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Shame, isn’t it?
It’s a shame that someone can afford a digital printer,
but has no ability whatsoever to use it.
Look at this crap banner that someone dropped off.
I have to change the dates.
Look at the pixellation!
If this is what a digital printer can do, I’m glad I don’t have one.
Love….Jill
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73 Replies
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Trouble is, a lot of people don’t bring in camera ready artwork, so when you say it £25 for the print and £100 to do the artwork, they say just enlarge it.. That’s properly what happen to that banner
Simon
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quote Simon C:Trouble is, a lot of people don’t bring in camera ready artwork, so when you say it £25 for the print and £100 to do the artwork, they say just enlarge it.. That’s properly what happen to that bannerSimon
Yep. I see this all of the time here. Some local ‘expert’ with a copy of photoshop designs something for their home ink jet printer and they just can’t accept that enlarging the image isn’t the best course of action. There are also occasions where people just grab images quickly off of the internet and ask you to incorporate them into the banner… that can be much worse if the nice little picture they would like to use is 25mm x 25mm in size.
The funny thing is that a lot of the times it’s true that the actual graphic professionals don’t understand the resolution requirements of digital. For those people I just tell them to make the raster graphic 25% size at 400 ppi and they find it simple enough to work with.
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The real problem is that people are just plain STUPID! It’s never their fault, always the person that printed it and the printer will tell you it was the clients fault. Without hearing both sides of the story though we’ll never know whos fault it was. I’m sure you will make it beautiful though Jill. 😀
-Marek -
Here’s a chance to use Dan Sawatzky’s “squigly” line technique of painting. :lol1:
-Marek -
The original sign shop should have knocked this back if the artwork was not that great, but then, they may not really have cared.
I hate the customers that say “just use the picture on the web site for the 3 metre banner”
Had a guy yesterday give me a 72dpi image about the size of a postage stamp, and want a quote to half wrap his van. Got really cheesed when I said I could not use it. Apparently ‘the sign bloke down the road’ didn’t say he couldn’t use it, so I must be less experienced! 👿 :banghead:
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I don’t care. I used to when I was young and idealistic but I’m tired of fighting the same old battles. It’s their problem. If they want to pay for rubbish then I will supply it.
However, I will blow up their image to actual size and print off an A4 section so that they can actually see the amount of pixellation and leave them in no doubt as to exactly what they are going to get for their money. Very, very few want to go ahead after seeing my prints, but for those that do, I get money up front so that they cannot change their minds later when they see the finished van or, in this case, banner.
Not professional? Well maybe, and I have to say that I’m not keen on doing it, but on the other hand what right do I have to impose my perception of acceptable quality onto others? Let’s face it, if quality was what the public wanted, or even recognised if they saw it, then places like WalMart and Matalan would go out of business.
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Hi people,
It’s all about standards, I’m a traditional signwriter and would NEVER let a job go to a client that was not perfect, in business you need to build yourself a reputation for producing the best work you are capable of and try to live up to that standart, otherwise we will all loose out and work will just decline until nobody gives a s**t.Brian
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Brian,
Whilst I understand your view, and have a lot of sympathy with it, I’m not entirely sure that you are totally correct. The only way to stay in business is to supply what the customer wants to buy. No more and no less.
Fair enough, when we are busy we can pick and choose the jobs we are prepared to take on, but if a customer comes in on a quiet afternoon when my staff are sitting round drinking tea wanting a cheap job, and isn’t prepared to pay for anything better, then he is very likely to get served. In those circumstances I consider my prime responsibility, apart from my own wellbeing, to be towards my staff and if that bad job helps to pay their wages and keep them in employment then I will go for it.
What’s the alternative? If we don’t do it the customer will just go elsewhere and give someone else his money. He will get what he wants but my staff and myself would lose out.
Some might consider that this attitude makes me a cowboy. They might be right, but my opinion is that provided that the customer knows exactly what he is getting for his money, and there is no attempt to rip him off, then there is not a problem. Charging top money for a cr@p job is, in my opinion, another matter altogether.
There is room in any market place for differing standards. I buy most of my shirts made to measure and pay about £100 each for them whilst all of my friends pay about a tenner from Matalan or wherever. Should they be criticised for their choice of tailor? Or Matalan for offering them for sale?
Sure, given the choice, we would all like to be making Rolls Royces but some people can only afford a Skoda
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Yee Ha cowboy.. 😉
I agree with both John & Brian there.. If i had a printer/cutter, and some one came in with a thumb nail image and wanted it enlarged to 2m square, i would do the same as John, and if they still wanted it, i would do it for say £50. However if they had come in and said Bob down the road can do it for £50 can you do it cheaper i would say no, i can do it for £55, Wpuld it be woth saving £5 to go back to Bobs so i would make an extra £5…Simon
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quote Jillbeans:If this is what a digital printer can do, I’m glad I don’t have one.
