identify the contractor in case of problems, barriers and road signs are always put out and where possible the council is informed in advance. We even put the nipper on blind and disabled watch to guide these folks round our scaffy towers and tressels. If I’m fitting anything that poses any sort of danger to anyone I make super sure that it’s safety, safety, safety all the way- if something I put up fell down and hurt someone I’d be mortified so I make sure it won’t happen- period.

If you use any sort of access gear it’s got to be the right standard- the DIY step ladder you bought from B&Q is not the right standard- if you fall off domestic access equipment professional insurance is null and void. Look at the hoo har with the window cleaning game- no ladders, work from ground level etc. It’s only a matter of time before the inspectors at the HSE turn their attention to this trade and kick it right up the jacksey.

If you want to get up to speed I would suggest a one day risk assesment course from the St Johns Ambulance organisation- everyone here goes on an annual course and for the money you can’t go wrong.

Also, for things like lightboxes and stuff that could be dangerous I would recommend you go fitting with someone who knows what they are doing before you even contemplate doing one on your own.

[Dave Harrison]

quote :

Also, for things like lightboxes and stuff that could be dangerous I would recommend you go fitting with someone who knows what they are doing before you even contemplate doing one on your own.

How does the law stand on the fitting of lightboxes and illuminated signage ?

I would have thought that due to the recent changes in the Law all electrical fitting and installation must be carried out by a certified electrician and signed off to say its safe ?

Not having done this sort of work, I would assume most sign companies have an electrician on their books / payroll ?

[Simon Clayton]

quote southernandy:

The purpose of the CS card is to show the site management that you have some idea of what the hell you are doing. Construction firms and the HSE are Red hot on all this. Major construction firms just don’t want joe schmo the sign wallah wandering around their sites causing safety problems for themselves and all other trades on site.

Last site I worked on we had to supply risk assesments, method statements full PPE, public liability coverage of over £20 million and still we all had to do a whole mornings worth of inductions. The site we worked on had buried cables and pipes everywhere and we had to pour 12 concrete bases with over 3 tonnes of muck in each one to support the steel framed sign we had to errect- all this in spagetti junction of water pipes, gas mains and pant wettingly high voltage cables.

Just cause you wandered around a site doing this and that before does not mean you will get away with it now- no CS card, no ppe, no valid insurance and the foreman will tell you get off the site pronto. Even if you are just whacking stuff on existing hoardings you need to report in and shown your tickets- if you don’t the site agent will go nuts..

But when i was speaking to a site forman the other week, (he works on very big projects) he was telling me most of the building sites around london are full of people who can’t even speak english, who think its OK to leave live cabling wrapped in tape?? TBH i think theses cards are just a waste of time and are only for making money….

Simon

[signworxs]

Wrote this in a different post earlier but covers this post as well.

Also a bit O/T and NOT aimed at Derek or this post subject, but I can actualy empathise with Phills comment to some extent, there does seem to be a load of new blood coming into the trade within the last year, nothing wrong with that they are most welcome, we always need talented designers / applicators etc. However there also seems to be a lot of posts around from newbies of the “how do I apply vinyl” “will you design my sign for me” theme, and there have been some that basic. I wouldnt dream of suddenly saying “I know I’ll become a plasterer today” then go on ukplasterboards (pun intended) and post how do I apply plaster. I did an apprenticeship in the trade and learnt about colour, legability and layout, but now you just spend £2k on kit and wey hey your a “signmaker”……… not. I stress this is NOT aimed at Derek or any particular “newbie” just as I see it from the posts of late. I should also say that I have also seen some newbie work posted that was of very good quality. I know we are all prepared to help out anyone, I have also asked for advice. I teach signmaking at the local college and I know I’ve helped a lot of youngsters and not so young into the trade many of them are now my competition but newcomers should really seek some kind of training in the basics and while some of that training/help can come from these boards in the way of advice and tips and tricks it is not a substitute for hands on training. My workshop doors are always open to anyone and still do get past trainees coming back or phoning for advice which I gladly give where I know the answer. My signature on these boards when we had them was “never too old to learn”
Just my 2p’s worth and slap on th wrists accepted with grace. Off my soapbox now.