Love….JillIt is not the printer Jill, its the operator 🙄
Clearly a sign of a ‘bank balance but no clue’.
I agree with everyone here, the arguments are sound, but my philosophy has always been that if I am not happy to put my name on the job, I’d rather not do it.
My income is by referals. My work gets me work. If I did too many of this type of thing, I’d have to start advertising for busines again, which is not something I wish to do.
We have a local guy here, that does this type of pixelated banner all the time. He has a reputation for doing cheap signs. That is not the reputation I want, so I’ll still pass these jobs up.
The thing with this banner tho, is that at some time it must have been vector. The text is pixelated too. So the home bod has probably done it on his PC in microsoft paint or publisher, saved it as a jpeg, and given it to the print guy (or girl). I have Shortcuts on the PC which would have blown this up without pixelation. There are ways around it if you do your home work. That is what makes some sign shops better than others in my opinion.
Thats my 2c anyway
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Money or no, I would never let a job like this out my door.
What really fried me was when I heard the client paid $175 for it.
I don’t care if it was a bad .jpg or not, stuff like this makes us all look bad in the long run.
Love….Jill -
You know, sometimes it’s not actually the product but the way the client is treated that will end up doing more for you in the long run. In cases like this, often the client knows that he (she) got hosed at a previous shop and that’s why he’s dropped into the new one. I suppose, sticklers for perfection can tell the client why the job he spent his hard earned money on sucks. But what does that do; make the client feel badly and even if the new shop doesn’t get the job the client is left with a bad taste.
Like I said, I get the perfectionist angle that many people aim for. I’ve got a drum scanner in my shop which at one time was worth more than a nice home. Turns out that for every client who demanded drum scanner quality there were perhaps two that found my offer to scan their images insulting or they left feeling that my shop was too “high-end” for their needs. I sometimes wonder how much money was lost because I always pushed for perfection rather than meeting the needs of the end-user…
Anyway, besides aimlessly rambling I just wanted to offer my thoughts that if a client leaves in a happy frame of mind there’s a good chance that he will be back and each time that happens you get a chance for a little bit of education. Often after a few orders that client will become more appreciative of the higher-end service.
Of course I could be full of it…
Rob
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I too understand and apply the concept of pride in one’s work and good design and all that but in essence If we set ourselves up in business we are there to serve the client and not ourselves.
Not all of us have the luxury to pick and choose or turn away jobs cos they don’t meet OUR standards. So long as you do the best you are capable of working within the clients brief and supplied artwork , deliver on time and at a reasonable price , you wont give yourself or anyone a bad name. I too would refuse to do some jobs , but perhaps for different reasons. I would not do a banner saying “Congratulations to the 4 suicide bombers” or something like that. -
When I get duff images like this, I make sure the customer is aware of what the output will be like. He can then make an informed choice. Often they will manage to find better artwork but sometimes they are happy to go ahead.
I seem no moral or professional dilemma in supplying a less than perfect image if that is what the customer wants. Of course I won’t supply a completely ridiculous quality image becase my name is associated with the product.
In this example you should remember that it is a banner, viewed from a distance, for the customer’s purpose. It is not a work of art or an aesthetic exercise for a signmaker.
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I’m sorry, but I try to do my best on everything I make.
I do view each sign (even banners) as works of art
and I have great pride in my work.
Not that I would ever agree with letting something like this go out my door,
but to think that someone had the balls to charge more than I would have for a good banner, and the customer still bought it, that bugs me.
If I didn’t want to spend the time replicating their crappy artwork,
I would have at least just typed in the wording fresh and printed that.
If they didn’t like it, I would have done as others suggested and shown them what the highly pixellated image would look like.
The size of this banner would be in my $125 range, for a banner that looks great.
This was for a church’s vacation bible school, so it was probably made from an artwork kit that churches buy. However, it was not donated to the church. Even if it was donated, it should still look good.
It is a reflection on your shop, and not a good one, to make this crap.
I’m sorry if I sound smug or old-fashioned, but that is just how I am.
I’d rather be broke than do a job like this one.
Looks like the work of a cowboy to me!
Hopefully once he goes out of business, someone decent will buy his equipment.
Love….Jill -
God works in mysterious ways…….
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[quote=”Jillbeans
Hopefully once he goes out of business, someone decent will buy his equipment.
Love….Jill[/quote]There you go Jill, put in an offer 🙂
Steve
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I’m with you on this one Jill
If I have art work brought to me like that I can’t help myself I have to re do it………must be something in a traditional signwriters make up..
I am in business to make money, but my job is also my hobby, I love what I do with a passion, even more when i have my brush in hand, so for me to turn out work like that would give me no satisfaction at all. If a customer has a limited budget then give them what they are paying for………I agree but in this case that was not achieved. You sometimes have to give a customer a more simple job, a simple effective sign does not meen compromising standards.
I guess for me at the end of the day it’s not all about profits, we spend the greater part of our life at work so it may as well be fun.
Keep up the good work Jill
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:thumbsup: Jill
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I agree with Jill on this one.
Trouble is that too many people come into this trade on a whim thinking they can make a quick buck, that you don’t need any training and that the job is easy.
Technology has driven down realistic pricing in the sign trade or should I say the ‘Start Up Overnight’ sign shops have.
I served a 4 year apprenticeship with a brush and it wasn’t easy so I value my craft, and it’s about time more of us did.
It makes me cringe when I see some of the bad workmanship around and I’m sorry johnchilds, if someone wanted that quality of work off me I’d send them away. Maybe I could send them to you?
So, if it’s a choice between turning out a crap piece of work because thats what the customer wanted or losing £100, I’d lose the money because I would never want my name associated with a piece of crap.
Neil
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It has been mentioned before on these boards- a piece of software called S-Spline which enlarges images very well and without the really nasty type of pixellation, when we first got the versaCAMM I used to spend ages (sometimes a full day) sorting artwork out so that it looked stunning but when the customers came they didn’t give it a second glance and the price had barely covered the cost of doing the artwork.
Now we have 2 different services, one is a for print, and the other is artwork; by doing that we have separated the two in the customer’s mind so they don’t expect artwork to be built into the price. For customers that don’t want to pay for the artwork we have a sheet that tells them how to prepare ‘camera ready’ artwork.
Photoshop is a dangerous tool in the wrong hands!
Rob
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I run my business firstly to make a profit to support my family.
I cannot afford to be a tempermental “Artist” I need to make a living. (I’ve tried being an Artist but I’m not good enough 😳 )
I often cringe at the rubbish I am asked to produce and offer advice to try and make something better. Sometimes the customer just wants it “his way” . If so, I do it his way, and take his money. That doesn’t make me a cowboy, I’m a business man out to make a living.
The answer when asked to print something like this is to ask the customer to sign an affadavit in which he promises never to tell anyone you did his work. Then take his money and run 😳
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quote rightsigns:I run my business firstly to make a profit to support my family.
I cannot afford to be a tempermental “Artist” I need to make a living. (I’ve tried being an Artist but I’m not good enough 😳 )
I often cringe at the rubbish I am asked to produce and offer advice to try and make something better. Sometimes the customer just wants it “his way” . If so, I do it his way, and take his money. That doesn’t make me a cowboy, I’m a business man out to make a living.
The answer when asked to print something like this is to ask the customer to sign an affadavit in which he promises never to tell anyone you did his work. Then take his money and run 😳
Couldn’t agree more
Rob
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quote chorley signs:quote rightsigns:I run my business firstly to make a profit to support my family.
I cannot afford to be a tempermental “Artist” I need to make a living. (I’ve tried being an Artist but I’m not good enough 😳 )
I often cringe at the rubbish I am asked to produce and offer advice to try and make something better. Sometimes the customer just wants it “his way” . If so, I do it his way, and take his money. That doesn’t make me a cowboy, I’m a business man out to make a living.
The answer when asked to print something like this is to ask the customer to sign an affadavit in which he promises never to tell anyone you did his work. Then take his money and run 😳
Couldn’t agree more- Chorley Signs has fed a family for 17 years by giving the customer what they want and not what we want
Rob
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Neil,
I think I’m beginning to see a pattern here.
It seems to me that the people getting the most huffy about quality are the brush experts, the ones who, like yourself, have maybe done a four year apprenticeship, are good at their job and, because of the dearth of traditional signwriting skills, can maybe charge a fair price for the amount of time they put into a job. Could there also be some resentment about all the newcomers setting up overnight with no skills or training at all and taking away custom or at least reducing price?. But that’s the same in any trade as barriers to entry are lowered either through legislation, technology or opportunity. To my eye there is very little that I can buy today that is as good a quality as it was fifty years ago but the prices are considerably lower. That is something that isn’t going to get better and we all have to get used to it whether we like it or not.
I make no secret of the fact that I cannot do traditional sign work for toffee and without computers I would have to be in a different line of work, but can you get out your paints and finish fifty vans in a day like we sometimes have to?