(edit) by the way, by newbie I mean new to the trade not new to the boards.

[David-Foster-]

quote signworxs:

“I know I’ll become a plasterer today” then go on ukplasterboards (pun intended) and post how do I apply plaster. I did an apprenticeship in the trade and learnt about colour, legability and layout, but now you just spend £2k on kit and wey hey your a “signmaker”……… not.

That is so spot on! I bet a lot of people on here wanted to say that… 😉

[Martin Cole]

Well said!!
I studied Advertising and Design at college years ago, we used to hand draw Times Roman when studying fonts. I detest poor layout on signage. I could go on!!

As to becoming a plasterer overnight ( and this will bring a smile to your face) I done a van last week for a couple of guys who I have previously worked for they make iron gates etc. The van was for plastering drylining etc, they had leaflets printed everything. After I had completed the van I asked how long they had been plastering, they both smiled and said they had never done it and were going on a crash course that week.
They had chucked in the other business and decided to become plasters, as you do!! Let me know if you need any done and I’ll send you their details.

[David-Foster-]

Giz a job! I can do dat, buildin walls iz easy.

Wow a crash course, plastering and bricklaying are art forms. It never fails to amaze me when watching a brickie and plasterer work, amazing. It would take a week to learn how not to drop all the plaster on the floor from the trowel! 😀

[Hugh Potter]

i’m not saying the cs thing card is not worth having, i’m interested because i know there’ll likely come a time when i would need it, much of the big site work i did was before the cs card was even thought of,

re the training thing, let me put it this way,

before the forklift licence became mandatory, i had been driving them on various jobs for years, and as such has what was know as grandfather rights, now, not ony because i’ve not driven them for a while, but also beause the hse now states that everyone must get the qcertificate i would have to do the course if i wanted to drive them again,

so what if they bring out a new certified thing, say a 6-12 month course, or nvq which can be done in a similar time, depending on the assessor. and they say thay those doing it for x amount of years get grandather rights, and then change the law to include everyone who wishes to make and install signs ?

would you be happy, even tho you may have already done a course, or degree, at having to now comply and do a long drawn out course that will come from your pocket ???

i’m not saying this to be facaecious, just to point out what happens on virtually everything that hse introduces for newcomers, whats starts out as being for newcomers eventually includes everyone !

i’m currently looking into doing various subsidised courses thru a local enterprise centre, 2 day business course, book keeping etc, there are extremely few worthwhile courses in signmaing that are either local to me, part time, or cheap/subsidised.

i think everyone should do a health and safety course (i have), i also have manual handling, fire evacuation training cert, first aid cert, food hygene (not that it really applies much to this, until perhaps you need to work in a large commercial kitchen for any reason), and several other courses,

a good design is down to personal / public opinion, i might not like a sign i see, but others of you might, and vice versa !

show me a sensible course, sensible money and convenient timetables, and i’ll do it !! they’re just not there, and at 32 with kids and a mortgage to help pay for, i cant afford to go to uni, unless of course i work from my bedroom doing cheap ebay stuff to subsiduse my education costs !!!!!

Iain, pm received, unable to reply tho, thank you !

[David Rowland]

Wow, lots to read… I just answer the topic for now as I think this the other day while driving home, I wouldn’t mind signing up to some regulatry body to try and get more coorporate work, however we are in the West Country and there isn’t that many where i am

That BGSA that was posted might be what I am looking for, i shall read it and see as ‘badging’ the company would hopefully have some meaning.

[Hugh Potter]

i’ve worked for several ‘badged’ companies, and while one was excellent, they other two couldnt give a flying …… last place i worked had some ISO rating thing, we used to get two weeks notice of a ‘spot check’ and then the bosses would go all out to clear certain areas, make sure that everything was away where it should be (chemicals) etc, despite me often commenting to my so called manager about people leaving unsealed tubs / cartons of acid on the workbenches, and bodged wiring (wires shoved in sockets with matches when testing a machine with no plug !) they couldnt give a monkeys until they knew the inspector was coming round, !!! i’d’ve loved health d safety to walk thru the door unannounced !

i think smallers companies (up to five workers including owners), and thos employing hundreds, are fine, it’s thie middly employers that seem least interested in it all, they just want to be seen to meet certain standards !