Don’t get me wrong here, I don’t like doing stuff like Jill’s banner and will do all I can to talk the customer into something better but if there is no other work around I am going to talk to him as the only alternative is to tell one of my staff that they are out of work and not to bother coming back next week. If my only overheads were my own wages, a few pots of paint and a brush then I could afford to be a bit more high minded about things.
So, by all means, send them around. If we have no other work on then we will be happy to accept your cast-offs. 🙂
PS. Good thread Jill! 🙂
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Im very much in agreement with John here.
But to go back to the start of the thread, I would have told the guy to take the banner back to where he got it from to change the dates, or I would have offered him a complete replacement. Nothing I hate more than patching or changing someone elses crepe. I always think that if you do, you will be remembered for doing the whole sign!
I would have thought our Jill, (who does turn out some brill work) Would have done the same.
Just My 2 bobs worth.
Peter -
I agree with both points of view here…. kind of. If I was as gifted as Jill then I’m sure I’d feel exactly the same…. however I’m NOT! So I would do a job to suit the customers pocket…. I’m trying to earn a living and unfortunately can’t be too choosy, besides there aren’t enough customers who are willing to pay a lot of money for good work. Times are such that everyone is looking for a bargain. I have one customer who never asks ‘how much’ just here’s what I want on my vans, charge whatever it will cost to make it look like this. Great. But on the other hand I have a customer who says here’s what I’m prepared to spend, do what you can for that. Funny thing is he loves his vans and always asks me to put my name on it to advertise. But I won’t, I HATE them! I think they’re horrible but he loves them so what else do you do….? The customer is always right and afterall it is their cash!
By the way John….. £100 a shirt…… you must be doing OK!!! 😀 Next you’ll be telling us you’re shopping in Saville Row! A biker in a sharp suit… there’s an image! 😉
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i am now middle of the road… i try to the best with what I have. If I don’t get what I ask for, I ask for better. If not, my price would reflect the work I have to do or it becomes cheap and crap, but I would let the customer know that it would be crap. if not, re-design and talk-em into a better solution.
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Marcella,
If only! I’m the sort of person that no matter how good the clothes, when I put them on they look like potato sacks. I can make Armani look scruffy. 🙂
I’ve got a big neck and, as that is how shirts are sized, if the collar fits the rest is like a tent on me. It’s not actually that expensive because I live in T shirts so I only need a few decent ones for going out in (or visiting clients). Shirts are the only thing I spend a lot of money on – my favourite article of clothing is a denim jacket that cost me £6 in Matalan which I took home and promptly cut the sleeves off.
Back to work! I have noticed that more and more customers, some very big ones who have never queried price before, are now starting to ask how costs can be cut so I think this cost versus quality problem is going to get worse.
And maybe that is another reason for differing attitudes here. If an owner/operator wants to spend a couple of hundred pounds extra on his vehicle he will do it because it will give him pleasure for as long as he keeps it. My customers, on the other hand, if they can spend £20 less per van come out £20,000 better off over their replacement cycle.
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I agree with Peter here, and would have tried to avoid the patch-up job by offering a full remake of the banner. Hopefully the client would notice the obvious better quality in workmanship.
You would then have one new and happy customer, and would have helped improve the standards of signage too!! Everyone wins!!
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John,
I was only kidding about sending customers to you, there’s a guy near me I would send them to. 😀
But I still think we should all have high standards with regard to the type of work we produce and we should point this out to customers. I know that a crap sign isn’t dangerous or life threatening but would an electrician or plumber accept our view on how a job is to be carried out if they know we’re talking boll*cks? No, I don’t think they would.
And to be perfectly honest I do get a little resentful of the overnight startups because I am proud of the craft that I’ve been involved in for the past 26 years.
I know this may go against the grain but on occasion I put more effort into a job than it’s worth and suffer a loss because I want to do a good job 😕 Guess thats the starving artist in me 😉
Neil
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“Starving artists are the bane of the cowboys life” to quote an old African proverb!
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quote ndsigns:I know this may go against the grain but on occasion I put more effort into a job than it’s worth and suffer a loss because I want to do a good job 😕 Guess thats the starving artist in me 😉
Neili’m the same… 😉 and i wont change… 😛
nik
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I think most of us are Nik I won’t do a bad job, some times you hate what youv’e done but thats because it’s what the customer wants, it’s like Marcella says customer says put your name on but you don’t want any one to know you have done it !! I always have to do a good job with what ever I am given 🙄
Lynn
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quote Lynn:some times you hate what youv’e done but thats because it’s what the customer wants
i still refuse to do what they want… 😀 and have never hated what i have done 😉
nik
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I’d rather be a rich cowboy than a starving artist 😕
(I still have my poetry and music I can turn to in my spare time 😳 )
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John, I do see a pattern here too, but probably in a different light.