[Paul.Hill]

In my opinion the consensus is that a bit of training wouldn’t go a miss for all the newbies. Quality of job is the most important thing good design & manufacture. Maybe the sign board should start it’s own training program for all the newbies. Therefor giving them a good sound starting block also why not make our own sign design & manufacturing guide that could be available on line for anyone who needs help.

[hullitec]

Hi Hugh,
The CSCS card will be obtainable to experienced fitters by having to complete the installation unit only of an NVQ.
Obviously, experienced fitters, are or should be more aware of the ins and outs of on-site work and how to carry out the work safely so i think they would only have to show their competance to an assessor on a set number of occasions.
They will also do certain H & S training that will compliment this also.
Criteria will be set for them to demonstrate they can handle certain situations etc.

A full NVQ holds 4 mandatory units and 3 optional, so if you were a young apprentice and a fitters mate one of your optionals would be the installation unit, if you applied vinyl you would choose the application unit and so on. If you were young and working towards the fitting unit you would get a trainee type of card to allow you on site with an experienced colleague.

My own view is that you will get the experienced fitters who are dead set against this, teaching Granny to suck eggs if you like.

Many of the larger companies here in Hull ensured that all their fitters achieved the on-site licence by sending them to training centres before the April deadline kicked in and the NVQ unit was required, where as now they would have to use accredited centres who deliver NVQ`s.

Hope it helps a little
(It is all new so i am trying to get my head around it still)

Cheers
Mike

[Hugh Potter]

thanks mike !

was just looking through soe aperwork i collected when i went to the business enterprise centre last week, i’ve seen there is an nvq and will look into it, for personal reasons rather than peer pressure, but i fear it wil be expensive, it’s not like i’m having it paid for by a subsidised employer !

i’ll see what i need to do, i know how nvq’s work as the girlfiend is doing her level 4 in mental health nursing and is an assessor too, it really depends how much work based it is, it’s not like i work on signs everyday, as much as i’d like too, i’m building this fairly slowly, so it might prove dificult to get the assessor to come along for the ‘witness’ statements when required !
cheeers.
Hugh

[Stephen Morriss]

I don’t think you should have to have a qualification or certificate to make normal run of the mill small signs.

However if you are making larger signage and or fitting I think you should have had some training in the safe design and fitting of these structures and signs.

I used to be an engineer and spent years at collage and working as an engineer on site and I know for a fact that having a qualification doesn’t make you any more competent but it does go some way to letting others who don’t know you see that you have had some training which should make you more aware of the dangers of incorrect fitting/design.

As to the site certificate, not all sites accept it and still insist on you taking their induction course but again it shows a site manager that you should be aware of most of the dangers and know the working procedures.

All electrical connections etc must be done by and/or signed off by a “certified” electrician, the certified bit is important as an electrician that hasn’t worked for a while won’t be certified.

Steve

[John Wilson]

Just did a search for qualifications and came across this post. plenty to read and some really good points.

My local college is doing a HNC in Signmaking and is covering sign fabrication and neon/led making as well as all other aspects so I’m thinking of doing it since it’s only 2 days a week for the term.

[francprint]

quote Paul Hill:

😀 😀 do you think you should have a formal certificate like a plumber, joiner to be a sign maker. Or should anybody just make signs ?

Yes its a great idea,
another way the government can wreck yet another industry and ruin enterprise.

What’s Blair and Brown going to do when no-one is working anymore?

Ahh, they won’t be running the country then, will they! Muppets

Please don’t give the do-gooders ideas like this, they too read industry related sites and are only to happy to apply stupid legislation

[Robert Lambie]

I Definitely think there should be something… CSCS debate is one thing, but i don’t want to go there, for now, as that obviously doesn’t cover what is needed trade wide.
we are a trade, so there should be something to prove we are certified in what we offer, and at what level. paying large sums of money for a bit of paper isn’t the answer.
i was a confectionist/baker for nearly two years before getting into signs. although my employer and i regarded myself as damn good at what i did, i was on pocket change for wages and would have to have a minimum of 4 years under my belt before getting any sort of papers and proper pay.
i would say our trade has far more to learn making signs and far more consequences for badly made signs. such as public safety… so whats the catch?
like i said, something is needed.