I can’t use a brush either, but I think I am a damn good ‘computer sign writer/artist’. Not as good as some here mind you, but better than a lot of my local opposition. But I also appreciate the traditional craft. I employed 2 painters early on in my business, but had to let them go because I could not find them enough work. I still refer local work to the traditional guys if I think the client will get a better job.
I think the small one man band, like Jill, me and a couple of others here, have less to lose financially so can be more ‘true to their own ideals’. Others here that employ staff have much higher expenses and the wages bill would tend to dictate what comes thru the door, rather than the idea of being true to ones own criteria.
I am not being critical here so I hope no one is offended because that is not my intention.
I got out of my big shop employing 14 people 8 years ago because I was beccoming a shop that had to pump out any sort of rubbish because I had bills to pay. I was reluctant to have our name on some work, because it was awful.
I now have the opportunity to be true to my ideals again. Yes I pass up some work if it does not fit my own criteria. Only last week I passed up an full makeover for an adult shop. I am in a very religious community and the public fealing was strong against its opening. I didn’t want to be associated with the shop, so I let it go. If I employed staff tho, I doubt I could have afforded too.
I have not advertised since ’96. In the early days I questioned my own ideals as I was struggling to start up as a 1 man band, but now a few years on, my reputation is in my signs. Doing work like the banner that Jill displayed here would be detrimental to my business and would cost me more than the money I’d lose by knocking back the job.
Simply put, you can not buy a good reputation for any money, but a bad reputation is free!
My 2cs again
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Ive thought of a way round tis problem…..
1. do the crappy job and take the money
2. put the name of a local”fly by night” on it
3. put photo in potfolio and show prospective clients the standard of work available from the competitionResult!!!!
(I’m only saying wot everyone was thinking) 😀
Iain
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Hot topic huh???
I for one wouldn’t put out that type of work. However I would have changed the date font to look obviously different so that I’m not trying to match the crap that was the rest of the job…That way the customer gets what they need and I wouldn’t have to mess with my integrity.
For the whole debate on taking the money vs doing a quality job…At the end of the day all we really have is our reputation and our integrity. It takes years to build a good reputation and about five minutes to destroy it.
Good for you Jill…
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(mod-edit) :police3: admin@uksignboards.com
Whoops! Another misdemeanor! Sorry.
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Well said Leeroy, reputation is everything. I’m very surprised at the amount of people on this site that admit to being ‘Cowboys’, and seem quite proud of it.
Like I said before I’d rather send the job somewhere else than lose my reputation for a couple of quid.
Surely you ‘Signmakers’ can’t be that desperate.
Neil
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isint being in business all about striking a balance where you have to take the rough with the smooth but its how far you go out of balance
Chris
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Like I said before Neil, different priorities.
I don’t think I’m a cowboy because I always make sure that the customer always knows exactly what he is going to get for his money and is not disappointed. I can, however, appreciate that my attitude may make me so in some people’s eyes.
Desperate? Not always, but the fact remains that whether times are good or bad I have to make a PROFIT of fifteen thousand quid EVERY week to pay overheads and expenses and I can tell you that it wouldn’t take many bad weeks before I closed the doors.
So what would you like me to do? I could make my staff redundant and throw them out of work so that they could not pay their mortgages and lose their houses. Make them struggle to feed themselves and their children and, of course, holidays would be out of the question for them and their lives generally made a misery. I’m not keen so perhaps you would like to come down here first thing in the morning and break the happy news that their world has just been thrown upside down and they will have to sell their cars because they won’t be able to afford the repayments on them in future.
What time shall I put the kettle on?
You can explain gently to them that they are now out of work because they are very occasionally called on to carry out work that doesn’t meet your standards.
You’ll have to do it because I’m not going to. I don’t have the heart to do that to people who have done almost as much as myself to make this business a success. What I’m going to do is to carry on doing the best I can with what I have and if that means that sometimes we are forced to turn out something that gets sneered at by competitors then so be it I can live with it.
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All this talk of artistry and integrity is a little bit pompous and has the smell of moralistic hypocrisy. We are merely “skivvys” to the customer – not artists , so let’s not fool ourselves and try elevate ourselves the level of elite demi-gods. We as signmakers , whether we use brushes computers or lasers are merely serving the customer and accomplishing something for them, the sign is just a means , not the end. Who cares whether the output is pixellated on a banner if it serves it’s purpose to announce whatever and the customer is happy to get a result from it No one here knows what time and budget constraints were imposed on the original mnfgr and what he got to work with or what machinery he had to accomplish all this. The fact thats its not stellar quality means diddly squat to those that read it and took notice of its contents and responded , they didn’t NOT respond cos the lettering wasnt perfect!!!
It’s another story if you HAVE been given the wherewithall to do the job and turn out junk when you COULD have done better cos you couldn’t care and deliver less than the customer expects in a dishonest way. Those that do so do not survive in the long term.
Consumers are not cretins and realize soon that they are being ripped off , especially those in successful businesses as after all they did not get there by overpaying for doo-doo.
There obviously has to be a market for low cost quick signage of lesser quality and there is a market for the high priced superb stuff. Serving both ends is fine , the customer knows they can get whatever suits them from you . At the end of it all , you CAN show the consumer you can do better for a price and still cater for their immediate requirements.
Go turn away a customer cos their job doesnt meet your “standards” and see how much your reputation suffers – I would be pretty p—d off if it happened to me and I WAS!!!
Like the time when the Harley guys blew me off in not listening to my requirements for a bike and went on and on about investments and lifestyles and then further insulted me by telling me that perhaps a Harley was beyond my means and that perhaps I should look elsewhere.
I went out and bought a Honda cruiser at the same price and now tell this story to all that are willing to listen. I will never consider a Harley or deal with those elitist wallys EVER!!! -
Well said John and Rodney:D
Also reputation is everything. This doesn’t just mean having a reputation for producing high quality work but for being amiable and prepared to help out customers and give them what they want. To sneer at someones efforts and refuse to do work for them is also damaging to your reputation.
My comments earlier were meant to be light hearted and not to be taken too seriously, however I can’t be bothered with some of the elitist nonsense being spouted. 🙄
I say this because I have myself been condescending and aloof with some enquiries I have had in the past . On reflection I have regretted taking this stance as I feel it is a little bit cruel to the customer making the enquiry, and as a result, damaging to my reputation.
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Well posted, Rodney.
hey guys, think about this:
A restaurant producing decent food, perfectly healthy and edible, at reasonable cost. A high class, high quality, gourmet restaurant with a top name chef, impeccable food beautifully prepared, at a proportionally high cost.
Neither is right or wrong. They both serve a market dependent on their customer’s requirements.
Relate this to the discussion and you can see that there is room for both. Whoever used the banner with the original dates was obviously happy with it. It must have done the job intended as it was to be used again.
Of course the top chefs seem to bathe in snobbery and prima-donna attitudes. I’d hate to think the signmaking community was starting to.
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well said as always Rodney I think you take what we want to say and make it plain (disolve)
we always always do our best for our customers we try to move them on differant font’s etc. some won’t go that way , just stay with what they want they like it like that, and like the way we do business with them they may be the most boring, but they are some of the nicest staight down to earth people and they keep coming back because they know we will do our best for them and not rip them off
sorry to go on but it’s hard to condense what I meanLynn 😎
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A true sign conveys a message, that is its sole purpose, that is why its called a “sign” it does not need to be artistic, in truth, the sign itself should not be noticed, just the message it is trying to communicate.
We all tend to look back with rose tinted glasses, but in reallity few of us would want an outdoor lavy or a black and white TV. So why would most of us want to spend hours painting with a brush when there is not the demand for it. (yes I know there is but it is limited)
I always applaud anyone who has a skill or craft, skill is learnt, art is just to subjective. and monkeys have been known to produce it. Never saw a monkey build the frame to hold the “art” though.
Jills banner may have looked fine from a distance, I dont really know, but it must have worked for the owner, otherwise why would he want the dates changed?
Peter -
John and Rodney, as always you both put your points across very well, and I do agree with what you have both said. As for the pompus attitudes of some, I have met many signwriters that believe because they can paint they are at the top of the tree skill level wise, this elitist attitude is not one I agree with and think the majority of people on these boards are of the same opinion, we come here to share knowledge, and to improve ourselves as signmakers or signwriters.
Any sign however it is manufactured, takes skill to produce it, and because someone is self taught dose not make them an inferior signmaker (just look at the work posted on these boards) many of these people have great skills and fresh ideas, and I love looking at the work you all produce, does not matter to me if you are self taught or not, if you produce what your customer has asked for.
All our circumstances are different and I can spend more time than I should at times on a particular job because my business is very small. I understand your position John and you have a responsibility to your staff, but I bet when a customer wants a cheap sign from you you give them value for the pound they spend, as I would myself.
My original position however has not changed, but as I have said, I can afford this opinion because the way my business is run allows me to, if I was in the position that some of you are in I would probably have a different view. I don’t say that I am correct in holding this view and hope I never come across as one of the pompus ones, if I do then I apologize, and we must always remember as Peter said “a true sign conveys a message”
Andy
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I still wouldn’t produce crap like this.