[Peter Normington]

Can of worms dosnt really apply, NOT.

Signage is a very diverse and complex industry. —Stickers to mega large structural fabrications. If you want a 20m x 20m illuminated neon sign, its unlikely that you would just get it done by someone who didnt have a track record.
if a certificate is needed for what you do then conform. Its a bit like saying anyone can fit a gas boiler, but would you trust someone who was not corgi registered?
if you want to get rid of cowboys, we all need to be certified 😀

Peter

[Robert Lambie]

quote Peter Normington:

if you want to get rid of cowboys, we all need to be certified 😀

Peter

exactly, but with various levels of qualifications needed depending on whats being offered.
the reality is, yellow pages is lifted and on the phone goes the customer. he doesnt know if john wayne has lifted the phone or joe the sign pro.

joe the sign pro will say yeh… no problem, we can do it. but so will john whilst finishing his plate of beans :lol1:
the customer will be stung before he realises it… but by then mr wayne will now be a brick layer building his first block of flats 😉

[Peter Normington]

Stickers on vans, can be bad quality, but will not really be a risk to anyone.
But any sign that is attached to a building, or even free standing, needs to be done in a safe way. Experience tells us the best way to do it, so to certify that you have the experience, or at least read and understood how it should be done, cant be a bad thing?
I agree, there should be a varying degree of qualification, like a driving license to drive a moped, or a 40 tonner.

Peter

[Phill Fenton]

quote francprint:

quote Paul Hill:

😀 😀 do you think you should have a formal certificate like a plumber, joiner to be a sign maker. Or should anybody just make signs ?

Yes its a great idea,
another way the government can wreck yet another industry and ruin enterprise.

What’s Blair and Brown going to do when no-one is working anymore?

Ahh, they won’t be running the country then, will they! Muppets

Please don’t give the do-gooders ideas like this, they too read industry related sites and are only to happy to apply stupid legislation

I couldn’t agree more. we are over run with legislation in this country as it is – who in their right mind wants to impose more.

The Circus Tightrope walker who is busy writing his risk assesment is probably even more p1ssed off than I am 😛

[Andy Gorman]

Yeah right. What else? A certificate to fit a window frame? A diploma in satellite dish fitting?

Much as I generally hate councils, maybe they should use some of that money they take for planning applications, to actually ensure that works are carried out to a decent standard and with suitable materials.

I know of plenty of people who have certificates but couldn’t justify them. Blimey, I’m a qualified electrician but you definitely wouldn’t want me fixing your telly!

[Peter Normington]

What it boils down to is this, if you want to do the work, and charge accordingly, and you need a bit of paper that puts you at an advantage, then get the bit of paper, once you have it, you will then be in demand. above the ones that dont have the bit of paper. in todays world, you need to prove that you are not a cowboy 😀
Peter

[Peter Normington]

quote Andy Gorman:

Yeah right. What else? A certificate to fit a window frame? A diploma in satellite dish fitting?

Much as I generally hate councils, maybe they should use some of that money they take for planning applications, to actually ensure that works are carried out to a decent standard and with suitable materials.

I know of plenty of people who have certificates but couldn’t justify them. Blimey, I’m a qualified electrician but you definitely wouldn’t want me fixing your telly!

Well Andy, the first industry I would recommend need qualifications is the window frame (double glazing) fitters.
.
just judging by the number of complaints that that industry attracts 😀

Peter

[John Childs]

quote Andy Gorman:

A diploma in satellite dish fitting?

These boys beat you to it Andy. 😀 😀 😀

http://www.cai.org.uk

I’m not sure that employing a member will ensure a better job. All it does is provide a bit of reassurance to the public. Those that feel they need their hand holding when they have a new aerial erected.

[Andy Gorman]

The point I’m making is this: some bloke goes out to fit a satellite dish, he runs out of expanding bolts (which are the recommended fixing) so he bungs a 1 inch self tapper into the hole instead. He can have have all the certificates in the World, it doesn’t mean he’ll do the job properly.