I don’t consider myself an elitist, either.
It looks like garbage, pure and simple.
I did not make this thing, of course. I hope whoever did goes out of biz FAST and gets back their old job at McDonalds or wherever they worked before they purchased their printer and became a “sign maker” ahem.
Yes I am a sign PAINTER and damn proud of it.
But I make vinyl signs every day, too.
Mine are all legible both up close and from a distance.
This banner is for a church for whom I have made banners for 3 years.
Their sister church in Pittsburgh purchased it for last month’s Bible school.
It was passed on to my customer.
I have to put a patch over the bottom half to cover up the old dates and put new, LEGIBLE vinyl lettering over it.
Yes, I will use their crappy stencil font. That’s what they requested.
I do not treat my customers like cretins even if I think they are.
And most wouldn’t know a good sign if it came up and bit them in the ass.
It is my job to educate them and show them what will work for their business.
Most times they listen to me.
Sometimes it is not worth the effort, so I will charge them to clean up their shoddy Word-rendered clipart.
But there are some things I will never do:
All caps Brush Script
Non- Connected Brush Script
All caps Old English
Overcondensing ANYTHING
Improper use of color
Improper kerning
(basic things all sign makers should know, be they cowboy or elitist)
And if they are not willing to work with me, by all means they can go to some licky-sticky shop and spend their money. Life is too short.
Even if I have to feed my kids Kraft Dinner every night, I will not abandon my standards in search of the almighty dollar.
Even if I have to close my shop and get a real job.
So there.
:nana:
PS
I don’t think the 30-45 minutes it would take to clean up the artwork for this sign or to re-type the lettering would negate the firing of loyal employees due to inefficiant production.
The damage to one’s reputation in sending out stuff like this will put anyone out of business eventually.
My dad always said, “If you’re not gonna do it right, don’t do it at all.”
Just my 3¢.
Love….Jill -
Don’t think for a moment any one would describe you as elitist Jill, you are one of the most helpful contributors to these boards, I think we may have lost the plot along the way. In my opinion because a sign is cheep it dose not make it a bad sign, but rubbish is nothing else other than rubbish.
ps when I used the word elitist in my earlier post it was not directed at any one here, it was just an observation made through years of working with different signwriters whom I have met personally, the vast majority being very helpful and very modest, but there are always exceptions as with every profession.
andy
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Jill,
How big was the banner?
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The banner is 53″x82″ (sorry, dunno the metric)
Looks to be on 18-oz. material.
Here is a pic of the whole thing and also of the back,
maybe it will give a clue as to how it was made.
Love….Jill
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quote Jillbeans:I will not abandon my standards in search of the almighty dollar.
Even if I have to close my shop and get a real job.
So there.
:nana:
PS
I don’t think the 30-45 minutes it would take to clean up the artwork for this sign or to re-type the lettering would negate the firing of loyal employees due to inefficiant production.
The damage to one’s reputation in sending out stuff like this will put anyone out of business eventually.
My dad always said, “If you’re not gonna do it right, don’t do it at all.”
Just my 3¢.
Love….JillI am with you Jill,
I think some of the comments here have been a little ‘over the top’
I can, and will, still walk from this type of work. In truth tho, I’d work damn hard to convince the client that I could produce something better that the poor quality artwork they have supplied. I am presented with publisher and paint printouts everyday of the week, and I have always managed to convince them that I can do better, true, in some instances I have done the artwork for free, because their budget will not cover it, but at least the end result is something that we can both be happy with, and 9 out of ten times I have a customer for life. Yes I don’t have staff, and I can afford to keep my own standard, but to be called ‘a little bit pompous …. the smell of moralistic hypocrisy’ is overly offensive. I will continue to be critical of sign people that will take money for crap, when as Jill says, a few extra minutes could turn it into something far more presentable.
Yes, as some have said, there may be circumstances that we don’t know. They may have had a budget constraint, or whatever. But end of the day, they may have taken it because they knew no better, assuming that we are all only capable of crap. They may be happy to use it because they can not justify the expense of another one so quickly from the original purchase.
No one will convince me tho that putting this rubbish out in the market place has any positive value. If a sign shops salesmanship could not convince this client to go for something better, then it would be better to take a loss and cover the extra costs yourself. Anything would be better than being associated with this sort of trash.
I am not elitest either, and resent the comment. I am a professional who gives, I think, value for money. I see no value in this banner at all, not for the reputation of the sign shop, or for the end user.
End of the day tho, it is everyones individual decision what they do. I think Jill is well within her rights to be critical, and others here may object, which is their right too. I have not called anyone a cowboy either.