Call me a cynic, but I suspect anything like this to be a money making scam for someone. Probably the government. Yeah, that’s it. Buggers.

[David Rogers]

quote Dave Harrison:

How does the law stand on the fitting of lightboxes and illuminated signage ?

I would have thought that due to the recent changes in the Law all electrical fitting and installation must be carried out by a certified electrician and signed off to say its safe ?

Not having done this sort of work, I would assume most sign companies have an electrician on their books / payroll ?

The law is a bit fuzzy about electrical installations. The IEE regs are clear :roll:. A popular option exploited by many a signmaker is to turn your lightbox / neon installation into a ‘portable appliance’ by having a 2m cable & a 13amp plug on it. Plug into a pre-supplied socket & it’s entirely legal. (So far!)

Most corporate sites I’ve worked on, including a few public buildings require the whole palaver of risk assesments & method statements with a copy of your public liability insurance – I just keep a basic set on file & modify them to suit the location. Any electrical work usually requires a ‘competent person’ and not necessarily ’16th edition’ (Handy, since I was an electrical technician in a previous life…) – if they NEED certification they can arrange for a sparky themselves to connect three wires…

On the whole, certification means that they passed on the day of the test. Nothing more. It won’t make them a better designer, impart any more common sense or improve their skills. It WILL mean that they KNOW that a job is ‘to code’ or not – it WON’T stop them installing a poorly designed, badly manufactured, potentially lethally fixed sign!!

eg. The BSGA – good in principle, but accomplishes nothing in reality other than you can put a nice little logo on your van. I know one company who is a member and they have repeatedly turned out the most godforsaken, poorly designed & constructed signage, wired boxed incorrectly, damaged paintwork on £80k vehicles etc.
Like Andy Gorman "Cynic? Moi?" :lol1:

Dave

[Matt Hards]

hi, As a newbie signmaker, I would love to able to do a course. To learn more, new techniques, more about design and layout etc. I started out a year ago now, and it is hard to become established. Obviously you guys know how much money it is to set up in signmaking, I didnt want to go the ebay route, I bought equipment all suggested by a signmaking friend in the midlands. Summa d60 etc.
I love doing this job, It gives me a real buzz, much like it probably does to you guys. I am young, 21, I am out there making an effort to run my own business. To do well for myself and future family etc etc.
If all these certificates etc etc come into play, i cannot afford to do them all and still advertise, pay the bills, outgoings etc etc. Not at this point in my business. It just isnt big enough for that yet.
I guess I am a "newbie signmaker" who doesnt know all the ins and outs yet, but Im learning all the time, I want to do this as a job, so theres no point in making half arsed signs, because Ill never get anywhere.
I would be interested in doing some training, courses etc definitely, but like hugh has said , who lives local to me, there isnt much choice around here, and costs are high. Maybe I would think about that more when more established. If i get pushed under by all the costs of certs and courses, im never even going to get off the ground…. This is just my view as a newbie.

[Marcella Ross]

Certificates??????? Courses??????? What ever happened to apprenticeships, working with the experienced tradesmen, gaining your own experience and learning your trade.
😮

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Marcella:

Certificates??????? Courses??????? What ever happened to apprenticeships, working with the experienced tradesmen, gaining your own experience and learning your trade.
😮

😀 i agree….theres no better experience gained than hands on seeing the day to day running of a business…..you learn quicker seeing mistakes and making them 😀

nik

[Peter Normington]

Nik and Marcella,
I agree, nothing like hands on, but apprenticeships lead to a CERTIFICATE
to say you have done the training.

Stickers on vans dont need any safety requirements (usually)

But I would always choose a tradesman with a certificate, than without.
wouldnt you? how else do you regulate cowboys?

and I would rather not let someone practice their mistakes on me 😀

Peter

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Peter Normington:

and I would rather not let someone practice their mistakes on me 😀
Peter

yeh i know peter…but its the only way to learn 😀

nik

[Paul Franklin]

I’ve started to write several replies to this post which would have been very long winded and then stopped myself.

So my answer to the original question is "NO"