My dad always said if you want your job to be taken seriously, you got to take your customers seriously, if you want them to come back, you have to give them a reason to come back. If you value your customer base, you have to give your customer base value. Smart man my dad, It has been good advice
Cheers
Shane -
I think we’ll all have to agree to disagree. 😮
Can we all be friends again 😀
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quote rightsigns:I think we’ll all have to agree to disagree. 😮
Can we all be friends again 😀
Phil, my friends give me a harder time than this, I was just starting to feel wanted. Perhaps I have been married too long 😮
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Shane, if you were single I’d marry you myself.
You are my kind of guy.
Love….Jill -
Thanks Jill.
The reason I ask is that I would buy in a finished banner of that size for about £100, out of which perhaps £30 will be profit. I have to charge somewhere around £27 per hour to cover all costs and break even and, working on your estimate of 30 to 45 minutes to rectify the artwork it would therefore, in theory, cost me between £14 and £20 out of that £30.
Take off the other costs, such as my time discussing the job with the customer, artwork for the new dates, ordering, unpacking and inspection, invoicing and finally handing it over to the customer I think you would agree that there is no profit left. So why would I bother? I would be better off staying in bed, or at least getting the boys to give the workshop a lick of paint with that spare time.
You are absolutely right, nobody is going to lose a job over one banner, but it doesn’t end there does it? It’s just one more to add to the long list of other stuff we do cheap or free of charge for charities, local organisations generally, personal stuff for good customers and anybody else that thinks they shouldn’t pay full price. A line has to be drawn somewhere.
I agree on the Brush Script caps though. 😀
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Jill,
Never mind that Aussie. Marry me instead.
With your artistry and my business sense we would make a good partnership and should go far.
😀
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I actually used the words pompous , elitist and moral hypocrisy and I stand by what I said. If you want to be in business , the almighty dollar and profit is what counts , otherwise form a charitable institution. I take offense at those that intimate that because one follows normal and good business practice, tries to make a decent living and create work for others , one is the devil incarnate or worse. I’m pretty sure I wont be damned to hell on judgement day because I used brush script when asked to do so.
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…all caps brush script?
😕
Here’s the date change, still ugly, but at least readable.
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Wil I be stirring it up if I say that the dots after Mon and Thurs look awful and serve no purpose?
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quote :Will I be stirring it up
no i think you just put it in the blender
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Actually it is proper to put a period after an abbreviation. At least over in the States.
Looks ok to me.
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One of the easiest ways to make signs look a mess is to put in full punctuation. We are not dealing with literature but with high impact messages. If fact to make this sign clearer I would have preferred:
Mon 7th – Thurs 9th
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….heehee….it was laid out just as the customer specified….
just following orders like a good little sign gal.
I told you it was ugly.
You can’t polish a turd.
Love….Jill -
Ha- Ha!
Stunning work!!
After 4 pages on this topic and nearly starting a world war you’ve just compromised the principles you started with!
And I bet your customer is happy.
And I bet you took the money.
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Then they would show up on the wrong dates 🙂
As the Dates are the 8th thru the 11th. 😉
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quote johnchilds:Jill,Never mind that Aussie. Marry me instead.
With your artistry and my business sense we would make a good partnership and should go far.
😀
Don’t forget the “Harley” John, that should persuade Jill.
L J
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you’re right.
I misread it.
could it be that it’s not as clear as it should be? Perhaps not. I just tripped over the dots!!!
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quote pshaw:Ha- Ha!
Stunning work!!
After 4 pages on this topic and nearly starting a world war you’ve just compromised the principles you started with!
And I bet your customer is happy.
And I bet you took the money.
Carefull mate, Jillbeans is a lean mean killing machine. Just glad you said it and not me!
Peter -
I charged them my minimum fee of $25 because they are a church.
And I will have to wait two weeks to get a check from them because they are a church.
I can go to sleep tonight with a clear conscience knowing that what I did IS readable.
If I had initially made this banner, it would have looked good from the start.
Usually I do a 3’x10′ banner for them for $150, which is a discount price.
In this case, it was just a simple date change.
What bugged me most about the whole deal was the utter lack of concern by the initial sign maker (may the lice of 1,000 camels infest his jockey shorts)
and the fact that he charged A LOT of money for an inferior sign.
I personally don’t care if you think I am a poor business woman, pompous, elitist, if you dislike my abbreviations, or whatever.
I have been in the sign business 20 years now….I must be doing something right.
Love….Jill
PS
I prefer old Triumphs as the new Harleys don’t vibrate much. -
Personally I think the original banner looked better than the modified one,
but who am I to criticise, And for $25 I cant see what all the fuss has been about. We all know that in any trade you can get crepe.
Lets all agree to disagree. May it rest in piece.
Peter
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